WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.088 --> 00:00:04.008 We are a podcast for product marketers and B2B SaaS who feel misunderstood of what they do. 2 00:00:04.130 --> 00:00:10.130 From someone who truly gets what you do and basically help you feel less like a misfit to being unenormable in your role. 3 00:00:10.131 --> 00:00:11.630 All right, 4 00:00:11.669 --> 00:00:12.012 guys, 5 00:00:12.130 --> 00:00:14.028 this is another episode of We're Not Markers. 6 00:00:14.051 --> 00:00:14.614 This is Zach, 7 00:00:14.653 --> 00:00:16.169 the sales waterlad on the mic. 8 00:00:16.278 --> 00:00:19.106 Before we introduce our next groundbreaking guest, 9 00:00:19.215 --> 00:00:22.340 let's pass off the mic to our fellow co-host, 10 00:00:22.731 --> 00:00:23.606 Eric Holland. 11 00:00:23.872 --> 00:00:24.294 Yeah, 12 00:00:24.295 --> 00:00:24.669 what's up? 13 00:00:24.731 --> 00:00:25.247 I'm Eric. 14 00:00:25.340 --> 00:00:29.512 I'm the franken manager of the group and for the last 15 00:00:29.876 --> 00:00:45.673 little post intro gab take it away gab bujo sales deck associate still doing sales deck i can't stand it anymore pressing it up back to zach and by the way i forgot my my 16 00:00:45.727 --> 00:00:58.368 title this is a sales water lab but let me let you guys in on a little something right here our next guest here has an eye and ear to detail here my mic was going in and out i know shocking right because we've recorded about 50 plus episodes but 17 00:00:58.720 --> 00:00:59.641 We're not marketers, 18 00:00:59.962 --> 00:01:02.163 but who knows if this individual is, 19 00:01:02.464 --> 00:01:03.686 because from his background, 20 00:01:03.687 --> 00:01:05.565 he started off management consulting. 21 00:01:06.386 --> 00:01:08.268 He's led product and growth at Dropbox. 22 00:01:08.308 --> 00:01:11.893 He's did a few stints of VP marketing recently at Bill. 23 00:01:12.292 --> 00:01:13.839 He's taking on the next challenge, 24 00:01:14.151 --> 00:01:15.651 greater than Mount Kilimanjaro, 25 00:01:16.151 --> 00:01:16.964 marketing budget. 26 00:01:17.198 --> 00:01:18.839 He's looking to protect it for you all. 27 00:01:19.167 --> 00:01:20.214 He's got the measuring tape. 28 00:01:20.386 --> 00:01:21.417 He's got the abacus. 29 00:01:21.808 --> 00:01:23.698 He's got all the tools in the kit right now. 30 00:01:24.026 --> 00:01:26.073 Let's introduce it to our next guest here, 31 00:01:26.370 --> 00:01:27.183 Pranav Piyush. 32 00:01:28.064 --> 00:01:29.226 So excited to have you on. 33 00:01:30.466 --> 00:01:31.587 Thank you guys. 34 00:01:31.728 --> 00:01:33.370 Kilimanjaro is on the bucket list. 35 00:01:33.492 --> 00:01:35.632 Someday I actually have to go do that 36 00:01:36.109 --> 00:01:36.695 But for now, 37 00:01:36.929 --> 00:01:39.874 I will keep myself happy and entertained with marketing measurement. 38 00:01:40.820 --> 00:01:41.538 Are you a bad writer? 39 00:01:42.796 --> 00:01:42.921 No, 40 00:01:43.202 --> 00:01:43.945 not by any means. 41 00:01:44.242 --> 00:01:45.960 Other than just climbing the ranks of B2B. 42 00:01:46.382 --> 00:01:51.663 Give me that boom shh. 43 00:01:51.664 --> 00:01:52.913 I'm climbing the corporate ladder. 44 00:01:53.023 --> 00:01:53.632 Oh my god. 45 00:01:53.695 --> 00:01:53.804 No, 46 00:01:55.023 --> 00:01:55.585 I like 47 00:01:55.904 --> 00:02:13.679 being out there but you know i have two young kids and they are five and eight and so the last few years have just been not that adventurous right weekends are like busy with their stuff so one day when i'm you know hopefully the kids are a little bit grown up and i get my weekends back i can go back and you 48 00:02:13.680 --> 00:02:24.960 know get out there so i did the the i don't i don't think it was the inca trail but it was a a four-day hike in in machu picchu like oh yes and 49 00:02:25.148 --> 00:02:26.029 was awesome. 50 00:02:26.049 --> 00:02:27.791 Got to replicate that on every continent. 51 00:02:28.992 --> 00:02:30.455 I was surprised we didn't run into each other. 52 00:02:30.693 --> 00:02:31.873 I think I was out 10 years ago. 53 00:02:33.299 --> 00:02:36.658 There you go. 54 00:02:36.721 --> 00:02:37.697 I have a question for you guys. 55 00:02:37.799 --> 00:02:39.705 How did the three of you decide to even start this? 56 00:02:40.682 --> 00:02:40.807 Oh, 57 00:02:40.808 --> 00:02:41.666 that's a great question. 58 00:02:42.885 --> 00:02:53.041 We were having in a very isolated bitch session that resonated around how we feel about our place in the world of B2B tech. 59 00:02:53.888 --> 00:03:09.960 as product marketers and it all aligned very well let's just start talking about it on some microphones yeah it was yeah it was either a podcast or a musical we opted for the podcast it's a good starting point musical might be like season seven it's 60 00:03:09.961 --> 00:03:22.663 on the roadmap yeah we're gonna call it not marketing so you know the game here you know the show we're gonna pass the mic over to gab here he's got the million dollar question for you for now 61 00:03:22.920 --> 00:03:25.261 are product marketers actually marketers? 62 00:03:25.941 --> 00:03:26.863 Oh my God, 63 00:03:26.921 --> 00:03:28.222 this is a can of worms. 64 00:03:29.042 --> 00:03:29.941 So a little bit of, 65 00:03:29.980 --> 00:03:30.839 a little bit of context, 66 00:03:30.878 --> 00:03:31.019 right? 67 00:03:31.020 --> 00:03:32.761 So I was a product manager at once in my, 68 00:03:32.863 --> 00:03:33.425 in my career, 69 00:03:34.183 --> 00:03:34.964 I've been a, 70 00:03:35.761 --> 00:03:36.003 you know, 71 00:03:36.159 --> 00:03:37.925 VP of product marketing at bill. 72 00:03:37.941 --> 00:03:38.988 Um, 73 00:03:39.331 --> 00:03:43.784 and so with no offense intended to my fellow 74 00:03:44.238 --> 00:03:46.269 PMM sisters and brothers, 75 00:03:47.488 --> 00:03:50.159 I think product marketing is. 76 00:03:51.332 --> 00:03:55.136 probably a misnomer in the first place. 77 00:03:56.237 --> 00:03:56.437 Now, 78 00:03:56.679 --> 00:03:57.276 let me explain, 79 00:03:58.839 --> 00:04:00.339 where did product marketing come from? 80 00:04:01.042 --> 00:04:01.261 And, 81 00:04:01.440 --> 00:04:01.722 you know, 82 00:04:01.723 --> 00:04:04.745 I don't have like the definitive history or truth behind it. 83 00:04:04.862 --> 00:04:07.105 But it came from this, 84 00:04:08.745 --> 00:04:09.542 my perception, 85 00:04:09.667 --> 00:04:15.089 my belief is that it came from a dysfunction between product and marketing. 86 00:04:16.136 --> 00:04:17.620 And we 87 00:04:18.172 --> 00:04:18.452 you know, 88 00:04:18.572 --> 00:04:23.858 collectively as a as an industry and B2B invented a new thing called product marketing. 89 00:04:25.639 --> 00:04:26.878 That was the inception point. 90 00:04:26.901 --> 00:04:27.018 Now, 91 00:04:27.401 --> 00:04:31.104 why so so to understand product marketing as a role, 92 00:04:31.323 --> 00:04:32.784 and is it marketing is a product? 93 00:04:32.846 --> 00:04:33.425 What is it, 94 00:04:33.925 --> 00:04:38.065 you have to understand why it was even created and what the source of that dysfunction was, 95 00:04:40.096 --> 00:04:42.393 either marketing drives the business, 96 00:04:43.221 --> 00:04:45.018 or product drives the the business. 97 00:04:46.528 --> 00:04:47.430 90% 98 00:04:47.431 --> 00:04:48.291 of businesses, 99 00:04:48.852 --> 00:04:50.174 neither is driving the business. 100 00:04:53.202 --> 00:04:54.143 And 90% 101 00:04:54.144 --> 00:05:00.135 of the PMMs are stuck in that really unfortunate state where neither product nor marketing is in charge. 102 00:05:00.807 --> 00:05:01.547 of driving growth. 103 00:05:02.347 --> 00:05:07.948 And PMs are the sole warriors of reason, 104 00:05:08.709 --> 00:05:11.229 and data and research, 105 00:05:11.846 --> 00:05:16.823 trying to make sure that product and marketing are enabling growth. 106 00:05:17.838 --> 00:05:17.963 Now, 107 00:05:18.557 --> 00:05:19.870 I say this in a very extreme way, 108 00:05:19.948 --> 00:05:22.026 I don't mean that those product people don't care about growth, 109 00:05:22.057 --> 00:05:22.276 I don't, 110 00:05:22.745 --> 00:05:24.557 I'm not saying that marketers don't care about growth. 111 00:05:25.135 --> 00:05:26.651 But there's something missing. 112 00:05:27.229 --> 00:05:30.401 And so the whole organization structure in my mind needs to be 113 00:05:30.615 --> 00:05:33.297 blown up and new titles, 114 00:05:33.418 --> 00:05:33.979 new names, 115 00:05:34.039 --> 00:05:35.321 new functions need to emerge. 116 00:05:36.160 --> 00:05:37.180 I can talk more about that. 117 00:05:37.321 --> 00:05:38.961 And I didn't answer your question directly, 118 00:05:39.524 --> 00:05:39.844 but 119 00:05:40.563 --> 00:05:42.586 I don't think product marketers are marketers. 120 00:05:45.071 --> 00:05:45.407 You know, 121 00:05:45.446 --> 00:05:46.453 once you said misnomer, 122 00:05:46.618 --> 00:05:47.024 I was like, 123 00:05:47.055 --> 00:05:47.274 dang, 124 00:05:47.275 --> 00:05:49.774 you take me back to seventh grade vocabulary. 125 00:05:49.899 --> 00:05:50.414 I was like, 126 00:05:50.415 --> 00:05:50.602 oh, 127 00:05:54.633 --> 00:05:56.727 print off more context to that response right there. 128 00:05:57.008 --> 00:05:58.227 You said there's something missing. 129 00:05:58.289 --> 00:05:58.446 Like, 130 00:05:58.977 --> 00:05:59.602 what is that 131 00:06:00.075 --> 00:06:05.018 What is that missing link and what was the specific experience that led you to that realization? 132 00:06:05.019 --> 00:06:06.057 On the other side of the equation, 133 00:06:06.077 --> 00:06:06.998 you got salespeople, 134 00:06:07.377 --> 00:06:08.053 you got engineers, 135 00:06:08.100 --> 00:06:08.553 what have you. 136 00:06:10.217 --> 00:06:14.819 None of those people are true GM mentality type of people. 137 00:06:15.022 --> 00:06:15.842 In an average case, 138 00:06:15.858 --> 00:06:17.663 there are obviously cases where that's not true. 139 00:06:20.381 --> 00:06:23.147 My realization was PMM is, 140 00:06:23.944 --> 00:06:25.178 in most organizations, 141 00:06:25.366 --> 00:06:29.600 even the team that I was leading mostly just project. 142 00:06:29.703 --> 00:06:30.103 management. 143 00:06:31.445 --> 00:06:34.690 And it was very unfortunate that that was the case. 144 00:06:35.690 --> 00:06:35.991 Again, 145 00:06:36.127 --> 00:06:38.252 that is not the desire or the intent. 146 00:06:38.854 --> 00:06:42.174 It's because everyone, 147 00:06:42.557 --> 00:06:43.034 sales, 148 00:06:43.713 --> 00:06:44.299 demand gen, 149 00:06:44.776 --> 00:06:45.377 product, 150 00:06:46.221 --> 00:06:48.034 all think that they are driving the ship. 151 00:06:50.987 --> 00:06:57.034 And when you have that lack of clarity on who is the ultimate GM of the business, 152 00:06:57.287 --> 00:07:13.399 of the product of the feature until you have clarity pmm's job is absolutely thankless and it's not a marketing job it's a project management consensus driving keep the trains on the track get it launched type of a job and 153 00:07:13.586 --> 00:07:26.899 there's nothing wrong with it but i don't think that it's the highest leveraged job and so my advice to marketers usually is that hey if you're going to go into a product marketing role have this conversation before you take that job of 154 00:07:27.343 --> 00:07:28.184 who is accountable, 155 00:07:28.965 --> 00:07:29.846 who is the GM, 156 00:07:30.686 --> 00:07:34.291 and how are you going to be working with that GM to drive growth? 157 00:07:35.190 --> 00:07:37.553 Because if you don't have a direct relationship with that, 158 00:07:37.975 --> 00:07:39.178 product marketing is not going to work. 159 00:07:41.194 --> 00:07:43.240 You're filling our cup 100% 160 00:07:43.256 --> 00:07:43.537 right now. 161 00:07:43.538 --> 00:07:44.506 I don't know if you know, 162 00:07:44.584 --> 00:07:46.100 but based on our reaction, 163 00:07:46.897 --> 00:07:48.584 hearing that is very validating. 164 00:07:49.037 --> 00:07:51.959 You said that those PMMs, 165 00:07:52.475 --> 00:07:54.131 it's becoming project management. 166 00:07:54.162 --> 00:07:56.553 We heard a lot about you're becoming an asset. 167 00:07:56.695 --> 00:08:11.971 creating function you're just shipping stuff by shipping stuff um if you already had that discussion of like who's the gm who's the mini ceo what do you think those product marketers can do to influence the 168 00:08:12.127 --> 00:08:26.119 current positioning that people have internally of their role yeah i think the first thing is having a holistic view of the product journey and so what that means is your job as a product marketer in a 169 00:08:26.335 --> 00:08:36.104 in a well functioning organization is to go from the opportunity identification all the way to value capture. 170 00:08:36.885 --> 00:08:38.003 And these are like 171 00:08:38.745 --> 00:08:39.588 MBA words. 172 00:08:40.432 --> 00:08:42.112 But there's real meaning to them, 173 00:08:42.292 --> 00:08:42.471 right? 174 00:08:42.971 --> 00:08:48.049 What I mean by that is you know your audience better than anybody else, 175 00:08:48.690 --> 00:08:50.784 which if you're not talking to five customers, 176 00:08:51.799 --> 00:08:53.174 or at least three customers every day, 177 00:08:53.456 --> 00:08:54.237 you can't be a PMM. 178 00:08:55.691 --> 00:08:59.974 I'm also going to put everybody on notice a little bit. 179 00:09:00.314 --> 00:09:02.911 If you think you're a PMM and you haven't spoken to a customer, 180 00:09:03.013 --> 00:09:04.052 it's already the end of the day. 181 00:09:04.552 --> 00:09:05.255 You're not a PMM. 182 00:09:07.193 --> 00:09:10.536 So let's be very clear about what the product marketing role means. 183 00:09:10.654 --> 00:09:12.497 You're constantly talking to customers, 184 00:09:12.888 --> 00:09:14.997 not just listening to gone calls, 185 00:09:15.529 --> 00:09:16.388 like that's helpful, 186 00:09:16.888 --> 00:09:19.029 but you're actually spending time with customers. 187 00:09:19.669 --> 00:09:21.263 I love doing the audience research. 188 00:09:21.857 --> 00:09:23.232 You're doing the market research. 189 00:09:23.939 --> 00:09:25.762 You understand your audience inside out, 190 00:09:25.840 --> 00:09:30.285 not just like the needs and the jobs to be done and the benefits, 191 00:09:30.766 --> 00:09:33.125 but like what do they do when they wake up? 192 00:09:33.711 --> 00:09:35.391 What's on their home screen on their phone? 193 00:09:36.391 --> 00:09:37.992 What's their favorite YouTube shows? 194 00:09:39.297 --> 00:09:42.578 You know them at a level that's super deep. 195 00:09:43.907 --> 00:09:45.907 That's where opportunities come from. 196 00:09:46.828 --> 00:09:49.485 And what I mean by that is when you understand them, 197 00:09:49.486 --> 00:09:52.282 when you understand their motivations and their jobs to be done and needs. 198 00:09:52.523 --> 00:09:53.224 You can say that, 199 00:09:53.304 --> 00:09:53.545 hey, 200 00:09:53.945 --> 00:09:58.775 here are the top three things that they care about in their professional lives. 201 00:09:59.420 --> 00:10:02.164 And we're doing great on number two and number three, 202 00:10:02.165 --> 00:10:02.484 but hey, 203 00:10:02.543 --> 00:10:03.023 number one, 204 00:10:03.064 --> 00:10:03.863 we're missing the mark. 205 00:10:04.265 --> 00:10:04.925 And here's why. 206 00:10:05.484 --> 00:10:09.273 And you take that to your organization. 207 00:10:09.507 --> 00:10:10.367 And then it's like, 208 00:10:10.390 --> 00:10:10.570 okay, 209 00:10:10.672 --> 00:10:15.570 how do you take that opportunity through the process of building a commercially viable business, 210 00:10:15.789 --> 00:10:15.976 right? 211 00:10:16.195 --> 00:10:19.242 So classic sort of product management thinking. 212 00:10:19.586 --> 00:10:20.695 This is also where I say, 213 00:10:21.320 --> 00:10:21.601 you know, 214 00:10:22.336 --> 00:10:23.804 if you have PMMs and PMs, 215 00:10:24.898 --> 00:10:25.586 something's wrong. 216 00:10:28.184 --> 00:10:31.604 And if you don't know which one works for the other one, 217 00:10:31.985 --> 00:10:32.684 you see what I'm saying, 218 00:10:33.164 --> 00:10:33.325 right? 219 00:10:33.446 --> 00:10:34.364 Because 220 00:10:36.164 --> 00:10:38.543 I can say the same exact thing that I just said about PMs. 221 00:10:41.106 --> 00:10:42.950 A product manager should know their audience. 222 00:10:42.951 --> 00:10:44.653 And so if you haven't spoken to a customer, 223 00:10:45.184 --> 00:10:46.340 how are you a product manager? 224 00:10:47.371 --> 00:10:47.481 So, 225 00:10:48.965 --> 00:10:49.231 you know, 226 00:10:50.075 --> 00:10:50.809 strong opinions, 227 00:10:50.934 --> 00:10:55.496 but I do think that those roles actually are very similar and they've been- 228 00:10:55.692 --> 00:10:58.432 created because there was a class of product managers who were like, 229 00:10:58.433 --> 00:10:58.533 no, 230 00:10:58.534 --> 00:10:58.652 no, 231 00:10:58.653 --> 00:10:58.752 no, 232 00:10:58.813 --> 00:10:59.613 I don't want to do that. 233 00:10:59.672 --> 00:11:03.152 So go set up a product marketing team and they should go do that. 234 00:11:04.656 --> 00:11:06.555 I'm going to focus on high value. 235 00:11:06.758 --> 00:11:09.297 I'm going to create the product like nonsense. 236 00:11:10.016 --> 00:11:11.734 I'm going to get hit from all sides after this, 237 00:11:12.469 --> 00:11:13.453 this podcast airs. 238 00:11:14.297 --> 00:11:15.922 Pod takes are very welcome here. 239 00:11:16.438 --> 00:11:17.500 Safe space for all. 240 00:11:18.750 --> 00:11:19.859 That's great. 241 00:11:19.860 --> 00:11:21.078 I love the way you said it. 242 00:11:21.156 --> 00:11:23.984 And I just have a quick follow-up question on that because 243 00:11:26.228 --> 00:11:32.435 My take is a great PMM should be able to jump on the demo with the average sales rep and be on par, 244 00:11:32.533 --> 00:11:33.834 if not better than that sales rep. 245 00:11:34.537 --> 00:11:36.701 Because you understand all of the different contexts, 246 00:11:36.702 --> 00:11:37.857 you understand the different department, 247 00:11:37.858 --> 00:11:39.084 you understand those feedback loops. 248 00:11:39.498 --> 00:11:41.505 So technically sales should be able to learn from you. 249 00:11:41.865 --> 00:11:44.912 And this is the best way to cut off those silos between marketing and sales. 250 00:11:45.849 --> 00:11:48.443 But you said something as well in terms of like those PMs. 251 00:11:48.818 --> 00:11:51.396 PMs should be talking to the customers. 252 00:11:51.505 --> 00:11:53.130 PMM should be talking to the customers. 253 00:11:54.209 --> 00:11:54.880 If I'm PMM, 254 00:11:55.108 --> 00:11:56.309 and have a discussion with a PM, 255 00:11:56.429 --> 00:11:57.690 which is based on the real story, 256 00:11:57.751 --> 00:11:57.971 right? 257 00:11:58.071 --> 00:11:58.712 And I was like, 258 00:11:59.051 --> 00:11:59.813 to the head of product, 259 00:12:00.294 --> 00:12:00.415 hey, 260 00:12:00.454 --> 00:12:01.473 I want to talk to customers. 261 00:12:01.493 --> 00:12:02.196 I want to make sure 262 00:12:02.774 --> 00:12:03.840 I get on par to you. 263 00:12:03.997 --> 00:12:04.794 The answer was, 264 00:12:05.739 --> 00:12:06.497 why would you talk to them? 265 00:12:06.536 --> 00:12:07.497 I already spoke with them. 266 00:12:07.864 --> 00:12:08.700 We don't want to bug them. 267 00:12:08.701 --> 00:12:10.700 We don't want to be gatekept by sales. 268 00:12:11.387 --> 00:12:17.012 What should be if I know that my counterpart as a product manager is already in those discussions, 269 00:12:17.044 --> 00:12:18.012 already on the field with them, 270 00:12:18.325 --> 00:12:19.153 but me as a PMM, 271 00:12:19.419 --> 00:12:23.997 I don't get my part of the buffet because there's someone else doing it. 272 00:12:25.004 --> 00:12:25.124 Yeah, 273 00:12:25.144 --> 00:12:25.785 it's a good question. 274 00:12:26.745 --> 00:12:28.587 And this is where it goes down to, 275 00:12:28.989 --> 00:12:29.228 you know, 276 00:12:29.829 --> 00:12:31.411 understanding the organization structure. 277 00:12:31.892 --> 00:12:33.111 After having done this role, 278 00:12:33.970 --> 00:12:36.993 before I even put myself in that position, 279 00:12:37.259 --> 00:12:37.900 I would know, 280 00:12:38.556 --> 00:12:38.798 you know, 281 00:12:39.079 --> 00:12:41.603 what the working relationship is between PM and PMM. 282 00:12:42.181 --> 00:12:44.696 So when I took this role at Bill, 283 00:12:44.743 --> 00:12:47.384 I was asked to lead the product marketing team and customer marketing team. 284 00:12:48.040 --> 00:12:49.228 I just went on a listening tour. 285 00:12:49.743 --> 00:12:51.946 I went and spoke to every product leader there was, 286 00:12:52.071 --> 00:12:52.806 every sales leader, 287 00:12:52.915 --> 00:12:53.712 every marketing leader. 288 00:12:54.376 --> 00:12:56.559 and understood what they thought, 289 00:12:56.938 --> 00:12:57.159 you know, 290 00:12:57.239 --> 00:12:58.739 product marketing's role was. 291 00:12:59.841 --> 00:13:00.083 And, 292 00:13:00.962 --> 00:13:01.204 you know, 293 00:13:01.825 --> 00:13:03.102 in a larger organization, 294 00:13:03.126 --> 00:13:03.923 you have to start there. 295 00:13:04.266 --> 00:13:04.423 Like, 296 00:13:04.469 --> 00:13:05.829 what is the expectation internally? 297 00:13:06.548 --> 00:13:07.766 And guess what? 298 00:13:07.790 --> 00:13:11.696 It's going to take you four to six quarters before you can change that perception. 299 00:13:13.008 --> 00:13:13.993 Not going to happen overnight. 300 00:13:14.540 --> 00:13:15.665 So you got to pick your battles, 301 00:13:15.758 --> 00:13:15.930 right? 302 00:13:16.055 --> 00:13:16.290 Okay, 303 00:13:16.555 --> 00:13:18.587 product thinks and believes, 304 00:13:18.946 --> 00:13:20.618 maybe very earnestly and honestly, 305 00:13:20.696 --> 00:13:21.946 that they have all of the... 306 00:13:22.608 --> 00:13:24.611 the research and the customer insights done. 307 00:13:25.851 --> 00:13:26.111 All right, 308 00:13:26.653 --> 00:13:27.251 fantastic. 309 00:13:27.833 --> 00:13:32.517 Let's set up a day long session where we can go deep into what you have found, 310 00:13:33.517 --> 00:13:37.345 and the evidence and the proof points that back that up. 311 00:13:37.642 --> 00:13:40.001 So we can use that in our marketing for our claims. 312 00:13:40.673 --> 00:13:46.173 It's a great way to surface the understanding of the lack of understanding. 313 00:13:46.314 --> 00:13:47.751 And I'm not saying this in a political way, 314 00:13:47.752 --> 00:13:50.970 I'm literally saying like hey if we're gonna say that 315 00:13:51.612 --> 00:13:51.912 you know, 316 00:13:52.253 --> 00:13:54.595 seven out of 10 customers really want this, 317 00:13:54.896 --> 00:13:55.134 you know, 318 00:13:55.217 --> 00:13:55.595 feature, 319 00:13:56.017 --> 00:13:57.459 there's got to be some evidence for it, 320 00:13:57.779 --> 00:13:57.978 right? 321 00:13:58.459 --> 00:14:01.705 And you have to structure the research in the right way to be able to do it. 322 00:14:01.744 --> 00:14:08.603 And so if your product manager or your head of product is somebody who wants to have an evidence-based conversation, 323 00:14:09.463 --> 00:14:11.009 then it's going to go well. 324 00:14:11.806 --> 00:14:13.666 If it's a HIPAA conversation, 325 00:14:13.931 --> 00:14:16.056 the highest paid person's opinion, 326 00:14:16.775 --> 00:14:16.978 then, 327 00:14:17.431 --> 00:14:17.681 you know, 328 00:14:18.275 --> 00:14:18.900 and by the way, 329 00:14:18.994 --> 00:14:19.978 that happens 90% 330 00:14:19.979 --> 00:14:20.463 of the times. 331 00:14:21.512 --> 00:14:23.414 at least you know that right off the bat. 332 00:14:23.735 --> 00:14:27.120 And you can figure out in your career sort of how you navigate that situation. 333 00:14:27.121 --> 00:14:27.358 It's like, 334 00:14:27.377 --> 00:14:27.537 okay, 335 00:14:27.557 --> 00:14:32.705 you're not going to go across the hippo and you'll have to find different ways of influencing the organization. 336 00:14:33.745 --> 00:14:34.588 I don't know if that helped, 337 00:14:34.729 --> 00:14:35.885 but yeah. 338 00:14:36.166 --> 00:14:39.291 It does help because it lets people know it's not black and white. 339 00:14:39.292 --> 00:14:40.573 You got to take those things. 340 00:14:40.574 --> 00:14:43.526 And I appreciate that acknowledgement of four to six quarters. 341 00:14:43.573 --> 00:14:49.901 I think there's probably a lot of us who are doing that in-house role who don't know what that influence. 342 00:14:50.148 --> 00:14:50.913 is going to be like, 343 00:14:50.914 --> 00:14:51.998 and it's just good to hear. 344 00:14:52.947 --> 00:14:53.768 the reality of it. 345 00:14:53.808 --> 00:14:55.629 It's not an overnight success. 346 00:14:57.031 --> 00:14:57.351 Pranav, 347 00:14:58.390 --> 00:14:58.992 a question for you. 348 00:14:58.993 --> 00:15:00.234 Go ahead. 349 00:15:00.235 --> 00:15:06.398 I used to send out a survey to all of our cross-functional stakeholders with two or three questions of just like, 350 00:15:06.422 --> 00:15:06.640 hey, 351 00:15:09.117 --> 00:15:13.226 I'd set the stage of this is our mission, 352 00:15:13.383 --> 00:15:15.476 this is our objective as a product marketing team. 353 00:15:16.273 --> 00:15:18.148 How are we doing against that mission and objective? 354 00:15:18.976 --> 00:15:22.492 And it was literally just this zero to 10 type of scale. 355 00:15:23.067 --> 00:15:28.269 And I would get that feedback and be able to see how that perception is either improving or staying the same. 356 00:15:29.089 --> 00:15:31.452 And that was the thing that I was tracking quarter to quarter. 357 00:15:33.148 --> 00:15:35.710 We tried to get every product marketing team. 358 00:15:36.171 --> 00:15:40.038 We had multiple teams of each pod to have their own metrics. 359 00:15:40.898 --> 00:15:44.788 And those metrics were very much aligned with the business that they were supporting. 360 00:15:45.679 --> 00:15:49.413 The challenge is that they didn't really have influence over those metrics. 361 00:15:49.414 --> 00:15:50.835 So it was good to say that, 362 00:15:50.866 --> 00:15:51.054 hey, 363 00:15:51.148 --> 00:15:52.632 these are the metrics that we're going to be looking at. 364 00:15:53.539 --> 00:15:54.701 But we didn't have control. 365 00:15:55.220 --> 00:15:59.744 And so that's why I always think that product marketing is in an unfortunate situation. 366 00:16:00.626 --> 00:16:06.189 Many times when it comes to can you actually control the metric that you're trying to influence. 367 00:16:07.470 --> 00:16:08.970 Diving deeper into that point, 368 00:16:09.111 --> 00:16:16.861 a former manager of mine in product marketing shared with me the best way to influence a conversation is data. 369 00:16:19.111 --> 00:16:22.408 for product marketers who on their LinkedIn. 370 00:16:22.847 --> 00:16:25.990 Say they are data-backed analysts. 371 00:16:26.652 --> 00:16:27.492 You know who you are. 372 00:16:29.093 --> 00:16:33.054 What is the wrong way of using data to influence an internal conversation? 373 00:16:34.578 --> 00:16:37.718 I would say maybe there are three to four sort of pitfalls. 374 00:16:39.499 --> 00:16:41.328 One is cherry-picking data. 375 00:16:42.531 --> 00:16:51.953 And what that just means is like you already have a story in your head and you're just trying to prove your point and you find the right data points to make the case and you go present them. 376 00:16:52.347 --> 00:16:53.688 The reason it's a pitfall, 377 00:16:53.828 --> 00:16:55.631 the reason I think that that doesn't work, 378 00:16:56.432 --> 00:17:04.201 is the smartest people in the room are going to ask you the hard questions about the data behind the data. 379 00:17:04.560 --> 00:17:04.717 And, 380 00:17:05.021 --> 00:17:05.303 you know, 381 00:17:05.982 --> 00:17:07.584 and you're going to be in a house of cards. 382 00:17:07.585 --> 00:17:08.631 So that's like one pitfall. 383 00:17:09.209 --> 00:17:12.881 The second pitfall is if you're really sort of data savvy, 384 00:17:12.928 --> 00:17:14.131 it's not just the data, 385 00:17:14.787 --> 00:17:16.974 it's what generates that data. 386 00:17:17.818 --> 00:17:18.756 So I'll give you an example. 387 00:17:19.474 --> 00:17:21.740 I could ask you a leading question in a survey. 388 00:17:22.503 --> 00:17:27.045 and get you to say things a certain way and prove my point. 389 00:17:27.924 --> 00:17:28.045 So, 390 00:17:30.123 --> 00:17:30.405 you know, 391 00:17:30.701 --> 00:17:31.303 I'm going to ask you, 392 00:17:31.428 --> 00:17:31.584 hey, 393 00:17:31.662 --> 00:17:32.069 was that, 394 00:17:32.287 --> 00:17:32.569 you know, 395 00:17:33.162 --> 00:17:34.108 that dish was delicious, 396 00:17:34.147 --> 00:17:34.506 wasn't it? 397 00:17:35.225 --> 00:17:36.444 And you're going to say, 398 00:17:36.483 --> 00:17:36.647 yeah, 399 00:17:38.319 --> 00:17:38.522 yeah. 400 00:17:38.944 --> 00:17:40.490 You're not going to say, 401 00:17:40.569 --> 00:17:40.694 no, 402 00:17:40.740 --> 00:17:49.444 it was absolute garbage when I've already positioned the question as a leading question telling you that it's delicious and I believe it's delicious. 403 00:17:49.445 --> 00:17:51.069 So you will be more likely to say, 404 00:17:51.522 --> 00:17:51.694 yeah. 405 00:17:51.831 --> 00:17:52.231 it was good. 406 00:17:53.092 --> 00:17:54.153 And I marked that and say, 407 00:17:54.694 --> 00:17:54.975 great, 408 00:17:55.114 --> 00:17:55.735 I got data. 409 00:17:57.077 --> 00:17:57.838 That's garbage, 410 00:17:58.198 --> 00:17:58.377 right? 411 00:17:58.416 --> 00:17:59.139 That's garbage data. 412 00:17:59.639 --> 00:18:01.397 So the second pitfall is like, 413 00:18:01.483 --> 00:18:04.163 what is the process to generate the data that you're looking at? 414 00:18:04.600 --> 00:18:09.295 And really being confident in understanding whether it's a survey, 415 00:18:09.483 --> 00:18:11.077 whether it's a business process, 416 00:18:11.155 --> 00:18:12.264 whether it's your CRM, 417 00:18:12.373 --> 00:18:12.811 whether it's, 418 00:18:12.936 --> 00:18:13.170 you know, 419 00:18:13.686 --> 00:18:15.170 whatever else is usage data, 420 00:18:15.702 --> 00:18:16.092 but like, 421 00:18:16.498 --> 00:18:19.623 what is the actual mechanism through which that data is created? 422 00:18:19.624 --> 00:18:21.327 And most people don't understand that and they 423 00:18:21.883 --> 00:18:22.123 you know, 424 00:18:22.504 --> 00:18:26.128 fall when questioned about that piece. 425 00:18:27.647 --> 00:18:28.510 The third thing is, 426 00:18:28.651 --> 00:18:30.870 I think this applies to all of marketing. 427 00:18:31.675 --> 00:18:33.956 Everyone needs to go take a course on statistics. 428 00:18:34.198 --> 00:18:37.221 Most of us did not study statistics when we were learning, 429 00:18:37.557 --> 00:18:37.800 you know, 430 00:18:37.839 --> 00:18:38.557 how to do marketing, 431 00:18:38.573 --> 00:18:39.479 whether that was college, 432 00:18:39.526 --> 00:18:40.901 whether that was on the job, 433 00:18:41.339 --> 00:18:41.526 right? 434 00:18:41.589 --> 00:18:42.776 I didn't go to school for marketing, 435 00:18:42.807 --> 00:18:43.307 but you know, 436 00:18:43.308 --> 00:18:43.885 I learned it on, 437 00:18:45.385 --> 00:18:47.526 and I never really thought about. 438 00:18:48.363 --> 00:19:03.278 statistics until like the last maybe four to five years and how to think about I mean I did but in a very sort of isolated way I thought about it as like a b testing I'll apply statistics to it right but like the concepts of correlation causation uncertainty you 439 00:19:03.279 --> 00:19:17.957 know what is knowable like if you go spend eight hours on YouTube like just going down the rabbit hole you will learn so much that you can apply to how you make the case internally about. 440 00:19:18.339 --> 00:19:18.579 you know, 441 00:19:18.880 --> 00:19:20.382 whatever strategy that you're employing. 442 00:19:21.161 --> 00:19:24.985 And when you tie all this together into the scientific process, 443 00:19:25.005 --> 00:19:26.005 and what I mean by that is, 444 00:19:26.450 --> 00:19:27.692 you have a hypothesis, 445 00:19:28.208 --> 00:19:29.989 you always start with a hypothesis. 446 00:19:30.770 --> 00:19:33.356 And that is a very different way of thinking, 447 00:19:33.614 --> 00:19:34.442 as opposed to like, 448 00:19:34.473 --> 00:19:35.333 here's my goal. 449 00:19:36.333 --> 00:19:36.458 No, 450 00:19:36.864 --> 00:19:37.520 you're like, 451 00:19:37.552 --> 00:19:38.661 nobody cares about your goals. 452 00:19:38.662 --> 00:19:40.177 What you care about is like finding, 453 00:19:41.177 --> 00:19:43.317 either proving or disproving your hypothesis, 454 00:19:43.661 --> 00:19:47.692 I might have a hypothesis that there's demand for a business like Paramark. 455 00:19:48.687 --> 00:19:52.359 Now I got to go prove that if I come to investors and say, 456 00:19:52.360 --> 00:19:52.480 no, 457 00:19:52.481 --> 00:19:52.580 no, 458 00:19:52.581 --> 00:19:52.681 no, 459 00:19:52.861 --> 00:19:53.986 I know there is demand. 460 00:19:54.650 --> 00:19:55.211 They're gonna be like, 461 00:19:55.271 --> 00:19:55.431 well, 462 00:19:55.731 --> 00:19:56.312 how do you know? 463 00:19:56.832 --> 00:20:01.856 And so taking a hypothesis based approach changes the conversation for marketers, 464 00:20:01.899 --> 00:20:03.801 because it's no longer about what I think. 465 00:20:04.418 --> 00:20:08.340 It's whether I can prove or disprove the hypothesis that I have, 466 00:20:08.426 --> 00:20:09.965 it also makes it less personal. 467 00:20:10.684 --> 00:20:14.387 It's not about what I think and I feel and I believe no, 468 00:20:14.965 --> 00:20:16.309 here's a hypothesis. 469 00:20:17.106 --> 00:20:18.137 And we can either, 470 00:20:18.199 --> 00:20:18.840 you know, 471 00:20:18.918 --> 00:20:20.371 showcase that it works or it doesn't work. 472 00:20:20.715 --> 00:20:22.184 Do you have a better hypothesis? 473 00:20:22.231 --> 00:20:23.637 Do you have a different hypothesis? 474 00:20:23.652 --> 00:20:24.340 Do you want to test. 475 00:20:25.210 --> 00:20:28.390 And the moment you open up that conversation, 476 00:20:28.470 --> 00:20:29.890 now you've got the whole room engaged. 477 00:20:29.891 --> 00:20:30.132 It's like, 478 00:20:30.152 --> 00:20:30.331 well, 479 00:20:30.433 --> 00:20:30.671 yes, 480 00:20:30.792 --> 00:20:31.433 I think I can, 481 00:20:31.652 --> 00:20:31.913 you know, 482 00:20:32.273 --> 00:20:33.753 I want to test this thing because, 483 00:20:34.253 --> 00:20:34.612 and you're like, 484 00:20:34.769 --> 00:20:37.589 why do you think that's a reasonable hypothesis to even form, 485 00:20:37.909 --> 00:20:38.112 right? 486 00:20:38.152 --> 00:20:38.972 Where is that coming from? 487 00:20:39.050 --> 00:20:40.050 Tell me about the intuition. 488 00:20:40.136 --> 00:20:41.628 Tell me about the market research you've done. 489 00:20:42.112 --> 00:20:46.019 So there's a long-winded answer about this data question, 490 00:20:46.316 --> 00:20:53.769 but this more rigorous and scientific way of thinking will free up product marketers to not get into the... 491 00:20:54.318 --> 00:20:56.198 tactical debates that we often get into. 492 00:20:57.359 --> 00:20:58.437 That's an awesome tip. 493 00:20:58.500 --> 00:20:58.918 Valuable. 494 00:20:59.941 --> 00:21:00.078 Yeah. 495 00:21:00.359 --> 00:21:01.101 And it's like, 496 00:21:02.558 --> 00:21:05.722 I did study statistics in college and I don't remember half of it, 497 00:21:05.777 --> 00:21:08.800 but what's grinding my gear the most is when I'm with a team, 498 00:21:08.965 --> 00:21:13.175 we talk about A-B testing or people just brought A-B tests and they're like, 499 00:21:13.222 --> 00:21:14.019 let's A-B test it. 500 00:21:14.020 --> 00:21:14.363 And I'm like, 501 00:21:14.722 --> 00:21:15.004 guys, 502 00:21:15.129 --> 00:21:16.582 we have 150 visitors. 503 00:21:17.285 --> 00:21:20.769 There's no way we'll be able to say that we're 95% 504 00:21:20.879 --> 00:21:22.582 confident in that hypothesis because 505 00:21:22.826 --> 00:21:24.627 There's not enough data to actually prove our point. 506 00:21:24.787 --> 00:21:26.049 Correlation doesn't mean correlation. 507 00:21:26.571 --> 00:21:32.172 A lot of product marketers can take a page of the book of growth marketers to actually draw those hypotheses. 508 00:21:34.219 --> 00:21:36.516 Is there a way on how you think that 509 00:21:38.258 --> 00:21:42.282 PMMs can bring that kind of whole hypothesis ideas in, 510 00:21:43.922 --> 00:21:45.188 I would say specific situation, 511 00:21:45.203 --> 00:21:45.672 for example, 512 00:21:45.735 --> 00:21:46.563 if we take messaging, 513 00:21:46.625 --> 00:21:46.844 right? 514 00:21:47.032 --> 00:21:47.516 Messaging, 515 00:21:47.797 --> 00:21:50.094 I'm currently working on something on message testing. 516 00:21:50.750 --> 00:21:51.641 A big part of that 517 00:21:51.994 --> 00:21:53.215 usually dies by committee. 518 00:21:54.037 --> 00:21:54.678 So I'm just curious, 519 00:21:54.998 --> 00:21:58.760 how would you approach that for a PMM that never really did any policies, 520 00:21:58.822 --> 00:22:03.389 don't really have a knowledge and statistic and want to just make sure they don't fall under those pitfalls? 521 00:22:04.623 --> 00:22:04.748 Yeah, 522 00:22:04.764 --> 00:22:05.006 I mean, 523 00:22:07.350 --> 00:22:09.615 positioning and messaging is an interesting one. 524 00:22:09.646 --> 00:22:10.490 When you say messaging, 525 00:22:10.537 --> 00:22:12.709 do you mean sort of the framework, 526 00:22:12.771 --> 00:22:13.521 the hierarchy, 527 00:22:13.678 --> 00:22:14.350 the pillars, 528 00:22:14.537 --> 00:22:15.959 or you really mean sort of copy? 529 00:22:18.334 --> 00:22:20.725 Eric and I had like a discussion before this call. 530 00:22:21.910 --> 00:22:25.053 He was reminding the team that messaging isn't copy, 531 00:22:25.073 --> 00:22:25.614 but in that case, 532 00:22:25.633 --> 00:22:26.194 I don't mean copy. 533 00:22:26.233 --> 00:22:26.917 I mean the framework, 534 00:22:26.918 --> 00:22:27.877 the hierarchy of everything, 535 00:22:28.116 --> 00:22:29.815 the overall strategy that will support your position. 536 00:22:30.276 --> 00:22:33.104 So there are some things that you don't experiment with. 537 00:22:33.721 --> 00:22:35.706 And messaging is one of those things. 538 00:22:36.245 --> 00:22:36.401 Now, 539 00:22:36.581 --> 00:22:37.502 let me explain what I mean. 540 00:22:37.768 --> 00:22:39.971 You don't apply sort of A-B testing to that. 541 00:22:39.987 --> 00:22:41.752 I don't think that that's a good answer. 542 00:22:42.956 --> 00:22:46.237 When you are doing positioning and messaging at the strategy level, 543 00:22:46.238 --> 00:22:47.190 at the framework level, 544 00:22:47.956 --> 00:22:49.721 my thought process and... 545 00:22:49.942 --> 00:22:51.484 And I think that this is true for most people. 546 00:22:52.384 --> 00:22:55.007 It's much more qualitative in nature. 547 00:22:55.648 --> 00:22:59.488 And that doesn't mean that it doesn't require understanding of statistics and science, 548 00:22:59.629 --> 00:23:02.777 but it's not the same as running a mass scale A-B test. 549 00:23:03.215 --> 00:23:03.332 So 550 00:23:04.816 --> 00:23:05.738 I'm sure you've seen this, 551 00:23:05.980 --> 00:23:06.183 right? 552 00:23:06.402 --> 00:23:08.340 When you do sort of first party research, 553 00:23:08.386 --> 00:23:09.558 you go talk to customers. 554 00:23:10.246 --> 00:23:14.121 And whether you're starting from an existing sort of baseline of, 555 00:23:14.199 --> 00:23:14.386 hey, 556 00:23:14.558 --> 00:23:18.543 here are the five messaging pillars that we have already had for five years. 557 00:23:19.355 --> 00:23:19.496 and 558 00:23:19.714 --> 00:23:36.803 you know you put that in front of customers and you construct a research program to understand their thoughts and feelings about those messaging pillars you need to do it a certain number of times and you need to do it a certain number of get 559 00:23:36.804 --> 00:23:46.381 a concentrated mass of your buyer personas your influencers or your champions whatever forms your buying group and there is a 560 00:23:46.706 --> 00:23:47.687 method to that madness. 561 00:23:47.827 --> 00:23:51.432 If I only speak to five people and one was the CEO, 562 00:23:51.592 --> 00:23:53.131 the other was a head of sales ops, 563 00:23:53.174 --> 00:23:54.495 and the third was a marketer, 564 00:23:55.253 --> 00:23:56.456 you don't got nothing. 565 00:23:57.198 --> 00:23:59.776 So you have to think about, 566 00:24:00.057 --> 00:24:00.338 have I, 567 00:24:00.581 --> 00:24:00.901 if my, 568 00:24:01.362 --> 00:24:04.479 if my buying group is made of these four personas, 569 00:24:05.198 --> 00:24:09.213 I'm going to make sure that I have at least eight to 10 of these research, 570 00:24:09.573 --> 00:24:09.807 you know, 571 00:24:10.245 --> 00:24:12.698 studies done for each of those personas. 572 00:24:13.698 --> 00:24:15.807 And so So when you think about... 573 00:24:16.206 --> 00:24:16.907 statistics, 574 00:24:17.007 --> 00:24:20.909 it's really just making sure if you understand the concept of statistical significance, 575 00:24:21.491 --> 00:24:21.729 you know, 576 00:24:22.151 --> 00:24:25.737 then you're able to kind of draw that into this type of a research process. 577 00:24:26.378 --> 00:24:27.120 If you don't, 578 00:24:27.737 --> 00:24:29.300 as a naive sort of junior marketer, 579 00:24:30.159 --> 00:24:30.643 you could be like, 580 00:24:30.644 --> 00:24:30.761 hey, 581 00:24:30.784 --> 00:24:31.518 I spoke to people, 582 00:24:32.284 --> 00:24:33.362 I spoke to 10 people. 583 00:24:34.190 --> 00:24:34.987 And yes, 584 00:24:35.018 --> 00:24:36.065 you did good job, 585 00:24:36.222 --> 00:24:38.581 but that doesn't make it statistically valid. 586 00:24:39.565 --> 00:24:42.097 So even for doing, 587 00:24:42.425 --> 00:24:42.675 you know, 588 00:24:42.690 --> 00:24:43.800 this audience research, 589 00:24:44.409 --> 00:24:45.550 there's like, 590 00:24:46.114 --> 00:24:47.336 go chat GPT it, 591 00:24:47.556 --> 00:24:47.757 right? 592 00:24:47.857 --> 00:24:49.160 Open up chat GPT and say, 593 00:24:49.240 --> 00:24:49.420 Hey, 594 00:24:50.461 --> 00:24:53.527 what are some best practices on how do I create? 595 00:24:54.050 --> 00:24:54.250 you know, 596 00:24:54.290 --> 00:24:57.093 research programs for a messaging framework. 597 00:24:57.993 --> 00:24:59.995 It's going to tell you exactly what you need to do. 598 00:25:00.597 --> 00:25:04.378 So that's how I think you really have to start thinking about it. 599 00:25:04.456 --> 00:25:05.081 And again, 600 00:25:05.120 --> 00:25:09.222 there's no excuse for marketers to not be able to teach them this stuff. 601 00:25:09.269 --> 00:25:10.644 This is not rocket science. 602 00:25:11.144 --> 00:25:12.425 You can pick it up quickly. 603 00:25:13.269 --> 00:25:15.847 It reminds me of a line I heard in 604 00:25:16.191 --> 00:25:17.159 Exit 5 podcast. 605 00:25:17.160 --> 00:25:18.300 It was like Dave and Dave 606 00:25:18.816 --> 00:25:23.362 Kellogg is the idea of the dispassionate analyst. 607 00:25:24.210 --> 00:25:28.889 Even when you don't have all the necessary context, 608 00:25:29.550 --> 00:25:37.389 I think knowing the thought methodology of data analytics and statistics really elevates the conversation. 609 00:25:37.491 --> 00:25:44.452 One example that comes to mind for me is that I'm working with a client right now and we're doing a series of user interviews and 610 00:25:45.358 --> 00:25:47.936 10 to 15 and I can come to them and say, 611 00:25:47.937 --> 00:25:48.061 hey, 612 00:25:48.062 --> 00:25:49.655 this gives us a perspective. 613 00:25:50.530 --> 00:25:52.891 But it might give us signals, 614 00:25:52.930 --> 00:25:55.910 but it won't give us a definitive unless we continue, 615 00:25:55.930 --> 00:25:56.410 like you said, 616 00:25:57.231 --> 00:26:00.891 if we interview eight to 10 of the same personas. 617 00:26:01.672 --> 00:26:04.633 And that helps like really guide the conversation, 618 00:26:04.657 --> 00:26:09.555 because especially when we're in a space where it's a game of opinion, 619 00:26:10.914 --> 00:26:11.399 like you said, 620 00:26:11.914 --> 00:26:13.321 the strongest opinion typically wins. 621 00:26:13.852 --> 00:26:13.977 No, 622 00:26:14.102 --> 00:26:15.711 the most highest paid opinion. 623 00:26:16.180 --> 00:26:16.414 Hippo, 624 00:26:16.602 --> 00:26:16.789 hippo. 625 00:26:17.338 --> 00:26:18.678 I did not make that term up. 626 00:26:18.779 --> 00:26:19.859 It's somewhere on the internet. 627 00:26:19.898 --> 00:26:21.118 So I don't know where I learned it from. 628 00:26:21.177 --> 00:26:23.181 But to add on to that point, 629 00:26:23.618 --> 00:26:25.216 you want to marry the qual and the quant, 630 00:26:25.583 --> 00:26:25.779 right? 631 00:26:25.919 --> 00:26:28.521 So people also like don't think about this enough. 632 00:26:28.544 --> 00:26:28.724 Like, 633 00:26:28.763 --> 00:26:28.943 okay, 634 00:26:28.982 --> 00:26:29.958 you did your qual, 635 00:26:30.060 --> 00:26:31.365 you did 30 interviews, 636 00:26:31.419 --> 00:26:33.466 you figured out your messaging pillars for like these, 637 00:26:33.467 --> 00:26:33.685 you know, 638 00:26:33.716 --> 00:26:34.497 five audiences, 639 00:26:35.200 --> 00:26:35.794 four audiences, 640 00:26:35.825 --> 00:26:36.435 whatever it might be. 641 00:26:37.888 --> 00:26:46.279 It is not that hard to turn those into five different ads on LinkedIn in an ABM way. 642 00:26:47.902 --> 00:26:49.344 each for each audience, 643 00:26:49.363 --> 00:26:50.926 the persona that you care about, 644 00:26:51.746 --> 00:26:56.094 and see your engagement rate from those ads, 645 00:26:56.469 --> 00:27:01.437 you will have answers within a week or two of which messaging is actually resonating, 646 00:27:02.015 --> 00:27:02.219 right? 647 00:27:02.437 --> 00:27:05.992 And now you can go back and do your research lab and say, 648 00:27:06.054 --> 00:27:06.320 okay, 649 00:27:06.539 --> 00:27:06.664 we, 650 00:27:06.898 --> 00:27:07.148 you know, 651 00:27:07.242 --> 00:27:08.695 our qual set five, 652 00:27:09.586 --> 00:27:12.289 our research telling us it's actually only two things that are resonating. 653 00:27:12.461 --> 00:27:13.429 The other three are like, 654 00:27:13.523 --> 00:27:13.773 you know, 655 00:27:13.867 --> 00:27:14.086 yes, 656 00:27:14.133 --> 00:27:14.992 that came up in qual, 657 00:27:15.054 --> 00:27:16.929 but the exit either something's messed up. 658 00:27:17.022 --> 00:27:17.182 right? 659 00:27:17.262 --> 00:27:19.585 Either the copy execution didn't meet the bar, 660 00:27:20.146 --> 00:27:22.349 or maybe the broader market doesn't believe that, 661 00:27:22.786 --> 00:27:22.970 right? 662 00:27:23.107 --> 00:27:26.814 So you take that iterative approach of going from qual to quant. 663 00:27:28.595 --> 00:27:29.376 And again, 664 00:27:29.377 --> 00:27:31.696 the goal is not conversions in those ads. 665 00:27:32.095 --> 00:27:34.321 The goal is to understand whether your message resonates. 666 00:27:35.024 --> 00:27:37.103 And so you're doing it for research purposes. 667 00:27:39.446 --> 00:27:40.384 Clarifying question for you. 668 00:27:41.681 --> 00:27:42.946 I'm going to say these two words, 669 00:27:43.024 --> 00:27:45.196 and I'm curious what your immediate reaction is. 670 00:27:47.850 --> 00:27:48.751 Activity metrics. 671 00:27:49.952 --> 00:27:50.833 I have nothing against them. 672 00:27:50.993 --> 00:27:51.593 I think they're great. 673 00:27:52.815 --> 00:27:53.054 Really? 674 00:27:53.995 --> 00:27:54.155 Yeah. 675 00:27:55.218 --> 00:27:56.101 So I'm gonna dive, 676 00:27:56.257 --> 00:27:57.241 we're gonna dive deeper in there. 677 00:27:57.280 --> 00:27:58.741 Now we're gonna go a little bit in the deep end. 678 00:27:58.960 --> 00:28:00.944 Let me put on my life jacket on real quick because. 679 00:28:01.382 --> 00:28:01.804 Let's do it. 680 00:28:03.241 --> 00:28:05.210 Activity metrics with collateral. 681 00:28:06.569 --> 00:28:08.163 I'm marketing program, 682 00:28:08.210 --> 00:28:09.554 we are doing a QBR. 683 00:28:10.319 --> 00:28:10.538 Zach, 684 00:28:10.569 --> 00:28:12.694 how many like one pages have we created this quarter? 685 00:28:14.241 --> 00:28:14.554 Ah, 686 00:28:15.585 --> 00:28:15.804 okay. 687 00:28:16.062 --> 00:28:17.523 that type of an activity metric. 688 00:28:17.962 --> 00:28:19.262 So thanks for clarifying that. 689 00:28:19.764 --> 00:28:20.522 Nobody's business. 690 00:28:20.982 --> 00:28:24.127 I think that's a waste of time to even like report on that. 691 00:28:24.744 --> 00:28:26.025 When I say activity metrics, 692 00:28:26.064 --> 00:28:28.346 I actually mean the customer's activity metrics. 693 00:28:29.127 --> 00:28:31.588 And so what is the customer doing? 694 00:28:31.744 --> 00:28:31.986 And so, 695 00:28:32.221 --> 00:28:32.471 you know, 696 00:28:32.611 --> 00:28:33.580 engagement metrics. 697 00:28:34.268 --> 00:28:38.127 Great example of this is if you've got a whole bunch of resources on your website, 698 00:28:39.064 --> 00:28:43.111 I actually think qualified consumption is a metric that more 699 00:28:43.350 --> 00:28:44.031 product marketers, 700 00:28:44.091 --> 00:28:45.892 content marketers should be looking at. 701 00:28:46.533 --> 00:28:52.596 What that means is a blog post that has a session with a blog post that's more than 10 seconds, 702 00:28:52.642 --> 00:28:53.260 20 seconds, 703 00:28:53.517 --> 00:28:54.182 that's gold. 704 00:28:55.502 --> 00:28:57.361 A video view of more than a minute, 705 00:28:57.525 --> 00:28:58.127 that's gold, 706 00:28:58.627 --> 00:28:58.822 right? 707 00:28:58.861 --> 00:29:00.267 A podcast download and listen, 708 00:29:00.330 --> 00:29:00.861 that's gold. 709 00:29:01.455 --> 00:29:11.783 And so you do want to look at those customer activity metrics because those are leading indicators of what you're putting out there in the world are actually sort of being consumed or not. 710 00:29:12.526 --> 00:29:14.848 People rail against open rates on emails. 711 00:29:15.229 --> 00:29:16.270 They have their problems. 712 00:29:16.411 --> 00:29:17.290 It's not accurate. 713 00:29:17.649 --> 00:29:18.774 But if your open rates, 714 00:29:19.094 --> 00:29:21.876 if your click-through rates on your emails are going up and to the right, 715 00:29:22.579 --> 00:29:23.180 that's a good thing. 716 00:29:23.555 --> 00:29:24.657 That's not a vanity metric. 717 00:29:25.219 --> 00:29:26.618 If your total traffic is going up, 718 00:29:27.001 --> 00:29:27.540 it's a good thing. 719 00:29:27.563 --> 00:29:28.649 It's not a vanity metric. 720 00:29:29.290 --> 00:29:32.352 So that's what I meant when I was thinking about activity metrics. 721 00:29:32.399 --> 00:29:32.790 But yeah, 722 00:29:32.883 --> 00:29:33.102 like, 723 00:29:34.680 --> 00:29:34.962 you know, 724 00:29:36.477 --> 00:29:38.024 how many one-pagers did I create? 725 00:29:38.290 --> 00:29:39.415 Probably less important. 726 00:29:39.649 --> 00:29:40.446 In some cases, 727 00:29:40.508 --> 00:29:40.649 it's... 728 00:29:40.850 --> 00:29:53.971 kind of important but not like okay let's look at bdrs and sdrs right i think activity metrics are important for them because that's kind of it's that's the game it's kind of very similar to your engagement rate on 729 00:29:54.480 --> 00:29:54.862 an ad, 730 00:29:55.707 --> 00:29:55.908 right? 731 00:29:55.948 --> 00:29:57.939 If you if you're not reaching enough people, 732 00:29:58.744 --> 00:30:03.549 then obviously you're not going to have the impact that you think you had. 733 00:30:04.088 --> 00:30:04.670 So SDR, 734 00:30:04.689 --> 00:30:05.951 BDR work that way. 735 00:30:06.053 --> 00:30:07.811 Like it's a game of numbers. 736 00:30:08.272 --> 00:30:09.553 It's a one-to-many exercise. 737 00:30:10.936 --> 00:30:15.443 So you have to contextualize it for the specific use case. 738 00:30:15.818 --> 00:30:16.365 I don't know. 739 00:30:16.366 --> 00:30:17.162 That was my take. 740 00:30:18.381 --> 00:30:19.803 I agree with you from a sales perspective. 741 00:30:20.725 --> 00:30:26.178 Like number activity is what's going to like lay the foundation down. 742 00:30:26.271 --> 00:30:27.334 I think where... 743 00:30:27.736 --> 00:30:34.102 we struggle in is taking this one size fits all approach and applying it to product marketing. 744 00:30:34.403 --> 00:30:35.164 The value, 745 00:30:35.262 --> 00:30:36.645 like what Eric mentioned earlier, 746 00:30:36.965 --> 00:30:41.707 the value of product marketing is creating a volume of content. 747 00:30:42.754 --> 00:30:47.160 And that is enough to justify our value. 748 00:30:47.270 --> 00:30:49.098 And you hear it in some conversations, 749 00:30:49.145 --> 00:30:49.504 Pranav, 750 00:30:49.551 --> 00:30:54.082 where I was talking to a product marketing peer and they mentioned, 751 00:30:54.942 --> 00:30:55.098 well, 752 00:30:55.348 --> 00:30:56.692 I build a sales enablement hub. 753 00:30:57.144 --> 00:30:59.884 And that's what's influencing the sales numbers. 754 00:30:59.904 --> 00:31:00.144 I'm like, 755 00:31:00.145 --> 00:31:00.265 well, 756 00:31:00.285 --> 00:31:00.464 how? 757 00:31:01.804 --> 00:31:02.125 They're like, 758 00:31:02.144 --> 00:31:02.285 well, 759 00:31:02.367 --> 00:31:02.964 they're using it. 760 00:31:03.285 --> 00:31:03.586 I'm like, 761 00:31:04.886 --> 00:31:05.328 in what way? 762 00:31:05.445 --> 00:31:05.648 Like, 763 00:31:05.703 --> 00:31:05.945 are they, 764 00:31:06.062 --> 00:31:07.086 do they just click it, 765 00:31:07.226 --> 00:31:07.648 open it? 766 00:31:08.046 --> 00:31:19.406 So I think like we've kind of warped ourselves in this belief that if I create a piece of collateral and it's used on a sales call and I helped and as close as a deal, 767 00:31:20.203 --> 00:31:21.593 that collateral closed the deal. 768 00:31:21.656 --> 00:31:21.765 No, 769 00:31:21.766 --> 00:31:22.187 it didn't. 770 00:31:23.328 --> 00:31:24.734 It might have influenced it, 771 00:31:25.531 --> 00:31:26.312 but no one. 772 00:31:26.332 --> 00:31:27.994 One of my Pico Civil One patrons. 773 00:31:28.054 --> 00:31:29.035 Back on this and say, 774 00:31:30.035 --> 00:31:31.336 not everything needs to be measured. 775 00:31:32.660 --> 00:31:33.117 So again, 776 00:31:33.137 --> 00:31:36.965 this is a counter point and might be surprising to some. 777 00:31:38.004 --> 00:31:38.965 Why Pranav, 778 00:31:39.809 --> 00:31:41.746 the guy who builds measurement software, 779 00:31:42.191 --> 00:31:43.957 is saying that not everything needs to be measured. 780 00:31:43.973 --> 00:31:45.676 Because it really doesn't need to be measured. 781 00:31:47.144 --> 00:31:49.254 If you look at the best teams, 782 00:31:49.660 --> 00:31:53.285 am I going to go measure the productivity of my creative team? 783 00:31:53.441 --> 00:31:53.551 No, 784 00:31:53.691 --> 00:31:54.113 I'm not. 785 00:31:54.888 --> 00:31:56.669 Like that's not a good use of time. 786 00:31:56.670 --> 00:31:57.470 It's not a factory, 787 00:31:57.591 --> 00:31:57.790 right? 788 00:31:59.050 --> 00:32:04.839 The best advertising copy creative does not come under factory environments. 789 00:32:05.660 --> 00:32:07.277 So just like that, 790 00:32:07.644 --> 00:32:10.386 some of the product marketing work is like that. 791 00:32:10.503 --> 00:32:12.886 It's true creative work that, 792 00:32:13.824 --> 00:32:14.089 you know, 793 00:32:15.027 --> 00:32:16.464 a great pitch deck, 794 00:32:18.949 --> 00:32:22.152 you're just going to know your sales teams are going to be like, 795 00:32:23.042 --> 00:32:23.871 holy shit, 796 00:32:24.214 --> 00:32:24.574 Zach. 797 00:32:24.988 --> 00:32:25.909 This is amazing. 798 00:32:27.450 --> 00:32:28.751 And that's good enough. 799 00:32:29.911 --> 00:32:30.712 The trouble is, 800 00:32:31.415 --> 00:32:36.740 when you come from a defensive mindset and a defensive situation where you're having to prove your worth, 801 00:32:38.138 --> 00:32:38.982 because, 802 00:32:39.904 --> 00:32:40.146 again, 803 00:32:40.161 --> 00:32:44.825 the hippos don't understand what product marketing is and product marketing does. 804 00:32:45.622 --> 00:32:47.450 And so if you find yourself in that situation, 805 00:32:47.497 --> 00:32:51.950 I can appreciate some marketers coming up with these activity metrics as a way to prove their worth. 806 00:32:53.168 --> 00:32:57.392 But I think the motivation and just it's a symptom of the dysfunction. 807 00:32:58.974 --> 00:33:02.259 And so I don't blame anybody for doing it. 808 00:33:02.439 --> 00:33:04.876 I'm like blaming the system that let it happen. 809 00:33:06.720 --> 00:33:08.462 And my advice to those folks would be like, 810 00:33:08.501 --> 00:33:08.743 hey, 811 00:33:09.267 --> 00:33:10.626 if that's the situation you're in, 812 00:33:11.689 --> 00:33:12.501 two things are going to happen. 813 00:33:13.064 --> 00:33:18.017 One is you are either going to be out of a job in about 18 months. 814 00:33:18.360 --> 00:33:22.814 You yourself are going to find yourself feeling that I'm not adding value. 815 00:33:24.012 --> 00:33:32.762 And so might as well change the conversation of the situation proactively rather than just let it to chance and fate. 816 00:33:33.762 --> 00:33:34.582 I don't know if that helps, 817 00:33:34.583 --> 00:33:36.863 but that's my honest take that you don't have to measure everything. 818 00:33:37.004 --> 00:33:38.723 We're hiring our first marketer and salespeople. 819 00:33:38.770 --> 00:33:43.598 The way we measure their success is going to be dramatically different from anything I've seen in B2B SaaS. 820 00:33:44.816 --> 00:33:48.254 And you need to go towards those type of marketing teams. 821 00:33:50.301 --> 00:33:50.441 Well, 822 00:33:50.504 --> 00:33:52.582 then I want to flip that on you. 823 00:33:53.952 --> 00:33:58.373 What do you think are the things that people are not measuring that you are just, 824 00:33:58.912 --> 00:34:00.154 you're dumbfounded by, 825 00:34:00.252 --> 00:34:02.572 that you feel like they should be and have to be measuring, 826 00:34:02.775 --> 00:34:08.893 and it's just not helping both the product marketing and everyone else on the marketing side of the house? 827 00:34:09.955 --> 00:34:10.096 Yeah, 828 00:34:10.283 --> 00:34:10.393 so 829 00:34:11.143 --> 00:34:11.893 I've, you know, 830 00:34:11.908 --> 00:34:17.783 I've been talking about incrementality and the concept of incrementality for a good part of the last two years, 831 00:34:17.861 --> 00:34:20.596 and I can tell you that 99% 832 00:34:20.611 --> 00:34:23.064 of B2B organizations have no clue. 833 00:34:23.780 --> 00:34:26.542 about the incrementality of their investments. 834 00:34:27.503 --> 00:34:29.187 So if I were to look at your marketing, 835 00:34:29.886 --> 00:34:30.124 you know, 836 00:34:30.226 --> 00:34:31.386 line item by line item, 837 00:34:31.710 --> 00:34:32.265 your budget, 838 00:34:33.187 --> 00:34:34.288 you've got a bunch of headcount, 839 00:34:34.992 --> 00:34:35.851 you've got a bunch of, 840 00:34:36.351 --> 00:34:36.593 you know, 841 00:34:36.594 --> 00:34:38.992 what I call sort of creative and production, 842 00:34:40.031 --> 00:34:40.874 those things, 843 00:34:41.984 --> 00:34:45.687 you don't need to measure the ROI on that makes no sense. 844 00:34:47.359 --> 00:34:49.468 So creative productions, 845 00:34:49.499 --> 00:34:52.234 like how much am I paying my web designer and my video producer, 846 00:34:52.312 --> 00:34:52.952 like that's 847 00:34:53.917 --> 00:34:55.306 That is the cost of doing business. 848 00:34:56.365 --> 00:34:56.525 Right. 849 00:34:56.705 --> 00:34:59.985 That is the actual sort of fuel that you're putting into the engine. 850 00:34:59.986 --> 00:35:01.786 And the engine is the remaining. 851 00:35:02.208 --> 00:35:04.770 Let's say that ends up being like 40 percent of your total budget. 852 00:35:05.106 --> 00:35:11.770 You've got the remaining 60 percent and that remaining 60 percent is spread across your advertisements, 853 00:35:12.466 --> 00:35:15.388 your specific SEO investments, 854 00:35:16.106 --> 00:35:17.544 your PR investments, 855 00:35:18.247 --> 00:35:19.309 your you know. 856 00:35:20.044 --> 00:35:25.653 And then you have a bunch of channels or mediums that are not consuming any. 857 00:35:25.993 --> 00:35:43.049 paid dollars your life cycle stuff right so your emails your in-app those are owned channels so all of that stuff the 60 that's outside of creative and production outside of headcount should absolutely be measured and 858 00:35:43.705 --> 00:35:54.299 that 60 of your marketing budget most people just stop at your paid channels they never think about seo they never think about pr they never think about organic social and 859 00:35:54.865 --> 00:35:59.051 The reality is that all of those other things contribute, 860 00:36:00.031 --> 00:36:04.394 can contribute a significant amount to your pipeline and to your close one. 861 00:36:05.012 --> 00:36:10.137 You just don't do it because most marketing leadership just puts them in a separate bucket. 862 00:36:11.488 --> 00:36:13.316 And there's no reason to do that. 863 00:36:13.410 --> 00:36:13.519 And, 864 00:36:13.644 --> 00:36:13.863 you know, 865 00:36:13.879 --> 00:36:17.613 that's why we exist as a company is we level the playing field, 866 00:36:17.722 --> 00:36:18.129 whether it's, 867 00:36:18.347 --> 00:36:18.582 you know, 868 00:36:19.504 --> 00:36:21.004 people use all these types of terms, 869 00:36:21.051 --> 00:36:21.238 right? 870 00:36:22.207 --> 00:36:22.957 In the older times, 871 00:36:22.958 --> 00:36:23.801 it was above the line, 872 00:36:23.832 --> 00:36:24.410 below the line. 873 00:36:24.893 --> 00:36:41.052 it was brand and performance there was offline online it's you know the 95.5 right whatever you you name it the idea is that you have to understand the entire marketing mixes impact on your business but 874 00:36:41.083 --> 00:36:52.724 again like it makes zero sense to look at headcount cost and creative production cost like that is those are not the variables that you are ramping up or down necessarily and 875 00:36:54.341 --> 00:36:54.481 Yeah, 876 00:36:54.501 --> 00:36:56.702 so that's my rough take on what you do measure, 877 00:36:56.703 --> 00:36:57.522 what you don't measure. 878 00:36:58.102 --> 00:37:00.042 And coming back to like the sales asset production, 879 00:37:00.081 --> 00:37:00.241 right? 880 00:37:00.261 --> 00:37:02.725 I put that in the creative production piece. 881 00:37:02.921 --> 00:37:03.702 Like that is, 882 00:37:03.866 --> 00:37:05.741 there's no reason why you need to measure that. 883 00:37:07.007 --> 00:37:10.225 You do want to measure the success rate of your SDRs and BDRs. 884 00:37:12.725 --> 00:37:13.303 So let's say, 885 00:37:14.178 --> 00:37:15.413 Zach, 886 00:37:15.414 --> 00:37:16.225 I got to steal it then. 887 00:37:16.272 --> 00:37:17.710 So if 99%, 888 00:37:18.225 --> 00:37:19.210 if you're thinking 99% 889 00:37:19.694 --> 00:37:20.522 aren't doing that. 890 00:37:21.145 --> 00:37:27.712 What's going to happen if a product marketer listens to this and can actually take some of this advice and make it real? 891 00:37:28.111 --> 00:37:30.337 What would that next step be for them to say, 892 00:37:30.353 --> 00:37:30.837 you know what, 893 00:37:32.197 --> 00:37:33.134 I want to be a change. 894 00:37:33.158 --> 00:37:34.181 I want to be one of those 1% 895 00:37:34.455 --> 00:37:37.306 outliers and make a big difference in the organization. 896 00:37:38.056 --> 00:37:38.478 Other than, 897 00:37:38.775 --> 00:37:39.056 you know, 898 00:37:39.228 --> 00:37:40.166 go buy your product. 899 00:37:41.259 --> 00:37:41.400 Yeah. 900 00:37:42.072 --> 00:37:49.619 The first thing that I say is you have to start with an audit of what you're actually even doing. 901 00:37:51.277 --> 00:38:14.293 I kid you not marketers are not even able to articulate hey how many engagements impressions are we getting across all of our different channels there are times when we onboard customers and we show them stuff for the first time after like one month of the initial onboarding phase and we say this is how your impression share is across paid social paid search owned channels and 902 00:38:14.418 --> 00:38:18.809 it's shocking they've never seen that report before and 903 00:38:19.349 --> 00:38:20.711 where you've got everything from, 904 00:38:20.890 --> 00:38:21.131 you know, 905 00:38:21.232 --> 00:38:21.851 above the line, 906 00:38:21.852 --> 00:38:22.412 below the line. 907 00:38:22.693 --> 00:38:24.693 Let's just use that because it's a fun terminology. 908 00:38:25.377 --> 00:38:28.717 And so the first thing I say is like, 909 00:38:29.342 --> 00:38:34.201 go look at everything that you're actually doing across your marketing mix and what those, 910 00:38:34.701 --> 00:38:34.943 you know, 911 00:38:35.404 --> 00:38:38.123 impressions or engagements are over time. 912 00:38:38.623 --> 00:38:39.607 How have they shifted? 913 00:38:40.654 --> 00:38:43.060 Is it basically like whatever you're doing, 914 00:38:43.467 --> 00:38:45.092 it's been consistent for like 12 months. 915 00:38:45.279 --> 00:38:48.263 And so you've not actually made any changes in your marketing mix. 916 00:38:48.489 --> 00:38:49.150 You see what I'm saying? 917 00:38:49.990 --> 00:38:52.574 We thought that LinkedIn is doing really well. 918 00:38:52.832 --> 00:38:53.172 Guess what? 919 00:38:53.332 --> 00:38:54.133 The last 12 months, 920 00:38:54.235 --> 00:38:55.758 LinkedIn impressions have been flat. 921 00:38:57.297 --> 00:38:59.078 So what's going on? 922 00:38:59.321 --> 00:38:59.500 Like, 923 00:38:59.844 --> 00:39:00.860 how can that be true? 924 00:39:01.485 --> 00:39:03.844 And we have this perception that we're doing great on LinkedIn, 925 00:39:04.242 --> 00:39:04.406 right? 926 00:39:04.781 --> 00:39:05.891 Look at the actual data, 927 00:39:06.031 --> 00:39:06.203 right? 928 00:39:06.219 --> 00:39:08.969 Like visually look at what you're doing in each channel, 929 00:39:09.266 --> 00:39:10.266 put it in a spreadsheet, 930 00:39:10.375 --> 00:39:11.235 you can put that into 931 00:39:11.875 --> 00:39:15.297 Claude and chat GPT and ask it like, 932 00:39:15.328 --> 00:39:15.500 hey, 933 00:39:15.563 --> 00:39:17.500 what are the key observations that you get from this data. 934 00:39:17.757 --> 00:39:19.219 You don't need to buy fancy software. 935 00:39:20.181 --> 00:39:21.443 If just get the data, 936 00:39:21.644 --> 00:39:22.506 put it in a spreadsheet, 937 00:39:22.545 --> 00:39:24.908 put it in chat GPT and ask it like five questions. 938 00:39:25.713 --> 00:39:27.135 That itself is a great starting point. 939 00:39:28.966 --> 00:39:36.592 So let's say there's a fellow CMO who accidentally stumbled on the podcast because they were trying to listen to marketing scientists instead. 940 00:39:38.018 --> 00:39:41.916 And they fall into one of your four data pitfalls, 941 00:39:42.377 --> 00:39:45.424 which is cherry picking what you're sharing here so far. 942 00:39:46.159 --> 00:39:46.502 And 943 00:39:46.862 --> 00:39:47.346 I hear, 944 00:39:48.284 --> 00:39:48.440 oh, 945 00:39:48.690 --> 00:39:50.502 creative is the cost of doing business, 946 00:39:51.034 --> 00:39:52.893 but I don't want to do an audit. 947 00:39:53.846 --> 00:39:56.159 My sales pipeline is on life support. 948 00:39:56.894 --> 00:40:01.177 Let's do a creative rebrand to increase our enterprise footprint. 949 00:40:02.041 --> 00:40:02.619 I hear Chuck, 950 00:40:02.638 --> 00:40:04.103 I'm curious to hear your reaction here. 951 00:40:04.623 --> 00:40:09.166 Do rebrands really revitalize the organization? 952 00:40:09.267 --> 00:40:11.306 Is it something worth measuring? 953 00:40:11.791 --> 00:40:18.861 Because I feel like product marketers at times get thrown into the rebrand mix of putting on a gloss of paint, 954 00:40:18.939 --> 00:40:21.064 but nothing's really changed. 955 00:40:22.783 --> 00:40:22.939 Yeah, 956 00:40:23.017 --> 00:40:24.986 I think there was a good post from Elena. 957 00:40:25.267 --> 00:40:26.142 She's like the meme. 958 00:40:26.478 --> 00:40:26.738 Yes. 959 00:40:28.199 --> 00:40:30.682 I don't know why I am blanking on her last name, 960 00:40:30.744 --> 00:40:31.861 but she's awesome. 961 00:40:31.862 --> 00:40:33.725 I know she's at growth at Dropbox now, 962 00:40:33.947 --> 00:40:34.369 I believe. 963 00:40:34.424 --> 00:40:35.346 Yeah. 964 00:40:35.347 --> 00:40:36.986 And she's advised companies like Miro, 965 00:40:37.205 --> 00:40:37.971 Amplitude, 966 00:40:38.088 --> 00:40:38.213 all. 967 00:40:38.214 --> 00:40:39.869 Elena Verna. 968 00:40:41.330 --> 00:40:41.651 Verna. 969 00:40:41.854 --> 00:40:42.197 That's right. 970 00:40:42.198 --> 00:40:42.619 Elena Verna. 971 00:40:42.697 --> 00:40:43.088 And she's, 972 00:40:43.260 --> 00:40:44.729 she's an investor in Paramark as well. 973 00:40:44.791 --> 00:40:45.776 So shout out to her. 974 00:40:46.479 --> 00:40:47.385 She said something right. 975 00:40:47.401 --> 00:40:49.338 Like she has never seen a rebrand actually work. 976 00:40:49.713 --> 00:40:51.041 Like there are always exceptions, 977 00:40:51.166 --> 00:40:53.244 but like rule of thumb, 978 00:40:54.010 --> 00:40:55.947 you'd be lucky if you just break even. 979 00:40:56.222 --> 00:40:59.505 which means nothing breaks in your funnel. 980 00:41:00.685 --> 00:41:01.646 That's the you know, 981 00:41:01.888 --> 00:41:02.490 the target. 982 00:41:03.111 --> 00:41:04.689 So my honest take, 983 00:41:04.712 --> 00:41:06.673 I don't think rebrands are necessary. 984 00:41:07.275 --> 00:41:10.392 There are some cases where you might have to do them. 985 00:41:10.478 --> 00:41:11.197 I'll give you an example. 986 00:41:11.220 --> 00:41:13.673 There was a point of time where the company that I was at, 987 00:41:14.064 --> 00:41:15.080 we were going through a major, 988 00:41:16.236 --> 00:41:18.189 I am the one who initiated a major rebrand. 989 00:41:19.158 --> 00:41:24.876 And for all types of very coincidental reasons we did not end up actually doing it. 990 00:41:25.564 --> 00:41:25.798 But 991 00:41:26.398 --> 00:41:31.298 The hypothesis there was our name itself was the product. 992 00:41:32.599 --> 00:41:39.224 And what I mean by that is we had captured the market for the thing that we said we would capture the market. 993 00:41:39.662 --> 00:41:40.318 And now we're like, 994 00:41:40.365 --> 00:41:42.849 we're going to where are we going to get the next level of growth from? 995 00:41:43.615 --> 00:41:45.256 And the name became a hindrance. 996 00:41:46.224 --> 00:41:49.631 So the hypothesis here was not about changing. 997 00:41:50.131 --> 00:41:50.240 Oh, 998 00:41:50.256 --> 00:41:51.521 we're not resonating with the market. 999 00:41:51.522 --> 00:41:51.646 No, 1000 00:41:51.647 --> 00:41:51.724 no, 1001 00:41:51.725 --> 00:41:51.818 no, 1002 00:41:51.865 --> 00:41:54.084 we're going to launch these five new products. 1003 00:41:54.794 --> 00:41:56.035 There are great additions, 1004 00:41:56.696 --> 00:42:04.023 but our name is literally a hindrance to those five other products because it's so specific to this one feature that we built. 1005 00:42:05.367 --> 00:42:06.367 And so, 1006 00:42:06.703 --> 00:42:07.086 again, 1007 00:42:07.304 --> 00:42:09.992 you have to have a hypothesis of why are you even doing the rebrand. 1008 00:42:10.765 --> 00:42:12.875 If you say that you're not resonating with enterprise, 1009 00:42:13.250 --> 00:42:14.015 what's the proof point? 1010 00:42:14.640 --> 00:42:15.359 What's the evidence? 1011 00:42:17.234 --> 00:42:19.125 Have you gone and talked to enterprise people? 1012 00:42:19.640 --> 00:42:22.625 Have they expressed anything about your messaging that's not resonating? 1013 00:42:23.334 --> 00:42:24.936 why can't we fix it with messaging itself? 1014 00:42:25.036 --> 00:42:26.058 Why do we need a rebrand? 1015 00:42:26.456 --> 00:42:26.616 Right? 1016 00:42:27.300 --> 00:42:28.679 Is the right starting point. 1017 00:42:28.737 --> 00:42:30.202 And then if you come in and say like, 1018 00:42:30.241 --> 00:42:30.402 yeah, 1019 00:42:30.523 --> 00:42:34.925 we've got all the proof points to say a rebrand is the only way we can achieve it. 1020 00:42:35.605 --> 00:42:36.066 Go for it. 1021 00:42:37.191 --> 00:42:38.206 I love the hypothesis. 1022 00:42:38.847 --> 00:42:38.972 I'm, 1023 00:42:40.027 --> 00:42:40.448 I'm done. 1024 00:42:40.667 --> 00:42:41.886 I'm like in the quick 1025 00:42:42.495 --> 00:42:43.214 46 minutes, 1026 00:42:43.230 --> 00:42:47.433 you've transformed this virtual recording studio into a virtual weight room and you know, 1027 00:42:47.855 --> 00:42:48.339 I'm cooked. 1028 00:42:49.886 --> 00:42:50.402 I'm glad. 1029 00:42:51.214 --> 00:42:51.464 Yeah, 1030 00:42:51.589 --> 00:42:52.261 this was awesome. 1031 00:42:52.654 --> 00:42:57.500 I've already feeling like taking some stuff back and having some interesting conversations. 1032 00:42:57.778 --> 00:42:58.098 I'd say, 1033 00:42:58.219 --> 00:42:58.461 you know, 1034 00:42:58.462 --> 00:42:59.422 as we sign off here, 1035 00:42:59.481 --> 00:43:00.102 we're definitely, 1036 00:43:00.606 --> 00:43:00.840 you know, 1037 00:43:00.918 --> 00:43:02.325 want to make sure you have some space. 1038 00:43:02.364 --> 00:43:02.481 So, 1039 00:43:04.809 --> 00:43:06.411 other than catching you on LinkedIn, 1040 00:43:07.770 --> 00:43:08.715 anything else going on? 1041 00:43:08.825 --> 00:43:13.481 Got anything else cooking or anything else you want to let our audience know about before we let you go? 1042 00:43:14.668 --> 00:43:14.793 No, 1043 00:43:14.856 --> 00:43:14.981 it's, 1044 00:43:15.137 --> 00:43:15.559 it's yeah, 1045 00:43:15.684 --> 00:43:15.918 great. 1046 00:43:15.997 --> 00:43:19.340 So go check out the marketing scientists podcast. 1047 00:43:19.534 --> 00:43:20.855 That's the podcast that I host. 1048 00:43:21.036 --> 00:43:25.779 I just finished recording this morning with Kerry Cunningham from Sixth Sense. 1049 00:43:26.040 --> 00:43:29.966 He is their lead analyst and he spent a bunch of time at Forrester. 1050 00:43:30.122 --> 00:43:34.607 And we had a great conversation about all things third-party intent, 1051 00:43:34.693 --> 00:43:35.818 first-party intent, 1052 00:43:35.943 --> 00:43:36.771 all that fun stuff. 1053 00:43:37.396 --> 00:43:37.724 So yeah, 1054 00:43:37.990 --> 00:43:38.833 Marketing Scientists, 1055 00:43:38.990 --> 00:43:39.787 that's the podcast. 1056 00:43:39.818 --> 00:43:40.271 Go check it out. 1057 00:43:43.083 --> 00:43:48.068 We're just going to put you to your name as a co-host for this episode to drive the listeners from your podcast to us. 1058 00:43:50.695 --> 00:43:52.977 I don't know if my audience is bigger than your audience, 1059 00:43:52.978 --> 00:43:53.438 so there we go. 1060 00:43:54.798 --> 00:43:55.419 We'll measure it, 1061 00:43:55.438 --> 00:43:58.767 but we'll ask for your discretion first to see if it's worthy to be measured. 1062 00:43:59.243 --> 00:43:59.384 Eric, 1063 00:43:59.423 --> 00:44:03.946 you're on mute, 1064 00:44:03.970 --> 00:44:04.087 bro. 1065 00:44:05.548 --> 00:44:06.485 Hashtag season five. 1066 00:44:07.235 --> 00:44:07.548 Dude, 1067 00:44:07.549 --> 00:44:09.298 I hit the space button like a rookie. 1068 00:44:09.860 --> 00:44:13.563 But I just want to say to everyone else here who isn't familiar, 1069 00:44:14.110 --> 00:44:19.001 I was lucky enough to listen to a presentation with our guest. 1070 00:44:19.254 --> 00:44:19.394 what, 1071 00:44:19.475 --> 00:44:20.376 nine months ago-ish. 1072 00:44:21.638 --> 00:44:24.365 And I've been thinking about it ever since and how, 1073 00:44:24.662 --> 00:44:24.904 you know, 1074 00:44:25.384 --> 00:44:26.185 we really need to, 1075 00:44:26.666 --> 00:44:26.888 you know, 1076 00:44:26.889 --> 00:44:29.092 do a better job in measurement and what we measure. 1077 00:44:29.889 --> 00:44:33.874 So now that I know that Paramark is actually live, 1078 00:44:34.734 --> 00:44:36.617 I suggest everyone go check out the websites, 1079 00:44:37.355 --> 00:44:38.300 maybe get on a demo, 1080 00:44:38.957 --> 00:44:39.902 see if it's a good fit. 1081 00:44:40.457 --> 00:44:44.441 Because I'm really bullish that it can do a lot for us and make us look a lot better in our roles. 1082 00:44:45.183 --> 00:44:47.113 Just write down that you're coming from We're Not Marketers. 1083 00:44:47.144 --> 00:44:49.113 I'll give you 99% 1084 00:44:49.253 --> 00:44:49.707 of what you said. 1085 00:44:50.191 --> 00:44:52.035 But in all fairness, 1086 00:44:52.113 --> 00:44:53.894 another great episode of 1087 00:44:54.238 --> 00:44:56.378 We're Not Marketers. 1088 00:44:56.628 --> 00:44:58.253 And we will catch you guys next time. 1089 00:45:02.151 --> 00:45:03.774 All right. 1090 00:45:04.012 --> 00:45:05.997 See you guys. 1091 00:45:06.239 --> 00:45:10.165 Thank you very much. 1092 00:45:10.305 --> 00:45:10.587 Bye.