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Welcome to the Be Good Podcast,

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where we explore the application of behavioral economics for good in order to nudge better business and better lives.

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Hi and welcome to this episode of Be Good,

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brought to you by BVA Notch Consulting,

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a global consultancy specializing in the application of behavioral science for successful behavior change.

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Every month we get to speak with a leader in the field of behavioral science,

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psychology and neuroscience in order to get to know more about them,

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their work and its application to emerging issues.

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My name is Eric Singler,

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founder and CEO of BVN Notch Consulting,

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and with me is my colleague,

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Suzanne Kirkendall,

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CEO of BVN Notch Consulting North America.

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Hi,

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Suzanne.

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Hi,

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Eric.

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I'm very happy to be back for another episode and delighted to be introducing today's guest,

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Nuala Walsh.

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Nuala is an award-winning non-executive director,

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behavioral scientist,

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TEDx speaker,

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and author.

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Named among the 100 most influential women in finance,

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she spent three decades in investment management at BlackRock,

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Merrill Lynch,

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and Standard Life Aberdeen as Chief Marketing Officer.

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Today,

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as CEO at MindEquity and a founding director of the Global Association of Behavioral Scientists,

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she advises on behavior change,

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culture,

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and reputation.

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Noala holds multiple appointments industry-wide.

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She is non-executive director at British and Irish Lions,

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president of Harvard Club of Ireland,

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chair of the Innocence Project London,

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council member at the Football Association,

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and former vice chair at UN Women UK.

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Her insights have been published in Forbes,

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Inc.,

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Psychology Today,

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Harvard Business Review,

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the Financial Times,

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Fox Business,

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and BBC.

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And very excitingly,

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Nuala has just published an amazing book called Tune In,

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How to Make Smarter Decisions in a Noisy World,

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which is going to be at the heart of our conversation today.

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Nuala,

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welcome to our Be Good podcast.

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Thank you very much.

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It is a huge pleasure to be here.

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So thanks a lot,

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Nuala,

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again for being with us today.

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Before talking about your amazing book,

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we would like to know a little more about...

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You and your career!

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I think you received a master degree in behavioral science and business studies alongside a degree in philosophy.

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Can you tell us about how you came to be interested in behavioral science in general,

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and maybe specifically about your interest in decision-making process?

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Sure,

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Eric.

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You're absolutely right.

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I've actually always been interested in human behavior.

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I just took a slightly circuitous route to get there.

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Because when I finished my first degree in Trinity,

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I actually studied forensic psychology straight after that.

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So that was always at the heart of what I wanted to do and was interested to do.

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And then I just had a 30 year career in the meantime before

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I went back to study at the London School of Economics to do the master's in behavioural science.

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But my interest,

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I think,

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was always there.

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So and it's since then that I've really applied the

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the insights that I learned there to business.

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And my thesis was actually on whistleblowing and the bystander effect.

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So that is not quite forensic psychology,

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but there is an element there,

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I think of that criminology.

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And then,

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as you say,

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when I set up my own consultancy,

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where I do advise firms,

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as you mentioned earlier on,

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and I sit on boards,

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I was able to see the mistakes that people made and they were preventable mistakes.

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So all of the theory,

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if you like,

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suddenly came into vogue and it became very clear why people were making these decisions and more importantly,

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how preventable they were.

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And that sort of led me to the point where,

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well,

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if mistakes are predictable,

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they're also preventable.

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And if only people knew the theory behind it.

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I think they would be much more equipped and enabled to prevent some of those errors.

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Could you share now with us if you have any mentors that had a particularly strong influence on you?

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Do you have maybe any researchers or other people who have played an influential role in your professional career and in your interest in behavioral science?

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quite a few I mean you know well you've interviewed most of them on this podcast I think there are so many researchers but I will say that in the beginning

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I attended a course in Harvard with

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Jennifer Lerner who is the expert on emotion and many other things but she teaches she teaches people how to be a decision architect and that was probably the first one that I had attended and and that was before I did the the master's in in the LSE so I sort of attribute

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that to the start and her influence there.

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And in fairness,

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she's been a supporter ever since,

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and she now sits on our board in Gabs as well.

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But I would also,

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I would pick out the LSE faculty,

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all of them,

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you know,

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I won't embarrass them by naming them,

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but they know who they are.

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And I think that group in particular,

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I think between them,

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they sparked or they created the spark,

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if you like.

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And that sort of,

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there are so many in this field,

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as you know,

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and they're all different.

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they're all really talented and they're experts in a particular area,

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which is probably why I've got 500,

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you know,

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references in the book.

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There's so many of them to pick out.

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But I think,

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whereas those individuals might have created this market,

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COVID provided the opportunity,

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believe it or not.

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So the timing and the chance to actually do it after so many years of being in the field and actually then applying the theory to people's reality.

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Fantastic.

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So,

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Nuala,

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as I mentioned earlier,

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your recent book,

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Tune In,

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How to Make Smarter Decisions in a Noisy World,

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was just published.

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Before we discuss the content of it,

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can you tell us more about the inspiration behind writing it?

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How did the idea for the book come to you?

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Sure.

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Well,

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Suzanne,

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I actually always wanted to write a book.

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I just wasn't sure what kind of book I was ever going to write.

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And people do say that there's a book in all of us.

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And I do think there is a book in all of us.

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We certainly all have enough stories and enough experience.

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education,

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if you like,

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to teach other people or lessons what we get right and what we get wrong.

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The output wasn't what I thought.

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Before I had done this master's,

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I was probably going to write a book along the lines of Mark McCormack's,

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what they didn't teach you in Harvard Business School,

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because that's the first one that I read when I started my career.

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And I always loved it and thought it was great.

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And I used it as a bit of a manual.

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So in my head,

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I always said,

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oh,

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I'll teach people the 50 tips and all the tricks and what you get wrong.

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So

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but when I did the master's,

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I learned something different.

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I guess it opened my mind to something different.

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So the output,

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the result is,

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of course,

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something that's completely rooted in science now,

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rather than me and my experience,

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which might have been the earlier book,

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if you like.

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So and then when I did that,

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when I saw all those excellent researchers and experts in this field,

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I guess I wanted to contribute in some way.

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So and that's why I thought.

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there are a lot of books on decision making.

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There are a lot of books on judgment.

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And that's why I suppose you ask,

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how did the idea come?

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That's why

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I deliberately went out of my way to try and find something that I thought was different.

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And I think this idea of deaf spots has not been covered elsewhere in the field.

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And I wanted to focus on something that wasn't just a list of biases or something that was just an academic reference.

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I wanted it to be really practical that people could,

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yes,

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it was rooted in science,

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but would be able to...

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use as a mnemonic and refer to it pretty easily when they were in these high stakes situations.

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So the idea,

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the actual final output,

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of course,

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it's never exactly as you start out.

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So the refinement.

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of this idea of being tuned in or tuned out came from that.

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And I,

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on all of the stories and the examples I have,

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I had to put a filter on at the very end,

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or at least halfway through to say,

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was this person tuned in or tuned out?

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Can I attribute this to deaf ear syndrome or a deaf spot,

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or they didn't listen,

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or they were motivated to mishear or hear something.

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And that was sort of my lens for,

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you know,

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keeping people in and taking them out.

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And that led me to this idea that tuning out,

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you know,

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is a hidden source of misinformation,

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but tuning in is a hidden source of opportunity.

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So it is quite,

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you know,

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binary,

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polarised in that way.

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And,

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you know,

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it came from that really.

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And then it was easy.

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It was easy to evidence why it mattered because,

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you know,

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these mistakes cost the average Fortune 500.

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company,

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250 million a year,

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at least,

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I can give you a really long list.

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We could be here for an hour talking about the mistakes and the evidence as to why people's bad decisions are so critical,

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particularly when people hold power.

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Absolutely.

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Yeah.

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So that title,

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Tuning In,

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makes so much sense.

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Can you tell us more about your research method?

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You talked a lot about all of your references,

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but also all of your experiences.

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Can you tell us how you combine those two?

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Well,

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I didn't do RCTs and somebody once asked me,

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you know,

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is this all based on primary research?

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Well,

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it isn't primary research in that sense of RCTs.

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It is a blend of primary and secondary.

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Primary is my own research,

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but it's deliberately a spectrum.

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There's a heavy reliance on practical case studies,

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as in real life case studies,

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supplemented by all of these behavioural science experiments.

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And so that's why I do have an index that spans 25 pages,

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because it is,

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I think Eric said earlier on,

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it is very rich in terms of its content.

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So the conceptual framework is rooted in science.

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And so are all of the key concepts.

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So it was a blend.

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So I was more comfortable with that rather than going out,

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starting and making it based on one particular.

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experiment and then I exploded it into a theory.

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I wanted it to be a compendium of the best of other people's thinking as well,

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but for me to add a slightly different slant to it,

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if that makes sense.

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Absolutely.

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That makes total sense.

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00:11:05.665 --> 00:11:09.179
And I know you've given us a little bit of a preview of some of the important concepts,

268
00:11:09.259 --> 00:11:12.674
but before Eric asks you more details about all your great frameworks,

269
00:11:13.116 --> 00:11:14.241
can you tell our listeners,

270
00:11:14.321 --> 00:11:15.968
what is the one key takeaway?

271
00:11:16.049 --> 00:11:18.129
What would the headline be of your book?

272
00:11:19.586 --> 00:11:23.996
Probably that what you hear is as important as what you see.

273
00:11:24.658 --> 00:11:30.196
And that we're more at risk than ever of tuning out the important voices and rushing to judgment.

274
00:11:30.276 --> 00:11:39.244
But if you at least remember the perimeter is traps and the need to tune in and to consciously think about who and what you're tuning into,

275
00:11:39.686 --> 00:11:44.182
I think you stand out in your field rather than lose out or miss out.

276
00:11:45.280 --> 00:11:45.501
Okay,

277
00:11:45.541 --> 00:11:45.902
Nuala,

278
00:11:46.382 --> 00:11:54.138
now it's time to delve into the challenge of decision-making from an individual perspective.

279
00:11:54.218 --> 00:11:54.739
But before,

280
00:11:54.779 --> 00:11:56.904
I'd like us to discuss what you call,

281
00:11:56.964 --> 00:11:57.305
I think,

282
00:11:57.325 --> 00:12:03.038
the external context within which our decisions are made.

283
00:12:03.891 --> 00:12:04.472
And first,

284
00:12:04.732 --> 00:12:10.399
can you tell us why it's so tough to make good decisions in what,

285
00:12:10.560 --> 00:12:10.820
again,

286
00:12:10.880 --> 00:12:14.845
you call today's noisy world?

287
00:12:15.245 --> 00:12:18.850
What are the main factors that shape our judgment?

288
00:12:19.511 --> 00:12:19.711
Sure.

289
00:12:20.232 --> 00:12:20.372
Well,

290
00:12:20.572 --> 00:12:22.515
and I think even just before we mention that,

291
00:12:22.635 --> 00:12:22.816
Eric,

292
00:12:22.816 --> 00:12:28.624
it's probably just useful to let people know that tuning in is the solution to the problem of tuning out.

293
00:12:29.185 --> 00:12:32.850
And it is a combination of two things that make us tune in.

294
00:12:33.134 --> 00:12:33.836
or tune out.

295
00:12:34.257 --> 00:12:35.240
One is the context,

296
00:12:35.461 --> 00:12:36.625
the external context,

297
00:12:36.866 --> 00:12:38.190
and the second thing is our cognition.

298
00:12:38.750 --> 00:12:41.960
So looking at the external environment,

299
00:12:42.542 --> 00:12:43.987
I point to four factors.

300
00:12:44.027 --> 00:12:44.147
Now,

301
00:12:44.268 --> 00:12:44.990
I'm sure there are more,

302
00:12:45.170 --> 00:12:50.150
but I think these four in particular are increasing our vulnerability to error.

303
00:12:50.770 --> 00:12:52.278
The first one is it's a speedy world.

304
00:12:52.620 --> 00:12:55.573
And I think we all know that we live in this fast-paced,

305
00:12:55.714 --> 00:12:56.837
frantic lifestyle,

306
00:12:57.118 --> 00:13:00.950
but that accelerates our speed of making decisions and our short-term

307
00:13:01.216 --> 00:13:02.119
our short-term thinking.

308
00:13:02.540 --> 00:13:09.499
And this whole ecosystem that we operate in today amplifies that probability of making fast choices,

309
00:13:09.620 --> 00:13:12.027
which aren't necessarily the best choices.

310
00:13:12.589 --> 00:13:13.752
The second one is data.

311
00:13:14.093 --> 00:13:16.642
And we know that there is excessive data,

312
00:13:16.863 --> 00:13:18.749
and we also know that it's overwhelming.

313
00:13:19.051 --> 00:13:20.455
Yet it is our new normal,

314
00:13:20.475 --> 00:13:24.829
and we're forced to make decisions in that noisy sort of context.

315
00:13:25.330 --> 00:13:27.158
So there's plenty of evidence to that.

316
00:13:27.158 --> 00:13:27.319
I mean,

317
00:13:27.360 --> 00:13:28.386
Microsoft find that,

318
00:13:28.668 --> 00:13:29.594
I think it's 68%.

319
00:13:30.538 --> 00:13:35.574
employees just don't even have enough uninterrupted time for them to do their jobs.

320
00:13:36.275 --> 00:13:38.044
There's a third layer of which I've introduced,

321
00:13:38.084 --> 00:13:39.109
which is quite different.

322
00:13:39.431 --> 00:13:41.742
And I don't think people particularly think about it.

323
00:13:42.084 --> 00:13:43.129
And that's the difference between,

324
00:13:43.490 --> 00:13:43.711
you know,

325
00:13:43.772 --> 00:13:44.314
the arrow words,

326
00:13:44.354 --> 00:13:45.738
what we see and what we hear.

327
00:13:46.160 --> 00:13:46.280
So

328
00:13:46.682 --> 00:13:48.588
I argue it's a very visual world,

329
00:13:48.828 --> 00:13:50.052
more so than before.

330
00:13:50.414 --> 00:13:51.397
And because it's visual,

331
00:13:51.437 --> 00:13:55.110
what we see dominates and skews our interpretation.

332
00:13:55.171 --> 00:13:58.414
So you only need to think about Instagram or first impressions.

333
00:13:59.025 --> 00:14:02.956
we see what we want and we don't consider enough what we hear.

334
00:14:03.117 --> 00:14:03.297
And,

335
00:14:03.819 --> 00:14:04.059
you know,

336
00:14:04.059 --> 00:14:07.210
one example of that can be stereotyping from,

337
00:14:07.290 --> 00:14:07.531
you know,

338
00:14:07.571 --> 00:14:09.618
hiring to refereeing matches or,

339
00:14:09.799 --> 00:14:10.039
you know,

340
00:14:10.120 --> 00:14:11.164
even awarding loans.

341
00:14:11.566 --> 00:14:13.896
So that's a problem when it comes to misjudgment.

342
00:14:14.177 --> 00:14:15.282
And the last one is the fact that,

343
00:14:15.342 --> 00:14:15.563
you know,

344
00:14:15.603 --> 00:14:16.446
binary thinking.

345
00:14:16.728 --> 00:14:18.354
We live in a polarised world.

346
00:14:18.615 --> 00:14:23.874
Half the world is going to vote this year and people are becoming more and more entrenched in their thinking.

347
00:14:24.215 --> 00:14:26.596
So we think in these polarised ways.

348
00:14:27.185 --> 00:14:32.302
And some of these binary classifications are just embedded in our systems and structures.

349
00:14:32.322 --> 00:14:32.543
I mean,

350
00:14:32.543 --> 00:14:33.368
if you're a marketeer,

351
00:14:33.428 --> 00:14:35.700
you segment your customers and it's very sensible,

352
00:14:35.780 --> 00:14:36.881
but we still do it.

353
00:14:37.122 --> 00:14:38.167
If you look at your colleagues,

354
00:14:38.448 --> 00:14:38.790
you know,

355
00:14:38.790 --> 00:14:40.156
in the BVA nudge unit,

356
00:14:40.558 --> 00:14:44.955
do you think of your colleagues as introverts or extroverts or high or low potential,

357
00:14:45.537 --> 00:14:45.778
you know,

358
00:14:46.019 --> 00:14:47.622
sporty or academic?

359
00:14:48.283 --> 00:14:49.167
But when we do that,

360
00:14:49.227 --> 00:14:50.011
as you well know,

361
00:14:50.473 --> 00:14:52.660
we narrow our perspective when we think in this way.

362
00:14:52.742 --> 00:14:54.414
So despite...

363
00:14:54.944 --> 00:14:58.396
the advances of the 21st century with data and all of these things,

364
00:14:58.918 --> 00:15:03.113
the odds are stacked against good judgment in this high-speed visual world.

365
00:15:03.113 --> 00:15:04.499
So when I work with my clients,

366
00:15:04.760 --> 00:15:05.563
as I'm sure you do,

367
00:15:06.144 --> 00:15:12.766
I find that these factors just diminish the time that the people have available to devote to tuning in and,

368
00:15:13.127 --> 00:15:13.368
you know,

369
00:15:13.449 --> 00:15:16.643
reinterpreting different conversations and not making this time,

370
00:15:17.084 --> 00:15:17.325
you know,

371
00:15:17.445 --> 00:15:19.714
is a mistake and is a judgment killer.

372
00:15:20.076 --> 00:15:20.216
Yeah.

373
00:15:20.216 --> 00:15:21.883
There is this question,

374
00:15:22.266 --> 00:15:24.003
you mentioned this judgment.

375
00:15:24.802 --> 00:15:25.283
killers.

376
00:15:25.404 --> 00:15:28.031
And could you again explain for our listeners,

377
00:15:29.214 --> 00:15:33.806
I think it is three main judgment killers that you call blind spot,

378
00:15:34.328 --> 00:15:36.253
deaf spot and dumb spot.

379
00:15:37.015 --> 00:15:37.155
Well,

380
00:15:37.215 --> 00:15:37.556
indeed,

381
00:15:37.656 --> 00:15:37.877
Eric,

382
00:15:37.897 --> 00:15:41.108
and I've combined them and I've called them the trilogy of error.

383
00:15:42.071 --> 00:15:44.439
Sometimes I've called them the trilogy of terror,

384
00:15:45.000 --> 00:15:46.387
if you get them wrong as well.

385
00:15:46.749 --> 00:15:48.196
And you can guess what they are.

386
00:15:48.438 --> 00:15:48.679
I mean,

387
00:15:49.061 --> 00:15:51.059
you know what the psychological blind spots are.

388
00:15:51.217 --> 00:15:53.631
they don't work in isolation on our judgment.

389
00:15:54.291 --> 00:15:55.691
And so you've heard of those,

390
00:15:55.971 --> 00:15:58.571
but people haven't really heard of death spots,

391
00:15:58.852 --> 00:15:59.991
but they do exist actually,

392
00:16:00.091 --> 00:16:01.971
because there's been a psychologist.

393
00:16:03.075 --> 00:16:05.927
that discovered these or certainly wrote about these in the

394
00:16:06.770 --> 00:16:06.891
1960s.

395
00:16:07.833 --> 00:16:11.731
But it refers to the failure to interpret what people say.

396
00:16:12.092 --> 00:16:12.596
In the same way,

397
00:16:12.677 --> 00:16:14.271
blind spots is about what people see.

398
00:16:15.292 --> 00:16:15.533
And then,

399
00:16:15.513 --> 00:16:15.835
of course,

400
00:16:15.875 --> 00:16:18.531
dumb spots is about what people hear or don't hear.

401
00:16:18.891 --> 00:16:21.570
And this is when people typically don't speak up.

402
00:16:21.751 --> 00:16:23.399
Because if someone remains silent,

403
00:16:23.720 --> 00:16:24.504
by definition,

404
00:16:24.865 --> 00:16:26.151
you can't hear their voices.

405
00:16:26.731 --> 00:16:27.134
And again,

406
00:16:27.375 --> 00:16:31.391
the challenge is that we just don't think about this trilogy when we're under pressure.

407
00:16:31.902 --> 00:16:33.687
or in uncertainty or crisis.

408
00:16:33.707 --> 00:16:36.696
But I thought it was quite a nice way to pull together,

409
00:16:36.957 --> 00:16:37.539
you know,

410
00:16:37.579 --> 00:16:39.226
the fact that there is this trilogy out there.

411
00:16:39.226 --> 00:16:43.061
And even if people think in their own way that these exist,

412
00:16:43.342 --> 00:16:43.783
again,

413
00:16:44.264 --> 00:16:57.737
it's a simple way for people to think twice and try and at least pause and make more measured decisions when they are under pressure or in crisis or uncertainty.

414
00:16:57.938 --> 00:17:00.879
So the skill is to reinterpret what people hear.

415
00:17:01.556 --> 00:17:01.836
Yes,

416
00:17:01.916 --> 00:17:07.502
we have been lucky to interview some weeks ago for the Human Advantage,

417
00:17:07.542 --> 00:17:09.904
but also for the podcast,

418
00:17:10.064 --> 00:17:12.726
Amy Edmondson on cycle digital safety,

419
00:17:13.167 --> 00:17:13.527
which is,

420
00:17:13.607 --> 00:17:14.028
I think,

421
00:17:14.748 --> 00:17:21.915
one key point which makes within an organization very difficult to make a smart decision.

422
00:17:22.742 --> 00:17:51.539
absolutely and and and she she is the the leader in that field and she's absolutely right because when there is no psychological safety it yes there are dumb spots but actually if when there's no safety people tune out so people tune out of the voices that matter and they and they don't speak up so they develop this combination of a blind spot and and a death spot so it's a combination so sometimes they come together sometimes it might be one that dominates more than the other but together they are lethal and they are these judgment killers

423
00:17:52.817 --> 00:18:03.194
You also highlight that interpretation is also a challenge because we can't trust what we hear.

424
00:18:03.695 --> 00:18:06.101
Can you tell us more about this big gap,

425
00:18:06.582 --> 00:18:08.327
which is classical in behavioral science,

426
00:18:08.347 --> 00:18:11.214
between what is said and what is heard?

427
00:18:11.655 --> 00:18:14.986
Generally in behavioral science it is between intent and behavior,

428
00:18:15.307 --> 00:18:17.635
here it is between said and heard.

429
00:18:18.531 --> 00:18:18.712
Yes,

430
00:18:18.772 --> 00:18:21.736
and this could be a very long answer as well,

431
00:18:21.876 --> 00:18:22.097
Eric,

432
00:18:22.177 --> 00:18:24.560
because you can bring into this,

433
00:18:25.101 --> 00:18:25.341
you know,

434
00:18:25.421 --> 00:18:26.683
cultural factors,

435
00:18:26.723 --> 00:18:26.984
you know,

436
00:18:27.344 --> 00:18:28.966
what's heard versus what's said,

437
00:18:29.167 --> 00:18:29.828
language,

438
00:18:30.208 --> 00:18:31.130
euphemisms,

439
00:18:31.250 --> 00:18:32.131
tone of voice.

440
00:18:32.611 --> 00:18:32.732
So

441
00:18:33.154 --> 00:18:36.331
I was very conscious when I was writing this bit that it could be very long.

442
00:18:36.791 --> 00:18:41.527
So what I was keen to make sure that people didn't think of this book as a book about listening,

443
00:18:41.567 --> 00:18:42.651
because it's not about listening.

444
00:18:43.112 --> 00:18:45.271
It's about interpreting what you hear.

445
00:18:45.372 --> 00:18:46.631
It's a second order effect.

446
00:18:46.751 --> 00:18:48.011
So we all can listen.

447
00:18:48.316 --> 00:19:07.961
and here but we don't always choose to reinterpret we take things at face value we um jump to conclusions we misinterpret you know what we see we encode we don't decode so that's an important differentiation so this is about the difference between what you see what you sorry what's heard and and what's what's what's

448
00:19:08.062 --> 00:19:17.514
meant is also the extent to which you're willing to spend some bit of time decoding and it could be people's agendas it could be anything it could be you know people people's intent

449
00:19:18.189 --> 00:19:19.378
as you mentioned earlier on.

450
00:19:19.760 --> 00:19:20.998
But when you don't do it,

451
00:19:21.480 --> 00:19:22.518
you only have to think of,

452
00:19:22.819 --> 00:19:23.001
you know,

453
00:19:23.263 --> 00:19:24.899
people just take things at face value.

454
00:19:25.279 --> 00:19:25.422
I mean,

455
00:19:25.422 --> 00:19:26.219
you can look at genocide,

456
00:19:26.619 --> 00:19:31.719
you can look at misinterpreted military instructions because people didn't think about what they heard,

457
00:19:31.799 --> 00:19:33.358
they just did and obeyed.

458
00:19:33.920 --> 00:19:34.042
Or,

459
00:19:34.387 --> 00:19:34.630
you know,

460
00:19:34.691 --> 00:19:35.239
mishearing.

461
00:19:35.480 --> 00:19:41.719
I think there were some very powerful examples of people who genuinely just accidentally misheard,

462
00:19:42.243 --> 00:19:42.486
you know,

463
00:19:42.567 --> 00:19:43.539
air traffic controllers.

464
00:19:43.699 --> 00:19:44.695
Now that's not...

465
00:19:45.163 --> 00:19:49.519
I should pause and reinterpret because you might be in an emergency situation and you might not have time to do that.

466
00:19:49.579 --> 00:19:50.309
But in many cases,

467
00:19:50.330 --> 00:19:50.959
there is time.

468
00:19:51.699 --> 00:19:56.039
So you might not diagnose an unusual illness.

469
00:19:56.260 --> 00:19:59.919
You just have jumped to conclusions and rushed to judgment because we live in this.

470
00:20:00.522 --> 00:20:00.963
noisy,

471
00:20:01.164 --> 00:20:01.946
fast-paced,

472
00:20:01.986 --> 00:20:02.708
data-filmed,

473
00:20:03.070 --> 00:20:04.013
overwhelming world,

474
00:20:04.073 --> 00:20:05.738
and we just don't have time to slow down.

475
00:20:06.178 --> 00:20:06.581
I mean,

476
00:20:06.601 --> 00:20:09.258
aren't we all still catching up with yesterday and the day before?

477
00:20:09.958 --> 00:20:12.867
People can barely keep up with yesterday,

478
00:20:13.769 --> 00:20:16.337
and it's just this cycle that keeps going.

479
00:20:16.357 --> 00:20:20.751
And that's why I outline a number of different solutions to boost interpretation,

480
00:20:21.795 --> 00:20:23.798
which are all in the third part of the book.

481
00:20:25.153 --> 00:20:25.554
Excellent.

482
00:20:25.614 --> 00:20:29.565
So we've covered the external challenges for cognition.

483
00:20:29.846 --> 00:20:31.410
Now let's talk about the internal.

484
00:20:32.699 --> 00:20:36.896
You mentioned in your book that there are structural traps that lead us to making poor decisions,

485
00:20:36.896 --> 00:20:37.418
of course.

486
00:20:38.000 --> 00:20:41.736
And you mentioned the great acronym that you've come up to summarize these traps,

487
00:20:41.836 --> 00:20:43.061
which is perimeters.

488
00:20:43.362 --> 00:20:44.125
And for our listeners,

489
00:20:44.125 --> 00:20:46.495
I'm going to walk you through that acronym real quick.

490
00:20:47.276 --> 00:20:49.762
So each letter is a specific trap or bias.

491
00:20:50.063 --> 00:20:52.268
P of perimeters is for power.

492
00:20:52.769 --> 00:20:53.751
E is for ego.

493
00:20:54.513 --> 00:20:55.416
R is risk.

494
00:20:56.019 --> 00:20:57.104
I is identity.

495
00:20:57.968 --> 00:20:59.094
M is memory.

496
00:20:59.948 --> 00:21:00.068
E,

497
00:21:00.830 --> 00:21:01.231
ethics.

498
00:21:01.872 --> 00:21:01.992
T,

499
00:21:02.854 --> 00:21:03.315
time.

500
00:21:04.056 --> 00:21:04.176
E,

501
00:21:04.777 --> 00:21:05.258
emotion.

502
00:21:06.401 --> 00:21:06.521
R,

503
00:21:06.881 --> 00:21:07.623
relationships.

504
00:21:07.924 --> 00:21:09.226
And S is stories.

505
00:21:10.347 --> 00:21:12.811
So before we get into the details of some of these traps,

506
00:21:13.011 --> 00:21:13.372
Nuala,

507
00:21:13.492 --> 00:21:17.039
could you give us an overview around the major levels that you describe,

508
00:21:17.059 --> 00:21:18.401
which are individual biases,

509
00:21:18.521 --> 00:21:19.523
organizational traps,

510
00:21:19.603 --> 00:21:21.126
and those related to society?

511
00:21:22.741 --> 00:21:22.942
Yes.

512
00:21:23.102 --> 00:21:24.426
And to be honest,

513
00:21:24.667 --> 00:21:28.738
really the point there is that this can affect people at every level.

514
00:21:29.058 --> 00:21:30.302
It can be individual,

515
00:21:30.382 --> 00:21:32.369
organizational or societal.

516
00:21:32.650 --> 00:21:35.078
So an individual bias is probably fairly obvious.

517
00:21:35.158 --> 00:21:37.771
It relates to the ones for which you are responsible for.

518
00:21:38.173 --> 00:21:39.198
And it could be ego,

519
00:21:39.338 --> 00:21:40.182
it could be any of these,

520
00:21:40.182 --> 00:21:43.138
but ego is one that is particularly referred to an individual.

521
00:21:43.658 --> 00:21:46.229
So an organization bias affects the collective.

522
00:21:46.269 --> 00:21:47.815
So you talked about Amy Edmondson,

523
00:21:47.835 --> 00:21:50.978
it could be a conservative or a risk-taking culture.

524
00:21:51.389 --> 00:21:51.510
So,

525
00:21:51.771 --> 00:21:52.031
you know,

526
00:21:52.031 --> 00:21:52.292
risk,

527
00:21:52.493 --> 00:21:56.666
but risk can also be an individual bias and it can be an organizational bias based on the culture.

528
00:21:57.227 --> 00:21:59.235
So and then from a societal perspective,

529
00:21:59.456 --> 00:22:01.786
the traps can be cause and effect.

530
00:22:02.108 --> 00:22:03.160
So stories is one,

531
00:22:03.160 --> 00:22:03.666
for example.

532
00:22:04.066 --> 00:22:07.815
So a legend and a folklore of a particular country and,

533
00:22:07.835 --> 00:22:08.075
you know,

534
00:22:08.116 --> 00:22:10.240
the Loch Ness Monster or crying statues,

535
00:22:10.361 --> 00:22:11.443
whether it's true or not,

536
00:22:11.764 --> 00:22:12.646
people believe them.

537
00:22:12.746 --> 00:22:13.926
And this affects your judgment.

538
00:22:14.487 --> 00:22:16.786
And then the traps can hit all three levels.

539
00:22:17.369 --> 00:22:17.490
So,

540
00:22:17.611 --> 00:22:18.096
for example,

541
00:22:18.096 --> 00:22:19.246
if you take following the crowd.

542
00:22:19.560 --> 00:22:19.781
You know,

543
00:22:19.781 --> 00:22:20.682
that's an individual,

544
00:22:20.702 --> 00:22:21.003
does it?

545
00:22:21.243 --> 00:22:22.646
An organisation certainly does it.

546
00:22:22.967 --> 00:22:26.434
And societies and different groups also do it as well.

547
00:22:26.895 --> 00:22:28.418
So the point is that.

548
00:22:29.601 --> 00:22:33.548
And I deliberately interspersed in the book examples that hit all three,

549
00:22:33.869 --> 00:22:39.018
so that people wouldn't just say or wouldn't just think this only applies to an individual's decision making.

550
00:22:39.499 --> 00:22:39.881
It can be,

551
00:22:40.181 --> 00:22:40.422
you know,

552
00:22:40.422 --> 00:22:41.004
a national,

553
00:22:41.245 --> 00:22:41.365
well,

554
00:22:41.686 --> 00:22:45.698
national leaders making decisions for countries or organisation leaders.

555
00:22:46.118 --> 00:22:48.645
And then it's the collective because the crowd decides as well,

556
00:22:49.026 --> 00:22:49.767
in many respects,

557
00:22:49.787 --> 00:22:50.810
individuals in the crowd,

558
00:22:51.091 --> 00:22:52.474
but the crowd as a collective,

559
00:22:53.357 --> 00:22:53.798
as you know.

560
00:22:54.488 --> 00:22:54.949
For sure.

561
00:22:55.531 --> 00:23:00.602
And so why do you think each of these traps is dangerous for making smart decisions?

562
00:23:01.307 --> 00:23:03.014
Because the evidence is there.

563
00:23:03.014 --> 00:23:03.215
I mean,

564
00:23:03.335 --> 00:23:03.857
individually,

565
00:23:03.877 --> 00:23:04.419
they're dangerous,

566
00:23:04.440 --> 00:23:05.022
but collectively,

567
00:23:05.362 --> 00:23:07.711
they're lethal because we repeat them.

568
00:23:08.072 --> 00:23:10.401
And I think the evidence speaks for itself,

569
00:23:10.501 --> 00:23:13.330
whether you're talking about scams,

570
00:23:13.350 --> 00:23:14.815
whether you're talking about scandals,

571
00:23:15.236 --> 00:23:16.119
missed signals,

572
00:23:16.359 --> 00:23:17.182
whether it's 9-11,

573
00:23:17.622 --> 00:23:18.426
human error.

574
00:23:18.847 --> 00:23:19.791
There are so many examples,

575
00:23:19.872 --> 00:23:20.374
fines,

576
00:23:20.414 --> 00:23:21.177
misconduct,

577
00:23:21.237 --> 00:23:22.302
miscarriages of justice,

578
00:23:22.865 --> 00:23:25.982
because the problem is we don't notice or reinterpret what we hear.

579
00:23:26.422 --> 00:23:28.082
And so you have all of these examples.

580
00:23:29.271 --> 00:23:52.877
and as we've said it's a combination of the environment and us they're so hidden we don't notice them we're so biased we don't think we make them we think we're great decision makers we don't even question whether making mistakes yet as I said history repeats itself we still get scammed businesses fail you know ego traps predominate all the time and we miss these signals and tune out so by definition it's

581
00:23:52.957 --> 00:23:56.302
always going to be a problem for people in their decision making

582
00:23:57.145 --> 00:23:59.331
And then for each of those traps in the book,

583
00:23:59.451 --> 00:24:03.262
you explain the specific mechanics that can lead us to making those poor decisions.

584
00:24:03.943 --> 00:24:05.545
So one example for our listeners,

585
00:24:05.585 --> 00:24:06.406
the first trap,

586
00:24:06.486 --> 00:24:08.329
you describe the power-based traps,

587
00:24:08.509 --> 00:24:11.092
and you mentioned six different biases that come into play,

588
00:24:11.172 --> 00:24:13.035
which include the authority bias,

589
00:24:13.135 --> 00:24:14.096
halo effect,

590
00:24:14.537 --> 00:24:15.498
champion bias,

591
00:24:15.719 --> 00:24:16.800
the contrast effect,

592
00:24:16.820 --> 00:24:18.122
and the just world hypothesis.

593
00:24:19.024 --> 00:24:23.002
Can you explain some of those biases and illustrate them for our listeners with some real-life examples?

594
00:24:23.927 --> 00:24:24.107
Yes,

595
00:24:24.208 --> 00:24:26.654
and each of them do have quite a few.

596
00:24:27.496 --> 00:24:29.201
I was never short of an example,

597
00:24:29.381 --> 00:24:29.762
Suzanne.

598
00:24:30.244 --> 00:24:31.912
So is that a good thing or a bad thing?

599
00:24:31.912 --> 00:24:33.341
It was probably a good thing if you're a writer,

600
00:24:33.362 --> 00:24:34.447
it's a bad thing for reality.

601
00:24:35.069 --> 00:24:37.516
So even if I just take narrow focus.

602
00:24:37.917 --> 00:24:42.471
So narrow focus occurs when we're too goal-oriented and we're in search of power.

603
00:24:42.692 --> 00:24:45.503
So I should say that power-related traps are all,

604
00:24:45.764 --> 00:24:47.712
it doesn't mean you have power or haven't got power.

605
00:24:48.013 --> 00:24:50.644
These are traps that occur when you're chasing power,

606
00:24:50.784 --> 00:24:51.852
afraid of losing power.

607
00:24:51.852 --> 00:24:53.246
They're power-related.

608
00:24:53.776 --> 00:24:56.410
rather than being about I have power or I don't have power.

609
00:24:57.829 --> 00:25:06.868
Anyone at any level can have a narrow focus when they're too goal-oriented in search of power or trying to protect the power that they already have.

610
00:25:07.328 --> 00:25:10.028
And they make dangerously damaging decisions.

611
00:25:10.248 --> 00:25:11.471
So even if you look back at,

612
00:25:11.812 --> 00:25:13.296
I don't know if you remember in 2016,

613
00:25:13.296 --> 00:25:14.058
Wells Fargo,

614
00:25:14.178 --> 00:25:18.128
when they knowingly fabricated these millions of fake customer accounts.

615
00:25:18.930 --> 00:25:20.814
The leaders were goal-oriented,

616
00:25:20.974 --> 00:25:23.981
had a narrow focus in search of industry power,

617
00:25:24.422 --> 00:25:27.128
and they instructed their teams to achieve eight accounts.

618
00:25:27.500 --> 00:25:28.383
per customer.

619
00:25:28.704 --> 00:25:29.347
And the CEO,

620
00:25:29.568 --> 00:25:31.816
when he was interviewed by the Senate Banking Committee,

621
00:25:32.316 --> 00:25:32.476
you know,

622
00:25:32.456 --> 00:25:37.532
it just explained that eight rhymes with great and compounded by ego.

623
00:25:38.394 --> 00:25:39.498
He blamed his employees,

624
00:25:39.558 --> 00:25:42.010
not that toxic culture that we were talking about earlier.

625
00:25:42.070 --> 00:25:47.068
So leadership in that situation turned a deaf ear to these stress sales teams.

626
00:25:47.489 --> 00:25:47.690
And,

627
00:25:48.111 --> 00:25:48.372
you know,

628
00:25:48.713 --> 00:25:49.536
at the end of the day,

629
00:25:49.937 --> 00:25:56.275
it cost the bank three billion and a CEO's career because people accept the story that they want to hear and they turn.

630
00:25:56.564 --> 00:25:57.588
a deaf ear to the rest.

631
00:25:57.628 --> 00:26:03.431
Another one which is pretty obvious is maybe authority bias when we obey the person in charge and don't speak up enough.

632
00:26:03.873 --> 00:26:05.138
So lots of examples there.

633
00:26:05.359 --> 00:26:07.968
You could take Theranos with Elizabeth Holmes,

634
00:26:08.269 --> 00:26:14.372
where people knew that the Edison finger prick technology was based on a lie and the majority stayed silent.

635
00:26:14.412 --> 00:26:16.360
Some did speak up and that's how it came to light,

636
00:26:16.741 --> 00:26:19.692
but the majority for too long didn't speak up.

637
00:26:20.193 --> 00:26:22.080
And then you have maybe the just world hypothesis.

638
00:26:22.721 --> 00:26:26.316
Which happens when we trust that good people get rewarded and evil punished.

639
00:26:26.437 --> 00:26:27.383
And when you do that,

640
00:26:27.625 --> 00:26:29.256
you typically lose power.

641
00:26:30.140 --> 00:26:33.896
So it doesn't bear out in reality because we often over trust the system.

642
00:26:33.956 --> 00:26:43.556
And an example there might be the wrongfully convicted or the British post office example where employees trust that justice would serve them.

643
00:26:44.356 --> 00:26:47.916
But yet it didn't because they believed in a just world.

644
00:26:47.936 --> 00:26:48.723
And when you do that,

645
00:26:49.308 --> 00:26:50.096
you are naive.

646
00:26:50.156 --> 00:26:51.334
Your view is slightly narrow.

647
00:26:52.056 --> 00:26:58.596
You might also see it in M&A where the hardworking employee thinks that they're going to get noticed or rewarded or promoted.

648
00:26:59.109 --> 00:26:59.230
But,

649
00:26:59.370 --> 00:26:59.611
you know,

650
00:27:00.353 --> 00:27:05.668
they naively overlook and don't decode the messages in that situation.

651
00:27:06.229 --> 00:27:11.261
So they trust what they hear and they don't reinterpret sentences,

652
00:27:11.522 --> 00:27:12.143
statements,

653
00:27:12.223 --> 00:27:12.925
promises,

654
00:27:13.166 --> 00:27:13.386
you know,

655
00:27:13.386 --> 00:27:14.088
for politics.

656
00:27:14.628 --> 00:27:16.176
So we know that thinking is hard.

657
00:27:16.176 --> 00:27:17.302
And I think as Carl Jung says,

658
00:27:17.342 --> 00:27:18.548
that's why most people judge.

659
00:27:18.908 --> 00:27:19.555
So these occur,

660
00:27:19.818 --> 00:27:20.708
these occur all the time.

661
00:27:20.748 --> 00:27:21.671
But the power related ones,

662
00:27:21.692 --> 00:27:21.932
I think,

663
00:27:22.374 --> 00:27:26.128
are fascinating because we all seek power to some extent.

664
00:27:26.249 --> 00:27:26.592
And again,

665
00:27:26.633 --> 00:27:28.288
it depends on your definition of power.

666
00:27:28.879 --> 00:27:29.019
But,

667
00:27:29.099 --> 00:27:29.340
you know,

668
00:27:29.861 --> 00:27:33.569
you could be a parent and seek power in the house or over the children,

669
00:27:34.231 --> 00:27:36.556
or a professor or a politician or a president.

670
00:27:37.077 --> 00:27:38.456
So this one is really pervasive.

671
00:27:39.836 --> 00:27:40.417
And unfortunately,

672
00:27:40.437 --> 00:27:43.745
we don't have time to go into each of the 10 traps and perimeters,

673
00:27:43.966 --> 00:27:48.216
but we definitely encourage our listeners to read your book to learn about all of them in detail.

674
00:27:48.876 --> 00:27:49.357
But Nuala,

675
00:27:49.397 --> 00:27:50.200
according to you,

676
00:27:50.601 --> 00:27:56.336
which one do you consider the most dangerous and most common for creating decision misinformation?

677
00:27:57.838 --> 00:27:57.958
Well,

678
00:27:57.978 --> 00:27:58.862
I might disappoint you,

679
00:27:58.882 --> 00:27:59.163
Suzanne,

680
00:27:59.163 --> 00:28:01.792
because I actually don't consider one the most dangerous.

681
00:28:01.992 --> 00:28:02.815
They're all common.

682
00:28:03.136 --> 00:28:03.899
They're all common.

683
00:28:04.581 --> 00:28:05.364
They're all dangerous.

684
00:28:05.866 --> 00:28:07.532
They're also also interrelated.

685
00:28:07.833 --> 00:28:09.598
So if you take the risk based traps,

686
00:28:09.638 --> 00:28:09.779
which,

687
00:28:09.1000 --> 00:28:10.260
you know,

688
00:28:10.561 --> 00:28:14.032
they are a function of ego and emotion and time.

689
00:28:14.473 --> 00:28:15.680
We mentioned power a minute ago.

690
00:28:15.700 --> 00:28:17.552
So power based traps are a function of ego.

691
00:28:18.192 --> 00:28:19.319
You see the crowd in there,

692
00:28:19.359 --> 00:28:20.204
the crowd effect.

693
00:28:20.245 --> 00:28:21.412
You see ethics in there.

694
00:28:22.042 --> 00:28:27.830
So you could take any scandal and analyse it in terms of the different weightings of these traps,

695
00:28:27.850 --> 00:28:28.351
if you like,

696
00:28:28.651 --> 00:28:31.816
whether it's the Ukraine war or 9-11,

697
00:28:31.916 --> 00:28:32.497
pick anything,

698
00:28:32.697 --> 00:28:34.940
and you can absolutely translate it in terms of these.

699
00:28:35.221 --> 00:28:35.922
But the good news is,

700
00:28:35.902 --> 00:28:36.343
of course,

701
00:28:36.343 --> 00:28:38.849
is that opportunity exists once you know about these,

702
00:28:39.069 --> 00:28:43.740
you at least have half a chance of mitigating error and trying to prevent some of these.

703
00:28:44.141 --> 00:28:45.626
So it's not all doom and gloom.

704
00:28:45.807 --> 00:28:49.200
There is hope if you choose to spend time.

705
00:28:49.452 --> 00:28:51.024
and rethink about what you're doing.

706
00:28:51.084 --> 00:28:53.084
And read the book to find out about all 10.

707
00:28:53.611 --> 00:28:53.822
Well.

708
00:28:56.206 --> 00:28:56.428
Yes,

709
00:28:56.509 --> 00:28:56.891
Nuala,

710
00:28:57.718 --> 00:28:58.564
we have understood.

711
00:28:59.484 --> 00:29:01.840
And maybe it's unfortunate,

712
00:29:01.860 --> 00:29:02.344
I don't know,

713
00:29:02.705 --> 00:29:07.124
why it is so difficult to make a smart decision,

714
00:29:07.605 --> 00:29:10.584
good decision because of external factor,

715
00:29:11.184 --> 00:29:15.564
because our internal cognition and all this bias,

716
00:29:16.486 --> 00:29:17.381
which are all...

717
00:29:17.847 --> 00:29:19.491
important and dangerous,

718
00:29:19.611 --> 00:29:23.140
but hopefully you have some solution.

719
00:29:23.904 --> 00:29:28.579
And now it's time to talk about your solution for making good decisions.

720
00:29:30.144 --> 00:29:35.740
So we understand that it is a really strong challenge,

721
00:29:38.227 --> 00:29:40.032
and our psychology,

722
00:29:40.112 --> 00:29:42.740
in addition to the external context,

723
00:29:42.921 --> 00:29:51.298
does not help us with many of the traps you have summarized in these fantastic acronym perimeters.

724
00:29:52.538 --> 00:29:54.581
But you suggest,

725
00:29:54.662 --> 00:29:55.503
you propose,

726
00:29:55.503 --> 00:29:57.806
you offer a roadmap and very,

727
00:29:58.167 --> 00:29:58.567
I think,

728
00:29:58.648 --> 00:30:04.236
concrete solution to become what you call a decision ninja.

729
00:30:05.257 --> 00:30:09.104
So before discussing this concrete solution,

730
00:30:09.224 --> 00:30:13.172
could you define what you mean by a decision ninja?

731
00:30:13.452 --> 00:30:15.496
Is it a superhuman?

732
00:30:17.098 --> 00:30:17.338
Well,

733
00:30:17.458 --> 00:30:19.640
I think it's a superpower.

734
00:30:19.801 --> 00:30:20.922
I don't know about a superhuman,

735
00:30:20.922 --> 00:30:22.744
but it's someone who uses their superpower.

736
00:30:23.044 --> 00:30:23.965
It's very simply,

737
00:30:24.065 --> 00:30:24.325
Eric,

738
00:30:24.606 --> 00:30:29.691
somebody who's tuning in to the voices that really matter so that they stand out,

739
00:30:29.691 --> 00:30:30.051
as I said,

740
00:30:30.132 --> 00:30:31.433
rather than lose out.

741
00:30:31.713 --> 00:30:34.316
So it is someone who's intentional about interpretation.

742
00:30:34.839 --> 00:30:38.650
someone who consciously notices what's said and what's not said.

743
00:30:39.132 --> 00:30:40.656
So it is a little bit aspirational,

744
00:30:41.257 --> 00:30:46.536
but it does encourage people to be more thoughtful and more responsible for the decisions they make.

745
00:30:46.576 --> 00:30:47.541
And lots of people do it.

746
00:30:47.802 --> 00:30:50.656
So if you're a journalist or an investigator cracking cases,

747
00:30:51.036 --> 00:30:51.639
people do it.

748
00:30:52.001 --> 00:30:52.885
So yes,

749
00:30:52.925 --> 00:30:53.689
people get it wrong,

750
00:30:53.789 --> 00:30:55.176
but a lot of people also get it right.

751
00:30:56.412 --> 00:31:02.467
Do you have in mind an example in real life of someone who is,

752
00:31:03.329 --> 00:31:04.332
from your perspective,

753
00:31:04.572 --> 00:31:05.592
a decision ninja?

754
00:31:07.274 --> 00:31:08.580
I don't have one in particular,

755
00:31:08.600 --> 00:31:09.162
but in the book,

756
00:31:09.202 --> 00:31:10.628
I decided in every chapter,

757
00:31:10.769 --> 00:31:18.532
I made absolutely sure that I included at least one at the end of every chapter so that people could learn from other people.

758
00:31:18.752 --> 00:31:20.701
So people who are facing these perimeter traps,

759
00:31:20.963 --> 00:31:22.872
what did they do and how did they do it?

760
00:31:22.932 --> 00:31:26.152
So you've got a lot of examples of people who get it right in there as well.

761
00:31:27.017 --> 00:31:27.297
Okay,

762
00:31:27.517 --> 00:31:27.897
thanks.

763
00:31:28.178 --> 00:31:29.479
So first,

764
00:31:30.179 --> 00:31:31.400
your first solution,

765
00:31:31.640 --> 00:31:32.261
I would say,

766
00:31:32.841 --> 00:31:37.905
it's about adopting a specific mindset that you call,

767
00:31:38.105 --> 00:31:38.465
again,

768
00:31:38.525 --> 00:31:39.826
and congrats for this,

769
00:31:41.127 --> 00:31:41.808
AAA,

770
00:31:42.048 --> 00:31:46.011
I don't know if it is the right pronunciation,

771
00:31:46.091 --> 00:31:49.113
mindset for outcome anticipation,

772
00:31:49.793 --> 00:31:51.335
outcome attitude,

773
00:31:51.575 --> 00:31:53.256
and outcome acceptance.

774
00:31:54.041 --> 00:32:00.000
Could you explain each of these three factors that we need to control to make better decisions?

775
00:32:00.740 --> 00:32:00.901
Yeah,

776
00:32:00.901 --> 00:32:01.423
I've called it,

777
00:32:01.563 --> 00:32:03.169
I actually called it AAA,

778
00:32:03.490 --> 00:32:03.731
Eric,

779
00:32:03.831 --> 00:32:06.400
because it was a bit of a pun on my investment background.

780
00:32:06.960 --> 00:32:08.164
So that was the three A's.

781
00:32:08.445 --> 00:32:09.007
As you can see,

782
00:32:09.147 --> 00:32:12.860
I'm clearly trying to get people to remember some of this stuff by making it easy.

783
00:32:13.200 --> 00:32:14.290
Another mnemonic for people,

784
00:32:14.290 --> 00:32:15.320
but AAA was easy.

785
00:32:15.801 --> 00:32:18.969
So all it really says is that you control your own mindset,

786
00:32:19.330 --> 00:32:21.074
that if you go into your decision making,

787
00:32:21.515 --> 00:32:23.440
thinking about the fact that you can.

788
00:32:25.149 --> 00:32:26.192
you can't control everything,

789
00:32:26.192 --> 00:32:28.819
but you can control your anticipation,

790
00:32:29.100 --> 00:32:29.360
you know,

791
00:32:29.781 --> 00:32:33.953
your attitude to what happens and you can control whether you accept it or not.

792
00:32:34.315 --> 00:32:37.083
So you minimize the liability,

793
00:32:37.103 --> 00:32:37.444
if you like,

794
00:32:37.484 --> 00:32:38.769
when you do control these.

795
00:32:38.789 --> 00:32:38.909
So,

796
00:32:39.612 --> 00:32:41.921
and becoming this decision ninja relies on,

797
00:32:42.202 --> 00:32:42.443
you know,

798
00:32:42.463 --> 00:32:43.567
this being intentional,

799
00:32:44.070 --> 00:32:44.491
et cetera.

800
00:32:44.532 --> 00:32:47.304
So it's really just putting people into the right frame of mind.

801
00:32:47.364 --> 00:32:48.068
If you decide,

802
00:32:48.390 --> 00:32:50.884
woe is me and I have no control here.

803
00:32:51.923 --> 00:32:53.635
you're not really going to get very far anyway.

804
00:32:54.015 --> 00:32:54.598
So really,

805
00:32:54.618 --> 00:32:59.225
I was just trying to get people into a more positive mindset before they make this decision,

806
00:32:59.265 --> 00:33:01.015
before they adopt any of the approaches.

807
00:33:01.375 --> 00:33:03.475
So that's the suggestion with the triple A mindset,

808
00:33:03.915 --> 00:33:05.743
just an attitude of,

809
00:33:06.245 --> 00:33:06.486
you know,

810
00:33:06.888 --> 00:33:08.595
acceptance and anticipation.

811
00:33:08.676 --> 00:33:10.085
So predict what's going to happen,

812
00:33:10.427 --> 00:33:11.555
control your own attitude.

813
00:33:12.075 --> 00:33:13.061
And then when it happens,

814
00:33:13.061 --> 00:33:15.575
it happens and deal with the consequences.

815
00:33:16.855 --> 00:33:21.251
But it's not only a question of state of mind or mindset.

816
00:33:22.492 --> 00:33:23.155
You have also,

817
00:33:23.276 --> 00:33:24.300
and you suggest also,

818
00:33:24.380 --> 00:33:26.751
what you call the sonic strategy.

819
00:33:27.231 --> 00:33:27.693
Again,

820
00:33:28.094 --> 00:33:33.931
I need to help your readers to remember each of the five key actions.

821
00:33:34.812 --> 00:33:36.299
S for slow down,

822
00:33:36.901 --> 00:33:39.031
O for organize your attention,

823
00:33:39.432 --> 00:33:41.821
N for navigate novel perspective,

824
00:33:42.444 --> 00:33:44.351
I for interrupt mindset,

825
00:33:44.872 --> 00:33:48.357
And C for calibrate situation,

826
00:33:48.518 --> 00:33:50.240
stranger and strategy.

827
00:33:50.821 --> 00:33:57.071
Could you briefly summarize each of these five key objectives?

828
00:33:57.451 --> 00:33:57.572
Yeah,

829
00:33:57.772 --> 00:33:58.373
and they are very,

830
00:33:58.493 --> 00:33:58.973
very brief,

831
00:33:59.133 --> 00:33:59.334
Eric.

832
00:33:59.434 --> 00:34:01.676
And you would do it in a process.

833
00:34:01.757 --> 00:34:03.118
So I deliberately chose them.

834
00:34:03.138 --> 00:34:03.358
I mean,

835
00:34:03.399 --> 00:34:06.042
Sonic was deliberate because it plays on death spots,

836
00:34:06.142 --> 00:34:06.562
obviously.

837
00:34:07.163 --> 00:34:09.005
But you do it in a process.

838
00:34:09.085 --> 00:34:09.666
So first of all,

839
00:34:09.866 --> 00:34:13.110
you need to just slow down to enable yourself to even challenge your thinking.

840
00:34:13.130 --> 00:34:13.891
If you don't do that.

841
00:34:15.102 --> 00:34:16.731
you're kind of not even at the races.

842
00:34:17.291 --> 00:34:19.551
So if you don't organise your attention,

843
00:34:19.891 --> 00:34:20.962
so in this frantic,

844
00:34:21.063 --> 00:34:21.751
noisy world,

845
00:34:22.332 --> 00:34:25.911
I'm suggesting you do that so that you can actually be in the best position to make a decision.

846
00:34:26.051 --> 00:34:27.191
And there are three or four different,

847
00:34:27.231 --> 00:34:29.851
I should say there are three or four different strategies for each of these,

848
00:34:30.233 --> 00:34:31.071
all science-based,

849
00:34:31.271 --> 00:34:32.511
all should be familiar to people.

850
00:34:33.151 --> 00:34:33.635
Then thirdly,

851
00:34:33.676 --> 00:34:40.111
you navigate these novel perspectives so that you don't rush to judgment and you at least take into consideration other people's views.

852
00:34:40.791 --> 00:34:41.674
interrupting mindsets.

853
00:34:41.694 --> 00:34:49.543
I did quite like this one because you're mentally putting on the brakes so that you again avoid that rush to judgment or the assumption of validity.

854
00:34:49.824 --> 00:34:53.560
So you interrupt your own mindset and you interrupt other people's as well.

855
00:34:53.620 --> 00:34:54.002
And again,

856
00:34:54.142 --> 00:34:55.829
two or three techniques you can use for that.

857
00:34:56.170 --> 00:34:56.993
And then the last one is,

858
00:34:57.314 --> 00:34:57.555
you know,

859
00:34:57.575 --> 00:35:04.419
kind of recalibrating situations and strangers and strategies is the last stop to getting it right.

860
00:35:04.440 --> 00:35:07.583
And that's using checklists and implementation intentions.

861
00:35:07.684 --> 00:35:07.826
And

862
00:35:08.395 --> 00:35:08.636
you know,

863
00:35:08.676 --> 00:35:13.235
techniques that would be certainly in the behavioural science field that people would be familiar with.

864
00:35:13.416 --> 00:35:13.878
But again,

865
00:35:14.039 --> 00:35:14.341
really,

866
00:35:14.421 --> 00:35:15.064
really easy.

867
00:35:15.265 --> 00:35:17.896
And people have the choice to try some and,

868
00:35:18.298 --> 00:35:18.539
you know,

869
00:35:18.719 --> 00:35:21.891
use these as befits the particular decision scenario.

870
00:35:22.393 --> 00:35:22.554
Yeah,

871
00:35:22.795 --> 00:35:24.423
it's funny because you mentioned,

872
00:35:24.886 --> 00:35:25.247
I think,

873
00:35:25.529 --> 00:35:25.931
friction.

874
00:35:26.994 --> 00:35:28.037
and sludge,

875
00:35:28.578 --> 00:35:33.751
and the interest to put friction into our decision-making process.

876
00:35:34.475 --> 00:35:35.231
That's exactly right.

877
00:35:35.712 --> 00:35:36.697
And decision friction,

878
00:35:37.119 --> 00:35:39.271
so the sonic strategies are based on decision friction.

879
00:35:39.772 --> 00:35:41.306
And a lot of people don't like friction,

880
00:35:41.407 --> 00:35:41.851
as we know.

881
00:35:42.172 --> 00:35:45.404
But if you deliberately slow down,

882
00:35:45.444 --> 00:35:47.231
this is like a speed bump for the mind,

883
00:35:47.331 --> 00:35:52.351
you slow down in the initial cases so that you can at least make a better decision.

884
00:35:52.554 --> 00:35:53.749
If you keep hurtling along...

885
00:35:54.005 --> 00:35:55.115
you might make a great decision.

886
00:35:55.235 --> 00:35:55.377
I mean,

887
00:35:55.417 --> 00:35:56.855
some people make great decisions at speed,

888
00:35:57.256 --> 00:36:01.715
but you're more likely to make a mistake than if you don't at least reconsider it.

889
00:36:02.196 --> 00:36:03.475
So you're absolutely right.

890
00:36:03.576 --> 00:36:06.995
I'm using decision friction in a positive sense rather than the negative sense.

891
00:36:07.790 --> 00:36:07.915
Yeah.

892
00:36:08.236 --> 00:36:10.614
It's funny because we have interviewed some months ago

893
00:36:11.359 --> 00:36:12.789
Cass Sunstein on...

894
00:36:14.059 --> 00:36:15.983
One of his new books,

895
00:36:16.003 --> 00:36:20.212
but Cash is used to publish a new book every four months,

896
00:36:20.212 --> 00:36:21.275
which is incredible.

897
00:36:22.378 --> 00:36:27.455
And this was a book about sludge and the danger of sludge in his case.

898
00:36:30.133 --> 00:36:32.337
What is really interesting,

899
00:36:32.417 --> 00:36:34.802
and I think very interesting,

900
00:36:35.343 --> 00:36:35.824
Nuala,

901
00:36:36.565 --> 00:36:39.490
is for each of these objectives,

902
00:36:40.372 --> 00:36:44.341
it's not only the sonic strategies that you recommend,

903
00:36:44.381 --> 00:36:53.670
but you recommend very specific tools or processes to be successful at implementing the sonic judgment strategy.

904
00:36:54.132 --> 00:36:56.321
Could you again share one or two,

905
00:36:56.441 --> 00:36:57.063
maybe three,

906
00:36:57.445 --> 00:36:58.750
examples of the tools

907
00:36:59.097 --> 00:37:01.751
or process you suggest for our listeners.

908
00:37:02.533 --> 00:37:02.694
Yes,

909
00:37:02.754 --> 00:37:03.077
and again,

910
00:37:03.560 --> 00:37:05.131
they're specific to any situation,

911
00:37:05.411 --> 00:37:06.882
and it depends whether you're on the S,

912
00:37:06.942 --> 00:37:07.063
O,

913
00:37:07.305 --> 00:37:07.426
N,

914
00:37:07.547 --> 00:37:07.668
I,

915
00:37:07.708 --> 00:37:07.990
or C.

916
00:37:08.471 --> 00:37:10.270
So I'll give you an S and a C,

917
00:37:10.471 --> 00:37:11.511
so the beginning and the end of one.

918
00:37:11.952 --> 00:37:12.336
I like,

919
00:37:12.336 --> 00:37:12.558
I mean,

920
00:37:12.679 --> 00:37:12.962
and again,

921
00:37:12.982 --> 00:37:13.851
people like different ones.

922
00:37:14.092 --> 00:37:14.918
I like the five

923
00:37:15.261 --> 00:37:16.410
Ys because...

924
00:37:16.642 --> 00:37:16.862
You know,

925
00:37:16.842 --> 00:37:18.726
and the five whys is based on a

926
00:37:19.367 --> 00:37:20.529
1970s idea from Toyota,

927
00:37:20.549 --> 00:37:21.611
the car manufacturer,

928
00:37:21.852 --> 00:37:26.420
and they developed a very simple approach to solving problems that's also now used in Six Sigma.

929
00:37:26.820 --> 00:37:30.260
I merely have adapted this for decision making in this case.

930
00:37:31.061 --> 00:37:31.422
So,

931
00:37:31.422 --> 00:37:31.642
you know,

932
00:37:32.004 --> 00:37:37.340
Toyota assumes that most technical problems is based on a human problem.

933
00:37:37.780 --> 00:37:43.240
And basically they ask themselves why five times to ascertain the underlying cause.

934
00:37:43.644 --> 00:37:45.099
And I think this is useful for.

935
00:37:46.064 --> 00:37:46.305
you know,

936
00:37:46.365 --> 00:37:49.255
probing false reasoning or checking your assumptions.

937
00:37:49.616 --> 00:37:55.275
And it does mitigate against biases like probability neglect or loss aversion or commitment escalation.

938
00:37:55.756 --> 00:37:58.505
So any combination is possible here.

939
00:37:58.565 --> 00:37:59.187
Why this?

940
00:37:59.267 --> 00:37:59.829
Why that?

941
00:37:59.909 --> 00:38:00.511
Why the other?

942
00:38:00.572 --> 00:38:00.993
Why this?

943
00:38:01.535 --> 00:38:06.149
It's the same as the and then and then and then and then and then.

944
00:38:06.871 --> 00:38:08.356
So when you do that,

945
00:38:08.577 --> 00:38:09.660
it's easy to remember,

946
00:38:10.001 --> 00:38:14.140
but you might do it when you're feeling uncertain about a particular decision.

947
00:38:14.475 --> 00:38:14.595
well,

948
00:38:14.656 --> 00:38:15.779
what if I do that?

949
00:38:15.979 --> 00:38:16.722
And so what?

950
00:38:17.002 --> 00:38:17.704
And so what?

951
00:38:17.865 --> 00:38:18.527
And so what?

952
00:38:18.988 --> 00:38:20.252
And I think when you do that,

953
00:38:20.372 --> 00:38:23.632
it de-escalates the stress that you're under when you're actually making a decision.

954
00:38:23.992 --> 00:38:24.715
But in this case,

955
00:38:25.177 --> 00:38:28.049
it introduces decision friction and it slows you down.

956
00:38:28.370 --> 00:38:28.792
So if you ask,

957
00:38:28.852 --> 00:38:30.098
you have to wait till you get to five.

958
00:38:30.762 --> 00:38:32.772
So you should be slowed down by three or four,

959
00:38:32.812 --> 00:38:34.623
at least by the time you've thought of the answers.

960
00:38:34.824 --> 00:38:36.112
So it's a way to slow you down.

961
00:38:36.931 --> 00:38:37.352
another one,

962
00:38:37.573 --> 00:38:38.736
which is one of my favorites.

963
00:38:39.678 --> 00:38:41.984
And this is at the end.

964
00:38:42.064 --> 00:38:45.094
This is a way to get people to make sure that they do this.

965
00:38:45.154 --> 00:38:46.499
So initially,

966
00:38:46.499 --> 00:38:49.109
you need to commit that if you want to be a decision ninja,

967
00:38:49.149 --> 00:38:49.270
well,

968
00:38:49.270 --> 00:38:51.720
you need to at least commit to making an effort in the space.

969
00:38:52.182 --> 00:38:55.314
So this is to overcome the low implementation intentions,

970
00:38:55.635 --> 00:38:59.227
to overcome low willpower when people are deciding fast.

971
00:38:59.227 --> 00:39:00.647
So if you're a really fast

972
00:39:01.276 --> 00:39:03.283
decision maker and you decided,

973
00:39:03.905 --> 00:39:05.972
I want to get this right and this really matters.

974
00:39:06.552 --> 00:39:06.673
Well,

975
00:39:06.693 --> 00:39:07.898
then it's again,

976
00:39:07.898 --> 00:39:11.392
it's that if then plan that addresses the behaviour intention gap.

977
00:39:11.813 --> 00:39:15.686
And so we know that this works from appointment keeping to voting.

978
00:39:15.707 --> 00:39:18.516
So we know that pre-planning and commitment works.

979
00:39:18.958 --> 00:39:21.829
So if you pre-commit to being a better decision,

980
00:39:22.270 --> 00:39:22.672
it helps.

981
00:39:23.639 --> 00:39:24.541
Yeah,

982
00:39:24.621 --> 00:39:30.476
I remember we have just interviewed one month ago with Suzanne Todd Rogers.

983
00:39:31.478 --> 00:39:42.476
I think he made a wonderful experiment to demonstrate the power of implementing a plan to encourage action and not just intent.

984
00:39:42.697 --> 00:39:43.402
In his case,

985
00:39:43.442 --> 00:39:45.496
it is about voting.

986
00:39:45.889 --> 00:39:46.129
Yes,

987
00:39:46.410 --> 00:39:47.050
absolutely right.

988
00:39:47.070 --> 00:39:49.013
And the fantastic studies they have done.

989
00:39:49.353 --> 00:39:49.654
And again,

990
00:39:49.674 --> 00:39:51.616
this is just adapting the same principle.

991
00:39:52.016 --> 00:39:55.401
So if you commit to using the perimeters checklist,

992
00:39:55.461 --> 00:39:56.202
and what I've done is

993
00:39:56.822 --> 00:40:00.327
I've put all the biases together under that perimeters checklist,

994
00:40:00.327 --> 00:40:01.488
and that's available to people.

995
00:40:01.989 --> 00:40:03.731
Or you make a decision rule that says,

996
00:40:04.092 --> 00:40:06.195
I'm always going to distrust the information,

997
00:40:06.375 --> 00:40:09.300
but verify kind of a play on the Ronald Reagan trust,

998
00:40:09.380 --> 00:40:10.521
but verify idea,

999
00:40:11.142 --> 00:40:13.145
then you then it becomes a habit.

1000
00:40:13.306 --> 00:40:14.848
And we all know about the power of habits.

1001
00:40:15.111 --> 00:40:21.428
And then you have increased your probability of reflecting more and reducing error.

1002
00:40:22.653 --> 00:40:22.954
Now,

1003
00:40:23.434 --> 00:40:26.978
you have learned that we have delved into the details and again,

1004
00:40:27.138 --> 00:40:27.318
as

1005
00:40:28.880 --> 00:40:30.702
Suzanne mentioned before,

1006
00:40:30.802 --> 00:40:40.472
we do recommend our listeners to read your book because there are so many concrete recommendations to help us to make a better decision.

1007
00:40:40.893 --> 00:40:46.181
But could you help us take a step back now and in a nutshell,

1008
00:40:46.381 --> 00:40:48.304
summarize for our listeners?

1009
00:40:48.588 --> 00:41:09.253
listener your main advice for making smart decisions i'll go back to i'll go back to the one that i mentioned earlier on eric and that is tuning out you tune out is a hidden source of misinformation but tuning in is a hidden source of opportunity and there's a fantastic cherokee proverb that summarizes that which

1010
00:41:09.253 --> 00:41:17.184
is if you listen to the whispers you won't have to hear the screams and that's the same as saying diagnose the information before you prescribe

1011
00:41:17.520 --> 00:41:19.466
And I think when people tune in to others,

1012
00:41:19.908 --> 00:41:23.422
not only do they hear the right messages and hear what other people don't,

1013
00:41:23.522 --> 00:41:24.628
giving them an advantage,

1014
00:41:25.090 --> 00:41:26.703
but other people will tune in to them.

1015
00:41:27.336 --> 00:41:29.427
And we do know that because you relate better,

1016
00:41:29.728 --> 00:41:31.035
you'll understand other people more,

1017
00:41:31.075 --> 00:41:32.772
and by definition you win.

1018
00:41:33.116 --> 00:41:34.142
So tune in to win,

1019
00:41:34.465 --> 00:41:34.988
tune out,

1020
00:41:35.209 --> 00:41:35.692
lose out.

1021
00:41:36.276 --> 00:41:37.284
And I think if people remember that,

1022
00:41:37.305 --> 00:41:38.091
that's pretty easy.

1023
00:41:39.446 --> 00:41:40.175
Okay.

1024
00:41:40.216 --> 00:41:41.823
Only before my last question,

1025
00:41:42.305 --> 00:41:43.691
an additional question.

1026
00:41:44.334 --> 00:41:48.302
I know that you work for organization leaders,

1027
00:41:48.462 --> 00:41:50.025
CEOs and so on.

1028
00:41:50.365 --> 00:41:53.992
It is what we also are fortunate to do at BV Energy Consulting.

1029
00:41:54.533 --> 00:42:01.088
Do you have a specific recommendation to make smarter decisions for leaders,

1030
00:42:01.188 --> 00:42:02.812
organization leaders?

1031
00:42:05.215 --> 00:42:05.958
I think it's in the book,

1032
00:42:06.098 --> 00:42:06.299
Eric.

1033
00:42:06.359 --> 00:42:08.668
I think that if they remember the perimeter is traps,

1034
00:42:08.848 --> 00:42:09.672
if they choose it,

1035
00:42:09.672 --> 00:42:10.797
because there are so many there.

1036
00:42:11.179 --> 00:42:11.520
And again,

1037
00:42:11.842 --> 00:42:13.148
it's too easy to just say,

1038
00:42:13.768 --> 00:42:16.035
listen better or tune in differently.

1039
00:42:16.216 --> 00:42:23.804
But if you slow down and strategically reconsider the voices that you listen to and the voices that you don't,

1040
00:42:23.904 --> 00:42:25.853
we know that there's a problem of unheard voices.

1041
00:42:26.114 --> 00:42:27.862
We know that there's a polarised society.

1042
00:42:28.183 --> 00:42:29.992
We know that most people feel unheard,

1043
00:42:29.992 --> 00:42:30.797
whether you're an employee,

1044
00:42:31.119 --> 00:42:31.863
whether you're a citizen,

1045
00:42:31.963 --> 00:42:32.768
whether you're a customer.

1046
00:42:33.211 --> 00:42:34.996
people are feeling unheard now,

1047
00:42:35.397 --> 00:42:36.601
way more than ever before.

1048
00:42:36.902 --> 00:42:37.563
As a decision,

1049
00:42:37.784 --> 00:42:39.148
as a decision maker,

1050
00:42:39.329 --> 00:42:39.971
as a leader,

1051
00:42:40.593 --> 00:42:44.546
when you choose to listen to voices differently,

1052
00:42:44.746 --> 00:42:44.967
you know,

1053
00:42:44.967 --> 00:42:45.268
whether it's

1054
00:42:45.796 --> 00:42:46.077
ego,

1055
00:42:46.258 --> 00:42:46.841
conscience,

1056
00:42:46.841 --> 00:42:48.007
the voice of comfort,

1057
00:42:48.067 --> 00:42:48.650
familiarity,

1058
00:42:49.270 --> 00:42:50.981
reconsider the voices you listen to,

1059
00:42:51.323 --> 00:42:52.390
you will make better decisions.

1060
00:42:54.205 --> 00:43:02.941
Now my final question for you as we are at the end of our really insightful conversation.

1061
00:43:03.462 --> 00:43:13.799
You have conducted a really brilliant analysis of the external and internal causes that explain why it's so difficult to make decisions.

1062
00:43:14.362 --> 00:43:17.401
You also propose very relevant decisions.

1063
00:43:17.602 --> 00:43:20.381
But my question is in the end.

1064
00:43:21.783 --> 00:43:26.272
Aren't you suggesting something that's very challenging,

1065
00:43:26.893 --> 00:43:29.078
namely that humans become

1066
00:43:29.920 --> 00:43:34.093
System 2 decision makers when we are intrinsically

1067
00:43:34.614 --> 00:43:35.838
System 1 beings?

1068
00:43:36.540 --> 00:43:43.318
How do you suggest we balance our imperfect human side with our best side?

1069
00:43:44.593 --> 00:43:45.965
It goes back to the commitment,

1070
00:43:46.368 --> 00:43:46.530
Eric.

1071
00:43:46.831 --> 00:43:48.109
You hold a position of power.

1072
00:43:48.310 --> 00:43:50.750
It is your moral duty to get it right.

1073
00:43:50.971 --> 00:43:54.130
When you are in a position of power impacting other people's lives,

1074
00:43:54.770 --> 00:43:56.009
it is the onus is on you,

1075
00:43:56.110 --> 00:43:57.930
the responsibility is on you to do it.

1076
00:43:58.250 --> 00:43:59.017
And that requires,

1077
00:43:59.158 --> 00:44:03.570
it requires a commitment to at least trying to make better decisions.

1078
00:44:03.830 --> 00:44:03.951
Now,

1079
00:44:04.254 --> 00:44:05.770
most of the time you might get them right,

1080
00:44:06.191 --> 00:44:08.890
but the consequences are too high when you get them wrong.

1081
00:44:09.271 --> 00:44:09.990
And I think that's what it is.

1082
00:44:10.070 --> 00:44:11.970
Look at the consequences when people get it wrong.

1083
00:44:12.601 --> 00:44:13.424
And that's the problem.

1084
00:44:13.665 --> 00:44:16.598
Do you want to be on the right side of history or the wrong side of history?

1085
00:44:17.178 --> 00:44:21.138
I think misjudgment is not entirely your fault in this noisy world.

1086
00:44:21.678 --> 00:44:21.839
You know,

1087
00:44:21.819 --> 00:44:23.064
we've got our internal problems,

1088
00:44:23.084 --> 00:44:23.867
as you've just said,

1089
00:44:24.047 --> 00:44:24.288
you know,

1090
00:44:24.349 --> 00:44:25.473
internal misinformation,

1091
00:44:25.533 --> 00:44:26.718
external disinformation.

1092
00:44:27.179 --> 00:44:30.338
But judgment is a choice and you choose to get this right.

1093
00:44:30.398 --> 00:44:33.278
You choose to be a decision ninja or you don't.

1094
00:44:33.719 --> 00:44:35.223
But when you hold positions of power,

1095
00:44:35.543 --> 00:44:37.989
other people's welfare,

1096
00:44:38.270 --> 00:44:38.711
lives,

1097
00:44:38.811 --> 00:44:39.533
livelihoods,

1098
00:44:39.733 --> 00:44:41.658
happiness depends on you and your choices.

1099
00:44:43.345 --> 00:44:44.794
I think it's beholden on you to do it.

1100
00:44:45.555 --> 00:44:45.717
Yes.

1101
00:44:45.757 --> 00:44:46.650
Thank you so much again,

1102
00:44:46.690 --> 00:44:46.934
Noala.

1103
00:44:47.074 --> 00:44:50.814
This is a fantastic conversation and we're so happy that you joined us today.

1104
00:44:51.618 --> 00:44:53.994
Is there anything you would like to leave our audience with,

1105
00:44:54.154 --> 00:44:56.372
such as where they can find out more about you and your work?

1106
00:44:57.416 --> 00:44:57.658
Sure.

1107
00:44:57.800 --> 00:44:59.133
You can obviously get the,

1108
00:44:59.356 --> 00:45:02.454
you can get the book that's available on Amazon or all leading outlets.

1109
00:45:02.797 --> 00:45:04.373
But in terms of the actual work,

1110
00:45:05.397 --> 00:45:09.373
I've over a hundred articles and a lot more information on,

1111
00:45:09.645 --> 00:45:09.772
on.

1112
00:45:10.514 --> 00:45:10.856
different,

1113
00:45:11.036 --> 00:45:11.257
you know,

1114
00:45:11.659 --> 00:45:14.390
speaking events and stuff that I've done are on the website.

1115
00:45:14.531 --> 00:45:18.870
And that is www.nualsh.com.

1116
00:45:19.410 --> 00:45:23.510
So N-U-A-L-A-G-W-A-L-S-H dot com.

1117
00:45:24.723 --> 00:45:25.353
Thanks a lot,

1118
00:45:25.475 --> 00:45:25.698
Nuala.

1119
00:45:25.838 --> 00:45:28.038
It was a wonderful conversation.

1120
00:45:28.418 --> 00:45:30.518
You are a very engaging speaker.

1121
00:45:31.038 --> 00:45:31.661
And again,

1122
00:45:31.762 --> 00:45:40.798
we do recommend with Suzanne to read your book because it is 350 pages of concrete and helpful recommendations.

1123
00:45:41.719 --> 00:45:42.298
Thanks a lot.

1124
00:45:42.498 --> 00:45:42.620
Well,

1125
00:45:42.661 --> 00:45:43.718
thank you both very much.

1126
00:45:43.899 --> 00:45:44.677
It's been lots of fun.

1127
00:45:45.458 --> 00:45:45.982
Be Good,

1128
00:45:46.284 --> 00:45:48.438
a podcast by the BVA Nudge Unit.