WEBVTT 1 00:00:03.384 --> 00:00:03.624 You know, 2 00:00:03.625 --> 00:00:10.633 there is an activist component to this where we're trying to enlarge the community of people who feel that art is for them. 3 00:00:11.293 --> 00:00:14.933 And we feel that if that community can be enlarged, 4 00:00:15.215 --> 00:00:15.457 you know, 5 00:00:15.496 --> 00:00:20.027 if more people feel like fine art is something that is not just for the elite, 6 00:00:20.340 --> 00:00:21.980 that would increase art support, 7 00:00:22.262 --> 00:00:22.496 you know, 8 00:00:22.605 --> 00:00:23.808 in the general population. 9 00:00:24.230 --> 00:00:24.465 You know, 10 00:00:24.480 --> 00:00:25.730 we've been saying a long time, 11 00:00:25.824 --> 00:00:26.980 art needs to make friends. 12 00:00:27.433 --> 00:00:27.683 Hello, 13 00:00:28.168 --> 00:00:30.136 and welcome to Art Restart. 14 00:00:30.892 --> 00:00:32.314 where we learn from artists who, 15 00:00:32.513 --> 00:00:33.253 wherever they work, 16 00:00:33.535 --> 00:00:34.374 whatever they make, 17 00:00:34.435 --> 00:00:37.699 are shaking up the status quo in their fields and in their communities. 18 00:00:38.578 --> 00:00:39.664 I'm Pier Carlo Talenti, 19 00:00:40.265 --> 00:00:42.304 the producer and editor of this podcast, 20 00:00:42.664 --> 00:00:44.367 a production of the Thomas S. 21 00:00:44.421 --> 00:00:49.437 Keenan Institute for the Arts at the University of North Carolina School of the Arts. 22 00:00:50.578 --> 00:00:51.359 In this episode, 23 00:00:51.360 --> 00:00:54.890 we'll be speaking with Jennifer Dalton and William Pauheide, 24 00:00:55.468 --> 00:00:57.953 the co-creators of Zero Art Fair. 25 00:00:59.068 --> 00:01:00.268 What is Zero Art Fair? 26 00:01:00.348 --> 00:01:00.528 Well, 27 00:01:01.008 --> 00:01:03.209 Jennifer and Bill will explain that themselves, 28 00:01:03.228 --> 00:01:06.986 but a little bit about their artistic practice will give you an important context. 29 00:01:07.728 --> 00:01:10.267 They are both visual and conceptual artists who, 30 00:01:10.931 --> 00:01:11.970 for the last decade, 31 00:01:11.994 --> 00:01:13.510 have collaborated on sharp, 32 00:01:13.689 --> 00:01:19.908 often darkly funny critiques of the art world's economic and political machinery, 33 00:01:20.627 --> 00:01:25.533 which keeps a lot of new potential art lovers firmly locked out. 34 00:01:26.756 --> 00:01:31.259 One of their earliest collaborations was in concert with an artist collective called FIPCA. 35 00:01:32.142 --> 00:01:32.482 Together, 36 00:01:32.521 --> 00:01:37.790 they produced a satirical telethon during the Great Recession titled Telethon for the 1%. 37 00:01:39.368 --> 00:01:41.994 Which then led Jen and Bill to ask themselves the question, 38 00:01:42.072 --> 00:01:42.290 wait, 39 00:01:42.978 --> 00:01:45.759 what if we did an art fair where all the art was free? 40 00:01:47.072 --> 00:01:50.618 That question eventually led them to create Zero Art Fair. 41 00:01:51.264 --> 00:01:56.644 which launched in 2024 in a beautiful barn in the Hudson Valley as part of Upstate Art Weekend, 42 00:01:57.207 --> 00:02:01.828 and then recurred in 2025 at the Flag Art Foundation in Manhattan. 43 00:02:02.867 --> 00:02:03.289 In short, 44 00:02:03.344 --> 00:02:03.828 very short, 45 00:02:03.945 --> 00:02:09.305 Zero Art Fair is a fully functioning art fair that uses a radically different contract, 46 00:02:09.523 --> 00:02:12.586 which Bill had been using for a while to sell his own pieces, 47 00:02:13.273 --> 00:02:17.664 to redistribute both artworks and power within the art market. 48 00:02:18.860 --> 00:02:25.885 The two Xero art fairs have managed to place 400 works of contemporary art into the homes of art lovers, 49 00:02:26.225 --> 00:02:33.553 most of whom were either new to collecting and or could not remotely afford to purchase these pieces on the regular art market. 50 00:02:34.374 --> 00:02:35.202 How could this happen? 51 00:02:36.014 --> 00:02:40.483 Because the art was free with a five-year store-to-own agreement. 52 00:02:41.218 --> 00:02:42.983 I can't wait for you to hear how it all works. 53 00:02:43.636 --> 00:02:48.321 I started off our conversation by asking Jen and Bill to walk me through what I, 54 00:02:48.961 --> 00:02:51.063 as an art lover of limited means, 55 00:02:51.704 --> 00:02:55.250 would have experienced when I arrived at Zero Art Fair. 56 00:02:55.969 --> 00:02:56.110 Well, 57 00:02:56.111 --> 00:02:58.368 it depends on if it was the first fair or the second fair. 58 00:02:59.110 --> 00:03:01.000 Let's do the second fair, 59 00:03:01.001 --> 00:03:04.469 because I'm going to talk to you later about different changes you made between the first two. 60 00:03:05.672 --> 00:03:05.875 Okay, 61 00:03:05.985 --> 00:03:06.141 Bill, 62 00:03:06.157 --> 00:03:08.172 you want to talk through the second fair at Flag? 63 00:03:09.141 --> 00:03:09.328 Yeah, 64 00:03:09.594 --> 00:03:09.828 well, 65 00:03:10.547 --> 00:03:10.782 you know, 66 00:03:10.907 --> 00:03:12.719 we'll cover this difference later. 67 00:03:12.922 --> 00:03:13.219 but yeah 68 00:03:13.288 --> 00:03:14.289 for the second fair, 69 00:03:14.769 --> 00:03:17.393 not only did you have to know about Zero Art Fair, 70 00:03:18.131 --> 00:03:24.701 you had to know that there was a registration period ahead of the fair where you could go on our website, 71 00:03:25.123 --> 00:03:28.279 answer a few very simple questions about who you are, 72 00:03:28.420 --> 00:03:29.779 give us some contact info, 73 00:03:30.357 --> 00:03:33.404 and put yourself in one of kind of three buckets, 74 00:03:33.514 --> 00:03:35.826 whether you needed help to live with art, 75 00:03:36.107 --> 00:03:41.717 if you could normally afford to live with art or if you could help others live with art. 76 00:03:41.748 --> 00:03:42.764 And based on... 77 00:03:43.168 --> 00:03:44.308 those responses, 78 00:03:44.448 --> 00:03:47.650 we prioritized access for people who needed, 79 00:03:47.767 --> 00:03:50.248 we said they needed help to live with art. 80 00:03:50.431 --> 00:03:51.888 That's a big change between the two. 81 00:03:51.889 --> 00:03:52.287 Yeah. 82 00:03:52.466 --> 00:03:53.709 Imagine what happened in the first, 83 00:03:53.732 --> 00:03:55.591 since you were on the literal art map, 84 00:03:56.107 --> 00:04:01.349 a lot of people who did have means probably showed up first. 85 00:04:01.490 --> 00:04:05.271 We certainly had a few folks who would fit that category, 86 00:04:05.318 --> 00:04:10.521 particularly because the Wall Street Journal surprisingly wrote a very friendly, 87 00:04:11.990 --> 00:04:12.271 you know. 88 00:04:12.456 --> 00:04:14.398 kind of preview of what the fair was. 89 00:04:14.498 --> 00:04:14.619 So, 90 00:04:14.838 --> 00:04:15.100 you know, 91 00:04:15.299 --> 00:04:21.346 I think we had one couple that rolled in from Connecticut who claimed they had never really bought art before, 92 00:04:21.705 --> 00:04:25.408 but clearly had found out about it from reading the Wall Street Journal. 93 00:04:25.627 --> 00:04:26.869 I think they said as much. 94 00:04:27.447 --> 00:04:27.572 Yeah, 95 00:04:27.635 --> 00:04:29.057 just to continue with that process, 96 00:04:29.213 --> 00:04:32.900 once people registered and let us know they were interested in the fair, 97 00:04:33.072 --> 00:04:41.307 we kind of used a weighted randomizer to sort of assign tickets and timed entry slots because we had to balance 98 00:04:41.700 --> 00:04:41.941 you know, 99 00:04:41.961 --> 00:04:47.148 how many people could physically come into the space with the available amount of artwork, 100 00:04:47.269 --> 00:04:49.652 so there wouldn't be sort of nothing left, 101 00:04:49.957 --> 00:04:50.215 you know, 102 00:04:50.238 --> 00:04:51.777 in the last hours of the fair. 103 00:04:52.582 --> 00:04:55.722 And that definitely presented some challenges we can talk about, 104 00:04:55.762 --> 00:04:55.902 but... 105 00:04:56.629 --> 00:05:03.415 Once somebody had a ticket and assigned time slot and they came up the elevator to the ninth floor of Flag Art Foundation, 106 00:05:03.876 --> 00:05:05.220 they could walk in. 107 00:05:05.595 --> 00:05:08.821 If they saw work that they were interested in taking home, 108 00:05:09.298 --> 00:05:09.642 they could, 109 00:05:10.118 --> 00:05:10.361 one, 110 00:05:10.665 --> 00:05:10.900 you know, 111 00:05:10.901 --> 00:05:11.767 if they had means, 112 00:05:11.845 --> 00:05:13.759 they could buy the artwork outright still, 113 00:05:14.384 --> 00:05:15.821 which happened in a few cases. 114 00:05:16.228 --> 00:05:21.556 And or they could ask to sign the contract and take the work upstairs, 115 00:05:22.071 --> 00:05:25.681 have it packed up and take it home with them that day. 116 00:05:26.581 --> 00:05:30.345 So that's the basic process for how people get work. 117 00:05:30.464 --> 00:05:32.767 And inevitably in that equation, 118 00:05:32.787 --> 00:05:33.908 there was always somebody who'd say, 119 00:05:33.927 --> 00:05:34.771 so when do I pay? 120 00:05:35.646 --> 00:05:36.154 And we're like, 121 00:05:36.388 --> 00:05:36.833 you don't. 122 00:05:37.255 --> 00:05:37.654 Not yet. 123 00:05:38.076 --> 00:05:40.896 Unless you want to buy it outright. 124 00:05:41.216 --> 00:05:42.583 Yeah, 125 00:05:42.662 --> 00:05:43.740 unless you want to buy it outright, 126 00:05:43.741 --> 00:05:47.755 you don't have to put any money down to take this work home. 127 00:05:48.255 --> 00:05:52.099 But if you were to sell the work after a period of five years, 128 00:05:52.240 --> 00:05:54.083 you would have to pay the artist 50% 129 00:05:54.662 --> 00:05:56.177 of that sale price. 130 00:05:57.581 --> 00:05:57.761 Yeah, 131 00:05:57.881 --> 00:05:59.784 and the artist never gives up copyright. 132 00:06:00.524 --> 00:06:00.704 Right. 133 00:06:01.526 --> 00:06:03.487 So the new friend, 134 00:06:03.506 --> 00:06:04.026 the collector, 135 00:06:04.069 --> 00:06:06.792 takes immediate physical possession of the work. 136 00:06:07.253 --> 00:06:08.510 I love that in the contract, 137 00:06:08.651 --> 00:06:10.073 your collector is called friend. 138 00:06:10.534 --> 00:06:10.651 Yeah. 139 00:06:12.237 --> 00:06:12.995 As Amy Whitaker, 140 00:06:13.034 --> 00:06:15.073 who helped build with that original contract, 141 00:06:15.432 --> 00:06:16.042 has mentioned, 142 00:06:16.542 --> 00:06:17.823 the contract just gets less. 143 00:06:18.307 --> 00:06:20.245 It started out extremely friendly, 144 00:06:20.760 --> 00:06:22.042 but as we've had to... 145 00:06:23.133 --> 00:06:23.353 you know, 146 00:06:23.453 --> 00:06:24.414 strengthen the language. 147 00:06:24.455 --> 00:06:25.756 It's getting a little less friendly, 148 00:06:25.795 --> 00:06:26.957 but it holds some, 149 00:06:27.338 --> 00:06:28.920 still has some friendly aspects. 150 00:06:29.541 --> 00:06:32.721 So the person who's holding the work, 151 00:06:32.760 --> 00:06:33.400 who's storing, 152 00:06:33.424 --> 00:06:33.666 you know, 153 00:06:33.705 --> 00:06:35.728 Bill originally called the contract store to own. 154 00:06:35.822 --> 00:06:39.010 So they're storing the work for five years and ownership is gradually vesting. 155 00:06:39.345 --> 00:06:40.377 And then after five years, 156 00:06:40.877 --> 00:06:41.377 they will, 157 00:06:41.471 --> 00:06:43.221 if nothing changes in the interim, 158 00:06:43.377 --> 00:06:44.627 there's a couple of caveats, 159 00:06:44.674 --> 00:06:46.033 but if nothing changes in the interim, 160 00:06:46.095 --> 00:06:46.877 after the five years, 161 00:06:46.924 --> 00:06:48.424 the new owner, 162 00:06:48.595 --> 00:06:51.408 the new store completely owns the work outright. 163 00:06:52.109 --> 00:06:55.734 But should the new owner sell the work thereafter, 164 00:06:56.195 --> 00:07:00.257 the artist gets a portion of proceeds from any future sales. 165 00:07:00.281 --> 00:07:00.999 Is that correct? 166 00:07:01.320 --> 00:07:01.515 Yes, 167 00:07:01.617 --> 00:07:01.859 50%. 168 00:07:03.140 --> 00:07:03.882 Yeah, 169 00:07:04.640 --> 00:07:07.585 this would be technically the first sale of the work. 170 00:07:08.038 --> 00:07:15.070 And the artist would also be granted subsequent resale royalties on future sales of the work. 171 00:07:15.648 --> 00:07:17.773 And that is a 10% 172 00:07:17.976 --> 00:07:18.757 resale royalty. 173 00:07:19.695 --> 00:07:20.991 definitely borrows from 174 00:07:21.221 --> 00:07:42.759 you know european right to sweet and like resale royalties that those artists get to enjoy because here should either of you sell a work of art to a collector you have no more rights to that work of art no no economic or moral rights collector can pretty much do whatever they want yeah 175 00:07:42.853 --> 00:07:50.040 yeah yeah so we we asked Alfred Steiner to see if he could graft on some of the language from 176 00:07:50.369 --> 00:07:52.290 French moral rights for artists, 177 00:07:52.351 --> 00:08:00.542 including the ability to ask a work not be necessarily exhibited in an exhibition that they didn't want their work to be shown. 178 00:08:00.957 --> 00:08:01.402 Is there, 179 00:08:01.503 --> 00:08:02.417 it seems to me, 180 00:08:02.683 --> 00:08:04.105 because I'm an idealist, 181 00:08:04.121 --> 00:08:06.566 that this should be par for the course. 182 00:08:06.644 --> 00:08:12.003 Is there a movement for this moral rights to happen here in America? 183 00:08:13.144 --> 00:08:14.988 There have been intermittent movements, 184 00:08:15.581 --> 00:08:17.613 but I think that gallerists, 185 00:08:18.081 --> 00:08:18.816 art dealers, 186 00:08:19.889 --> 00:08:25.777 will say it is already hard enough to sell art and that these, 187 00:08:26.054 --> 00:08:26.296 you know, 188 00:08:26.335 --> 00:08:29.996 resale and moral rights make it even more onerous. 189 00:08:30.980 --> 00:08:35.910 So there are intermittent movements and we would love to be a part of that. 190 00:08:37.081 --> 00:08:37.472 And that's, 191 00:08:37.550 --> 00:08:37.785 you know, 192 00:08:37.863 --> 00:08:43.269 seeding the art ecosystem with these 400 or so works that over the past two fairs, 193 00:08:43.316 --> 00:08:43.550 you know, 194 00:08:43.566 --> 00:08:46.800 that is one effort that we're trying to advance. 195 00:08:47.773 --> 00:08:49.876 it doesn't seem to gather a lot of steam, 196 00:08:50.056 --> 00:08:51.136 at least not so far. 197 00:08:52.978 --> 00:08:57.142 And I want to make sure I understand the vesting system also over those five years. 198 00:08:57.642 --> 00:08:58.103 It's 20% 199 00:08:58.767 --> 00:08:59.142 each year. 200 00:08:59.143 --> 00:08:59.946 Is that correct? 201 00:09:01.767 --> 00:09:10.439 So during one of the things that could happen during the vesting period that changes the contract or that changes the trajectory is that an artist, 202 00:09:10.501 --> 00:09:14.845 like say you have a work of mine and you've held it for two years and 203 00:09:15.517 --> 00:09:17.267 I am approached by someone else who'd like to 204 00:09:17.245 --> 00:09:17.565 to buy it. 205 00:09:18.165 --> 00:09:19.985 And for easy math sake, 206 00:09:20.065 --> 00:09:21.507 let's say they want to buy this work from, 207 00:09:22.046 --> 00:09:22.425 they say, 208 00:09:22.468 --> 00:09:23.386 is this work available? 209 00:09:23.448 --> 00:09:25.284 I would buy this for a thousand dollars. 210 00:09:26.026 --> 00:09:26.925 I would go to you, 211 00:09:27.589 --> 00:09:30.925 you would get right of first refusal and you would get a 40% 212 00:09:31.448 --> 00:09:36.245 discount off of that price that I'm being offered because you have a 40% 213 00:09:36.870 --> 00:09:38.511 interest in the work at this point. 214 00:09:38.807 --> 00:09:39.604 After two years. 215 00:09:39.745 --> 00:09:39.933 Yeah. 216 00:09:41.057 --> 00:09:41.933 And then if I, 217 00:09:41.995 --> 00:09:43.245 so I either get the 40% 218 00:09:43.667 --> 00:09:44.464 discount or I say, 219 00:09:44.573 --> 00:09:44.698 no, 220 00:09:44.792 --> 00:09:45.151 thanks. 221 00:09:45.276 --> 00:09:46.104 And then you're 222 00:09:46.513 --> 00:09:48.215 your $1,000 buyer gets to work. 223 00:09:48.475 --> 00:09:48.876 That's right. 224 00:09:50.999 --> 00:09:51.897 Has that happened yet? 225 00:09:52.421 --> 00:09:52.601 No. 226 00:09:53.518 --> 00:09:53.640 No. 227 00:09:54.179 --> 00:09:54.300 No, 228 00:09:54.382 --> 00:09:55.319 it hasn't happened. 229 00:09:56.266 --> 00:09:56.386 Yeah, 230 00:09:56.446 --> 00:09:59.389 and Bill's original bunch of work, 231 00:10:00.010 --> 00:10:00.391 30-something, 232 00:10:00.430 --> 00:10:00.750 I think, 233 00:10:00.809 --> 00:10:03.973 works that he used the contract to transfer. 234 00:10:04.813 --> 00:10:05.696 Those are all vested, 235 00:10:05.758 --> 00:10:05.977 right? 236 00:10:06.032 --> 00:10:07.157 It's been more than five years, 237 00:10:07.219 --> 00:10:07.399 too. 238 00:10:08.297 --> 00:10:09.321 Yeah, 239 00:10:09.641 --> 00:10:11.438 all of those works have transferred, 240 00:10:11.664 --> 00:10:16.766 and I have not been approached by any collectors interested in buying that work. 241 00:10:17.532 --> 00:10:19.094 And no one has, 242 00:10:19.735 --> 00:10:20.688 to my knowledge, 243 00:10:21.313 --> 00:10:24.547 tried to sell the work after the period so far. 244 00:10:24.969 --> 00:10:25.235 Right. 245 00:10:25.490 --> 00:10:26.511 because according to the contract, 246 00:10:26.551 --> 00:10:27.950 you would have to be notified. 247 00:10:28.930 --> 00:10:29.132 Well, 248 00:10:29.411 --> 00:10:30.192 that is one of the, 249 00:10:30.571 --> 00:10:30.833 you know, 250 00:10:30.852 --> 00:10:33.614 sort of asks and collector responsibilities. 251 00:10:33.895 --> 00:10:34.270 We also, 252 00:10:34.630 --> 00:10:34.872 you know, 253 00:10:34.911 --> 00:10:35.872 tell artists like, 254 00:10:36.512 --> 00:10:36.856 set up, 255 00:10:37.169 --> 00:10:37.434 you know, 256 00:10:37.630 --> 00:10:42.434 Google alerts for your name or the titles of these works. 257 00:10:43.106 --> 00:10:43.497 Because, 258 00:10:43.498 --> 00:10:43.731 you know, 259 00:10:43.732 --> 00:10:45.997 there are many regional auction houses, 260 00:10:46.356 --> 00:10:46.591 you know, 261 00:10:46.638 --> 00:10:52.575 throughout the United States of where works come up for sale and they don't have the same visibility as, 262 00:10:52.638 --> 00:10:52.919 you know, 263 00:10:53.075 --> 00:10:54.294 a Sotheby's or Christie's sale. 264 00:10:56.519 --> 00:11:05.699 I can understand how this system benefits a collector of limited means who wants to get into the game or just loves art and would love to have art she loves in her house. 265 00:11:06.402 --> 00:11:08.543 How does it benefit participating artists? 266 00:11:09.418 --> 00:11:10.324 There are a few ways. 267 00:11:10.402 --> 00:11:10.621 I mean, 268 00:11:10.645 --> 00:11:13.856 the first most obvious one that we talk about is that, 269 00:11:14.246 --> 00:11:14.496 you know, 270 00:11:14.527 --> 00:11:15.090 most artists, 271 00:11:15.137 --> 00:11:16.715 especially when they get to a certain age, 272 00:11:16.762 --> 00:11:18.543 they're storing a lot of work. 273 00:11:19.230 --> 00:11:20.559 Storage is expensive. 274 00:11:21.090 --> 00:11:22.621 It also kind of weighs you down. 275 00:11:22.746 --> 00:11:23.871 It's also depressing. 276 00:11:24.666 --> 00:11:25.046 Right. 277 00:11:25.247 --> 00:11:25.367 So, 278 00:11:26.388 --> 00:11:26.628 you know, 279 00:11:26.629 --> 00:11:27.908 it isn't sustainable, 280 00:11:28.068 --> 00:11:29.291 as we say over and over again. 281 00:11:29.350 --> 00:11:31.213 It really isn't sustainable for artists. 282 00:11:31.291 --> 00:11:33.494 It's not like artists can give away all their work. 283 00:11:33.932 --> 00:11:35.596 But many of us are storing a lot of work. 284 00:11:35.597 --> 00:11:35.635 No, 285 00:11:35.636 --> 00:11:36.580 because if they did, 286 00:11:36.682 --> 00:11:37.455 in our system, 287 00:11:38.182 --> 00:11:40.478 the value of their work would start to diminish, 288 00:11:40.541 --> 00:11:40.775 right? 289 00:11:40.885 --> 00:11:41.119 Right. 290 00:11:41.838 --> 00:11:44.041 But many artists are storing a lot of work, 291 00:11:44.244 --> 00:11:46.604 and they could let go of a couple works. 292 00:11:47.713 --> 00:11:50.025 And so in addition to clearing storage, 293 00:11:50.072 --> 00:11:51.119 which is one. 294 00:11:51.730 --> 00:11:53.290 way it benefits artists. 295 00:11:53.351 --> 00:12:01.652 I think most artists really are sad to see that their work is not in a loving home and benefit from the connection, 296 00:12:01.715 --> 00:12:06.949 a new connection made with a person who would not normally be able to afford it. 297 00:12:07.012 --> 00:12:07.231 I mean, 298 00:12:07.254 --> 00:12:08.012 I know many of us, 299 00:12:08.621 --> 00:12:09.496 it's an awkward, 300 00:12:09.793 --> 00:12:16.574 uncomfortable situation for our work to be priced at an amount that people in our class cannot purchase, 301 00:12:17.356 --> 00:12:17.621 you know, 302 00:12:17.622 --> 00:12:19.199 So to be able to make work available to, 303 00:12:20.074 --> 00:12:20.356 you know. 304 00:12:20.558 --> 00:12:20.958 quote unquote, 305 00:12:21.038 --> 00:12:24.042 regular people is a really beautiful thing. 306 00:12:24.241 --> 00:12:26.702 And then the third thing I would say is that, 307 00:12:27.526 --> 00:12:27.765 you know, 308 00:12:27.766 --> 00:12:34.772 there is an activist component to this where we're trying to enlarge the community of people who feel that art is for them. 309 00:12:35.413 --> 00:12:39.069 And we feel that if that community can be enlarged, 310 00:12:39.335 --> 00:12:39.600 you know, 311 00:12:39.632 --> 00:12:44.163 if more people feel like fine art is something that is not just for the elite, 312 00:12:44.507 --> 00:12:46.116 that would increase art support, 313 00:12:46.397 --> 00:12:46.647 you know, 314 00:12:46.741 --> 00:12:47.929 in the general population. 315 00:12:48.334 --> 00:12:48.574 you know, 316 00:12:48.594 --> 00:12:51.116 we've been saying a long time art needs to make friends. 317 00:12:51.778 --> 00:12:51.997 Yeah, 318 00:12:52.157 --> 00:12:52.399 you know, 319 00:12:52.439 --> 00:12:54.821 I think if you're trying to make an argument that there should be, 320 00:12:55.200 --> 00:12:55.442 you know, 321 00:12:55.482 --> 00:12:57.942 greater public funding for artists, 322 00:12:58.263 --> 00:12:58.521 you know, 323 00:12:58.724 --> 00:13:03.106 this is an avenue in which art can get outside of the 1% 324 00:13:03.646 --> 00:13:03.888 and, 325 00:13:03.966 --> 00:13:04.192 you know, 326 00:13:04.208 --> 00:13:07.325 the sort of upper classes to working class people, 327 00:13:07.528 --> 00:13:07.810 you know, 328 00:13:07.872 --> 00:13:08.341 and right now, 329 00:13:08.356 --> 00:13:10.356 it's a lot of people who work in the arts, 330 00:13:10.419 --> 00:13:11.653 but also can't afford, 331 00:13:12.232 --> 00:13:12.450 you know, 332 00:13:12.497 --> 00:13:17.060 the thing that they have sort of dedicated their lives to and that condition, 333 00:13:17.325 --> 00:13:17.575 you know 334 00:13:18.174 --> 00:13:19.755 applies to a lot of artists too. 335 00:13:19.776 --> 00:13:24.140 A lot of us can't afford the things that we make or the things that our friends make. 336 00:13:24.882 --> 00:13:26.023 So in some ways, 337 00:13:26.382 --> 00:13:36.210 artists have long had a system to deal with this where they trade with each other and often works of sometimes very incommensurate economic value. 338 00:13:37.070 --> 00:13:45.054 And I think we do talk about this with artists that there may not be this kind of direct material benefit from the economic value of the work, 339 00:13:45.335 --> 00:13:46.116 but we don't. 340 00:13:46.334 --> 00:13:47.496 give up on that value. 341 00:13:47.515 --> 00:13:49.117 We're not just giving the work away. 342 00:13:49.238 --> 00:13:51.039 There's a kind of delay, 343 00:13:51.922 --> 00:13:52.179 you know, 344 00:13:52.242 --> 00:13:56.765 in the possibility of receiving economic compensation for the value of the work. 345 00:13:57.382 --> 00:13:58.906 And so it's still possible. 346 00:13:59.328 --> 00:13:59.664 And, 347 00:13:59.711 --> 00:13:59.945 you know, 348 00:14:00.007 --> 00:14:02.828 we hope that like kind of seeding, 349 00:14:03.172 --> 00:14:03.406 you know, 350 00:14:03.453 --> 00:14:06.781 the idea that artists could retain equity in their work, 351 00:14:07.109 --> 00:14:11.484 that artists deserve or should receive resale royalties, 352 00:14:11.953 --> 00:14:15.468 I think is something that benefits artists as a whole or a community. 353 00:14:16.114 --> 00:14:18.076 And so that's part of the balance of, 354 00:14:18.156 --> 00:14:18.396 you know, 355 00:14:18.397 --> 00:14:26.583 an artist might be giving up a small fraction of inventory that they've made that hopefully has been exhibited previously, 356 00:14:26.724 --> 00:14:28.904 that has had an opportunity to sell, 357 00:14:29.005 --> 00:14:30.607 but maybe didn't find a buyer. 358 00:14:31.427 --> 00:14:31.568 That, 359 00:14:31.569 --> 00:14:31.786 you know, 360 00:14:32.224 --> 00:14:34.912 there is this kind of longer term benefit for the whole, 361 00:14:35.130 --> 00:14:35.396 you know, 362 00:14:35.458 --> 00:14:39.036 rather than just to kind of focus on how does this benefit me directly. 363 00:14:40.021 --> 00:14:44.115 Have you gotten any pushback or resistance from? 364 00:14:44.658 --> 00:14:50.088 Or any unexpected pushback or reactions from any artists you approach to take part? 365 00:14:51.772 --> 00:14:53.596 I guess I wouldn't say unexpected. 366 00:14:53.651 --> 00:14:53.956 I mean, 367 00:14:54.377 --> 00:14:55.674 we expected pushback. 368 00:14:57.378 --> 00:14:58.680 What does that look like? 369 00:14:58.940 --> 00:15:06.408 Just artists who don't want to give their work away and would prefer to hold on to it in their studios in the hope, 370 00:15:06.650 --> 00:15:06.924 you know, 371 00:15:07.510 --> 00:15:08.893 that it would be sold. 372 00:15:10.088 --> 00:15:10.393 And, 373 00:15:10.588 --> 00:15:10.854 you know, 374 00:15:11.854 --> 00:15:13.033 we are just like, 375 00:15:13.034 --> 00:15:13.315 great, 376 00:15:13.791 --> 00:15:14.041 you know, 377 00:15:14.416 --> 00:15:16.291 this idea isn't for everyone. 378 00:15:17.713 --> 00:15:18.291 But I would say, 379 00:15:18.479 --> 00:15:18.776 you know, 380 00:15:18.885 --> 00:15:21.369 I was surprised at how few people that was. 381 00:15:21.447 --> 00:15:21.604 Like, 382 00:15:21.619 --> 00:15:24.088 we really did get a lot of positive. 383 00:15:25.382 --> 00:15:27.544 positive response and people wanting to do it, 384 00:15:27.704 --> 00:15:30.005 like a much greater percentage than I would have guessed. 385 00:15:30.806 --> 00:15:33.169 I'd love to hear about some like fun, 386 00:15:34.169 --> 00:15:40.435 wonderful surprises or stories you've heard or experienced in the 2-0 art fairs. 387 00:15:41.599 --> 00:15:44.364 One kind of comes immediately to mind. 388 00:15:44.443 --> 00:15:51.505 We had a kind of reception for the artists and their new collectors that took place after the fair this fall. 389 00:15:51.630 --> 00:15:52.786 That's a great idea. 390 00:15:52.943 --> 00:15:53.786 I'm glad you did that. 391 00:15:54.987 --> 00:15:57.169 That idea came directly from 392 00:15:57.729 --> 00:15:58.391 Glenn Furman, 393 00:15:58.989 --> 00:16:00.294 who sort of founded Flag. 394 00:16:00.372 --> 00:16:01.454 It's his collection. 395 00:16:01.911 --> 00:16:05.755 He thought it would be something really important to try to build these relationships. 396 00:16:05.802 --> 00:16:11.739 So we can thank Glenn for making that possible and coming up with that concept. 397 00:16:12.348 --> 00:16:13.645 While we were at that reception, 398 00:16:13.708 --> 00:16:14.474 one of the artists, 399 00:16:14.645 --> 00:16:15.708 Diana Spungen, 400 00:16:16.427 --> 00:16:22.317 said that it turned out that the collector of her work was a curator. 401 00:16:22.810 --> 00:16:24.332 of the Jack Witten show, 402 00:16:24.333 --> 00:16:25.312 or was the curator, 403 00:16:25.353 --> 00:16:25.834 I should say, 404 00:16:25.873 --> 00:16:27.916 of the Jack Witten retrospective at MoMA, 405 00:16:28.678 --> 00:16:28.916 and, 406 00:16:28.998 --> 00:16:29.256 you know, 407 00:16:29.357 --> 00:16:29.877 invited 408 00:16:30.357 --> 00:16:36.724 Diana to come to MoMA and gave her like a three hour tour of the show, 409 00:16:37.107 --> 00:16:38.959 which was sort of wonderful, 410 00:16:39.162 --> 00:16:39.428 you know, 411 00:16:39.568 --> 00:16:39.740 that, 412 00:16:40.552 --> 00:16:40.802 you know, 413 00:16:40.849 --> 00:16:48.818 she sort of developed a new relationship with somebody who may be in a position to look at her work or make some connections for her. 414 00:16:49.396 --> 00:16:49.584 And, 415 00:16:49.631 --> 00:16:49.881 you know, 416 00:16:49.882 --> 00:16:51.818 it's one of these tricky things where we might think, 417 00:16:52.050 --> 00:16:52.330 you know, 418 00:16:52.370 --> 00:16:54.552 a curator at that level must have, 419 00:16:54.793 --> 00:16:55.033 you know, 420 00:16:55.072 --> 00:16:57.916 enormous wealth or something that they could somehow afford to buy work. 421 00:16:57.955 --> 00:16:59.599 But we also know that, 422 00:16:59.697 --> 00:16:59.959 you know, 423 00:17:00.240 --> 00:17:02.396 many curators are not that well paid. 424 00:17:02.584 --> 00:17:02.943 Right. 425 00:17:02.944 --> 00:17:05.506 He might be in the second bucket that you mentioned. 426 00:17:05.763 --> 00:17:05.967 Yeah. 427 00:17:06.224 --> 00:17:06.428 Yeah. 428 00:17:06.646 --> 00:17:07.623 And so I think it was just, 429 00:17:07.763 --> 00:17:08.006 I mean, 430 00:17:08.287 --> 00:17:15.490 Diana was so excited and just pleased with that outcome that I wish everyone could have that kind of same experience with, 431 00:17:15.912 --> 00:17:16.146 you know, 432 00:17:16.178 --> 00:17:16.881 their collector. 433 00:17:17.052 --> 00:17:20.802 But we know it's like a really interesting range of people that... 434 00:17:20.950 --> 00:17:23.853 came to the fair and were interested in taking the work home. 435 00:17:24.452 --> 00:17:27.937 But that one really just jumped out at me that she had such a kind of great, 436 00:17:28.238 --> 00:17:28.558 you know, 437 00:17:28.738 --> 00:17:34.640 kind of outcome with placing some very large difficult to place sculptures and paintings. 438 00:17:35.304 --> 00:17:38.140 Another thing that comes to mind is that, 439 00:17:38.249 --> 00:17:38.484 you know, 440 00:17:38.546 --> 00:17:41.249 during the first fair that was part of Upstate Art Weekend, 441 00:17:41.296 --> 00:17:42.937 so people are running around from, 442 00:17:43.296 --> 00:17:43.531 you know, 443 00:17:43.656 --> 00:17:44.812 venue to venue to venue, 444 00:17:45.156 --> 00:17:45.374 you know, 445 00:17:45.421 --> 00:17:46.468 in the Hudson Valley, 446 00:17:47.093 --> 00:17:50.234 somebody came to Zero Art and procured. 447 00:17:50.490 --> 00:17:51.512 their first, 448 00:17:51.513 --> 00:17:52.271 the first work, 449 00:17:52.633 --> 00:17:52.892 you know, 450 00:17:52.953 --> 00:17:53.652 that they'd ever, 451 00:17:54.234 --> 00:17:56.418 the first original art they'd ever owned. 452 00:17:56.937 --> 00:18:04.387 And then we later found out they went to another gallery and they bought the first work that they'd ever purchased. 453 00:18:04.941 --> 00:18:05.582 And I think that, 454 00:18:05.668 --> 00:18:05.926 you know, 455 00:18:05.965 --> 00:18:06.246 I just, 456 00:18:06.863 --> 00:18:07.566 we have thinking, 457 00:18:07.613 --> 00:18:07.785 well, 458 00:18:07.801 --> 00:18:08.082 I guess, 459 00:18:08.254 --> 00:18:08.488 you know, 460 00:18:08.504 --> 00:18:09.426 the first one's free, 461 00:18:09.676 --> 00:18:09.926 you know, 462 00:18:10.004 --> 00:18:10.644 we're starting, 463 00:18:11.129 --> 00:18:13.426 we're starting a cycle of generosity. 464 00:18:14.488 --> 00:18:14.879 We are, 465 00:18:15.160 --> 00:18:15.394 you know, 466 00:18:15.457 --> 00:18:18.254 getting people to see that this is something that 467 00:18:18.502 --> 00:18:19.643 that is within reach, 468 00:18:19.844 --> 00:18:20.104 you know, 469 00:18:20.203 --> 00:18:20.324 and, 470 00:18:21.305 --> 00:18:21.906 and yeah, 471 00:18:21.984 --> 00:18:22.926 encouraging people to, 472 00:18:23.266 --> 00:18:24.188 to see art that way. 473 00:18:24.227 --> 00:18:25.367 And we really do hope that, 474 00:18:25.570 --> 00:18:25.848 you know, 475 00:18:25.988 --> 00:18:27.734 anybody who can buy art does, 476 00:18:28.274 --> 00:18:29.672 and perhaps seeding them with, 477 00:18:29.977 --> 00:18:33.180 with an easy entry point can help spur that. 478 00:18:34.281 --> 00:18:35.578 I wonder if you can, 479 00:18:35.625 --> 00:18:35.953 because we, 480 00:18:36.172 --> 00:18:37.266 we touched on this, 481 00:18:37.781 --> 00:18:42.953 if either of you can remember a time or that time when you realize, 482 00:18:43.344 --> 00:18:43.469 oh, 483 00:18:44.063 --> 00:18:46.047 I couldn't actually afford a work of my own, 484 00:18:46.484 --> 00:18:47.610 a work of my own art. 485 00:18:49.014 --> 00:18:49.234 Oh, 486 00:18:49.535 --> 00:18:51.698 I feel like artists talk about that all the time. 487 00:18:51.997 --> 00:18:52.118 Yeah. 488 00:18:52.416 --> 00:18:52.698 And it, 489 00:18:52.858 --> 00:18:53.038 and, 490 00:18:53.139 --> 00:18:53.440 you know, 491 00:18:53.639 --> 00:18:54.659 it creates this, 492 00:18:54.959 --> 00:18:56.202 this strange feeling to, 493 00:18:56.924 --> 00:18:57.760 to have, 494 00:18:58.206 --> 00:18:58.463 you know, 495 00:18:58.487 --> 00:19:06.745 a dollar value placed on your work out in the world that puts it out of reach of everyone you know, 496 00:19:07.166 --> 00:19:07.651 you know, 497 00:19:08.698 --> 00:19:09.370 and then you're, 498 00:19:09.371 --> 00:19:09.635 you know, 499 00:19:09.760 --> 00:19:10.979 and then that means that. 500 00:19:11.135 --> 00:19:12.698 It's also a mark of great success. 501 00:19:12.916 --> 00:19:13.057 It's, 502 00:19:13.135 --> 00:19:14.135 it's a double-edged sword, 503 00:19:14.182 --> 00:19:14.573 I guess. 504 00:19:15.104 --> 00:19:15.354 I mean, 505 00:19:15.823 --> 00:19:18.416 I just had a very specific experience. 506 00:19:18.570 --> 00:19:20.351 with that very question. 507 00:19:20.912 --> 00:19:22.732 Speaking of regional auctions, 508 00:19:23.217 --> 00:19:29.998 a collector of mine apparently had passed away and the entire collection was sort of put up for sale in a 509 00:19:30.443 --> 00:19:32.740 Midwestern auction house. 510 00:19:33.248 --> 00:19:35.302 I saw that it was valued at like... 511 00:19:36.365 --> 00:19:43.146 The opening bid on a no reserve auction was something like $200 for a piece that I believe sold for $5,000. 512 00:19:43.147 --> 00:19:44.802 And on social media, 513 00:19:44.818 --> 00:19:45.240 I was like, 514 00:19:45.412 --> 00:19:45.693 Ho-ho! 515 00:19:46.194 --> 00:19:46.455 boy, 516 00:19:46.635 --> 00:19:51.945 I think I'm going to have to try to buy this one back because I'm less able to afford it. 517 00:19:52.183 --> 00:19:52.445 You know, 518 00:19:52.484 --> 00:19:53.226 not that I, 519 00:19:53.285 --> 00:19:53.527 you know, 520 00:19:53.547 --> 00:19:58.613 spending anything over like $500 would put a significant dent in our like monthly budget. 521 00:19:58.840 --> 00:19:59.394 Right. 522 00:19:59.621 --> 00:20:00.902 That would be the ceiling. 523 00:20:01.607 --> 00:20:01.867 And, 524 00:20:02.068 --> 00:20:02.308 you know, 525 00:20:02.309 --> 00:20:03.609 a few people responded, 526 00:20:03.849 --> 00:20:04.150 you know, 527 00:20:04.289 --> 00:20:06.832 on like Blue Sky that they would be interested. 528 00:20:07.074 --> 00:20:12.902 A couple of friends let me know that they were trying to kind of like maybe acquire the work for a thousand or, 529 00:20:13.035 --> 00:20:13.277 you know. 530 00:20:13.582 --> 00:20:13.839 I mean, 531 00:20:13.879 --> 00:20:15.004 ultimately it sold for, 532 00:20:15.418 --> 00:20:15.738 I think, 533 00:20:15.777 --> 00:20:16.941 around two thousand dollars, 534 00:20:17.004 --> 00:20:20.980 which is less than half of its retail value. 535 00:20:21.058 --> 00:20:25.949 But it does show that my work does retain some some value. 536 00:20:26.011 --> 00:20:26.418 But it was, 537 00:20:26.449 --> 00:20:26.699 you know, 538 00:20:26.746 --> 00:20:29.058 sort of it's a painful kind of embarrassing, 539 00:20:29.589 --> 00:20:29.839 you know, 540 00:20:30.027 --> 00:20:30.543 sort of thing. 541 00:20:30.847 --> 00:20:46.963 to happen and knowing that you know i certainly didn't have the means to kind of like reinvest you know into my work or something you know and it's also in a way it must be it's public i mean there must be talk out in the world about 542 00:20:47.119 --> 00:20:59.760 so-and-so's work sold for this amount oh totally right and i mean that's one of the reasons that galleries dislike auction sales in general is it's public and it's not... 543 00:20:59.991 --> 00:21:00.632 controllable. 544 00:21:02.194 --> 00:21:02.354 Yeah, 545 00:21:02.355 --> 00:21:08.477 and I think when Jen mentioned that retail prices are something of a kind of phantasm or something, 546 00:21:08.516 --> 00:21:10.625 there is this sense that it's not just a myth. 547 00:21:11.579 --> 00:21:13.086 Myth is almost too neutral. 548 00:21:13.407 --> 00:21:16.422 There is something it's like a specter. 549 00:21:16.610 --> 00:21:25.141 You're almost haunted by these prices because if works aren't selling for their estimates or above their estimates, 550 00:21:25.657 --> 00:21:29.266 it's like this work is broken or it doesn't... 551 00:21:29.879 --> 00:21:31.300 have the value that it claims. 552 00:21:31.381 --> 00:21:31.521 But, 553 00:21:31.541 --> 00:21:31.761 you know, 554 00:21:33.242 --> 00:21:35.646 so few works actually make it to auction. 555 00:21:35.904 --> 00:21:39.388 There's a kind of institutional bias already that, 556 00:21:39.467 --> 00:21:39.709 you know, 557 00:21:39.710 --> 00:21:42.873 the main auction houses are taking works that they know they can sell, 558 00:21:42.935 --> 00:21:43.896 that they have an audience. 559 00:21:44.115 --> 00:21:44.474 Obviously, 560 00:21:44.537 --> 00:21:46.498 there's some risk and they can't predict the whole thing, 561 00:21:46.576 --> 00:21:48.263 but it's very choreographed, 562 00:21:48.482 --> 00:21:48.763 you know, 563 00:21:48.873 --> 00:21:51.638 to kind of give the appearance that art is, 564 00:21:51.857 --> 00:21:52.107 you know, 565 00:21:52.123 --> 00:21:53.154 this kind of stable, 566 00:21:54.029 --> 00:21:56.029 lucrative investment vehicle, 567 00:21:56.326 --> 00:21:59.013 which is just not the experience that most of us have. 568 00:21:59.539 --> 00:22:01.602 Whether it's selling work in the primary market, 569 00:22:02.141 --> 00:22:02.883 achieving very, 570 00:22:02.983 --> 00:22:04.485 very high prices for the work, 571 00:22:04.684 --> 00:22:08.625 or having a sort of second life in the secondary auction market, 572 00:22:08.930 --> 00:22:09.149 you know, 573 00:22:09.250 --> 00:22:10.492 becoming a kind of commodity. 574 00:22:11.688 --> 00:22:11.852 Right. 575 00:22:11.891 --> 00:22:13.813 And the other thing about prices being, 576 00:22:14.477 --> 00:22:14.735 you know, 577 00:22:14.875 --> 00:22:15.360 some sort of, 578 00:22:15.375 --> 00:22:15.735 I don't know, 579 00:22:15.813 --> 00:22:19.719 propagandistic phantasm or something is that they never go down. 580 00:22:20.297 --> 00:22:21.907 So if or that, 581 00:22:21.908 --> 00:22:22.141 you know, 582 00:22:22.142 --> 00:22:23.500 they never publicly go down. 583 00:22:23.625 --> 00:22:23.750 So, 584 00:22:24.641 --> 00:22:24.860 you know, 585 00:22:24.861 --> 00:22:28.875 if I have a show where my 20 artworks are priced at. 586 00:22:29.135 --> 00:22:34.177 $10,000 and none of them sell at my next show in a few years, 587 00:22:34.196 --> 00:22:37.177 they will be priced at $15,000. 588 00:22:37.919 --> 00:22:38.497 And that's like, 589 00:22:38.598 --> 00:22:40.497 what kind of so-called market is that? 590 00:22:42.880 --> 00:22:43.700 And because, 591 00:22:43.755 --> 00:22:44.020 you know, 592 00:22:44.036 --> 00:22:47.731 you can't ever upset people who bought your work for the lower price by, 593 00:22:48.856 --> 00:22:49.106 I mean, 594 00:22:49.153 --> 00:22:49.403 by the, 595 00:22:49.575 --> 00:22:51.544 for the higher price by lowering your prices. 596 00:22:51.606 --> 00:22:53.137 But then it just means that, 597 00:22:53.419 --> 00:22:53.684 you know, 598 00:22:53.685 --> 00:22:55.747 your prices get further and further from reality. 599 00:22:56.956 --> 00:22:57.576 Yeah, 600 00:22:57.577 --> 00:22:57.777 I mean, 601 00:22:57.816 --> 00:23:02.720 it's based on this notion that there's a kind of fairness standard, 602 00:23:02.943 --> 00:23:03.263 you know, 603 00:23:03.423 --> 00:23:05.747 in retail that somehow, 604 00:23:05.904 --> 00:23:06.162 you know, 605 00:23:06.224 --> 00:23:10.591 like the art market doesn't operate like a lot of other familiar markets, 606 00:23:10.630 --> 00:23:10.888 you know, 607 00:23:11.232 --> 00:23:14.732 the pricing system is sort of monodirectional upward. 608 00:23:15.497 --> 00:23:17.732 But this idea of fairness is sort of like, 609 00:23:18.201 --> 00:23:18.732 the question is, 610 00:23:18.935 --> 00:23:20.060 who is it fair to? 611 00:23:20.591 --> 00:23:20.873 You know, 612 00:23:20.919 --> 00:23:25.607 is it only fair to people with the means that can buy the artwork or? 613 00:23:26.059 --> 00:23:28.820 Could we think about fairness sort of progressively, 614 00:23:29.640 --> 00:23:29.959 you know, 615 00:23:30.201 --> 00:23:34.798 and think about prices being something that's flexible for different audiences, 616 00:23:34.837 --> 00:23:35.962 different demographics, 617 00:23:36.158 --> 00:23:36.439 you know, 618 00:23:37.541 --> 00:23:41.384 within our kind of market-based consumer society? 619 00:23:42.064 --> 00:23:42.642 But it is, 620 00:23:42.830 --> 00:23:45.283 it's a question that I think is still one of those kind of, 621 00:23:45.970 --> 00:23:46.189 you know, 622 00:23:46.190 --> 00:23:51.017 very touchy or sort of sore points around this idea of kind of fairness. 623 00:23:51.970 --> 00:23:52.517 Yeah. 624 00:23:52.518 --> 00:23:52.642 Yeah, 625 00:23:52.643 --> 00:23:53.158 in the art market. 626 00:23:53.383 --> 00:23:55.906 Do you remember this is a bit of an out-of-field question, 627 00:23:55.965 --> 00:24:02.332 but do each of you remember the first work of art that you loved that you were able to afford? 628 00:24:04.136 --> 00:24:04.410 Yeah. 629 00:24:05.535 --> 00:24:05.957 For me, 630 00:24:06.433 --> 00:24:09.863 my wife and I were visiting Schroeder Romero Gallery, 631 00:24:10.160 --> 00:24:14.457 which is a gallery I ended up actually showing with a few years later. 632 00:24:14.629 --> 00:24:17.347 But we were at a group show they had curated, 633 00:24:17.441 --> 00:24:18.863 and there was a small painting, 634 00:24:19.972 --> 00:24:22.191 part of a group of small works by this artist. 635 00:24:22.343 --> 00:24:23.204 Jack Chartier, 636 00:24:23.324 --> 00:24:24.626 who is from Seattle. 637 00:24:24.925 --> 00:24:27.107 And I just sort of become aware of their work. 638 00:24:27.146 --> 00:24:30.310 So I was participating in a group show in Seattle. 639 00:24:31.075 --> 00:24:34.372 And it was like a $400 painting. 640 00:24:34.732 --> 00:24:42.247 And my wife and I made a payment schedule with the gallery to kind of pay it off over the period of like four or five months. 641 00:24:43.029 --> 00:24:50.232 But that was the first work that we both agreed upon that we would purchase for our tiny apartment in 642 00:24:51.029 --> 00:24:51.654 Williamsburg. 643 00:24:53.202 --> 00:24:53.322 Well, 644 00:24:53.323 --> 00:24:54.164 you just taught me something. 645 00:24:54.184 --> 00:24:56.771 I didn't know that you could make payment arrangements with some galleries. 646 00:24:58.354 --> 00:24:58.936 It's possible. 647 00:24:59.197 --> 00:24:59.697 Yeah. 648 00:24:59.717 --> 00:25:00.076 Okay. 649 00:25:01.008 --> 00:25:01.468 What about you, 650 00:25:01.549 --> 00:25:01.729 Jen, 651 00:25:01.730 --> 00:25:02.629 the first painting, 652 00:25:02.670 --> 00:25:05.051 the first work of art that you were able to afford and love? 653 00:25:05.313 --> 00:25:05.570 You know, 654 00:25:05.613 --> 00:25:09.477 what's funny is I still have this work hanging next to my bed in my bedroom, 655 00:25:09.555 --> 00:25:12.039 and I'm not able to remember the artist's name right now, 656 00:25:12.258 --> 00:25:13.422 so that is terrible. 657 00:25:13.883 --> 00:25:14.602 But it was, 658 00:25:14.742 --> 00:25:15.461 so like in the 659 00:25:16.024 --> 00:25:19.805 90s, I bought a piece at a small gallery in LA called Miller-Girazzo. 660 00:25:20.586 --> 00:25:20.867 And 661 00:25:21.446 --> 00:25:23.758 I remember that they were these little drawings, 662 00:25:23.867 --> 00:25:24.867 and they were priced at, 663 00:25:25.008 --> 00:25:25.196 say, 664 00:25:25.274 --> 00:25:29.149 I think they were priced at like $200 unframed. 665 00:25:29.540 --> 00:25:30.861 and $300 framed. 666 00:25:31.262 --> 00:25:33.643 And some of them were unframed and some are framed. 667 00:25:33.662 --> 00:25:36.447 And what I wanted is I wanted one of the framed ones, 668 00:25:36.467 --> 00:25:38.131 but I couldn't afford to have it framed. 669 00:25:38.686 --> 00:25:39.287 And so I was like, 670 00:25:39.311 --> 00:25:40.170 can I get this one? 671 00:25:40.232 --> 00:25:41.615 But can I have it unframed? 672 00:25:41.975 --> 00:25:43.053 And I was such a novice. 673 00:25:43.092 --> 00:25:44.193 I didn't know that like, 674 00:25:44.194 --> 00:25:48.826 you can't just like pop the thing out of the frame because the frames aren't like from Target. 675 00:25:51.264 --> 00:25:51.561 And so 676 00:25:52.701 --> 00:25:53.467 I was really, 677 00:25:53.608 --> 00:25:55.967 really stuck when they said you can have that work, 678 00:25:56.045 --> 00:25:57.873 but actually you're going to have to take it. 679 00:25:57.892 --> 00:25:58.312 framed. 680 00:25:58.352 --> 00:26:00.034 Like we're not taking this out of the frame. 681 00:26:00.655 --> 00:26:03.036 And so I had to go home and think about it. 682 00:26:03.037 --> 00:26:04.356 For the extra hundred dollars. 683 00:26:04.438 --> 00:26:04.599 Yeah, 684 00:26:04.600 --> 00:26:05.579 the extra hundred dollars. 685 00:26:05.580 --> 00:26:06.661 And I came back and I did it. 686 00:26:07.481 --> 00:26:07.778 Wow. 687 00:26:08.544 --> 00:26:13.028 Given the work that you've done about critiquing the so-called art world, 688 00:26:13.067 --> 00:26:15.044 and has any part of Zero 689 00:26:16.028 --> 00:26:18.778 Art Fair felt like a work of art? 690 00:26:19.841 --> 00:26:20.169 I mean, 691 00:26:20.310 --> 00:26:21.388 I don't think either one of us, 692 00:26:22.091 --> 00:26:22.356 you know, 693 00:26:22.419 --> 00:26:23.278 we've talked about this. 694 00:26:23.310 --> 00:26:26.044 We don't see it as a work of art, 695 00:26:26.106 --> 00:26:26.356 but it... 696 00:26:26.528 --> 00:26:44.776 really takes it's a lot of the same creative and like sort of satisfying problem solving efforts you know and like we both have you know kind of conceptual practices and and i think it just feels like it does feel sometimes like a big collaborative art 697 00:26:44.839 --> 00:26:55.792 project even though i think neither one of us would call it like our artwork yeah i i don't think it helps the fair to you know kind of claim it as a work 698 00:26:56.036 --> 00:27:21.577 you know even a collaborative work and yeah it makes a little more elite and yeah and not just it's about us yeah it doesn't we don't have to center ourselves in this project you know there is there is a hope you know that this project is a model that it's a template that you know other people with the right funding interest in communicating with us could run this fair elsewhere that it's, 699 00:27:22.139 --> 00:27:22.389 you know, 700 00:27:22.390 --> 00:27:24.280 a little more open source than 701 00:27:24.556 --> 00:27:39.879 kind of traditional art project where you know the side effect of a lot of art projects is it generates a lot of value you know for the artist in their career and that's not something we've been you know so interested in kind of pursuing and you 702 00:27:39.880 --> 00:27:54.090 know the affair also had to be functional you know and it's like a lot of people think about art as what makes it unique is that it doesn't necessarily have to serve any particular function you know it's sort of autonomous and you know 703 00:27:54.264 --> 00:27:56.624 by keeping it art adjacent, 704 00:27:56.625 --> 00:27:58.447 it allows us to sort of think differently, 705 00:27:58.685 --> 00:28:01.087 to actually think kind of pragmatically, 706 00:28:01.185 --> 00:28:01.365 like, 707 00:28:01.544 --> 00:28:02.583 how does this work? 708 00:28:02.669 --> 00:28:02.786 No, 709 00:28:03.068 --> 00:28:03.490 it's not, 710 00:28:03.943 --> 00:28:04.208 you don't, 711 00:28:04.490 --> 00:28:05.865 you don't want this to be ambiguous, 712 00:28:05.904 --> 00:28:10.833 we actually need to have like a very clear process and method for making things happen. 713 00:28:10.990 --> 00:28:12.130 So yeah, 714 00:28:12.333 --> 00:28:13.396 I totally agree with Jen, 715 00:28:13.412 --> 00:28:15.349 it uses a lot of art thinking, 716 00:28:15.771 --> 00:28:16.083 you know, 717 00:28:16.271 --> 00:28:18.208 it uses a lot of the same skills. 718 00:28:18.693 --> 00:28:18.990 And it, 719 00:28:19.036 --> 00:28:19.271 you know, 720 00:28:19.646 --> 00:28:22.036 pushes our ideas into a different sort of like, 721 00:28:22.280 --> 00:28:48.361 part of the art world and it really engages you know production and distribution of art you know at conceptual levels yeah no not not like an artwork by by jen and bill you know so let's say somebody in because there's amazing artists working all over the country in big and small towns if somebody wanted to replicate this model in their community what would be your first words of advice to them well 722 00:28:49.126 --> 00:28:50.111 we have this question 723 00:28:50.392 --> 00:29:06.493 that we ask ourselves that you know comes from manon sloan but it's you know who pays for free and the sort of first piece of advice would probably have to do with how they're going to pay themselves how they're going to potentially 724 00:29:06.571 --> 00:29:18.540 pay the artist you know an honorarium if there's a an exhibition component and you're anticipating artists get an honorarium regardless if to have that funded. 725 00:29:19.292 --> 00:29:20.673 the second for the second fair. 726 00:29:20.894 --> 00:29:26.240 So it sounds like that's one of your first lessons to somebody else who wants to replicate it is that there is startup cost. 727 00:29:26.779 --> 00:29:27.201 Yeah. 728 00:29:27.498 --> 00:29:27.779 I mean, 729 00:29:27.818 --> 00:29:28.662 and you know, 730 00:29:28.779 --> 00:29:30.060 the venue and really, 731 00:29:30.380 --> 00:29:32.966 it's quite a lot of it's quite a lot of time, 732 00:29:33.123 --> 00:29:34.310 like it's quite a lot of admin. 733 00:29:35.748 --> 00:29:36.201 But you know, 734 00:29:36.466 --> 00:29:39.498 I think what we hope to do is that by creating, 735 00:29:39.779 --> 00:29:39.998 you know, 736 00:29:40.013 --> 00:29:41.029 this kind of template, 737 00:29:41.591 --> 00:29:45.123 that if we're able to really take what we've done internally, 738 00:29:45.716 --> 00:29:45.951 you know, 739 00:29:46.013 --> 00:29:47.794 put together almost a kind handbook. 740 00:29:48.145 --> 00:29:49.233 or how you could do this. 741 00:29:49.742 --> 00:29:54.425 If another community or another institution sees the benefit of being able to, 742 00:29:55.046 --> 00:29:55.289 you know, 743 00:29:55.386 --> 00:29:59.429 tap a little bit of this kind of vast inventory of work sitting, 744 00:29:59.656 --> 00:29:59.890 you know, 745 00:29:59.992 --> 00:30:05.335 nationally in storage spaces and studios under people's living rooms or, 746 00:30:06.296 --> 00:30:06.562 you know, 747 00:30:06.656 --> 00:30:08.281 in barns all over the country, 748 00:30:09.328 --> 00:30:09.578 you know, 749 00:30:10.124 --> 00:30:12.187 that that would be a really a public good, 750 00:30:12.609 --> 00:30:12.937 you know, 751 00:30:13.140 --> 00:30:14.421 and that maybe it is worth, 752 00:30:14.843 --> 00:30:15.093 you know, 753 00:30:15.124 --> 00:30:16.921 putting a few thousand dollars or. 754 00:30:17.430 --> 00:30:17.730 you know, 755 00:30:17.870 --> 00:30:20.811 up to $50,000 together to get, 756 00:30:20.991 --> 00:30:21.651 in our case, 757 00:30:21.690 --> 00:30:21.952 you know, 758 00:30:22.011 --> 00:30:27.292 up to like half a million dollars of retail artwork out into homes, 759 00:30:27.893 --> 00:30:28.190 you know, 760 00:30:28.229 --> 00:30:31.034 and I think that is a really interesting value proposition, 761 00:30:31.073 --> 00:30:33.136 whether or not those retail prices are real, 762 00:30:34.261 --> 00:30:37.058 work has this other set of values, 763 00:30:37.167 --> 00:30:37.761 aesthetic, 764 00:30:38.073 --> 00:30:38.854 conceptual, 765 00:30:39.479 --> 00:30:40.042 spiritual, 766 00:30:40.229 --> 00:30:40.511 you know, 767 00:30:40.512 --> 00:30:40.729 I mean, 768 00:30:40.839 --> 00:30:40.995 it, 769 00:30:41.495 --> 00:30:41.729 you know, 770 00:30:42.058 --> 00:30:43.089 your question about, 771 00:30:43.417 --> 00:30:43.698 you know, 772 00:30:43.854 --> 00:30:46.011 the first artwork that we're able to sort of 773 00:30:46.398 --> 00:30:47.579 buy or live with, 774 00:30:47.960 --> 00:30:48.180 you know, 775 00:30:48.181 --> 00:30:50.943 that's something we want other people to be able to experience, 776 00:30:51.103 --> 00:30:51.403 you know, 777 00:30:51.665 --> 00:30:57.790 that kind of interesting thing that happens when you have a unique object in your home over a long period of time that, 778 00:30:58.126 --> 00:30:58.392 you know, 779 00:30:58.446 --> 00:30:59.173 in some cases, 780 00:30:59.228 --> 00:31:05.329 maybe a child grows up with and sees that art is something that's in their home that's accessible to them. 781 00:31:05.860 --> 00:31:08.032 That was a kind of motivating thing, 782 00:31:08.126 --> 00:31:08.454 I think. 783 00:31:09.220 --> 00:31:09.704 I heard from, 784 00:31:09.876 --> 00:31:10.142 you know, 785 00:31:10.157 --> 00:31:16.032 another artist not too long ago about even a reason to make physical objects after having a kind of 786 00:31:16.534 --> 00:31:16.774 you know, 787 00:31:16.854 --> 00:31:19.898 digital or sort of less material practice, 788 00:31:20.158 --> 00:31:22.220 that their work could live in a home, 789 00:31:22.439 --> 00:31:22.681 you know, 790 00:31:22.740 --> 00:31:26.747 and be experienced outside of kind of institutional sort of settings. 791 00:31:27.583 --> 00:31:27.747 Yeah. 792 00:31:27.763 --> 00:31:28.490 And I would add, 793 00:31:28.786 --> 00:31:29.005 you know, 794 00:31:29.130 --> 00:31:30.544 one of the core, 795 00:31:31.169 --> 00:31:31.388 you know, 796 00:31:31.466 --> 00:31:32.708 tenets of 797 00:31:33.146 --> 00:31:36.036 Zero Art Fair is that price doesn't equal value, 798 00:31:36.708 --> 00:31:36.974 you know, 799 00:31:37.068 --> 00:31:42.162 so decoupling those two ideas and getting people, 800 00:31:42.521 --> 00:31:46.240 and even if the people get the work for free and they have it in their home and 801 00:31:46.366 --> 00:31:50.749 And I think that they can really feel viscerally, 802 00:31:51.210 --> 00:31:51.772 emotionally, 803 00:31:51.913 --> 00:31:52.530 spiritually, 804 00:31:52.573 --> 00:31:54.296 the value of having that work. 805 00:31:55.757 --> 00:31:58.218 And it has nothing to do with how much they paid for it. 806 00:31:58.718 --> 00:32:00.483 Are you already planning fair number three? 807 00:32:01.663 --> 00:32:02.663 We're figuring it out. 808 00:32:04.522 --> 00:32:06.085 We've been taking one year at a time. 809 00:32:06.428 --> 00:32:06.944 Good for you. 810 00:32:07.007 --> 00:32:07.304 But yeah, 811 00:32:07.444 --> 00:32:08.132 we're figuring it out. 812 00:32:08.147 --> 00:32:08.913 I don't think we're done, 813 00:32:08.928 --> 00:32:09.085 though. 814 00:32:09.882 --> 00:32:13.808 If you'd like to learn more about Jen and Bill and read a longer version of this interview, 815 00:32:13.906 --> 00:32:17.972 just head to uncsa.edu slash art restart. 816 00:32:19.292 --> 00:32:19.433 Hey, 817 00:32:19.675 --> 00:32:20.292 do me a favor. 818 00:32:20.410 --> 00:32:22.831 Would you please do all those things that help us out? 819 00:32:22.894 --> 00:32:23.956 Subscribe or follow, 820 00:32:24.300 --> 00:32:25.394 rate and review us, 821 00:32:25.620 --> 00:32:26.503 all of that good stuff. 822 00:32:26.613 --> 00:32:27.300 We'd love that. 823 00:32:28.113 --> 00:32:32.847 And if you know and love an artist shaking up the status quo that you'd love us to profile, 824 00:32:32.848 --> 00:32:33.347 let me know. 825 00:32:33.863 --> 00:32:36.784 Or if there's a subject you'd like us to do a deep dive on, 826 00:32:36.847 --> 00:32:37.066 like 827 00:32:37.598 --> 00:32:38.319 Why does U.S. 828 00:32:38.419 --> 00:32:42.545 law not have the so-called moral rights that protect artists in France, 829 00:32:42.584 --> 00:32:43.205 for instance? 830 00:32:43.885 --> 00:32:47.490 You can find me on Instagram at Pierre-Carlo Talenti. 831 00:32:48.631 --> 00:32:51.693 Our theme music is by Shanghai Restoration Project. 832 00:32:52.256 --> 00:32:53.373 I'm Pierre-Carlo Talenti, 833 00:32:54.029 --> 00:32:56.639 and on behalf of the Kenan Institute for the Arts, 834 00:32:57.310 --> 00:32:58.076 thank you for listening.