WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.080 --> 00:00:02.723 Europe doesn't have a technology problem. 2 00:00:03.023 --> 00:00:04.883 It has a coordination problem. 3 00:00:05.047 --> 00:00:09.227 If you focus on electricity separately from heating and separately from cooling, 4 00:00:09.789 --> 00:00:13.414 you have different islands that don't communicate with one another. 5 00:00:13.531 --> 00:00:20.578 What matters to tenants as well is that it's the possibility of having a free mind and being sure that the system works in itself. 6 00:00:24.656 --> 00:00:26.188 The energy transition is happening, 7 00:00:26.469 --> 00:00:27.391 but is it fair? 8 00:00:27.940 --> 00:00:29.802 Is it working for people like you and me, 9 00:00:30.383 --> 00:00:32.445 or just for big market players? 10 00:00:33.567 --> 00:00:34.567 Welcome to Energetic. 11 00:00:34.809 --> 00:00:35.707 I am Mayim Cornelis, 12 00:00:35.809 --> 00:00:37.832 an expert in energy and climate policies, 13 00:00:38.192 --> 00:00:41.090 and I bring you the voices shaping our energy future. 14 00:00:41.871 --> 00:00:42.317 Activists, 15 00:00:42.332 --> 00:00:42.934 scientists, 16 00:00:43.035 --> 00:00:43.778 policymakers, 17 00:00:44.152 --> 00:00:46.152 the real people making real change, 18 00:00:46.762 --> 00:00:48.121 often against the odds. 19 00:00:49.074 --> 00:00:49.402 Here, 20 00:00:49.606 --> 00:00:51.840 we do not settle for surface-level takes. 21 00:00:52.278 --> 00:00:53.731 We dig into the challenges, 22 00:00:53.871 --> 00:00:54.668 the solutions, 23 00:00:54.824 --> 00:00:56.621 and the lessons that do not... 24 00:00:56.816 --> 00:00:58.096 always make the headlines. 25 00:00:58.797 --> 00:00:59.537 And in doing so, 26 00:01:00.037 --> 00:01:02.037 we rediscover something vital, 27 00:01:02.478 --> 00:01:04.697 our ability to trust in institutions, 28 00:01:04.861 --> 00:01:05.838 to believe in change, 29 00:01:06.134 --> 00:01:08.775 and to reclaim our power to act. 30 00:01:09.220 --> 00:01:11.041 Because if we want just resilience, 31 00:01:11.361 --> 00:01:12.681 if we want to just transition, 32 00:01:13.095 --> 00:01:15.955 we need to understand what it takes to make it happen. 33 00:01:16.533 --> 00:01:17.361 And more importantly, 34 00:01:17.814 --> 00:01:19.658 we need to believe that we can. 35 00:01:20.408 --> 00:01:21.236 Let's get into it. 36 00:01:22.924 --> 00:01:24.736 Heating and cooling are where the 37 00:01:25.108 --> 00:01:26.570 energy transition becomes real. 38 00:01:27.109 --> 00:01:27.951 They affect bills, 39 00:01:28.031 --> 00:01:28.511 comfort, 40 00:01:28.611 --> 00:01:30.812 and the resilience of buildings and neighborhoods. 41 00:01:31.554 --> 00:01:35.238 After sharing an event on heat pump in Brussels at the end of 2025, 42 00:01:35.519 --> 00:01:36.519 one thing was clear to me. 43 00:01:37.261 --> 00:01:39.926 Europe doesn't have a technology problem. 44 00:01:40.207 --> 00:01:42.066 It has a coordination problem. 45 00:01:42.519 --> 00:01:45.535 We keep deploying heat pumps without aligning buildings, 46 00:01:45.582 --> 00:01:46.426 energy systems, 47 00:01:46.488 --> 00:01:47.082 financing, 48 00:01:47.644 --> 00:01:50.097 and the people expected to use them. 49 00:01:50.316 --> 00:01:52.379 That's why I wanted to have this conversation. 50 00:01:52.816 --> 00:01:54.410 I'm joined by Vladimir Georgievsky. 51 00:01:54.624 --> 00:01:55.966 who works on electrification, 52 00:01:56.165 --> 00:01:56.966 sector coupling, 53 00:01:57.126 --> 00:02:00.632 and integrated energy planning in contexts like North Macedonia, 54 00:02:01.171 --> 00:02:06.077 where limited gas infrastructure and growing cooling needs for system-level choices. 55 00:02:06.835 --> 00:02:07.936 And by Louise Maester, 56 00:02:08.140 --> 00:02:11.468 who works at the Austrian Energy Agency on heat pump rollout, 57 00:02:11.858 --> 00:02:12.827 energy communities, 58 00:02:12.983 --> 00:02:13.640 and buildings. 59 00:02:14.358 --> 00:02:16.890 Through the EU-funded InstallRest project, 60 00:02:17.062 --> 00:02:18.702 she looks at how business models, 61 00:02:18.765 --> 00:02:19.374 coordination, 62 00:02:19.405 --> 00:02:23.812 and communication shape whether clean heating actually works 63 00:02:24.156 --> 00:02:26.698 in multi-apartment buildings and social housing. 64 00:02:27.498 --> 00:02:27.760 Today, 65 00:02:28.039 --> 00:02:31.065 we talk about heat pumps as part of buildings, 66 00:02:31.143 --> 00:02:32.846 communities and energy systems, 67 00:02:33.205 --> 00:02:39.034 and about what it takes to scale clean heating without shifting costs and risk onto residents. 68 00:02:40.940 --> 00:02:41.799 Louise and Vladimir, 69 00:02:41.830 --> 00:02:42.658 welcome to the show. 70 00:02:43.190 --> 00:02:46.096 I would like to begin with your own trajectories, 71 00:02:46.190 --> 00:02:53.252 because the way you both approach heat pumps is clearly shaped by where you work and what you have been seeing on the ground. 72 00:02:53.876 --> 00:02:53.996 So, 73 00:02:54.076 --> 00:02:54.556 Vladimir, 74 00:02:54.796 --> 00:02:55.957 if I can start with you, 75 00:02:56.317 --> 00:02:58.236 you've been working on electrification, 76 00:02:58.338 --> 00:03:00.576 sector coupling and integrated energy planning, 77 00:03:01.057 --> 00:03:07.842 but in a context where the energy system doesn't really follow the standard European models, 78 00:03:07.881 --> 00:03:08.162 right, 79 00:03:08.420 --> 00:03:09.576 in North Macedonia. 80 00:03:10.225 --> 00:03:17.678 So what pulled you towards heating and cooling specifically and why did it become such a central part of your work? 81 00:03:19.256 --> 00:03:19.397 Yeah, 82 00:03:19.428 --> 00:03:19.725 thank you. 83 00:03:19.881 --> 00:03:21.584 So to answer that question, 84 00:03:21.600 --> 00:03:22.006 I think it... 85 00:03:22.164 --> 00:03:24.304 It's worth going back around a decade. 86 00:03:24.505 --> 00:03:26.005 Coming out fresh out of university, 87 00:03:26.423 --> 00:03:28.486 I was a power engineer. 88 00:03:28.884 --> 00:03:33.064 So I was focusing mostly on electrical engineering and the power system. 89 00:03:33.267 --> 00:03:39.533 So my worldview was centered around the electricity sector and the challenges that arise from the electricity sector. 90 00:03:39.689 --> 00:03:41.205 And coming straight out of university, 91 00:03:41.283 --> 00:03:44.486 I jumped into a project that focuses on heating and cooling. 92 00:03:44.502 --> 00:03:47.892 And it was a Horizon-funded project called Cool Heating. 93 00:03:48.064 --> 00:03:49.705 And then through that project... 94 00:03:49.932 --> 00:03:56.599 I got in touch with the huge challenge that Europe faces with the decarbonization of the heating sector. 95 00:03:56.657 --> 00:04:00.606 Because when we're talking about decarbonizing energy systems, 96 00:04:00.661 --> 00:04:03.184 the first thing that comes to mind is the electricity system, 97 00:04:03.622 --> 00:04:07.606 because we know about wind farms and solar panels and so on. 98 00:04:07.810 --> 00:04:08.450 But back then, 99 00:04:08.669 --> 00:04:10.778 we had around more than 70%, 100 00:04:11.013 --> 00:04:11.856 75% 101 00:04:12.560 --> 00:04:14.794 of the heating demand was met by fossil fuels, 102 00:04:14.810 --> 00:04:19.560 which is most the share of fossil fuels in the electricity sector. 103 00:04:19.744 --> 00:04:25.207 And the amount of energy that is required for heating and cooling is far beyond that of electricity, 104 00:04:25.586 --> 00:04:28.023 of simply electricity demand in some sectors. 105 00:04:28.203 --> 00:04:35.430 So that made it clear to me that heating and cooling are really central to decarbonizing energy systems in the long run. 106 00:04:35.625 --> 00:04:39.664 So then you think about what are the tools that allow you to do that. 107 00:04:39.773 --> 00:04:44.445 And if you focus on electricity separately from heating and separately from cooling, 108 00:04:45.023 --> 00:04:47.992 you have different islands that don't communicate. 109 00:04:48.212 --> 00:04:48.854 with one another. 110 00:04:49.215 --> 00:04:51.661 And you think about isolated strategies, 111 00:04:51.821 --> 00:04:52.983 and it's like running a... 112 00:04:53.796 --> 00:04:54.637 household budget, 113 00:04:55.097 --> 00:05:02.704 but you have the household budget with one pocket only for groceries and another pocket only for etc. 114 00:05:03.227 --> 00:05:05.649 And you're not looking at the whole picture holistically. 115 00:05:06.391 --> 00:05:13.899 So that led me to Integrated Energy Planning and I've had the opportunity to work with some wonderful people from academia, 116 00:05:14.118 --> 00:05:17.680 from governmental organizations and international institutions. 117 00:05:17.962 --> 00:05:18.899 And 10 years later, 118 00:05:19.415 --> 00:05:20.602 here I am working at 119 00:05:20.656 --> 00:05:27.625 But the university is an assistant professor and doing my research still mostly on this topic and tackling it from different angles. 120 00:05:28.586 --> 00:05:29.968 That's really interesting. 121 00:05:30.047 --> 00:05:32.648 And thank you so much for this very, 122 00:05:33.609 --> 00:05:38.281 very comprehensive view of what you've been doing so far and how it's unfolding. 123 00:05:38.734 --> 00:05:39.172 Louise, 124 00:05:39.687 --> 00:05:42.718 your work also is very multidisciplinary, 125 00:05:42.844 --> 00:05:43.062 right? 126 00:05:43.140 --> 00:05:45.937 You've been working at the crossroad of buildings, 127 00:05:46.015 --> 00:05:47.828 housing and energy systems. 128 00:05:48.752 --> 00:05:56.400 What made multi-apartment buildings and limited profit housing such an entry point for you in the energy transition? 129 00:05:57.322 --> 00:05:57.760 So for me, 130 00:05:58.119 --> 00:05:59.603 it didn't start a decade ago, 131 00:05:59.720 --> 00:06:01.822 but it also started in university. 132 00:06:02.244 --> 00:06:07.166 So I wrote my master's thesis on the limited profit sector in Vienna, 133 00:06:07.478 --> 00:06:12.650 which I feel is just a very cool construct basically to look at. 134 00:06:13.124 --> 00:06:18.029 Because it's quite a unique model that the Viennese social housing sector has, 135 00:06:18.209 --> 00:06:24.295 where you can really see that this does have a buffering effect on rent levels and also involves, 136 00:06:24.334 --> 00:06:24.693 let's say, 137 00:06:24.818 --> 00:06:27.217 more of a mix of different people with different backgrounds. 138 00:06:27.218 --> 00:06:29.959 So there's no social stigmatizing going on. 139 00:06:30.818 --> 00:06:38.662 And my focus on this work was basically looking at the ecologicalization of the limited profit housing sector. 140 00:06:39.443 --> 00:06:42.365 and through interviewing some of the social housing... 141 00:06:42.864 --> 00:06:44.864 organizations in Vienna. 142 00:06:45.164 --> 00:06:53.723 I saw that some of them really do some pioneering work on in terms of like upgrading the energy efficiency of the buildings, 143 00:06:53.887 --> 00:06:55.590 decarbonizing the heating system. 144 00:06:56.043 --> 00:06:59.746 And the thing is that they all operate under the limit profit principles. 145 00:06:59.809 --> 00:07:01.184 So all the money, 146 00:07:01.246 --> 00:07:02.356 let's say they generate, 147 00:07:02.543 --> 00:07:03.622 goes back into the sector, 148 00:07:03.668 --> 00:07:04.872 goes back into the building. 149 00:07:05.762 --> 00:07:06.153 Through that, 150 00:07:06.184 --> 00:07:07.731 like bigger housing organizations, 151 00:07:07.746 --> 00:07:12.325 they can also use their funds upgrading the buildings shall changing the heating system. 152 00:07:13.033 --> 00:07:22.059 And I thought it was just great to see this development because through this one can combine the aspect of affordability with also clean heating. 153 00:07:22.223 --> 00:07:23.824 And this is where we need to go, 154 00:07:23.942 --> 00:07:24.184 right? 155 00:07:24.285 --> 00:07:27.989 So to leave no one behind in the heating transition. 156 00:07:28.824 --> 00:07:37.200 So that was my entry point into basically looking more into how buildings can become climate ready, 157 00:07:37.450 --> 00:07:38.574 also affordable, 158 00:07:38.934 --> 00:07:41.700 still keeping rents and systems affordable. 159 00:07:42.476 --> 00:07:45.720 And then I started diving deeper into, 160 00:07:45.980 --> 00:07:46.320 let's say, 161 00:07:46.380 --> 00:07:51.404 just the heat pump trajectory through my work here at the Austrian Energy Agency, 162 00:07:52.185 --> 00:07:56.029 where we coordinate life funded project calls in SORES, 163 00:07:56.646 --> 00:07:59.927 which we use to look at different technical solutions, 164 00:08:00.021 --> 00:08:04.365 but also business models that can make the heat pump rollout simple and affordable. 165 00:08:04.958 --> 00:08:05.943 And yeah, 166 00:08:06.005 --> 00:08:07.255 we focus on existing. 167 00:08:07.920 --> 00:08:08.561 buildings here. 168 00:08:08.761 --> 00:08:10.402 And as my background, 169 00:08:10.482 --> 00:08:10.883 as you said, 170 00:08:10.884 --> 00:08:11.982 is more interdisciplinary, 171 00:08:12.025 --> 00:08:13.627 it's more on the social science side. 172 00:08:14.166 --> 00:08:16.170 I'm also looking more at the social factors. 173 00:08:16.171 --> 00:08:20.795 So not only how heat pumps can enter buildings in a technical sense, 174 00:08:20.834 --> 00:08:22.678 but also in a social sense. 175 00:08:22.679 --> 00:08:29.224 So how we can ensure that people can afford heating and the transition and also accept this, 176 00:08:29.881 --> 00:08:30.162 let's say, 177 00:08:30.209 --> 00:08:31.865 for some still very new technology. 178 00:08:33.271 --> 00:08:36.365 That's really super interesting because the Vienna, 179 00:08:36.474 --> 00:08:36.802 let's see. 180 00:08:37.384 --> 00:08:42.443 social or public housing system is like a blueprint for Europe's affordable housing. 181 00:08:43.264 --> 00:08:45.525 And you've been looking at it with a different approach, 182 00:08:45.564 --> 00:08:46.588 different lenses. 183 00:08:46.806 --> 00:08:47.564 And really, 184 00:08:47.728 --> 00:08:49.549 it's like about system integration. 185 00:08:49.588 --> 00:08:50.385 But what you do, 186 00:08:50.728 --> 00:08:51.088 Vladimir, 187 00:08:51.189 --> 00:08:53.049 is also about system integration, 188 00:08:53.111 --> 00:08:55.572 but with a more technical approach. 189 00:08:55.806 --> 00:09:03.416 So why does it matter to make those concept work integrate really in practice? 190 00:09:03.768 --> 00:09:07.048 Because as I said in the introduction, 191 00:09:07.128 --> 00:09:13.833 we have a kind of challenge with the fact that we forget to work with one another. 192 00:09:14.067 --> 00:09:15.927 The InstallRest project is really, 193 00:09:16.169 --> 00:09:18.310 and the work you've been doing so far, 194 00:09:18.755 --> 00:09:20.911 is about bridging those gaps, 195 00:09:21.099 --> 00:09:21.317 right? 196 00:09:21.755 --> 00:09:23.849 So why does it matter so much? 197 00:09:24.411 --> 00:09:28.114 Let's start maybe with the social science perspective with this. 198 00:09:29.130 --> 00:09:29.349 Yes, 199 00:09:29.520 --> 00:09:32.880 I think it matters a lot because we... 200 00:09:33.804 --> 00:09:34.265 As I said, 201 00:09:34.286 --> 00:09:40.982 so we need to combine the technical side with the social side to make it also affordable for people to know how to use it. 202 00:09:41.181 --> 00:09:42.466 And the coupling, 203 00:09:42.529 --> 00:09:42.904 let's say, 204 00:09:43.044 --> 00:09:44.333 from before there was 205 00:09:44.882 --> 00:09:45.722 heating on its own, 206 00:09:45.762 --> 00:09:46.802 electricity on its own, 207 00:09:46.822 --> 00:09:47.882 mobility on its own. 208 00:09:48.003 --> 00:09:49.685 And now through the electrification, 209 00:09:50.322 --> 00:09:52.263 basically all these different systems, 210 00:09:52.302 --> 00:09:54.263 they use electricity to run. 211 00:09:54.482 --> 00:09:56.021 And this can bring a lot of, 212 00:09:56.341 --> 00:09:56.622 let's say, 213 00:09:56.841 --> 00:09:59.364 there are a lot of synergies that can evolve through this way. 214 00:09:59.529 --> 00:09:59.763 Also, 215 00:10:00.107 --> 00:10:00.404 let's say, 216 00:10:01.193 --> 00:10:03.771 with the possibility of making life easier for people. 217 00:10:04.708 --> 00:10:06.083 So that we, 218 00:10:06.864 --> 00:10:07.208 through, 219 00:10:07.583 --> 00:10:07.927 let's say, 220 00:10:08.505 --> 00:10:10.005 coupling these different sectors, 221 00:10:10.208 --> 00:10:11.943 we can also manage them. 222 00:10:12.394 --> 00:10:26.699 easier or let the technology manage them for us so that we in the end as the tenant or the one the one living in the building don't need to think that much about okay when when do I charge my 223 00:10:27.137 --> 00:10:39.645 EV when do I like how does my heat pump work but rather getting the best out of the energy that we have so maybe if we have a PV system on our roof then it's great because we reproduce our own electricity, 224 00:10:40.098 --> 00:10:41.254 and then we can be sure. 225 00:10:41.542 --> 00:10:43.383 that this electricity is used to, 226 00:10:44.204 --> 00:10:44.465 let's say, 227 00:10:44.524 --> 00:10:45.286 fuel our heating, 228 00:10:45.366 --> 00:10:47.747 our heat pump or our electric vehicle. 229 00:10:48.489 --> 00:10:48.610 So, 230 00:10:49.348 --> 00:10:49.473 yeah, 231 00:10:49.512 --> 00:10:56.317 I would say the social side of this or what matters to tenants as well is that it's a possibility of having a free mind, 232 00:10:56.598 --> 00:10:56.958 let's say, 233 00:10:57.661 --> 00:11:02.739 and being sure that the system works in itself if there's system integration. 234 00:11:03.520 --> 00:11:03.645 Yeah. 235 00:11:03.848 --> 00:11:06.130 Is it something that, 236 00:11:06.301 --> 00:11:06.567 let's say, 237 00:11:06.568 --> 00:11:08.286 the engineers are still looking at? 238 00:11:09.192 --> 00:11:10.036 And how, 239 00:11:10.598 --> 00:11:10.911 Vladimir? 240 00:11:11.094 --> 00:11:14.457 So from the engineering perspective and from the technical perspective, 241 00:11:14.639 --> 00:11:17.420 what users and energy systems are designed to do. 242 00:11:18.041 --> 00:11:23.346 So what energy systems are designed to do is they're designed to provide reliable, 243 00:11:23.564 --> 00:11:25.385 secure and affordable energy. 244 00:11:25.627 --> 00:11:28.947 So comparing energy to other goods and services, 245 00:11:29.119 --> 00:11:36.260 consumers usually derive a certain preference and individual value from different goods that they're buying and consuming. 246 00:11:36.353 --> 00:11:37.588 I don't think that energy is... 247 00:11:38.094 --> 00:11:39.996 falls within that category specifically. 248 00:11:40.256 --> 00:11:44.041 What we want is we want our electricity on, 249 00:11:44.362 --> 00:11:46.920 we want our homes heated or cooled, 250 00:11:47.123 --> 00:11:48.748 and we want to be able to move around. 251 00:11:49.428 --> 00:11:52.592 So it is the end uses that we should be meeting. 252 00:11:52.787 --> 00:11:53.928 Meeting those end uses, 253 00:11:54.108 --> 00:11:59.608 we should be able to find the technologies and the business models to fill those gaps. 254 00:11:59.952 --> 00:12:04.233 So the end uses are essentially the goal that we're pursuing. 255 00:12:04.358 --> 00:12:07.530 We want to meet those end uses that end. 256 00:12:07.750 --> 00:12:08.611 energy demand. 257 00:12:08.832 --> 00:12:12.795 So how we do it is we have multiple options. 258 00:12:13.455 --> 00:12:16.962 Let's say as we want to decarbonize our energy systems, 259 00:12:17.322 --> 00:12:21.986 we know that we're introducing more variable and intermittent renewable energy sources. 260 00:12:22.322 --> 00:12:24.291 And if we're looking only at one sector, 261 00:12:24.525 --> 00:12:29.791 we will be searching for the options and the solutions only in that sector. 262 00:12:29.884 --> 00:12:34.619 So let's say if there's more wind or more solar energy generation, 263 00:12:35.202 --> 00:12:37.444 and we're looking only at the electricity sector, 264 00:12:38.084 --> 00:12:41.008 then we would be thinking about installing more batteries. 265 00:12:41.188 --> 00:12:43.774 But why not installing more thermal energy storage, 266 00:12:43.914 --> 00:12:46.813 which is sometimes orders of magnitude cheaper? 267 00:12:46.993 --> 00:12:54.664 And if we can install thermal energy storage or use the energy storage in the sense of thermal isolation of our buildings, 268 00:12:55.024 --> 00:12:57.899 because when we slightly overheat our buildings, 269 00:12:58.180 --> 00:13:00.180 they act as certain buffers, 270 00:13:00.321 --> 00:13:03.274 we can think of these integrated approaches. 271 00:13:03.758 --> 00:13:08.182 in a way that finally the needs of consumers are met. 272 00:13:08.342 --> 00:13:09.162 And in doing so, 273 00:13:09.905 --> 00:13:12.584 we also have to think about how we deploy these technologies, 274 00:13:13.045 --> 00:13:21.881 because some of the technologies may have some upfront costs that are challenging for the wide public to adopt or to pay. 275 00:13:22.350 --> 00:13:26.162 So we have to think about not only the technical implementation, 276 00:13:26.225 --> 00:13:32.381 but also the business model and the economic implementation of these new technologies in our way towards more. 277 00:13:32.970 --> 00:13:37.053 affordable towards more decarbonized and sustainable energy systems. 278 00:13:38.350 --> 00:13:40.752 And that's exactly what the InstallRest, 279 00:13:40.908 --> 00:13:41.791 the life project, 280 00:13:41.830 --> 00:13:42.049 Luis, 281 00:13:42.072 --> 00:13:43.174 you mentioned is about, 282 00:13:43.228 --> 00:13:43.455 right? 283 00:13:43.510 --> 00:13:45.955 It's about the combination of business models, 284 00:13:46.010 --> 00:13:46.689 coordination, 285 00:13:46.775 --> 00:13:49.299 and really not only communication, 286 00:13:49.361 --> 00:13:55.611 but adoption really shape how heating actually works in multi-apartment buildings. 287 00:13:56.174 --> 00:13:58.236 But there is something you mentioned, 288 00:13:58.299 --> 00:13:58.658 Vladimir, 289 00:13:58.659 --> 00:14:00.033 it was about cooling. 290 00:14:00.678 --> 00:14:02.260 You come from Northern Macedonia, 291 00:14:02.340 --> 00:14:06.363 so you have like huge experience in very warm summers. 292 00:14:06.504 --> 00:14:07.383 And still, 293 00:14:07.926 --> 00:14:09.187 we talked about that earlier, 294 00:14:09.266 --> 00:14:16.953 but cooling is kind of forgotten and it's still treated as secondary in many discussions. 295 00:14:17.937 --> 00:14:20.562 Why is it a mistake, 296 00:14:20.578 --> 00:14:22.266 especially in multi-apartment buildings? 297 00:14:22.437 --> 00:14:29.453 And why are heat pumps a good start to conversation starter when we talk about cooling? 298 00:14:29.672 --> 00:14:29.812 Yeah, 299 00:14:29.922 --> 00:14:30.062 well... 300 00:14:30.282 --> 00:14:36.810 heat pumps maybe have gotten their name slightly unfortunately because they only show the heat aspect 301 00:14:37.306 --> 00:14:39.608 or they only indicate that there is a heat aspect. 302 00:14:40.009 --> 00:14:43.770 But heat pumps are essentially reversible refrigerators. 303 00:14:43.833 --> 00:14:46.458 They can either heat our home or cool our home, 304 00:14:46.794 --> 00:14:47.919 and they can do both things. 305 00:14:48.841 --> 00:14:51.341 And I wouldn't say that it's a forgotten question, 306 00:14:51.481 --> 00:14:53.395 but I think that it's a question that the public, 307 00:14:53.536 --> 00:14:54.302 policymakers, 308 00:14:54.364 --> 00:14:55.020 engineers, 309 00:14:55.130 --> 00:14:58.724 and essentially system planners are waking up more and more. 310 00:14:58.864 --> 00:15:00.005 As our climate changes, 311 00:15:00.255 --> 00:15:02.692 we are seeing abrupt heat waves. 312 00:15:02.895 --> 00:15:07.020 We're seeing temperatures that make it very difficult for people to go to work. 313 00:15:07.086 --> 00:15:07.587 to function, 314 00:15:07.607 --> 00:15:08.507 to go outside, 315 00:15:08.968 --> 00:15:10.349 to go about their everyday lives. 316 00:15:10.490 --> 00:15:11.793 And coming from North Macedonia, 317 00:15:11.910 --> 00:15:15.652 we've had summers that have had extremely high temperatures. 318 00:15:15.832 --> 00:15:16.613 For a while now, 319 00:15:16.793 --> 00:15:20.316 cooling has not been a question that we're waking up recently. 320 00:15:20.480 --> 00:15:23.910 It's been a question that we've grappled with for over the past decades. 321 00:15:24.035 --> 00:15:28.660 So maybe some of the experience can be directed and shared with other countries. 322 00:15:28.847 --> 00:15:30.707 But as our climate changes, 323 00:15:31.050 --> 00:15:32.550 I think that in the future, 324 00:15:32.785 --> 00:15:36.316 we will see the growing need for cooling energy. 325 00:15:37.062 --> 00:15:39.903 And this is an aspect that we have to take into consideration. 326 00:15:40.602 --> 00:15:41.563 So traditionally, 327 00:15:41.602 --> 00:15:43.582 we've been thinking about heating and cooling separately. 328 00:15:43.844 --> 00:15:45.864 But what we should be thinking about, 329 00:15:46.481 --> 00:15:52.887 we should be seeing them as different sides of the same point because we can solve them or meet them with the same technology, 330 00:15:53.121 --> 00:15:54.059 and that's heat pumps. 331 00:15:55.168 --> 00:16:02.871 So the idea is if we're thinking about introducing a gas boiler or a wood boiler or some other technology for heating, 332 00:16:03.231 --> 00:16:04.528 and we need to cool our home, 333 00:16:05.074 --> 00:16:05.965 then it's... 334 00:16:06.526 --> 00:16:11.168 introducing two different technologies to supply the different sides of the same point. 335 00:16:11.566 --> 00:16:12.328 But with heat pumps, 336 00:16:12.367 --> 00:16:15.086 we can do them with the same technology. 337 00:16:15.125 --> 00:16:16.468 And for multi-apartment buildings, 338 00:16:16.531 --> 00:16:17.047 especially, 339 00:16:17.109 --> 00:16:21.547 that's very important because we are not thinking about the infrastructure costs of one apartment. 340 00:16:21.586 --> 00:16:24.812 You're thinking about the infrastructure costs for the whole building. 341 00:16:25.015 --> 00:16:26.906 And that's not only a technical, 342 00:16:27.172 --> 00:16:30.390 the engineering perspective in the sense of electricity, 343 00:16:30.453 --> 00:16:31.094 heating and cooling, 344 00:16:31.109 --> 00:16:32.531 but that's also an architectural. 345 00:16:33.703 --> 00:16:36.345 How are we going to go about designing the buildings? 346 00:16:36.906 --> 00:16:41.347 What impact will it have on the outside look of buildings? 347 00:16:41.410 --> 00:16:50.496 And how will our cities change if we need to find individual solutions to cooling or maybe a centralized solution to cooling? 348 00:16:50.964 --> 00:16:54.683 So I think that heat pumps shine when this question comes to mind. 349 00:16:55.199 --> 00:16:59.511 And they solve this question simultaneously, 350 00:16:59.605 --> 00:17:00.886 both heating and cooling. 351 00:17:01.554 --> 00:17:02.935 That's really interesting. 352 00:17:02.976 --> 00:17:11.242 And what you said about the policymakers starting to take the cooling need into consideration is indeed growing. 353 00:17:11.766 --> 00:17:12.226 Last year, 354 00:17:12.328 --> 00:17:16.945 I saw the report for the European Commission really on summer energy parity. 355 00:17:17.133 --> 00:17:20.414 And whenever I presented it to policymakers, 356 00:17:21.070 --> 00:17:21.976 some of them were saying, 357 00:17:22.055 --> 00:17:22.180 oh, 358 00:17:22.289 --> 00:17:23.180 it's an eye opener. 359 00:17:23.258 --> 00:17:30.602 I didn't realize that heat waves and the heat in general is killing more people yearly than the cold is. 360 00:17:31.338 --> 00:17:32.420 But in Europe, 361 00:17:32.459 --> 00:17:33.220 we're talking about 362 00:17:33.601 --> 00:17:38.804 60,000 deaths every year over mortality because of the heat. 363 00:17:38.886 --> 00:17:44.050 So it's no longer becoming a luxury to have access to a cooling system. 364 00:17:44.113 --> 00:17:46.996 It's becoming like indispensable for human life, 365 00:17:47.035 --> 00:17:48.441 especially if you are older, 366 00:17:48.691 --> 00:17:49.941 if you are pregnant, 367 00:17:49.957 --> 00:17:51.676 if you have small children at home. 368 00:17:51.722 --> 00:17:56.676 So that is becoming like part of the mainstream equipment in a home, 369 00:17:56.847 --> 00:17:58.457 like a washing machine. 370 00:17:58.972 --> 00:18:00.066 But at the same time, 371 00:18:00.642 --> 00:18:09.207 The infrastructure that is needed to make it happen is a little bit more maybe visible or maybe a little bit bigger. 372 00:18:09.488 --> 00:18:12.754 Also because heat pumps are using a lot of electricity, 373 00:18:12.894 --> 00:18:14.598 they're using a lot of energy in general. 374 00:18:14.637 --> 00:18:19.098 So there is also conversations you have about the resilience of the grid, 375 00:18:19.207 --> 00:18:20.629 about like the affordability, 376 00:18:21.098 --> 00:18:25.223 making sure that more people can also access this kind of technologies. 377 00:18:25.770 --> 00:18:26.004 Louise, 378 00:18:26.020 --> 00:18:28.910 I would like to bring this to you since you... 379 00:18:29.238 --> 00:18:31.760 mostly work on multi-apartment buildings. 380 00:18:32.041 --> 00:18:33.243 And one of the, 381 00:18:33.684 --> 00:18:34.063 let's say, 382 00:18:34.243 --> 00:18:41.832 big challenge related to the cooling system is that it contributes to the urban heat island effect. 383 00:18:42.192 --> 00:18:42.848 So basically, 384 00:18:43.051 --> 00:18:44.215 one device can, 385 00:18:44.496 --> 00:18:48.582 since it blows hot air in the atmosphere, 386 00:18:48.942 --> 00:18:50.036 it overall, 387 00:18:50.645 --> 00:18:51.317 instead of cool, 388 00:18:51.473 --> 00:18:52.426 the neighborhood as well. 389 00:18:52.473 --> 00:18:55.004 So is it a conversation? 390 00:18:55.864 --> 00:18:57.692 How is the need for 391 00:18:57.998 --> 00:19:00.080 cooling being approached in Austria, 392 00:19:00.441 --> 00:19:01.761 especially in multi apartment building, 393 00:19:02.304 --> 00:19:05.847 is it becoming something like mainstream as well? 394 00:19:06.804 --> 00:19:07.304 Definitely. 395 00:19:07.750 --> 00:19:09.687 I think also in Austria, 396 00:19:10.531 --> 00:19:10.773 I mean, 397 00:19:10.812 --> 00:19:12.015 especially living in 398 00:19:12.570 --> 00:19:15.257 Vienna, a city where in the neighborhood that I live, 399 00:19:15.523 --> 00:19:16.023 a lot of, 400 00:19:16.664 --> 00:19:17.632 there's a lot of concrete, 401 00:19:18.086 --> 00:19:19.242 little trees and everything. 402 00:19:19.445 --> 00:19:25.710 It's something that definitely enters also the everyday conversation with friends, 403 00:19:25.773 --> 00:19:26.398 with colleagues, 404 00:19:26.586 --> 00:19:27.351 thinking about 405 00:19:28.014 --> 00:19:28.275 Yes, 406 00:19:28.536 --> 00:19:29.820 I'm looking forward now in winter. 407 00:19:29.1000 --> 00:19:31.183 I'm looking forward to the summer, 408 00:19:31.242 --> 00:19:31.543 but then, 409 00:19:31.705 --> 00:19:31.943 oh no, 410 00:19:32.025 --> 00:19:33.951 but then it will get that hot again. 411 00:19:34.091 --> 00:19:36.798 So it's something that since people... 412 00:19:37.853 --> 00:19:45.140 Just experience it directly and often also have little possibilities to forego this, 413 00:19:45.179 --> 00:19:49.726 because especially with the building structure in Vienna, 414 00:19:50.023 --> 00:19:50.265 with, 415 00:19:50.429 --> 00:19:50.867 for example, 416 00:19:51.085 --> 00:19:51.625 myself, 417 00:19:51.648 --> 00:19:52.531 I live in one of these, 418 00:19:52.585 --> 00:19:52.867 let's say, 419 00:19:52.929 --> 00:19:55.523 like old apartment buildings under the roof. 420 00:19:55.664 --> 00:19:58.039 So there's little we can do to cool. 421 00:19:59.195 --> 00:19:59.554 Of course, 422 00:19:59.555 --> 00:20:02.023 we do everything we can do with opening the windows in the evening. 423 00:20:02.195 --> 00:20:05.539 But if it's 20 degrees plus outside, 424 00:20:05.554 --> 00:20:06.117 then even then. 425 00:20:06.553 --> 00:20:08.175 it doesn't really cool down that much anymore. 426 00:20:08.275 --> 00:20:08.395 So 427 00:20:09.136 --> 00:20:10.818 I feel like that is, 428 00:20:10.857 --> 00:20:11.560 as Vladimir said, 429 00:20:11.599 --> 00:20:13.958 it's something that it's entering the conversation, 430 00:20:14.040 --> 00:20:19.185 but it's something that we need to stress more and more and show that this is just, 431 00:20:19.388 --> 00:20:28.388 and it will become a way more important benefit in the future for people if they also have a system that can at the same time also cool their building. 432 00:20:28.591 --> 00:20:29.294 And I mean, 433 00:20:29.310 --> 00:20:33.216 I can give an example from one of the demo sites that we have in Austria, 434 00:20:33.825 --> 00:20:35.701 where they are basically... 435 00:20:36.185 --> 00:20:51.990 implemented a heat pump through facade integration so they don't talk about active cooling because it's more of like a tempering of the facade let's say in summer so it's normally two degrees cooler than outside through the system which might 436 00:20:52.045 --> 00:21:04.389 not sound that much but there was one instance when there were some technical problems with the whole system and it's like it stopped working for one or two days and instantly people were calling 437 00:21:05.041 --> 00:21:06.302 It's so hot in my room. 438 00:21:06.382 --> 00:21:08.064 What did happen and everything? 439 00:21:08.586 --> 00:21:11.589 So they could see that even though one thinks, 440 00:21:11.629 --> 00:21:11.828 okay, 441 00:21:11.829 --> 00:21:12.648 it's not a big difference, 442 00:21:12.649 --> 00:21:13.933 it really does make a difference. 443 00:21:13.972 --> 00:21:17.910 And it affects their living comfort in summer dramatically. 444 00:21:18.472 --> 00:21:21.035 Maybe it was affecting like humidity or something. 445 00:21:21.097 --> 00:21:23.175 And that was leading to a feeling, 446 00:21:23.191 --> 00:21:25.644 a greater feeling of discomfort or something like that. 447 00:21:25.847 --> 00:21:26.003 Well, 448 00:21:26.066 --> 00:21:26.441 exactly. 449 00:21:26.503 --> 00:21:27.379 Even these two degrees, 450 00:21:27.380 --> 00:21:29.332 they made a difference in their comfort. 451 00:21:29.582 --> 00:21:29.738 Yeah. 452 00:21:30.269 --> 00:21:34.613 One of the big challenges or maybe the biggest challenges. 453 00:21:35.105 --> 00:21:41.210 is the upfront costs for equipping buildings with this kind of comprehensive solutions. 454 00:21:41.632 --> 00:21:41.831 Again, 455 00:21:41.952 --> 00:21:47.581 here we are not talking about detached house being trying to get equipped with some heat pump, 456 00:21:47.636 --> 00:21:52.019 but really we're talking about collective heat pump or collective system to heat and cool, 457 00:21:52.503 --> 00:21:52.737 right? 458 00:21:52.987 --> 00:21:54.519 Yet the upfront costs, 459 00:21:55.019 --> 00:21:57.363 they remain one of the biggest barriers. 460 00:21:57.784 --> 00:22:03.331 Why is it still so expensive to install such systems in collective buildings? 461 00:22:03.921 --> 00:22:05.243 And who's carrying these costs? 462 00:22:06.243 --> 00:22:06.364 So 463 00:22:06.704 --> 00:22:08.044 I would say in Austria, 464 00:22:08.045 --> 00:22:08.407 of course, 465 00:22:08.446 --> 00:22:11.868 it's a complex things that play into these high upfront costs. 466 00:22:11.891 --> 00:22:12.009 So, 467 00:22:12.048 --> 00:22:12.290 I mean, 468 00:22:12.291 --> 00:22:13.688 you pay the heat pump itself, 469 00:22:13.751 --> 00:22:14.571 the installation, 470 00:22:15.173 --> 00:22:17.376 possibly you need to drill into the ground. 471 00:22:17.454 --> 00:22:19.759 Possibly you will need to finance renovation measures. 472 00:22:20.243 --> 00:22:21.102 I think in Austria, 473 00:22:21.540 --> 00:22:25.368 the installation is a big part of these upfront costs. 474 00:22:25.415 --> 00:22:27.821 But I know from other colleagues in Poland, 475 00:22:27.868 --> 00:22:29.165 I think it doesn't play that. 476 00:22:29.737 --> 00:22:47.411 isn't that huge of a role so I think it really depends also on the context one is in but of course it's still one big thing like people maybe don't know yet that well what to expect so I think there's quite some not say skepticism but rather little experience which 477 00:22:47.536 --> 00:22:58.849 also deters people from from going because it's something new and they're not sure does my building need to be upgraded in some way or the other what will what will it cost me throughout the lifetime and so on so 478 00:22:59.273 --> 00:23:05.139 I think this is also why some people might reframe or rather be like rather slow to adopt. 479 00:23:06.178 --> 00:23:10.842 And this is something that we also as part of the project InstaRest we want to work on. 480 00:23:10.905 --> 00:23:17.264 So giving people more tools to easily decide or understand what will it cost, 481 00:23:17.311 --> 00:23:25.202 what will I need to do and so on to make it easier for them or more predictable for them to know how to do the investment. 482 00:23:25.795 --> 00:23:25.999 Yeah. 483 00:23:26.369 --> 00:23:28.410 Also because there are so many differences, 484 00:23:28.512 --> 00:23:30.094 like the installation, 485 00:23:31.254 --> 00:23:38.641 it can go from $5,000 to $20,000 just for one individual apartment or house or something. 486 00:23:39.320 --> 00:23:41.227 So the difference is absolutely huge. 487 00:23:41.242 --> 00:23:45.367 So you need to know if you are making the right choice. 488 00:23:45.492 --> 00:23:47.023 It's such a big investment. 489 00:23:47.086 --> 00:23:48.195 It's just a lot of money. 490 00:23:49.258 --> 00:23:51.133 It means that probably... 491 00:23:51.529 --> 00:23:54.532 most of the people cannot make the purchase immediately. 492 00:23:54.772 --> 00:24:01.017 So how do you see that happen in the context you are experiencing and what you are observing as well? 493 00:24:02.102 --> 00:24:02.243 Yeah, 494 00:24:02.602 --> 00:24:03.462 so this is a very, 495 00:24:03.657 --> 00:24:06.641 very important and very difficult question that you're addressing. 496 00:24:06.665 --> 00:24:10.595 And maybe it's at the heart of the challenges of heat pump deployment. 497 00:24:11.454 --> 00:24:14.329 It ties to everything from misinformation to... 498 00:24:14.877 --> 00:24:19.524 poor deployment and poor experiences in the past that may hinder the future experiences. 499 00:24:19.660 --> 00:24:25.531 The lack of experience of some installers that take on the deployment and installation of heat pumps that may lead, 500 00:24:25.609 --> 00:24:27.211 because of the steep learning curve, 501 00:24:27.227 --> 00:24:29.875 that may lead to higher installation costs. 502 00:24:30.211 --> 00:24:35.938 But it's also a question of the power purchasing parity of the households that are essentially buying, 503 00:24:35.1000 --> 00:24:37.453 because across Europe... 504 00:24:38.324 --> 00:24:41.308 we see households with highly different standards, 505 00:24:41.747 --> 00:24:45.191 standards of living and average salaries and the costs. 506 00:24:45.331 --> 00:24:51.335 And we may adjust those investment costs based on the purchasing power of households, 507 00:24:51.398 --> 00:24:53.640 but it's still a huge difference. 508 00:24:53.718 --> 00:25:00.585 And I think that one of the underlying problems here comes from the fact that people don't think within 509 00:25:01.273 --> 00:25:02.054 10-year intervals. 510 00:25:02.304 --> 00:25:07.492 And it's very difficult to have a spreadsheet of economic calculation in your mind. 511 00:25:08.180 --> 00:25:12.720 Because when you're looking at quotas from different installers of heat pumps, 512 00:25:12.943 --> 00:25:17.122 and you're finding that the cost for the installment would be around 513 00:25:17.685 --> 00:25:18.404 6, 7, 514 00:25:18.701 --> 00:25:20.201 8 thousand euros, 515 00:25:20.341 --> 00:25:20.583 maybe. 516 00:25:21.263 --> 00:25:22.763 And you're comparing that to, 517 00:25:23.302 --> 00:25:23.685 I don't know, 518 00:25:23.982 --> 00:25:25.091 a pellet boiler, 519 00:25:25.169 --> 00:25:25.888 a wood boiler. 520 00:25:26.716 --> 00:25:32.232 And I'm thinking about pellets and wood because we don't have a secondary natural gas distribution system. 521 00:25:32.310 --> 00:25:37.591 And natural gas is not used in North Macedonia for heating in almost all. 522 00:25:37.848 --> 00:25:38.188 cities, 523 00:25:38.349 --> 00:25:39.290 with the exception of a few, 524 00:25:39.970 --> 00:25:42.873 and you compare it to the cost of a wood boiler, 525 00:25:43.416 --> 00:25:45.076 it's hugely different. 526 00:25:45.255 --> 00:25:46.798 And that deters people. 527 00:25:47.119 --> 00:25:49.939 So the high upfront costs deters people. 528 00:25:49.978 --> 00:25:52.025 And that's one of the main challenges. 529 00:25:52.705 --> 00:25:57.150 But then we have to take into account then what happens with the lifecycle and the usage. 530 00:25:57.228 --> 00:25:58.947 And I will go back to a point that you made, 531 00:25:58.962 --> 00:25:59.244 Maureen, 532 00:25:59.853 --> 00:26:00.166 earlier. 533 00:26:00.197 --> 00:26:00.728 And you said, 534 00:26:00.978 --> 00:26:03.790 but heat pumps consume a lot of energy. 535 00:26:04.416 --> 00:26:04.697 And yes, 536 00:26:04.759 --> 00:26:05.212 that's true. 537 00:26:05.728 --> 00:26:06.119 But that's... 538 00:26:06.616 --> 00:26:10.540 It's subconsciously one of the myths that we take on every day. 539 00:26:10.740 --> 00:26:11.060 And yes, 540 00:26:11.079 --> 00:26:12.501 they consume a lot of energy, 541 00:26:13.040 --> 00:26:18.204 but we also have to say that they consume three to five times less energy than the alternative. 542 00:26:19.267 --> 00:26:21.134 And when we put it into that perspective, 543 00:26:21.228 --> 00:26:22.548 then it's not a lot of energy. 544 00:26:22.697 --> 00:26:23.134 Essentially, 545 00:26:23.165 --> 00:26:27.837 what we're saying is they will save a lot of energy compared to wood, 546 00:26:28.025 --> 00:26:28.759 natural gas, 547 00:26:29.040 --> 00:26:29.337 oil, 548 00:26:29.681 --> 00:26:31.494 or whatever other alternative. 549 00:26:31.634 --> 00:26:33.228 They actually save a lot of energy. 550 00:26:33.462 --> 00:26:33.603 Yes, 551 00:26:33.604 --> 00:26:35.040 they will consume a lot of electricity, 552 00:26:35.400 --> 00:26:35.822 of course, 553 00:26:36.072 --> 00:26:36.181 but 554 00:26:36.880 --> 00:26:39.200 they will save a lot of fossil fuel usage. 555 00:26:39.620 --> 00:26:46.802 So I think that we have to find ways of communicating the additional benefits of heat pumps beyond the upfront investment costs. 556 00:26:46.803 --> 00:26:49.466 We have to talk about the costs on a monthly basis. 557 00:26:49.825 --> 00:26:52.106 We have to talk about the savings. 558 00:26:52.107 --> 00:26:53.481 We have to talk about the comfort. 559 00:26:53.700 --> 00:26:56.309 The European Union and North Macedonia, 560 00:26:56.372 --> 00:26:59.138 although a country that is not part of the European Union, 561 00:26:59.606 --> 00:27:01.278 but the Western Balkan region as well, 562 00:27:01.731 --> 00:27:03.669 we're having an aging population. 563 00:27:03.825 --> 00:27:04.044 And. 564 00:27:04.408 --> 00:27:06.290 I'm talking right now about the Western Balkans, 565 00:27:06.390 --> 00:27:11.054 where we have traditionally been using a lot of wood for heating. 566 00:27:12.034 --> 00:27:17.585 And we see a lot of these aging households with older people living alone. 567 00:27:17.741 --> 00:27:25.241 And they have to take care of chopping wood and preparing the stove and preparing the boiler and doing all the manual and physical work. 568 00:27:25.288 --> 00:27:27.429 And it's a question of comfort. 569 00:27:28.054 --> 00:27:30.116 It's a question of different type of energy, 570 00:27:30.335 --> 00:27:32.194 poverty beyond economic. 571 00:27:32.808 --> 00:27:38.010 So these are challenges that we're almost single-handedly solving by this new technology. 572 00:27:38.288 --> 00:27:38.549 And yes, 573 00:27:38.569 --> 00:27:39.889 there are challenges to deploy it. 574 00:27:40.249 --> 00:27:40.608 But this, 575 00:27:41.006 --> 00:27:41.647 as Louis said, 576 00:27:41.710 --> 00:27:44.467 this InsolRes project is intended to do that. 577 00:27:44.514 --> 00:27:46.592 So it's a huge challenge to take on, 578 00:27:46.631 --> 00:27:47.967 but worth taking on. 579 00:27:47.991 --> 00:27:48.952 You know, 580 00:27:48.999 --> 00:27:56.311 that's really great that you bring the example of North Macedonia and people collecting wood for heating or even for cooking. 581 00:27:56.546 --> 00:27:59.639 Some would argue that collecting wood is free. 582 00:28:00.030 --> 00:28:00.155 So, 583 00:28:00.561 --> 00:28:00.796 you know, 584 00:28:00.936 --> 00:28:02.202 whenever you add some... 585 00:28:02.640 --> 00:28:05.983 The cost of a new technology that adds a cost, 586 00:28:06.064 --> 00:28:09.265 so that adds a lot of new challenges. 587 00:28:09.726 --> 00:28:11.429 Maybe it's not affordable and so on. 588 00:28:12.530 --> 00:28:12.710 Well, 589 00:28:12.913 --> 00:28:16.398 but you're absolutely right about the quality of life and the comfort, 590 00:28:16.515 --> 00:28:23.101 not having to carry huge pieces of wood or pallets or everything. 591 00:28:23.663 --> 00:28:28.382 And there is also this summer aspect that is absolutely fundamental, 592 00:28:28.491 --> 00:28:28.679 right? 593 00:28:28.882 --> 00:28:31.101 So how do you manage to kind of... 594 00:28:31.260 --> 00:28:32.802 address these concerns. 595 00:28:32.942 --> 00:28:33.243 Because, 596 00:28:33.682 --> 00:28:33.923 I mean, 597 00:28:34.022 --> 00:28:35.044 I totally get it. 598 00:28:35.143 --> 00:28:36.704 Like when someone says I'm 70, 599 00:28:36.705 --> 00:28:38.028 75, 600 00:28:39.325 --> 00:28:50.372 why should I make an investment for something that will show up over the years and maybe in 10 or 20 years when I can have access to something very cheap now? 601 00:28:51.075 --> 00:28:52.794 Maybe not energy efficient at all, 602 00:28:53.403 --> 00:28:56.841 but very cheap now when they are aging as well. 603 00:28:57.384 --> 00:28:58.885 Maybe that's a question for Louise, 604 00:28:59.026 --> 00:29:02.670 given that it's more a social science aspect. 605 00:29:02.768 --> 00:29:03.030 But 606 00:29:03.530 --> 00:29:06.713 Vladimir, you must also have something to share. 607 00:29:06.831 --> 00:29:06.956 So, 608 00:29:07.010 --> 00:29:07.292 Louise. 609 00:29:08.096 --> 00:29:08.315 Yes, 610 00:29:08.393 --> 00:29:08.659 I mean, 611 00:29:08.674 --> 00:29:10.120 I think Vladimir can go more in the 612 00:29:10.916 --> 00:29:13.081 North Macedonian example into that. 613 00:29:13.213 --> 00:29:15.198 I think one thing or one, 614 00:29:16.166 --> 00:29:16.463 let's say, 615 00:29:16.838 --> 00:29:17.151 bigger, 616 00:29:17.979 --> 00:29:18.698 not a problem, 617 00:29:18.745 --> 00:29:21.542 but one phenomena that we discuss here is that, 618 00:29:22.292 --> 00:29:22.792 of course, 619 00:29:22.916 --> 00:29:23.151 it's a... 620 00:29:23.515 --> 00:29:41.995 process of installing the heat pump and it starts with when to install it and here i think it's there are some let's say windows of opportunities how to get into the game so of course when the when let's say when the existing system breaks down or maybe when someone worse renovation 621 00:29:42.057 --> 00:29:52.511 works become necessary that's let's say the window of opportunity that opens up for let's say people to think about maybe i could install a install the heat pump and i think here it's important at 622 00:29:52.932 --> 00:29:53.238 to be 623 00:29:53.946 --> 00:29:55.007 be there at the right moment. 624 00:29:55.067 --> 00:29:57.748 So to have the resources, 625 00:29:57.788 --> 00:30:02.231 the support for housing owners that think about maybe installing a heat pump, 626 00:30:04.332 --> 00:30:05.032 to have them there, 627 00:30:05.152 --> 00:30:06.553 to take them by the hand, 628 00:30:06.554 --> 00:30:08.854 to explain to them like the things we discussed, 629 00:30:08.894 --> 00:30:09.875 what will it cost? 630 00:30:09.975 --> 00:30:12.717 What are the things that might need to be done with your building? 631 00:30:12.777 --> 00:30:13.637 How will it work? 632 00:30:14.177 --> 00:30:17.179 What are the operation costs of it and so on? 633 00:30:17.759 --> 00:30:21.121 So there has to be enough support there, 634 00:30:21.221 --> 00:30:22.342 enough materials there. 635 00:30:22.942 --> 00:30:24.443 to support the housing owners here. 636 00:30:24.623 --> 00:30:29.246 And we have another example of our demo sites from the Netherlands here, 637 00:30:29.707 --> 00:30:30.707 which have developed, 638 00:30:30.888 --> 00:30:32.669 they call it the Heat Comparator Platform, 639 00:30:33.169 --> 00:30:36.111 which is a very easygoing, 640 00:30:36.331 --> 00:30:43.797 low entry website for households to basically let's check out what heat pump would fit to my house, 641 00:30:43.917 --> 00:30:47.339 what heat pump would fit to my needs and enter this information, 642 00:30:47.619 --> 00:30:51.022 like little information about the house that is not expert level, 643 00:30:51.142 --> 00:30:51.342 but 644 00:30:52.130 --> 00:30:53.111 easy for everyone to know, 645 00:30:53.531 --> 00:31:00.657 enter this into a website and then they get different heat pumps that would fit to their needs. 646 00:31:00.817 --> 00:31:03.158 So they can already inform themselves before, 647 00:31:03.239 --> 00:31:03.619 let's say. 648 00:31:04.159 --> 00:31:05.140 And on top of that, 649 00:31:05.600 --> 00:31:06.901 talking about coordination, 650 00:31:07.161 --> 00:31:14.607 this platform also gives the possibility to find an installer near you who could install that heat pump. 651 00:31:15.087 --> 00:31:17.729 So there we have the whole coordination process, 652 00:31:17.769 --> 00:31:18.510 the whole process, 653 00:31:19.082 --> 00:31:19.642 Thinking about, 654 00:31:19.682 --> 00:31:19.942 okay, 655 00:31:20.062 --> 00:31:20.602 what could I do? 656 00:31:20.642 --> 00:31:21.363 How could I do it? 657 00:31:21.423 --> 00:31:24.924 What do I need to make it easily accessible or like, 658 00:31:25.924 --> 00:31:26.064 yeah, 659 00:31:26.104 --> 00:31:31.726 to even the whole process easily for housing owners and have the right tools there. 660 00:31:32.406 --> 00:31:33.286 Vladimir, 661 00:31:33.526 --> 00:31:34.546 how have you... 662 00:31:34.987 --> 00:31:35.127 Yeah, 663 00:31:35.407 --> 00:31:42.169 so when I described the situation in North Macedonia with people using a lot of wood for heating, 664 00:31:42.469 --> 00:31:46.730 so how are you addressing the situation there? 665 00:31:47.030 --> 00:31:48.171 When at the same time, 666 00:31:48.431 --> 00:31:51.013 one of your objectives is to make sure that Macedonia, 667 00:31:51.113 --> 00:31:53.696 since it doesn't have a big gas infrastructure, 668 00:31:53.836 --> 00:31:58.760 leapfrogs from wood basically or solid fuel fuels to heat pumps. 669 00:31:59.260 --> 00:32:02.423 So what is and how is the strategy looking like? 670 00:32:03.263 --> 00:32:03.383 Yeah, 671 00:32:03.464 --> 00:32:03.784 thank you. 672 00:32:04.264 --> 00:32:06.586 That's a very interesting and very valuable point. 673 00:32:07.327 --> 00:32:10.750 So all comes down to cost at this point. 674 00:32:11.690 --> 00:32:12.711 We're talking about wood, 675 00:32:12.851 --> 00:32:15.934 but we're also talking about wood that has an inherent cost. 676 00:32:16.354 --> 00:32:19.355 So households have to purchase the heating wood. 677 00:32:19.976 --> 00:32:20.556 And right now, 678 00:32:20.636 --> 00:32:25.778 when we're talking to households that are changing their existing wood heating systems with heat pumps, 679 00:32:26.618 --> 00:32:27.559 they tell us two things. 680 00:32:27.839 --> 00:32:30.200 It comes down to costs and it comes down to comfort. 681 00:32:31.220 --> 00:32:42.145 Because we have slightly oversized houses that are non-uniformly heated when you're thinking about using a single heating stove or a heating boiler, 682 00:32:42.365 --> 00:32:44.706 and you don't have a central radiator system that 683 00:32:45.174 --> 00:32:46.375 uniformly heats the house, 684 00:32:47.016 --> 00:32:49.718 then you have some rooms that are overheated, 685 00:32:50.038 --> 00:32:51.580 others that are underheated. 686 00:32:51.760 --> 00:32:53.561 And you have that comfort challenge. 687 00:32:53.682 --> 00:32:56.444 And then you have the comfort challenge of dealing with the fuel wood. 688 00:32:56.824 --> 00:32:58.025 And on top of that, 689 00:32:58.145 --> 00:33:01.008 you have the essentially very high wood cost. 690 00:33:01.028 --> 00:33:02.649 So over the past years, 691 00:33:02.829 --> 00:33:06.853 the cost of heating wood has grown significantly and it's becoming a burden. 692 00:33:07.073 --> 00:33:12.538 And when households changed from logwood to heating pallets and they found... 693 00:33:13.026 --> 00:33:15.148 They started dealing with supply chain constraints. 694 00:33:15.488 --> 00:33:20.291 And there was a time when it was very difficult as Europe was getting rid of 695 00:33:20.712 --> 00:33:21.673 Russian natural gas. 696 00:33:22.293 --> 00:33:27.737 Then the market for pellets expanded and then it contracted nationally. 697 00:33:27.877 --> 00:33:30.759 So although we had producers of heating pellets, 698 00:33:30.879 --> 00:33:33.902 people couldn't get their hands on heating pellets. 699 00:33:34.482 --> 00:33:37.464 It was a challenge from that perspective. 700 00:33:37.504 --> 00:33:38.185 And it became, 701 00:33:38.325 --> 00:33:38.745 of course, 702 00:33:38.785 --> 00:33:39.726 supply and demand changing. 703 00:33:39.826 --> 00:33:41.967 overlap somewhere and you have in the equilibrium, 704 00:33:41.987 --> 00:33:44.387 you have an essentially a higher price. 705 00:33:44.927 --> 00:33:47.248 So this is where as Louise mentioned, 706 00:33:47.608 --> 00:33:50.509 you have to step in at the right time with the right solution. 707 00:33:51.069 --> 00:33:54.570 Right now in North Macedonia that solution are incentives, 708 00:33:55.750 --> 00:34:02.732 form of grants that cover a certain percentage of the investment of the heat pumps that range between 709 00:34:03.172 --> 00:34:04.853 20 to 30%, 710 00:34:04.854 --> 00:34:08.994 depending on the type of grant that is given and some are local, 711 00:34:09.374 --> 00:34:09.654 grants, 712 00:34:09.694 --> 00:34:14.097 some are national grants and some are grants given by international funding bodies. 713 00:34:15.197 --> 00:34:18.639 But what this has done over the past years, 714 00:34:19.279 --> 00:34:21.941 coupled with the lack of natural gas infrastructure, 715 00:34:22.361 --> 00:34:30.045 it has shown that we can think about a system without expanding the use of natural gas. 716 00:34:30.085 --> 00:34:38.470 And we can think about supplying and the energy demand without essentially expanding or even in the long term reducing the share of 717 00:34:38.850 --> 00:34:40.751 fossil fuels in that sector. 718 00:34:41.151 --> 00:34:41.271 So, 719 00:34:41.571 --> 00:34:42.612 in the heating sector, 720 00:34:43.232 --> 00:34:50.215 we're using or we're on a trajectory of using less fossil fuels and heating in North Macedonia. 721 00:34:50.395 --> 00:34:52.696 And while the natural gas infrastructure, 722 00:34:53.016 --> 00:35:02.481 primary natural gas infrastructure is expanding as time goes by and we see the fluctuations of natural gas prices and the import dependency that it creates, 723 00:35:02.921 --> 00:35:03.721 in my opinion, 724 00:35:03.761 --> 00:35:05.262 it doesn't make any sense 725 00:35:05.878 --> 00:35:10.561 to invest in natural gas infrastructure for heating individual homes. 726 00:35:11.009 --> 00:35:18.832 Because then we would have the challenges that are on the other side faced by European companies right now. 727 00:35:19.232 --> 00:35:20.513 So companies, 728 00:35:20.773 --> 00:35:21.473 heating companies, 729 00:35:21.493 --> 00:35:22.154 installers, 730 00:35:22.834 --> 00:35:30.637 designers and so on that have had significant experience with natural gas are now tackling to move from natural gas to heat pumps. 731 00:35:30.777 --> 00:35:40.241 On the contrary in North Macedonia there were a lot of companies given the lack of natural gas infrastructure could either focus on wood pellets or heat pumps. 732 00:35:40.681 --> 00:35:45.023 So that has given time for the industry to mature to a certain extent. 733 00:35:45.464 --> 00:35:53.628 And now we're at a point where they're maturing to think about how they can expand the deployment of heat pumps even further in the sense that, 734 00:35:53.808 --> 00:35:53.988 yes, 735 00:35:54.048 --> 00:35:58.511 households face these high upfront costs and we have to think about innovative business models. 736 00:35:58.691 --> 00:36:00.772 How do we offer these heat pumps, 737 00:36:00.812 --> 00:36:05.335 this technology that we're offering to make it affordable to even more households? 738 00:36:05.395 --> 00:36:09.437 And this is a lesson that we can learn not only about the heating sector in general. 739 00:36:09.477 --> 00:36:10.258 in North Macedonia, 740 00:36:10.259 --> 00:36:16.742 but there have been multiple studies showing that even countries right now that are facing significant energy poverty, 741 00:36:16.822 --> 00:36:19.324 not energy poverty in the sense of energy affordability, 742 00:36:19.824 --> 00:36:22.506 but energy poverty in the sense of lack of infrastructure, 743 00:36:22.926 --> 00:36:23.526 especially in 744 00:36:23.987 --> 00:36:24.807 Africa, let's say. 745 00:36:25.288 --> 00:36:32.492 There have been studies showing that you can leapfrog the dependency on natural gas and go straight to using cleaner, 746 00:36:32.633 --> 00:36:34.154 sustainable technologies. 747 00:36:34.234 --> 00:36:38.857 And this is valid not only for the 748 00:36:39.277 --> 00:36:47.339 We have a lot of developing countries that are seeing rising shares of electric vehicles far beyond those of internal combustion vehicles. 749 00:36:47.379 --> 00:36:51.921 So it's a lesson that we should be thinking about and a lesson that we should learn in time. 750 00:36:53.021 --> 00:36:53.161 Yeah, 751 00:36:53.201 --> 00:36:56.162 I find it incredibly powerful what you say because 752 00:36:56.542 --> 00:36:58.703 I've seen the same series of articles, 753 00:36:58.743 --> 00:36:59.063 I think, 754 00:36:59.103 --> 00:37:04.925 in you about the number of developing countries who are leapfrogging to clean mobility. 755 00:37:05.637 --> 00:37:05.877 I mean, 756 00:37:05.897 --> 00:37:07.498 it just makes more sense. 757 00:37:07.559 --> 00:37:08.960 Like they don't need to import, 758 00:37:08.980 --> 00:37:10.421 they don't need to pay taxes. 759 00:37:10.721 --> 00:37:13.123 You can recharge at home their infrastructure. 760 00:37:13.203 --> 00:37:30.636 So let's apply it really to the indoor heating and cooling needs because the heat pumps have a funny name for something that you can actually use for cooling and that is becoming absolutely indispensable for living our 761 00:37:30.696 --> 00:37:31.377 lives in Europe. 762 00:37:32.553 --> 00:37:36.396 But now we are reaching the end of this episode. 763 00:37:36.416 --> 00:37:45.324 So I would like you to go with one challenge or one assumption that you would like policymakers, 764 00:37:45.384 --> 00:37:47.145 whether at the local level, 765 00:37:47.225 --> 00:37:47.846 national level, 766 00:37:48.126 --> 00:37:48.806 or European level, 767 00:37:49.287 --> 00:37:50.908 or housing providers, 768 00:37:51.168 --> 00:37:56.713 something you would like them to question or some assumption you'd like them to overcome. 769 00:37:56.893 --> 00:37:57.253 Louise, 770 00:37:57.313 --> 00:38:01.637 would you like to start something like a myth that needs to be undone? 771 00:38:03.041 --> 00:38:03.241 Yes, 772 00:38:03.281 --> 00:38:09.563 I think funnily enough within the project that's something that Vladimir developed is heat pump fact check. 773 00:38:09.703 --> 00:38:13.684 So we actually have listed some myths that are out there about heat pumps. 774 00:38:13.864 --> 00:38:14.244 So yeah, 775 00:38:14.304 --> 00:38:29.508 there's I'll pick out one here and I think one big misconception for let's keep it more on let's say like individual housing owner level mustn't only be single family homes but also multi apartment buildings is that heat 776 00:38:29.568 --> 00:38:32.269 pumps do not work in existing buildings 777 00:38:32.793 --> 00:38:35.154 because maybe the efficiency is not good enough, 778 00:38:35.174 --> 00:38:36.654 they're not well enough insulated. 779 00:38:36.914 --> 00:38:41.555 And this might have been the case in the past when heat pumps were still, 780 00:38:41.756 --> 00:38:42.036 let's say, 781 00:38:42.116 --> 00:38:44.436 more in the whole developing phase. 782 00:38:44.536 --> 00:38:47.457 But now there have been a lot of technical advancements made. 783 00:38:47.497 --> 00:38:54.919 So it is possible to install a heat pump also maybe not in the most efficient building with highest insulation, 784 00:38:55.139 --> 00:38:57.280 also in multi-apartment buildings. 785 00:38:57.400 --> 00:38:57.800 Of course, 786 00:38:57.820 --> 00:38:58.440 there's always, 787 00:38:58.1000 --> 00:38:59.260 let's say, 788 00:38:59.261 --> 00:39:01.301 a balance you need to find between installation 789 00:39:01.549 --> 00:39:07.731 What should I insulate in order to increase the efficiency of the heat pump and what works well how it is, 790 00:39:07.871 --> 00:39:08.211 let's say. 791 00:39:08.451 --> 00:39:13.492 So there mustn't always be changes in the radiators and so on. 792 00:39:14.052 --> 00:39:16.493 Often they are sized well enough already. 793 00:39:17.173 --> 00:39:17.293 So 794 00:39:17.653 --> 00:39:24.115 I feel like that's this misconception that so much has to be done before installing a heat pump, 795 00:39:24.335 --> 00:39:27.236 which of course always depends on the individual house. 796 00:39:27.296 --> 00:39:28.896 Still some houses need a lot to be done. 797 00:39:31.405 --> 00:39:32.406 let's say it has the fee of, 798 00:39:32.486 --> 00:39:32.606 oh, 799 00:39:32.626 --> 00:39:36.829 there are so many other costs that will be there before I can install a heat pump. 800 00:39:37.289 --> 00:39:40.391 So I think that's one thing that should be debunked. 801 00:39:41.352 --> 00:39:41.532 Yeah, 802 00:39:41.592 --> 00:39:42.012 totally. 803 00:39:42.333 --> 00:39:42.453 Yeah. 804 00:39:42.593 --> 00:39:45.675 Something I heard recently with your house, 805 00:39:46.315 --> 00:39:52.640 you will never access comfort over 17 degrees because of the quality of your house or something. 806 00:39:53.200 --> 00:39:53.820 I think that's, 807 00:39:54.481 --> 00:39:54.801 I mean, 808 00:39:55.041 --> 00:39:57.063 when my friends shared that with me, 809 00:39:57.203 --> 00:39:57.743 I was like, 810 00:39:58.344 --> 00:40:00.405 maybe you should consult somebody else because it 811 00:40:00.665 --> 00:40:06.193 Seems like one of these big misconceptions coming from a potential installers. 812 00:40:06.594 --> 00:40:07.015 But anyway, 813 00:40:07.175 --> 00:40:07.555 Vladimir, 814 00:40:07.756 --> 00:40:11.121 what would be your misconception you'd like to debunk? 815 00:40:11.935 --> 00:40:14.077 So before debunking any misconceptions, 816 00:40:14.117 --> 00:40:20.402 I would like to thank Louise for making that point because it's a very important and valid point. 817 00:40:21.003 --> 00:40:35.735 And we are seeing countless of examples where houses change their source of heating and they're using their old existing radiators and they feel comfortable during these cold winters that we have in North Macedonia as well. 818 00:40:36.235 --> 00:40:38.858 But I would like to 819 00:40:40.867 --> 00:40:43.468 from the Paris Agreement in 2015. 820 00:40:43.968 --> 00:40:59.792 We're right now at a very strong tipping point where international scene and international relations are risking the global society and community to maybe negatively impact our previous ambitions for climate change mitigation. 821 00:40:59.952 --> 00:41:09.455 And one of the arguments where this is most seen is that climate change mitigation or reducing greenhouse gas emissions comes at a cost. 822 00:41:10.951 --> 00:41:11.071 So 823 00:41:11.811 --> 00:41:14.593 I think that this is a myth that we have to debunk, 824 00:41:14.633 --> 00:41:16.233 that although there are costs, 825 00:41:16.333 --> 00:41:19.055 we have to be thinking about not only heat pumps, 826 00:41:19.115 --> 00:41:22.896 but any of the technologies that we're deploying for a more sustainable future. 827 00:41:24.097 --> 00:41:28.579 So we have to think about the whole system cost or the whole societal cost. 828 00:41:28.779 --> 00:41:32.580 This is essentially very much pronounced in North Macedonia, 829 00:41:32.881 --> 00:41:38.523 where the use of fossil fuels or even old inefficient heating systems of wood 830 00:41:38.743 --> 00:41:40.824 contribute significantly to air pollution, 831 00:41:40.924 --> 00:41:42.084 to local air pollution. 832 00:41:43.145 --> 00:41:46.406 And this incurs additional costs to health systems, 833 00:41:46.466 --> 00:41:48.267 to other aspects of the economic system, 834 00:41:48.587 --> 00:41:49.948 reduced productivity, 835 00:41:50.048 --> 00:41:51.088 economic productivity. 836 00:41:51.288 --> 00:41:58.411 And these are just one aspect of the multiple costs that are associated with the use of inefficient fossil fuels, 837 00:41:58.892 --> 00:42:01.313 old energy elements or energy systems. 838 00:42:01.493 --> 00:42:06.615 And by introducing sustainable and cleaner sources of energy... 839 00:42:06.975 --> 00:42:09.497 and more sustainable energy solutions, 840 00:42:09.677 --> 00:42:16.922 yes we will have to introduce some costs but then the societal co-benefits hugely outweigh these costs. 841 00:42:17.382 --> 00:42:20.084 And these are co-benefits in the sense of health, 842 00:42:20.244 --> 00:42:20.824 well-being, 843 00:42:20.945 --> 00:42:21.985 impact on society, 844 00:42:22.105 --> 00:42:24.847 impact on economic productivity and so on. 845 00:42:25.307 --> 00:42:30.411 So I think this should be the take home message for policymakers in the future to come. 846 00:42:31.423 --> 00:42:32.003 I love that. 847 00:42:32.183 --> 00:42:33.484 If I can add one thing, 848 00:42:33.924 --> 00:42:49.768 I think we also need to have another conversation about the taxation of the different energy sources so that there is a better cost parity and we understand better that heat pumps are actually cheaper to run than subsidized 849 00:42:50.408 --> 00:42:50.968 natural gas, 850 00:42:51.028 --> 00:42:51.168 etc. 851 00:42:51.789 --> 00:42:56.670 I wrote a paper on that from the Eichelbohm Stiftung really on affordable heat pumps. 852 00:42:57.170 --> 00:43:00.071 So all of this is part of a... 853 00:43:00.491 --> 00:43:01.391 conversation. 854 00:43:01.531 --> 00:43:02.592 But in any case, 855 00:43:02.732 --> 00:43:04.013 Luis and Vladimir, 856 00:43:04.273 --> 00:43:06.994 I really appreciate your time and really appreciate what you said. 857 00:43:07.974 --> 00:43:08.214 Again, 858 00:43:08.234 --> 00:43:11.296 it doesn't have to be about one single home. 859 00:43:11.536 --> 00:43:13.897 It has to be about the building, 860 00:43:14.357 --> 00:43:15.037 the buildings, 861 00:43:15.337 --> 00:43:15.997 the neighborhood, 862 00:43:16.018 --> 00:43:16.418 et cetera. 863 00:43:16.578 --> 00:43:26.282 And that's also where we can learn and we can really make sure that there is some kind of a ripple effect from all coming together with 864 00:43:29.223 --> 00:43:30.203 So thank you so much, 865 00:43:30.223 --> 00:43:31.404 Louise and Vladimir, 866 00:43:31.564 --> 00:43:32.344 and see you next time. 867 00:43:34.545 --> 00:43:37.507 Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Energetic. 868 00:43:37.787 --> 00:43:45.650 It's been a pleasure diving deep into the world of sustainability and the just energy transition with some of the most forward-thinking mouths out there. 869 00:43:46.290 --> 00:43:47.211 I'm Maureen Cornelis, 870 00:43:47.291 --> 00:43:50.092 your host from policy consultancy Next Energy Consumer, 871 00:43:50.472 --> 00:43:53.934 and it's been an incredible journey growing this podcast together with you, 872 00:43:54.314 --> 00:43:56.435 our knowledgeable and passionate listeners. 873 00:43:57.151 --> 00:43:58.392 Since 2021, 874 00:43:58.552 --> 00:44:00.013 we've shared countless stories, 875 00:44:00.194 --> 00:44:03.837 insights and ideas over more than 40 episodes. 876 00:44:04.217 --> 00:44:07.400 And it's all thanks to your support and enthusiasm. 877 00:44:08.100 --> 00:44:12.384 If you enjoyed our journey so far and want to help us keep the conversation going, 878 00:44:12.764 --> 00:44:14.385 why not support us on Patreon? 879 00:44:14.986 --> 00:44:18.309 Every bit helps us bring more inspiring content your way. 880 00:44:18.789 --> 00:44:20.591 Check out the show notes for the link. 881 00:44:21.291 --> 00:44:21.712 And hey, 882 00:44:22.172 --> 00:44:25.815 if you're a part of an organization that shares our passion for a sustainable 883 00:44:26.015 --> 00:44:27.816 and inclusive energy future, 884 00:44:28.316 --> 00:44:31.177 we're excited to explore sponsorship opportunities with you. 885 00:44:31.657 --> 00:44:37.700 It's a fantastic way to connect with a dedicated audience and make an even bigger impact together. 886 00:44:38.660 --> 00:44:40.101 Shout out to the fantastic 887 00:44:40.461 --> 00:44:45.983 Igor Mikhailovich from Podcast Media Factory for his incredible sound design work, 888 00:44:46.324 --> 00:44:48.765 making every episode a joy to listen to. 889 00:44:49.685 --> 00:44:50.705 If you haven't already, 890 00:44:50.945 --> 00:44:54.407 make sure to subscribe to Energetic on your favorite podcast platform. 891 00:44:54.879 --> 00:44:58.380 And if you think a friend or a colleague could benefit from our episode, 892 00:44:58.740 --> 00:45:00.341 we'd love for you to spread the word. 893 00:45:00.781 --> 00:45:05.022 It helps us grow and keep the energy transition conversation alive. 894 00:45:05.502 --> 00:45:06.802 Sharing is caring. 895 00:45:07.363 --> 00:45:12.504 Follow us on Twitter and LinkedIn to stay engaged and update on all things energetic. 896 00:45:12.824 --> 00:45:14.705 Thanks once again for lending your ears. 897 00:45:14.865 --> 00:45:15.605 Until next time. 898 00:45:23.863 --> 00:45:25.085 Give me your arms, 899 00:45:25.145 --> 00:45:30.373 give me your arms. 900 00:45:30.374 --> 00:45:31.415 I need you close, 901 00:45:31.675 --> 00:45:32.496 I need you here. 902 00:45:32.516 --> 00:45:33.338 I need you close, 903 00:45:33.378 --> 00:45:38.345 I need you here. 904 00:45:38.346 --> 00:45:38.726 And I gotta, 905 00:45:38.727 --> 00:45:39.206 I'm losing my mind.