WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.108 --> 00:00:04.011 We are a podcast for product marketers and B2B SaaS who feel misunderstood of what they do. 2 00:00:04.131 --> 00:00:09.875 From someone who truly gets what you do and help you feel less like a misfit to be an animal in the world. 3 00:00:20.763 --> 00:00:21.104 Gab, 4 00:00:22.304 --> 00:00:25.187 let us know who's joining us today. 5 00:00:26.367 --> 00:00:26.588 Yes, 6 00:00:26.628 --> 00:00:26.748 so... 7 00:00:27.288 --> 00:00:28.549 Very interesting guest, 8 00:00:28.749 --> 00:00:29.049 I think, 9 00:00:29.089 --> 00:00:29.890 for PMMs. 10 00:00:30.110 --> 00:00:30.390 Today, 11 00:00:30.490 --> 00:00:32.051 we have Rand Paul Gibson. 12 00:00:32.891 --> 00:00:34.852 This guy is the founder of ContentLift. 13 00:00:35.252 --> 00:00:38.354 And if you think customer investigation and customer interviews, 14 00:00:38.394 --> 00:00:40.575 this is the person that should come to mind. 15 00:00:41.176 --> 00:00:43.257 He has a background as a TV reporter, 16 00:00:43.797 --> 00:00:44.578 as a consultant, 17 00:00:44.638 --> 00:00:45.638 as a marketing manager. 18 00:00:46.018 --> 00:00:46.399 And today, 19 00:00:46.459 --> 00:00:50.941 he's helping everyone to run B2B market and buyers investigation. 20 00:00:51.481 --> 00:00:51.822 Rand, 21 00:00:52.002 --> 00:00:53.042 we're very excited to have you. 22 00:00:55.083 --> 00:00:56.024 I'm excited to be here. 23 00:00:56.384 --> 00:00:57.785 impressive. 24 00:00:57.965 --> 00:00:58.305 Thank you. 25 00:00:58.385 --> 00:01:02.687 It's all about the fact that we're just a couple of weird guys and we don't have a rule book. 26 00:01:02.707 --> 00:01:03.448 So that's probably why. 27 00:01:03.788 --> 00:01:03.988 Ryan, 28 00:01:03.989 --> 00:01:05.869 we have a very important one to ask you. 29 00:01:06.069 --> 00:01:07.990 Are product marketers actually marketers? 30 00:01:08.270 --> 00:01:09.291 Why or why not? 31 00:01:10.091 --> 00:01:13.073 Like anyone who says no, 32 00:01:13.633 --> 00:01:17.816 they have no idea of the history of marketing that's existed for like millennia. 33 00:01:18.396 --> 00:01:19.757 I understand why they would say no. 34 00:01:20.957 --> 00:01:25.019 But if you look at the historical context of how marketing has existed, 35 00:01:25.600 --> 00:01:25.960 then yes. 36 00:01:26.324 --> 00:01:27.124 You are a marketer. 37 00:01:28.945 --> 00:01:30.586 You definitely have a journalist background. 38 00:01:30.706 --> 00:01:30.826 Yeah. 39 00:01:30.846 --> 00:01:34.027 Has anyone talked about like where the term came from? 40 00:01:35.108 --> 00:01:35.248 Well, 41 00:01:35.268 --> 00:01:36.448 the closest person was Harvey. 42 00:01:36.668 --> 00:01:38.069 But Harvey was talking about the brand man. 43 00:01:38.429 --> 00:01:39.189 Now it's on season two. 44 00:01:39.349 --> 00:01:41.950 But he didn't talk about the specific term itself. 45 00:01:43.311 --> 00:01:45.192 There's no real lineage there. 46 00:01:45.512 --> 00:01:46.752 If you try to go back, 47 00:01:47.753 --> 00:01:49.433 it's like where terms come from. 48 00:01:49.473 --> 00:01:52.655 Because you could say like demand generation came up around the 49 00:01:53.135 --> 00:01:55.516 50s in some type of academic studies. 50 00:01:55.860 --> 00:01:56.180 Whatever. 51 00:01:57.241 --> 00:02:01.883 The person they can contribute to is Neil McElroy from Procter & Gamble around the 52 00:02:02.363 --> 00:02:02.483 30s. 53 00:02:05.284 --> 00:02:06.925 And he worked in consumer markets. 54 00:02:07.925 --> 00:02:08.966 So if you think about it, 55 00:02:09.026 --> 00:02:16.029 it makes sense because if I'm a B2C company and I have 20 product lines, 56 00:02:18.170 --> 00:02:19.330 the idea of, 57 00:02:19.490 --> 00:02:19.690 okay, 58 00:02:19.710 --> 00:02:23.032 we should probably understand this product. 59 00:02:23.432 --> 00:02:27.773 More specifically and how it fits in the market rather than just generalist take to stuff. 60 00:02:27.873 --> 00:02:29.134 There's Peter Drucker 50s 61 00:02:29.574 --> 00:02:30.514 60s Phil Kotler 62 00:02:31.554 --> 00:02:40.457 McKenna Reese McKenna Jeffrey Moore crossing the chasm There was a natural even Ogilvy has stuff where he talked about like channels of products versus a general marketing 63 00:02:40.837 --> 00:02:46.659 So so at least like a hundred years people have been talking about the sense of how product marketing fits into marketing 64 00:02:47.399 --> 00:02:47.819 So yeah, 65 00:02:48.079 --> 00:02:50.780 like I have a I tend to take a longer view with these things 66 00:02:51.996 --> 00:02:54.677 And then the whole thesis is like why product marketing exists. 67 00:02:54.697 --> 00:02:55.598 First time I met Gab, 68 00:02:55.618 --> 00:02:55.898 I'm like, 69 00:02:55.899 --> 00:02:56.899 I don't understand the term. 70 00:02:56.900 --> 00:02:57.839 But when I went to the B2B, 71 00:02:57.840 --> 00:02:59.360 I was losing my mind. 72 00:02:59.420 --> 00:02:59.640 People, 73 00:02:59.920 --> 00:03:00.781 product marketing, 74 00:03:01.301 --> 00:03:03.943 that's like calling it like product coding. 75 00:03:05.744 --> 00:03:07.064 Yeah, 76 00:03:07.104 --> 00:03:08.345 we do the product coding. 77 00:03:08.865 --> 00:03:09.906 What else are you coding? 78 00:03:10.126 --> 00:03:10.626 Come on, 79 00:03:10.706 --> 00:03:10.986 man. 80 00:03:11.667 --> 00:03:12.207 So it's just, 81 00:03:12.247 --> 00:03:12.467 yeah, 82 00:03:12.468 --> 00:03:13.968 I have this whole thing. 83 00:03:14.488 --> 00:03:20.171 But I understand where it comes from because I've experienced the things that you talk about on the podcast as a PMM. 84 00:03:20.592 --> 00:03:20.712 So, 85 00:03:20.792 --> 00:03:20.912 yeah. 86 00:03:21.884 --> 00:03:22.444 So Ryan, 87 00:03:23.104 --> 00:03:24.905 coming from a journalist's background, 88 00:03:25.125 --> 00:03:27.866 how did you stumble into B2B marketing land? 89 00:03:27.906 --> 00:03:29.346 Okay. 90 00:03:29.366 --> 00:03:32.387 Hopefully not the 91 00:03:32.727 --> 00:03:34.868 30s, right? 92 00:03:35.008 --> 00:03:36.568 Back in the Bronze Age. 93 00:03:37.969 --> 00:03:40.309 So this is my dad behind me on the wall. 94 00:03:40.730 --> 00:03:41.970 For people who can't see this, 95 00:03:41.971 --> 00:03:42.710 this is a podcast, 96 00:03:42.750 --> 00:03:43.370 but who knows, 97 00:03:43.410 --> 00:03:45.331 maybe it'll be a clip somewhere. 98 00:03:45.771 --> 00:03:47.452 So I started working for my dad when I was 99 00:03:47.992 --> 00:03:48.912 12 years old. 100 00:03:50.612 --> 00:03:55.695 We ran a franchise company up here in the great white north where Gab and I live in Canada. 101 00:03:55.815 --> 00:03:56.535 It's called Treats. 102 00:03:57.496 --> 00:03:59.517 We had about 120 stores across the country. 103 00:04:00.417 --> 00:04:02.799 Started working the stores really young. 104 00:04:03.119 --> 00:04:03.999 By the time I was 17, 105 00:04:04.019 --> 00:04:05.300 I could run a store with my eyes closed. 106 00:04:06.160 --> 00:04:07.601 And then went and took my commerce degree. 107 00:04:08.061 --> 00:04:08.902 I'm getting to your questions, 108 00:04:08.962 --> 00:04:09.482 Actors. 109 00:04:10.203 --> 00:04:10.963 It's coming up. 110 00:04:13.184 --> 00:04:18.867 And then did a bunch of stuff in hospitality management because my commerce degree was actually in hospitality. 111 00:04:20.328 --> 00:04:25.671 is actually marketing is one of the core focuses of that commerce degree. 112 00:04:26.832 --> 00:04:30.114 I went to a bunch of stuff in hospitality world. 113 00:04:30.134 --> 00:04:31.354 And then my dad says, 114 00:04:31.355 --> 00:04:31.695 you know what? 115 00:04:31.715 --> 00:04:34.576 My VP of ops and marketing is retiring. 116 00:04:34.916 --> 00:04:35.557 You want the gig? 117 00:04:36.617 --> 00:04:37.178 It's 26. 118 00:04:37.578 --> 00:04:38.018 I was like, 119 00:04:38.338 --> 00:04:38.538 okay. 120 00:04:39.599 --> 00:04:40.780 I had no idea what I was doing. 121 00:04:41.320 --> 00:04:43.001 But I was eager and I was hungry. 122 00:04:43.581 --> 00:04:43.701 So 123 00:04:44.382 --> 00:04:46.223 I went in and that was the start. 124 00:04:46.283 --> 00:04:48.304 Because for a franchise system, 125 00:04:49.112 --> 00:04:56.301 The whole point of it is you have to create a marketplace so a turnkey business exists that someone buys into. 126 00:04:56.882 --> 00:05:01.948 I don't have to start from scratch and understand the marketplace and build the infrastructure. 127 00:05:02.580 --> 00:05:05.362 I drop down to $500,000 in my McDonald's franchise, 128 00:05:05.482 --> 00:05:07.603 and I get instant revenue the day the door is open. 129 00:05:07.643 --> 00:05:09.184 It's the whole point of the thing. 130 00:05:10.165 --> 00:05:13.406 My job was to create the marketplace that consumers buy into. 131 00:05:14.127 --> 00:05:15.788 So I had to do all the research myself. 132 00:05:16.548 --> 00:05:17.849 I did observational work. 133 00:05:18.429 --> 00:05:24.333 So one time I spent two hours timing how long people took to put cream in coffee with a stopwatch, 134 00:05:24.733 --> 00:05:27.435 because I wanted to see how quickly people would do that. 135 00:05:28.435 --> 00:05:29.296 I did all of this. 136 00:05:29.684 --> 00:05:30.724 person on the street interviews, 137 00:05:30.825 --> 00:05:32.485 I'd go into the stores of competitors, 138 00:05:32.525 --> 00:05:35.206 I start talking to them and asking why they shop at Tim Hortons. 139 00:05:35.587 --> 00:05:37.107 Why do you buy here not there? 140 00:05:37.147 --> 00:05:38.048 Have you ever bought there? 141 00:05:38.068 --> 00:05:39.788 And people thought I was out of my goddamn mind. 142 00:05:40.209 --> 00:05:40.329 But 143 00:05:40.709 --> 00:05:43.230 I wanted to understand how people made decisions. 144 00:05:43.270 --> 00:05:45.531 Because if you don't understand how people make decisions, 145 00:05:45.891 --> 00:05:47.552 how in the world are you going to market to them? 146 00:05:48.672 --> 00:05:49.493 I did all that. 147 00:05:49.613 --> 00:05:50.353 And I should say, 148 00:05:50.833 --> 00:05:54.635 the reason I have a certain view of this is that I had the operations and marketing hat. 149 00:05:55.335 --> 00:05:56.696 And then in the B2C world, 150 00:05:57.312 --> 00:06:12.982 if we're going to use the four p's as like the marker most of that exists with marketing and operations and it's like a synergy in b2b it's much different we can talk about it later if you want where the four p's are like spread across an org and that's where a lot of the breakdown happens so 151 00:06:13.182 --> 00:06:22.948 i own the whole thing then i went and i took i went and i changed my careers i went to broadcasting and i became a tv and radio reporter for three years it's great it's a good gig 152 00:06:23.520 --> 00:06:27.342 So I learned really how to navigate like the environment the four of us are in right now. 153 00:06:27.922 --> 00:06:29.923 How do you ask questions and get to the heart of things? 154 00:06:31.003 --> 00:06:32.904 And then I went back to B2B because I was like, 155 00:06:32.924 --> 00:06:33.664 this is not my thing. 156 00:06:33.665 --> 00:06:34.224 I'm going to go back. 157 00:06:35.225 --> 00:06:36.785 And the very first time 158 00:06:37.726 --> 00:06:39.026 I wanted to talk to a customer, 159 00:06:39.126 --> 00:06:40.847 you should have seen the looks I got. 160 00:06:42.168 --> 00:06:43.868 I've been doing it my whole career. 161 00:06:44.749 --> 00:06:45.809 And now all of a sudden, 162 00:06:46.589 --> 00:06:46.949 it's like, 163 00:06:47.009 --> 00:06:47.130 well, 164 00:06:47.170 --> 00:06:48.030 sales does that. 165 00:06:48.830 --> 00:06:49.510 Product does that. 166 00:06:49.530 --> 00:06:51.171 What do you mean you want to talk to customers? 167 00:06:51.172 --> 00:06:51.291 No, 168 00:06:51.391 --> 00:06:53.132 just go write me a landing page. 169 00:06:54.216 --> 00:06:56.718 And I'm looking at them like they're out of their goddamn minds. 170 00:06:56.858 --> 00:06:58.099 What is going on? 171 00:06:58.739 --> 00:07:00.380 And that was my first experience, 172 00:07:00.761 --> 00:07:02.402 which I think is the essence of your show, 173 00:07:04.563 --> 00:07:04.803 right? 174 00:07:04.843 --> 00:07:05.304 Nailed it. 175 00:07:06.184 --> 00:07:06.504 And 176 00:07:07.285 --> 00:07:08.266 I know the battle. 177 00:07:08.466 --> 00:07:11.408 And there's all sorts of ways that I've hacked my way around that. 178 00:07:11.888 --> 00:07:15.471 Because I am paramount in saying that if B2B, 179 00:07:15.651 --> 00:07:18.092 it's a team sport and no one owns the customer. 180 00:07:18.493 --> 00:07:19.053 We all do. 181 00:07:20.134 --> 00:07:23.256 So we all have to understand how it fits in the mix. 182 00:07:23.756 --> 00:07:24.236 So yeah, 183 00:07:24.296 --> 00:07:26.137 the reporter thing was great. 184 00:07:26.637 --> 00:07:27.638 You can Google my name, 185 00:07:27.758 --> 00:07:28.598 Ryan Paul Gibson, 186 00:07:28.758 --> 00:07:29.659 CBC News, 187 00:07:30.059 --> 00:07:33.901 and you'll find some TV pieces that are above average. 188 00:07:35.582 --> 00:07:36.062 Ooh, 189 00:07:36.142 --> 00:07:37.583 hit us with the social proof. 190 00:07:39.684 --> 00:07:40.784 You hit on a vein. 191 00:07:41.144 --> 00:07:47.988 What you are saying here is that this is like a huge challenge for product marketers. 192 00:07:48.028 --> 00:07:48.388 It's that... 193 00:07:48.884 --> 00:07:49.885 We're brought in house, 194 00:07:49.925 --> 00:07:51.866 we are expected to deliver collateral, 195 00:07:51.986 --> 00:07:53.287 and we ask the question of, 196 00:07:53.427 --> 00:07:56.428 I want to talk to customers to understand their frame of mind. 197 00:07:56.749 --> 00:07:57.489 So I'm curious, 198 00:07:57.509 --> 00:07:57.629 like, 199 00:07:57.649 --> 00:07:59.230 when you are working with clients, 200 00:07:59.570 --> 00:08:02.112 for a lot of executive leaders and other departments, 201 00:08:02.332 --> 00:08:02.712 they're like, 202 00:08:03.192 --> 00:08:04.413 just go build a damn thing. 203 00:08:04.493 --> 00:08:05.954 Why do you need to talk to customers? 204 00:08:06.014 --> 00:08:06.274 Like, 205 00:08:07.895 --> 00:08:09.896 so I'm curious to get more of your perspective on that. 206 00:08:11.037 --> 00:08:12.638 How in the world do you get access? 207 00:08:12.639 --> 00:08:13.258 There's a few ways. 208 00:08:13.298 --> 00:08:16.400 The ways I've done it is do it in big forgiveness. 209 00:08:17.352 --> 00:08:32.276 pick up i've like literally picked up the phone and called customers without permission had sales just start reeling at me and i didn't care because it's just you except to do my jobs i'm gonna go do it and that's not for the meek you gotta be like really you 210 00:08:32.277 --> 00:08:46.860 gotta have some spice in you and i was always okay with that the other way is you gotta do you have now have to then educate the executives on why marketing exists and what a horrible position to be in 211 00:08:48.856 --> 00:08:52.738 It's like that's what they don't they just don't get it if you talk to a b2b 212 00:08:53.219 --> 00:08:57.381 If you talk to a sales team or an executive that's understand why you need the voice of the customer in the room 213 00:08:58.221 --> 00:09:03.665 That is a tough battle to fight and the odds of you winning are low what you can show them 214 00:09:06.526 --> 00:09:08.107 It comes down to unit economics, 215 00:09:08.127 --> 00:09:08.307 right? 216 00:09:08.308 --> 00:09:13.610 You have a budget you got to spend it how I've always phrased it is 217 00:09:15.651 --> 00:09:16.492 You want to? 218 00:09:17.468 --> 00:09:21.131 Increase the number of qualified conversations with the sales team by 20% 219 00:09:22.612 --> 00:09:24.174 over the next two years. 220 00:09:24.175 --> 00:09:25.735 Because that's how they talk in those terms, 221 00:09:25.755 --> 00:09:25.875 right? 222 00:09:25.895 --> 00:09:27.577 When we really get up to the high level. 223 00:09:27.897 --> 00:09:28.057 Great. 224 00:09:31.660 --> 00:09:34.923 I want to understand what's happening before they even talk to sales. 225 00:09:36.124 --> 00:09:39.807 Because that's the mindset I have to spend money on to influence. 226 00:09:41.068 --> 00:09:42.469 Spend money is the key one here. 227 00:09:43.730 --> 00:09:45.672 And I want to de-risk the chances. 228 00:09:46.204 --> 00:09:49.549 of our marketing budget getting lit on fire and doing nothing. 229 00:09:51.813 --> 00:09:53.235 So is that perfect? 230 00:09:53.255 --> 00:09:53.375 No. 231 00:09:53.936 --> 00:09:54.918 But that's the start. 232 00:09:56.039 --> 00:09:57.341 Because executives, 233 00:09:57.482 --> 00:09:58.664 if they understand anything, 234 00:09:59.244 --> 00:10:01.348 it is resource allocation. 235 00:10:03.136 --> 00:10:04.257 So you need to understand, 236 00:10:04.377 --> 00:10:06.218 you need to talk in their language. 237 00:10:07.319 --> 00:10:12.282 And that's hard for someone who maybe came up the content marketing track, 238 00:10:12.322 --> 00:10:13.503 who is now a PMM, 239 00:10:14.043 --> 00:10:16.145 who's never understood financial statements, 240 00:10:16.725 --> 00:10:18.086 how cash flows determined, 241 00:10:18.146 --> 00:10:19.447 how to calculate margins, 242 00:10:19.507 --> 00:10:21.649 how to compete in a market. 243 00:10:22.389 --> 00:10:22.589 Like, 244 00:10:23.089 --> 00:10:23.410 whoa, 245 00:10:23.550 --> 00:10:23.930 dude, 246 00:10:24.170 --> 00:10:25.071 you're putting a lot on them. 247 00:10:25.111 --> 00:10:26.952 That's where I always start with people is, 248 00:10:27.172 --> 00:10:30.034 you have to make the business case of why you want to do it in the first place. 249 00:10:30.935 --> 00:10:32.716 And that's hard for marketers who've never done that. 250 00:10:33.876 --> 00:10:37.218 take the phone and wait for sales to basically be pissed off at you. 251 00:10:39.300 --> 00:10:41.121 Like our mutual friend, 252 00:10:41.141 --> 00:10:42.462 Zach Messler said something. 253 00:10:42.562 --> 00:10:42.822 Oh, 254 00:10:42.823 --> 00:10:45.004 I listened to Zach. 255 00:10:45.044 --> 00:10:46.144 He had some good thoughts. 256 00:10:46.145 --> 00:10:46.825 Keep going with your point. 257 00:10:47.205 --> 00:10:51.408 But he said basically that to be good in product marketing requires you to have guts. 258 00:10:51.788 --> 00:10:52.088 Yeah. 259 00:10:52.089 --> 00:10:53.129 And that's exactly it. 260 00:10:53.349 --> 00:10:55.371 Sales won't come at you to save your job, 261 00:10:55.471 --> 00:10:55.671 right? 262 00:10:55.711 --> 00:10:56.531 They have a job to do. 263 00:10:56.692 --> 00:10:58.253 If you are missing insights, 264 00:10:58.833 --> 00:10:59.313 call them. 265 00:10:59.514 --> 00:11:01.155 But this is bringing me to another question. 266 00:11:01.255 --> 00:11:03.116 I know we had none of the back all but 267 00:11:03.216 --> 00:11:05.037 You almost roasted me online on this, 268 00:11:05.097 --> 00:11:07.298 but a lot of people, 269 00:11:07.358 --> 00:11:08.278 especially early stage, 270 00:11:08.898 --> 00:11:11.299 when we want to get insight, 271 00:11:11.319 --> 00:11:13.500 the junk food advice is just talk to customers. 272 00:11:14.781 --> 00:11:19.242 Why would you say that this is considered bad advice on a surface level? 273 00:11:22.184 --> 00:11:26.986 Conversations with customers falls within the bucket of market research, 274 00:11:27.586 --> 00:11:28.146 historically, 275 00:11:28.166 --> 00:11:28.706 over the last... 276 00:11:28.966 --> 00:11:30.127 Let's go back to 1930, 277 00:11:30.167 --> 00:11:31.748 because I know that's Eric's favorite time. 278 00:11:33.500 --> 00:11:34.281 Market research, 279 00:11:34.741 --> 00:11:36.022 qualitative research, 280 00:11:36.182 --> 00:11:37.743 primary qualitative research, 281 00:11:38.003 --> 00:11:39.423 and the specific term in the, 282 00:11:39.864 --> 00:11:41.945 and if we're looking at sociological studies, 283 00:11:42.405 --> 00:11:43.866 it's in-depth interviews, 284 00:11:44.306 --> 00:11:45.347 qualitative research. 285 00:11:47.708 --> 00:11:51.470 And the whole point is you have a thesis or hypothesis, 286 00:11:51.891 --> 00:11:53.091 an objective you want to learn, 287 00:11:53.772 --> 00:12:00.796 and you structure the conversations in a way that it's driving every single thing they talk about towards 288 00:12:01.564 --> 00:12:05.987 understanding your objective and getting the data and insights you need to meet the objective. 289 00:12:06.868 --> 00:12:09.250 What happens is people get on a call, 290 00:12:10.150 --> 00:12:10.671 which is great. 291 00:12:10.751 --> 00:12:11.871 And they're like, 292 00:12:11.872 --> 00:12:12.692 do you like our thing? 293 00:12:13.172 --> 00:12:13.573 And like, 294 00:12:13.853 --> 00:12:14.794 how are you using it? 295 00:12:14.854 --> 00:12:15.774 And is it good? 296 00:12:15.814 --> 00:12:17.455 And it's all subjective opinions. 297 00:12:17.515 --> 00:12:18.856 It's all like outputs. 298 00:12:18.977 --> 00:12:21.879 It's all stuff that is helpful, 299 00:12:22.559 --> 00:12:26.022 but it's not help you make decisions about how to do marketing. 300 00:12:26.062 --> 00:12:29.364 That's the distinction. 301 00:12:29.608 --> 00:12:32.670 It becomes like a really basic case study conversation. 302 00:12:33.210 --> 00:12:33.850 And that's fine. 303 00:12:33.851 --> 00:12:34.851 You need that stuff. 304 00:12:35.071 --> 00:12:36.532 Sales enablement conversations. 305 00:12:37.112 --> 00:12:41.635 But that's not your job is a marketer. 306 00:12:42.075 --> 00:12:43.696 And you have to influence a market. 307 00:12:44.616 --> 00:12:45.477 Like it's in the name, 308 00:12:45.537 --> 00:12:45.857 people. 309 00:12:46.637 --> 00:12:46.817 Like, 310 00:12:46.958 --> 00:12:47.518 come on. 311 00:12:47.898 --> 00:12:51.720 So you have to go out and talk to the 90. 312 00:12:51.920 --> 00:12:55.722 If you buy into the Einenberg, 313 00:12:56.583 --> 00:12:57.143 how do you say it? 314 00:12:57.843 --> 00:12:58.604 The institute there. 315 00:12:58.940 --> 00:13:17.213 have a 95 95 rule do you guys know how to say it i haven't heard of it but what podcast am i on here we're not marketers good one oh heisenberg yeah um greg they 316 00:13:17.214 --> 00:13:19.455 have the 95 five rule right 317 00:13:19.935 --> 00:13:26.300 95 of your markets not in market at any given time that doesn't mean they don't know you that means 318 00:13:27.164 --> 00:13:29.585 They have a concept of what the solutions are in the market, 319 00:13:29.745 --> 00:13:30.486 but at this point, 320 00:13:30.487 --> 00:13:33.207 the business conditions do not exist for them to make an investment. 321 00:13:34.388 --> 00:13:34.708 Why? 322 00:13:37.189 --> 00:13:39.491 That's the majority of your market at any given time. 323 00:13:40.511 --> 00:13:41.952 And before that data came out 324 00:13:43.053 --> 00:13:43.573 10 years ago, 325 00:13:44.133 --> 00:13:44.834 20 years ago now, 326 00:13:44.894 --> 00:13:45.214 I think, 327 00:13:46.214 --> 00:13:47.955 if you worked in B2B for some time, 328 00:13:48.055 --> 00:13:49.336 you instinctively knew that. 329 00:13:49.337 --> 00:13:51.477 You intuitively knew that even without the data. 330 00:13:51.937 --> 00:13:53.898 When I was a buyer back at a franchise company, 331 00:13:54.018 --> 00:13:56.840 I once sat on a company for three years before I bought from them. 332 00:13:57.140 --> 00:13:58.341 I knew the day I met them, 333 00:13:58.361 --> 00:13:59.141 I wanted to buy from them, 334 00:13:59.142 --> 00:14:00.401 but I had to wait three years. 335 00:14:01.922 --> 00:14:03.523 Where's that going to show up in your dashboard? 336 00:14:03.743 --> 00:14:07.184 So if you look back over the course of that's what we've had to do, 337 00:14:07.364 --> 00:14:11.506 we've had to understand how people get start somewhere and then get to sales. 338 00:14:12.346 --> 00:14:13.807 And if you can't do that, 339 00:14:14.627 --> 00:14:18.569 then you can't actually build a marketing program that's going to influence these people further up the field. 340 00:14:19.069 --> 00:14:21.690 That's stuff I want to talk about in a customer interview, 341 00:14:23.251 --> 00:14:25.172 not to like sales enablement stuff, 342 00:14:25.232 --> 00:14:25.832 the stuff that. 343 00:14:26.372 --> 00:14:28.393 Gab has to do in his sales deck job. 344 00:14:28.713 --> 00:14:30.953 One day he'll be director of sales decks. 345 00:14:30.973 --> 00:14:31.453 It'll be good. 346 00:14:31.854 --> 00:14:37.455 But that's the stuff I have to know because that's what marketing is. 347 00:14:38.435 --> 00:14:39.056 Not the sales. 348 00:14:39.076 --> 00:14:41.116 The sales enablement stuff's already happened. 349 00:14:41.356 --> 00:14:43.557 Like they've built their consideration set. 350 00:14:43.757 --> 00:14:44.977 They've probably already picked the winner. 351 00:14:47.538 --> 00:14:49.358 So the sales enablement is just them. 352 00:14:50.199 --> 00:14:50.319 Oh, 353 00:14:50.359 --> 00:14:50.599 yeah. 354 00:14:50.719 --> 00:14:50.979 Okay, 355 00:14:51.079 --> 00:14:51.259 good. 356 00:14:51.260 --> 00:14:52.439 I'm not wrong about anything. 357 00:14:53.039 --> 00:14:54.280 That's not convincing them. 358 00:14:54.420 --> 00:14:55.060 That's just them. 359 00:14:55.580 --> 00:15:01.931 doing a sanity check with the stakeholder and buying group to say see i wasn't wrong see it works 360 00:15:03.047 --> 00:15:07.788 The decision was probably made months ago and you as the marketer have to influence that. 361 00:15:08.249 --> 00:15:13.810 So how in the world are you going to understand that if you talk to them about just what their life was like after they bought the thing? 362 00:15:15.911 --> 00:15:16.711 So customer interviews, 363 00:15:16.731 --> 00:15:16.851 yeah, 364 00:15:16.971 --> 00:15:17.731 don't just talk to them, 365 00:15:18.011 --> 00:15:19.252 have a plan and objectives. 366 00:15:19.332 --> 00:15:20.672 But that's a good answer. 367 00:15:21.192 --> 00:15:22.593 After working with a lot of startups, 368 00:15:22.973 --> 00:15:29.975 this is when you realize that research altogether and especially trying to get those customer investigation in the way is so helpful. 369 00:15:30.615 --> 00:15:31.236 bought your 370 00:15:31.836 --> 00:15:34.198 DIY customer investigation guide. 371 00:15:34.618 --> 00:15:37.340 And it helped me so much just contextualize everything. 372 00:15:37.901 --> 00:15:39.922 Because it's fine to talk to people, 373 00:15:39.962 --> 00:15:40.422 as you said, 374 00:15:40.542 --> 00:15:42.804 either from a case study perspective or trying to understand, 375 00:15:42.805 --> 00:15:42.964 okay, 376 00:15:43.084 --> 00:15:45.206 why did they choose us compared to the competition? 377 00:15:45.266 --> 00:15:50.310 But it's very easy to get out of scope and then ending up in a situation where it's like, 378 00:15:50.370 --> 00:15:50.490 oh, 379 00:15:50.650 --> 00:15:50.890 cool, 380 00:15:51.070 --> 00:15:56.454 but we don't have any discovered insights that can just help us market to that market better. 381 00:15:57.135 --> 00:15:57.255 Yep. 382 00:15:59.951 --> 00:16:03.534 I want to go back to the one third of us. 383 00:16:04.054 --> 00:16:08.478 So I came into tech for manufacturing where it was like where they sold B2B, 384 00:16:08.678 --> 00:16:09.799 but then that went to B2C. 385 00:16:09.800 --> 00:16:11.461 So it was straight distribution. 386 00:16:11.961 --> 00:16:12.121 Yeah. 387 00:16:12.862 --> 00:16:17.826 And what was interesting is I started in the customer success. 388 00:16:17.846 --> 00:16:19.707 So obviously I'm talking to customers all the time. 389 00:16:19.767 --> 00:16:21.088 But when I went into product marketing, 390 00:16:21.789 --> 00:16:28.955 I was training customers like directly in front of them or get on roofs. 391 00:16:29.175 --> 00:16:30.435 because that's what the products were. 392 00:16:30.755 --> 00:16:33.136 And we were like doing all of that stuff. 393 00:16:33.156 --> 00:16:34.437 We were going to their warehouses, 394 00:16:34.577 --> 00:16:35.857 seeing how distribution worked, 395 00:16:36.397 --> 00:16:39.298 seeing how when they sold to the actual contractors. 396 00:16:39.798 --> 00:16:40.858 And it felt so normal, 397 00:16:41.099 --> 00:16:41.299 right? 398 00:16:46.240 --> 00:16:47.780 Anytime we had customers come in, 399 00:16:47.800 --> 00:16:48.821 because they were huge. 400 00:16:48.841 --> 00:16:51.141 So we had an onsite thing that customers would come visit. 401 00:16:51.722 --> 00:16:54.242 You try to integrate other teams across the org, 402 00:16:54.342 --> 00:16:56.043 normally wouldn't be hanging out with customers. 403 00:16:56.879 --> 00:16:57.860 So like point blank, 404 00:16:57.861 --> 00:17:00.782 it sounds like we've had a very similar experience before coming in here. 405 00:17:00.943 --> 00:17:02.784 Why do you think it is so different? 406 00:17:02.824 --> 00:17:08.749 And there is just this dynamic of a one third of us or more are not getting that access. 407 00:17:09.550 --> 00:17:10.130 Yeah, 408 00:17:10.150 --> 00:17:11.271 I think about this a lot. 409 00:17:12.092 --> 00:17:13.093 And what I'm going to tell you is, 410 00:17:14.094 --> 00:17:15.615 is like a lived experience, 411 00:17:15.695 --> 00:17:16.576 a bit of is the data. 412 00:17:17.717 --> 00:17:20.139 So I'm also curious to know what y'all think after 413 00:17:20.760 --> 00:17:21.600 I give my spiel. 414 00:17:24.243 --> 00:17:24.363 So. 415 00:17:26.991 --> 00:17:33.574 B2B is an interesting world because if you look at the distinctions between the two, 416 00:17:35.875 --> 00:17:37.436 so at a foundational level, 417 00:17:37.576 --> 00:17:38.656 you open up any textbook, 418 00:17:39.977 --> 00:17:41.757 they don't discern between the two models. 419 00:17:42.458 --> 00:17:47.760 They're talking more about consumer models really in the 101 textbooks that I was studying 420 00:17:48.320 --> 00:17:48.841 30 years ago. 421 00:17:50.881 --> 00:17:53.943 And consumer markets have large total addressable markets. 422 00:17:54.443 --> 00:18:12.959 right the categories are generalized and well defined they fit mostly into everyday lifestyle type of things right so i ride motorcycles i'm a gardener i'm a snowboarder whatever they're what we call less considered purchases so that there's not a lot of thought that goes into them typically the 423 00:18:13.019 --> 00:18:22.747 ops they act more like b2b decisions where they're highly largely heavily considered house car college education right b2b's different were 424 00:18:23.275 --> 00:18:24.676 It's all hyper niche. 425 00:18:25.837 --> 00:18:27.778 There's smaller total addressable markets. 426 00:18:28.379 --> 00:18:33.082 It's all contextualized through business models because it's another layer of depth. 427 00:18:33.522 --> 00:18:37.125 So it's the person in the business and in the business processes. 428 00:18:37.745 --> 00:18:39.346 And how you would have done manufacturing, 429 00:18:39.406 --> 00:18:39.666 Eric, 430 00:18:40.467 --> 00:18:42.708 would have probably been different than maybe one of your competitors. 431 00:18:42.748 --> 00:18:45.450 There would have been differences in how they do manufacturing processes, 432 00:18:45.510 --> 00:18:46.911 even with just-in-time delivery. 433 00:18:46.951 --> 00:18:48.152 Like what's their supply chain? 434 00:18:48.272 --> 00:18:52.115 That's different than when you're trying to sell liquid death versus Perrier. 435 00:18:53.315 --> 00:18:54.376 Like it's just, 436 00:18:55.616 --> 00:18:56.597 so why am I saying all this? 437 00:18:56.637 --> 00:18:58.077 There's a few things happening at once. 438 00:18:58.578 --> 00:19:01.099 One is most founding teams are, 439 00:19:01.299 --> 00:19:03.680 most founders are the subject matter expert of it. 440 00:19:03.820 --> 00:19:06.561 And they're a technical subject matter expert. 441 00:19:07.002 --> 00:19:07.542 Not always, 442 00:19:08.862 --> 00:19:12.264 but they see the opportunity and then they want to build the thing, 443 00:19:12.324 --> 00:19:13.445 but they don't realize. 444 00:19:13.446 --> 00:19:16.086 And this is what I see with founders that there is their perception of one, 445 00:19:16.226 --> 00:19:18.407 like their lived experience of one data point. 446 00:19:19.119 --> 00:19:23.242 And how do they know that how they want to solve this problem is how others want to solve this problem? 447 00:19:24.223 --> 00:19:25.263 Probably is true. 448 00:19:25.264 --> 00:19:26.424 It holds some weight. 449 00:19:27.505 --> 00:19:29.326 But they're just using one vantage point, 450 00:19:30.767 --> 00:19:30.967 right? 451 00:19:31.908 --> 00:19:35.971 But that becomes the proxy for what they think marketing should do. 452 00:19:37.572 --> 00:19:39.133 And then once the company grows, 453 00:19:39.193 --> 00:19:44.597 it becomes the sales team if it's very much like a sales-led conversation. 454 00:19:45.697 --> 00:19:46.478 And sales is great. 455 00:19:46.558 --> 00:19:48.039 Like if before the internet. 456 00:19:48.547 --> 00:19:54.755 That is how most deals got closed and most information wasn't controlled by the vendors. 457 00:19:54.775 --> 00:19:57.599 I remember what it was like to try and get information on stuff. 458 00:19:57.619 --> 00:19:59.040 It was a nightmare before the internet. 459 00:19:59.441 --> 00:20:00.462 Everything's flipped now though. 460 00:20:00.983 --> 00:20:04.067 I can build a consideration set in five minutes from Reddit. 461 00:20:05.116 --> 00:20:06.397 That didn't exist 20 years ago. 462 00:20:07.798 --> 00:20:10.560 But the mindset is still, 463 00:20:10.840 --> 00:20:12.682 we'll go talk to sales and tell you everything they know. 464 00:20:13.602 --> 00:20:15.424 But all we're doing is operating what we see. 465 00:20:16.244 --> 00:20:17.005 It's like the founder. 466 00:20:17.365 --> 00:20:21.248 We're only looking at our own little bubble rather than looking from the outside and looking in. 467 00:20:22.749 --> 00:20:23.650 So that's part of it. 468 00:20:24.471 --> 00:20:27.113 There's just a misunderstanding of what marketing does in B2B. 469 00:20:27.293 --> 00:20:27.533 Again, 470 00:20:27.534 --> 00:20:28.754 it gets back to the four Ps. 471 00:20:28.974 --> 00:20:30.075 In consumer markets, 472 00:20:30.135 --> 00:20:31.456 it's very well established. 473 00:20:32.248 --> 00:20:34.049 Marketing drives a lot of the decisions. 474 00:20:34.290 --> 00:20:35.210 Look at your wall there. 475 00:20:36.011 --> 00:20:38.893 Marketing in that world for a good reason. 476 00:20:40.194 --> 00:20:47.599 Gartner will tell you and the people in those large and selling companies will tell you about all their work to do in consumer research and the modeling they do. 477 00:20:48.640 --> 00:20:53.223 That's harder to do in B2B where it's actually qualitative research, 478 00:20:53.263 --> 00:20:58.687 which is the key driver of our understanding because like small markets and niche applications. 479 00:21:00.932 --> 00:21:02.613 The sales team and the founding team, 480 00:21:03.453 --> 00:21:10.597 unless you're in like a product-led consumer type thing like Calendly or Chili Piper, 481 00:21:14.840 --> 00:21:20.723 they think that what they see in front of them is the data that's going to unlock how you talk to the market. 482 00:21:21.483 --> 00:21:22.764 So why would I go do that? 483 00:21:22.844 --> 00:21:29.728 Because marketing is just the arts and crafts department that's going to help us sell more of this stuff. 484 00:21:30.440 --> 00:21:36.983 But because they don't understand that the majority of a market's not going to buy them as soon as they see the ad, 485 00:21:37.363 --> 00:21:41.164 like they might for an impulse buy if it's Perrier versus Liquid Death, 486 00:21:41.485 --> 00:21:43.185 it's actually probably a two-year cycle. 487 00:21:44.746 --> 00:21:51.189 They don't understand how to manage marketing for that one-third because they just don't understand how that part of the business world works. 488 00:21:51.949 --> 00:21:53.369 I don't know if I've answered it well, 489 00:21:54.470 --> 00:21:59.392 but they just don't get how marketing fits into the history of business development in B2B. 490 00:22:00.484 --> 00:22:01.705 And that's the big gap. 491 00:22:02.706 --> 00:22:05.427 I have a follow-up question related to persona. 492 00:22:05.768 --> 00:22:11.251 And this is a specific challenge I've noticed with some clients and just prior work in sales. 493 00:22:12.092 --> 00:22:12.993 Persona research. 494 00:22:13.433 --> 00:22:14.894 You mentioned earlier in the conversation, 495 00:22:14.934 --> 00:22:15.194 Ryan, 496 00:22:15.254 --> 00:22:19.517 is that how do we tie that work to this specific value? 497 00:22:19.597 --> 00:22:24.841 Because how I've seen persona research today is a team goes behind closed doors, 498 00:22:25.301 --> 00:22:26.682 climb up to their ivory tower, 499 00:22:27.202 --> 00:22:29.724 and they write this elaborate story. 500 00:22:30.264 --> 00:22:32.105 about this hypothetical person, 501 00:22:32.706 --> 00:22:34.487 about why they love our product, 502 00:22:34.867 --> 00:22:36.048 what our product delivers, 503 00:22:36.288 --> 00:22:39.771 with zero context as to what are they looking at? 504 00:22:40.171 --> 00:22:42.012 What are the problems they're looking at? 505 00:22:42.013 --> 00:22:44.374 And if I'm a salesperson talking to this person, 506 00:22:45.255 --> 00:22:47.336 how much value, 507 00:22:47.496 --> 00:22:47.616 i.e. 508 00:22:47.656 --> 00:22:48.357 dollar signs, 509 00:22:49.778 --> 00:22:51.779 how likely will this person help me close this deal? 510 00:22:52.199 --> 00:22:53.560 So I'm curious from your work, 511 00:22:54.301 --> 00:22:58.544 how are you talking to your clients today to tie the number? 512 00:22:58.952 --> 00:23:13.940 to the research that you're delivering to say this is the impact that we're going to deliver for you today and i don't have a journalistic uh background degree this is just all off the top of my head you're 513 00:23:13.941 --> 00:23:28.548 great though i appreciate you you come a long way i look at research design as you start with what is it you want to do in the business what do you need to know to do that thing who's going to give you the information that's a really 514 00:23:29.100 --> 00:23:45.685 simplistic way to look at it but if you look at any academic work on like research design that's really the crux of it most of the clients i get are the converted to right so they're on the train of we need we need more insights and 515 00:23:45.705 --> 00:23:57.888 they've gone through the the landscape of or the hellscape of we're not getting our pipeline filled fast enough or sales always has to educate people on what We're doing... 516 00:23:58.428 --> 00:24:01.631 We're not hitting their targets to struggle to find the right people. 517 00:24:01.771 --> 00:24:03.752 Even when we're having conversations, 518 00:24:03.753 --> 00:24:05.514 they don't not qualified people. 519 00:24:06.354 --> 00:24:07.515 Outbound's not working. 520 00:24:07.575 --> 00:24:08.196 No kidding. 521 00:24:08.656 --> 00:24:10.398 Some of the stuff you probably all hear. 522 00:24:12.359 --> 00:24:18.524 So my job is to show that we are going to increase the chances of you talking to the right people, 523 00:24:19.946 --> 00:24:20.886 which sounds really fluffy. 524 00:24:21.907 --> 00:24:27.652 But that's marketing because you're just increasing the opportunity. 525 00:24:28.032 --> 00:24:31.554 for sales to close. 526 00:24:31.555 --> 00:24:32.795 I talked to a client yesterday. 527 00:24:34.436 --> 00:24:36.798 We're just starting to look at doing some work. 528 00:24:39.599 --> 00:24:40.780 And very smart person. 529 00:24:40.800 --> 00:24:42.061 I'm very excited to work with them. 530 00:24:43.722 --> 00:24:44.322 They said to me, 531 00:24:44.502 --> 00:24:45.663 when we were talking about their sales, 532 00:24:46.303 --> 00:24:46.424 said, 533 00:24:46.444 --> 00:24:47.804 I feel like we need to actually, 534 00:24:48.545 --> 00:24:50.586 the first thing I want to do is some sales enablement, 535 00:24:50.946 --> 00:24:51.827 some case studies. 536 00:24:53.208 --> 00:24:53.448 Okay. 537 00:24:55.600 --> 00:24:58.924 What's your conversion rate from like qualified opportunities to close? 538 00:24:59.064 --> 00:24:59.204 Oh, 539 00:24:59.485 --> 00:25:00.967 we're closing 40%. 540 00:25:00.968 --> 00:25:01.187 I'm like... 541 00:25:04.310 --> 00:25:05.831 And they thought that was bad. 542 00:25:07.593 --> 00:25:08.773 Because in their minds, 543 00:25:09.254 --> 00:25:10.455 it should be 100% 544 00:25:11.796 --> 00:25:13.497 of all the conversations we have. 545 00:25:14.097 --> 00:25:17.940 Because we have a product that fits this buyer group. 546 00:25:19.221 --> 00:25:19.481 I said, 547 00:25:19.501 --> 00:25:19.782 okay, 548 00:25:23.244 --> 00:25:26.226 what makes you think that they're ready to buy even when they talk to you? 549 00:25:28.928 --> 00:25:29.329 I don't know. 550 00:25:29.469 --> 00:25:30.890 We have a thing that works for them. 551 00:25:31.854 --> 00:25:48.183 have you ever analyzed your sales calls to figure out why they might not be buying or some clothes lost oh yeah no are you recording your sales calls well not really but 40 is bad whereas 552 00:25:48.203 --> 00:26:00.670 the benchmarks i think to my extent y'all can educate me i thought it was 20 to 30 and that's good so it's a perception thing with a lot of my customers zach where it's like 553 00:26:02.158 --> 00:26:03.398 They don't know what they don't know. 554 00:26:04.199 --> 00:26:10.020 And there's a lot of anxiety in the business world to get shit done. 555 00:26:10.540 --> 00:26:11.661 I'm sure you all have felt it. 556 00:26:12.641 --> 00:26:13.301 There's pressures, 557 00:26:13.341 --> 00:26:13.801 anxiety, 558 00:26:14.121 --> 00:26:15.182 especially when money's involved. 559 00:26:16.202 --> 00:26:18.943 Especially when founders are looking at the cash flow statements. 560 00:26:19.323 --> 00:26:19.803 My dad, 561 00:26:20.783 --> 00:26:22.864 he only looked at one number every single month. 562 00:26:23.964 --> 00:26:24.204 Actually, 563 00:26:24.264 --> 00:26:25.665 weekly cash flow. 564 00:26:26.945 --> 00:26:30.206 Can we pay our obligations this week? 565 00:26:30.986 --> 00:26:33.028 Everything else was just noise. 566 00:26:34.429 --> 00:26:43.375 So my clients come in and they already have an idea of what they want to do with me as a market researcher. 567 00:26:44.216 --> 00:26:45.997 But how I often now phrase it is like, 568 00:26:46.657 --> 00:26:47.878 how quickly do you want it? 569 00:26:49.800 --> 00:26:52.422 Because now I'm of the thesis that 570 00:26:53.963 --> 00:26:55.424 I don't always want to talk to customers. 571 00:26:56.264 --> 00:26:58.306 And talking to customers actually can take a long time. 572 00:26:59.182 --> 00:27:12.352 Do I want to talk to in-market buyers and maybe be able to recruit them in a matter of a few days to understand why people who fit my ICP are not buying me or are waiting 573 00:27:12.872 --> 00:27:16.154 X number of time to buy because I need to influence the market. 574 00:27:16.174 --> 00:27:18.316 That's a whole other thing. 575 00:27:19.017 --> 00:27:20.277 When I work internally with clients, 576 00:27:20.858 --> 00:27:21.598 it's a challenge, 577 00:27:21.618 --> 00:27:22.399 but when they come to me, 578 00:27:23.480 --> 00:27:24.761 hopefully they've been seeing my stuff, 579 00:27:24.841 --> 00:27:26.242 they've listened to smart people like you. 580 00:27:27.046 --> 00:27:29.787 And they're starting to realize that there's market research, 581 00:27:31.128 --> 00:27:33.028 there's more depth to it than they give a credit for. 582 00:27:34.589 --> 00:27:35.690 That's a welcome sight. 583 00:27:35.850 --> 00:27:39.211 Like seeing people for something that is not necessarily urgent, 584 00:27:39.271 --> 00:27:41.952 like making them see and realize that it's actually, 585 00:27:43.273 --> 00:27:44.633 I don't want to use a buzzword, 586 00:27:44.653 --> 00:27:47.314 but like super crucial to their business. 587 00:27:47.354 --> 00:27:49.375 I think we're seeing that with messaging a lot, 588 00:27:49.415 --> 00:27:51.236 especially in the last few years where people were like, 589 00:27:51.276 --> 00:27:53.017 I don't want to spend money on that. 590 00:27:53.097 --> 00:27:56.138 We're seeing a lot of people taking in that. 591 00:27:56.378 --> 00:27:57.498 specific field of expertise. 592 00:27:58.018 --> 00:27:58.179 Guys, 593 00:27:58.279 --> 00:28:04.440 I would love to maybe do a quick 180 and tackle a subject that we've been tackling more during that season. 594 00:28:04.460 --> 00:28:05.100 But before that, 595 00:28:05.101 --> 00:28:07.081 do you have any follow-up questions for Ryan? 596 00:28:10.042 --> 00:28:10.542 You guys are good? 597 00:28:10.622 --> 00:28:10.962 Perfect. 598 00:28:11.642 --> 00:28:16.284 So you said that you're working right now with a client and you ask them, 599 00:28:16.484 --> 00:28:16.744 hey, 600 00:28:16.824 --> 00:28:17.984 are you recording your sales calls? 601 00:28:18.064 --> 00:28:18.184 Oh, 602 00:28:18.244 --> 00:28:18.604 not really. 603 00:28:19.845 --> 00:28:22.565 One of the key use case of AI, 604 00:28:22.645 --> 00:28:25.126 and it's something we've been recurring talking on season four, 605 00:28:25.906 --> 00:28:31.231 is leveraging those color recordings for analyzing customer insights, 606 00:28:31.331 --> 00:28:31.771 interviews, 607 00:28:31.791 --> 00:28:35.234 and as someone who created his own custom GPT that I used, 608 00:28:35.334 --> 00:28:35.774 by the way, 609 00:28:35.974 --> 00:28:38.276 to interview people and just give guidance. 610 00:28:39.738 --> 00:28:40.658 How are you seeing 611 00:28:41.559 --> 00:28:44.962 AI evolve in the direction of customer investigation, 612 00:28:45.062 --> 00:28:45.883 buyer investigation? 613 00:28:51.908 --> 00:28:54.550 The quick answer is it's made it so much easier. 614 00:28:55.918 --> 00:28:58.200 So I'm what you would call a qualitative researcher. 615 00:28:58.201 --> 00:29:00.261 I didn't even use that term like five years ago. 616 00:29:00.262 --> 00:29:01.722 This has been a learning journey for me too. 617 00:29:01.982 --> 00:29:03.864 In qualitative research, 618 00:29:04.444 --> 00:29:05.345 they have a process. 619 00:29:05.445 --> 00:29:08.767 There's a few ways they describe it in every type of discipline. 620 00:29:08.807 --> 00:29:10.008 There's different methodologies, 621 00:29:10.068 --> 00:29:12.570 but there's a process called thematic analysis, 622 00:29:12.650 --> 00:29:14.811 which is like the most commonly used one. 623 00:29:14.991 --> 00:29:16.312 And it is what it sounds like. 624 00:29:16.893 --> 00:29:17.954 You talk to a bunch of people, 625 00:29:18.614 --> 00:29:19.835 you find the themes, 626 00:29:20.896 --> 00:29:22.397 the analysis of the themes, 627 00:29:23.497 --> 00:29:23.938 and then you... 628 00:29:24.446 --> 00:29:25.687 really bring up the insights. 629 00:29:25.707 --> 00:29:28.489 They call it codifying in some circles. 630 00:29:29.790 --> 00:29:32.672 If anyone really wants to understand this type of work, 631 00:29:32.673 --> 00:29:34.413 go talk to your UI UX people. 632 00:29:36.054 --> 00:29:38.056 They are doing this stuff in the software world. 633 00:29:38.076 --> 00:29:39.497 They're doing this stuff all day long. 634 00:29:39.597 --> 00:29:42.359 I didn't realize that until I started talking to UI UX people. 635 00:29:42.499 --> 00:29:43.119 They're talking, 636 00:29:43.679 --> 00:29:46.882 they're recruiting people and customers all the time. 637 00:29:46.962 --> 00:29:47.522 That's another way, 638 00:29:47.582 --> 00:29:47.802 Zach, 639 00:29:47.822 --> 00:29:48.983 that you could probably position it. 640 00:29:50.324 --> 00:29:52.786 The design and product team are talking to 641 00:29:53.066 --> 00:29:57.514 customers and users all the time to make the product better ai has been really interesting because 642 00:29:59.444 --> 00:30:02.065 The process I would have followed before is, 643 00:30:02.585 --> 00:30:02.805 okay, 644 00:30:03.545 --> 00:30:04.425 let's just say 12. 645 00:30:04.546 --> 00:30:05.526 I interview 12 people. 646 00:30:05.606 --> 00:30:06.786 There's a reason I interview 12. 647 00:30:06.787 --> 00:30:08.747 It's not 7. 648 00:30:08.748 --> 00:30:10.927 It's not 15. 649 00:30:10.928 --> 00:30:11.787 I go through the transcripts, 650 00:30:12.028 --> 00:30:13.528 and I start highlighting things manually. 651 00:30:13.908 --> 00:30:14.808 I even use software. 652 00:30:14.828 --> 00:30:17.529 There's lots of different tools out there for qualitative research. 653 00:30:17.629 --> 00:30:17.849 Again, 654 00:30:18.009 --> 00:30:18.389 UI, 655 00:30:18.509 --> 00:30:19.530 UX people often use, 656 00:30:19.570 --> 00:30:20.030 but I, 657 00:30:20.050 --> 00:30:21.270 as a qualitative researcher, 658 00:30:21.550 --> 00:30:24.151 I use their tools for what I do. 659 00:30:25.371 --> 00:30:26.471 And you'll highlight things, 660 00:30:26.491 --> 00:30:27.612 and you bucket things, 661 00:30:27.613 --> 00:30:28.392 and you group things. 662 00:30:29.940 --> 00:30:30.260 Now, 663 00:30:30.760 --> 00:30:35.062 with ChatGPT or Gemini or Cloud or whatever you want to use, 664 00:30:36.623 --> 00:30:38.063 I can upload the transcripts. 665 00:30:39.224 --> 00:30:40.945 And what used to take me two weeks, 666 00:30:40.965 --> 00:30:41.765 I can do in two days. 667 00:30:43.586 --> 00:30:44.446 It is so good. 668 00:30:46.047 --> 00:30:50.108 And so I worked with Zach Messler on a project a few months ago. 669 00:30:51.669 --> 00:30:52.909 He brought me in to work with a client. 670 00:30:52.910 --> 00:30:53.370 He's wonderful. 671 00:30:53.390 --> 00:30:53.830 I love him. 672 00:30:53.870 --> 00:30:54.670 He's a wonderful man. 673 00:30:55.630 --> 00:30:59.212 And when I showed him what I did. 674 00:31:00.656 --> 00:31:06.481 I recruited a sample of 12 people and did all the thematic analysis from start to finish in five weeks. 675 00:31:07.982 --> 00:31:11.705 Sometimes it takes five months in-house. 676 00:31:11.706 --> 00:31:15.128 You should have seen this drawing on the floor. 677 00:31:16.229 --> 00:31:18.271 It was the depth of what I could do now. 678 00:31:19.112 --> 00:31:20.513 It would have taken me two, 679 00:31:20.533 --> 00:31:21.734 three weeks to get on what I just had, 680 00:31:21.735 --> 00:31:22.595 and I did in a few days. 681 00:31:23.475 --> 00:31:24.937 And I probably even got way more. 682 00:31:25.998 --> 00:31:27.058 So AI is great. 683 00:31:28.019 --> 00:31:28.520 Here's the thing, 684 00:31:28.580 --> 00:31:28.760 though. 685 00:31:30.412 --> 00:31:31.032 And everyone, 686 00:31:31.332 --> 00:31:33.493 I think you all will probably understand this. 687 00:31:34.774 --> 00:31:38.035 Insights are only as good as how reliable your data is. 688 00:31:38.576 --> 00:31:40.696 So it goes back to just talking to customers. 689 00:31:40.736 --> 00:31:43.498 Don't treat it as research and just like a friendly chat. 690 00:31:43.499 --> 00:31:45.599 It's supposed to feel like that's the vibe, 691 00:31:45.699 --> 00:31:45.859 right? 692 00:31:45.860 --> 00:31:46.739 It's supposed to be like, 693 00:31:47.199 --> 00:31:48.100 we're having a good time, 694 00:31:48.220 --> 00:31:49.080 really digging your stuff. 695 00:31:49.680 --> 00:31:53.902 But what they don't realize is I'm doing is I have a structured intent to the conversation. 696 00:31:54.502 --> 00:31:55.223 Same way you would here, 697 00:31:55.603 --> 00:31:55.823 right? 698 00:31:55.943 --> 00:31:58.344 It's just even more thorough and more focused. 699 00:31:59.440 --> 00:32:05.704 So I have to guide that conversation properly because people don't answer in ways that are in the ways we want, 700 00:32:06.145 --> 00:32:06.745 to put it short, 701 00:32:07.085 --> 00:32:07.626 necessarily. 702 00:32:08.306 --> 00:32:10.548 There's lots of things happening in their memory recall. 703 00:32:10.708 --> 00:32:12.649 They can't recall information instantly, 704 00:32:12.650 --> 00:32:15.291 and it's really hard for us to give answers quickly. 705 00:32:16.432 --> 00:32:18.753 So if you don't conduct the research in the right way, 706 00:32:19.354 --> 00:32:21.115 even if you drop all this stuff in chat GPT, 707 00:32:21.736 --> 00:32:23.757 it might give you directional signal in the wrong way. 708 00:32:24.958 --> 00:32:26.239 And it's the risk of AI. 709 00:32:26.979 --> 00:32:27.900 I always tell people... 710 00:32:28.592 --> 00:32:29.653 when I'm doing this work, 711 00:32:29.953 --> 00:32:36.017 either I'm teaching it at the customer discovery stuff or now I'm talking to clients is just still do it manually for the first one. 712 00:32:36.538 --> 00:32:37.538 It's going to take longer, 713 00:32:38.759 --> 00:32:42.842 but you'll appreciate the how it all unfolds. 714 00:32:43.863 --> 00:32:44.203 So yeah, 715 00:32:44.243 --> 00:32:44.863 AI is great. 716 00:32:45.304 --> 00:32:50.507 I built that custom GPT just as a way for people to like frame their own questions, 717 00:32:50.567 --> 00:32:50.707 right? 718 00:32:50.708 --> 00:32:54.890 Because that's sometimes it's one of the top questions I get is what questions should you ask? 719 00:32:54.950 --> 00:32:55.831 And the answer is, 720 00:32:55.871 --> 00:32:56.511 what do you want to learn? 721 00:32:57.676 --> 00:33:05.139 I really love that example because I think there's something you're hitting in the nuance of AI and marketing today. 722 00:33:05.839 --> 00:33:08.641 Is that for a lot of us that get jazzed about AI, 723 00:33:08.721 --> 00:33:09.021 they're like, 724 00:33:09.141 --> 00:33:09.301 oh, 725 00:33:09.321 --> 00:33:09.901 thank gosh, 726 00:33:09.941 --> 00:33:12.022 I can use it to write my sales emails. 727 00:33:12.362 --> 00:33:14.303 I can use it to do this data analysis. 728 00:33:14.343 --> 00:33:21.866 But what you're hitting on is that there needs to be a level of contextual expertise to know what good looks like. 729 00:33:22.506 --> 00:33:24.087 One quick example is that 730 00:33:24.667 --> 00:33:26.428 I was working on. 731 00:33:26.908 --> 00:33:46.882 a competitive cheat sheet for a client and i was like hey you can repurpose this to write your emails for sales outbound gpt was writing it like a marketing email and we know what i'm talking about it's here's a paragraph about the product benefits here's why you should be interested in it but if you're using that on a sales like engagement buyers 732 00:33:46.902 --> 00:33:53.986 don't have time to read that long so knowing that insight i could just say hey this is what the parameters of what a sales emails should look like. 733 00:33:54.227 --> 00:33:55.688 It should be less than 50 words. 734 00:33:56.008 --> 00:33:56.288 It should... 735 00:33:56.428 --> 00:34:04.051 hit the main point and it should ask for interest around the call i really love that you're sharing that yeah i've interviewed over 2 736 00:34:04.391 --> 00:34:23.940 000 buyers and if you draw a line through what makes them gravitate towards any marketing or sales stuff and i'm not a lonely you can find in any type of gartner mckinsey long longitudinal study it's 737 00:34:24.020 --> 00:34:24.880 relevant and credible 738 00:34:26.832 --> 00:34:27.172 That's it. 739 00:34:28.513 --> 00:34:32.175 But you don't understand what's relevant and credible to people unless you understand how they think. 740 00:34:33.675 --> 00:34:33.855 Yeah, 741 00:34:34.096 --> 00:34:34.936 the context is... 742 00:34:35.896 --> 00:34:37.497 I was going back and forth with Anthony 743 00:34:38.057 --> 00:34:38.778 Fletch today. 744 00:34:39.418 --> 00:34:39.838 Because he's, 745 00:34:39.978 --> 00:34:42.860 should I call things workflows or should I call things business processes? 746 00:34:42.861 --> 00:34:44.901 And like both work because it depends on the context. 747 00:34:45.781 --> 00:34:45.961 Right? 748 00:34:45.962 --> 00:34:48.462 Because their whole thing is whittle it down to the one key thing. 749 00:34:49.043 --> 00:34:49.323 Sure, 750 00:34:49.703 --> 00:34:51.664 but you have to have the context to be able to whittle it down. 751 00:34:54.513 --> 00:34:55.633 It's the same with AI too, 752 00:34:55.673 --> 00:34:55.833 right? 753 00:34:55.953 --> 00:35:00.035 You need to bring context and you need to bring it into a bucket for things to be understood. 754 00:35:00.175 --> 00:35:04.096 If you write stuff and then it doesn't work and then you keep scrolling different pages, 755 00:35:04.636 --> 00:35:05.516 I don't exactly remember, 756 00:35:05.517 --> 00:35:10.797 but you can add prefix on Google to find exactly which source of website it's coming from. 757 00:35:11.798 --> 00:35:14.578 Like when you bring that context and especially like with AI, 758 00:35:14.699 --> 00:35:16.059 like possibility are infinite. 759 00:35:16.479 --> 00:35:20.140 You can just come in a situation when it might take more time, 760 00:35:20.160 --> 00:35:21.220 but ultimately at the end, 761 00:35:21.320 --> 00:35:23.161 you're saving thousands of hours, 762 00:35:23.221 --> 00:35:23.401 right? 763 00:35:23.441 --> 00:35:23.761 convert 764 00:35:23.861 --> 00:35:40.686 what's your example of five weeks versus five months i'll use perplexity or google deep research and to find things there's a tool i use called gigabrain which is the aggregator of red threads so 765 00:35:40.687 --> 00:35:50.129 this is all desk research really what they would call it secondary desk research and marketing nerd circles what's in those threads is contextually relevant to me because the ai 766 00:35:50.429 --> 00:36:06.558 can hallucinate like it's just picking stuff and putting together so you have to be very cautious with how relying on the machine too much because it can steer you in the wrong direction i mean the i robot and 767 00:36:06.559 --> 00:36:19.665 it's properly structured interviews and just to a loose conversation and there's other ones like it reddit has opened up their api massively it's a bit of inside it is like a great place. 768 00:36:20.117 --> 00:36:21.397 If you want reviews, 769 00:36:22.198 --> 00:36:22.558 go to G2. 770 00:36:22.838 --> 00:36:24.018 If you want the real reviews, 771 00:36:24.118 --> 00:36:24.678 go to Reddit. 772 00:36:27.679 --> 00:36:29.280 Because that's what people... 773 00:36:29.340 --> 00:36:34.061 It's all people's unvarnished opinion about what works and what doesn't. 774 00:36:34.801 --> 00:36:35.701 It doesn't mean they're right. 775 00:36:36.682 --> 00:36:38.162 It just means it's what they believe. 776 00:36:39.362 --> 00:36:40.523 And they're very honest about it. 777 00:36:42.503 --> 00:36:43.904 I was asking for my own personal... 778 00:36:44.204 --> 00:36:44.404 Yeah, 779 00:36:44.405 --> 00:36:44.984 I was going to say, 780 00:36:45.504 --> 00:36:46.624 going with a flashlight, 781 00:36:46.725 --> 00:36:47.425 it feels good. 782 00:36:49.133 --> 00:36:51.075 There's Gummy Search as well that exists. 783 00:36:51.535 --> 00:36:54.498 You can basically create personas by combining different subreddits. 784 00:36:55.638 --> 00:36:58.921 And then you can pay either a day pass or a subscription monthly. 785 00:36:59.482 --> 00:37:03.065 But you can basically crawl specific pains, 786 00:37:03.145 --> 00:37:04.166 specific questions, 787 00:37:04.286 --> 00:37:05.166 looking at trends. 788 00:37:05.306 --> 00:37:06.127 And the cool thing is, 789 00:37:06.908 --> 00:37:09.430 this software is showing you how much time you're saving. 790 00:37:09.830 --> 00:37:13.193 Because instead of going to all of Reddit manually and finding the right trends and everything, 791 00:37:13.533 --> 00:37:17.797 it just shows when you're saving like 45 minutes looking at those trends. 792 00:37:18.261 --> 00:37:19.182 in a matter of seconds. 793 00:37:20.243 --> 00:37:21.223 But you still have to remember, 794 00:37:21.844 --> 00:37:24.906 you have to contextualize the data because remember, 795 00:37:25.087 --> 00:37:27.669 it's still not necessarily your customers and how they think. 796 00:37:28.229 --> 00:37:28.750 It's helpful. 797 00:37:29.070 --> 00:37:30.351 It's a holistic picture. 798 00:37:30.352 --> 00:37:31.172 It's right tool, 799 00:37:31.212 --> 00:37:31.612 right job. 800 00:37:31.692 --> 00:37:32.473 Sometimes you need a hammer, 801 00:37:32.553 --> 00:37:33.293 sometimes you need a wrench. 802 00:37:34.654 --> 00:37:38.818 And I think the term you described right there from UX classes I take is like the micro persona. 803 00:37:39.478 --> 00:37:41.660 But sometimes when marketing kind of falls flat, 804 00:37:41.900 --> 00:37:44.182 we take that micro persona and we throw it to sales like, 805 00:37:44.342 --> 00:37:45.363 this is the official persona. 806 00:37:45.503 --> 00:37:46.244 And what you're saying, 807 00:37:46.444 --> 00:37:47.805 you've got to validate that research. 808 00:37:48.145 --> 00:37:48.706 You do because it's, 809 00:37:48.926 --> 00:37:49.226 remember, 810 00:37:49.686 --> 00:37:56.152 B2B transactions are complex because you have a business partnering with a business over the course of years. 811 00:37:57.313 --> 00:38:00.956 And business models are not a monolith, 812 00:38:02.077 --> 00:38:02.237 right? 813 00:38:02.297 --> 00:38:04.019 And people's roles are not a monolith. 814 00:38:04.559 --> 00:38:10.804 What an IT director does in a hospital is different than what an IT director does at a Fortune 5000 software company, 815 00:38:13.006 --> 00:38:13.186 right? 816 00:38:13.226 --> 00:38:14.808 You can't just assume that what they do, 817 00:38:14.948 --> 00:38:16.229 they might have similarities. 818 00:38:17.793 --> 00:38:19.453 But how they think about things are different. 819 00:38:19.814 --> 00:38:21.574 I got a selfish question I got to ask. 820 00:38:22.414 --> 00:38:23.815 Hopefully our listeners care too. 821 00:38:23.915 --> 00:38:24.555 Keep up behind you. 822 00:38:25.775 --> 00:38:25.975 Yeah, 823 00:38:26.395 --> 00:38:26.976 yeah. 824 00:38:28.056 --> 00:38:29.456 Grogu was reading it last night, 825 00:38:29.716 --> 00:38:31.497 it looks like. 826 00:38:32.577 --> 00:38:32.917 So yeah, 827 00:38:32.957 --> 00:38:35.198 I've noticed when I do my research, 828 00:38:37.278 --> 00:38:39.399 I struggle with leading the witness. 829 00:38:40.219 --> 00:38:41.980 And I know you touched earlier, 830 00:38:42.060 --> 00:38:43.440 go in with a hypothesis. 831 00:38:43.460 --> 00:38:43.920 So I think 832 00:38:44.460 --> 00:38:46.161 I probably overextend that. 833 00:38:47.085 --> 00:38:53.270 So how can you help people like obviously one get buy-in to be like hey we actually have to go in with some intent and then 834 00:38:54.171 --> 00:39:01.717 I think more important is how do you get people to like okay you've got your hypothesis but don't lead the witness just make sure you're getting answers to the questions you need. 835 00:39:02.138 --> 00:39:03.699 Can you explain what you mean by intent? 836 00:39:05.921 --> 00:39:08.643 It's still the essence of what do you want to do with the business and why. 837 00:39:10.365 --> 00:39:12.747 You can have conversations about people on all sorts of stuff. 838 00:39:13.687 --> 00:39:14.508 Brand perception, 839 00:39:14.568 --> 00:39:15.169 brand identity. 840 00:39:16.225 --> 00:39:17.626 their user experience, 841 00:39:18.406 --> 00:39:20.067 how they build a consideration set, 842 00:39:20.927 --> 00:39:21.967 a closed lost. 843 00:39:22.327 --> 00:39:24.448 There's different types of ways. 844 00:39:24.548 --> 00:39:25.409 So it's on my site, 845 00:39:25.410 --> 00:39:25.809 Content Lift, 846 00:39:25.810 --> 00:39:29.270 and I bucket them there as a way for people to get started. 847 00:39:30.671 --> 00:39:39.534 And I think you start with what is it we want to do and where's the gap of information to help us make a informed decision around that. 848 00:39:40.115 --> 00:39:41.395 And that can be all sorts of stuff. 849 00:39:41.435 --> 00:39:42.516 We want to increase 850 00:39:43.716 --> 00:39:45.617 NPS conversions. 851 00:39:45.977 --> 00:39:47.301 Why are people not answering it? 852 00:39:48.484 --> 00:39:50.789 Why are people not filling our MBS survey? 853 00:39:50.870 --> 00:39:51.952 It's a valid question. 854 00:39:52.413 --> 00:39:53.757 I know it's a highly debated. 855 00:39:54.709 --> 00:39:55.149 metric. 856 00:39:55.429 --> 00:39:56.090 Some people love it. 857 00:39:56.091 --> 00:39:56.770 Some people hate it. 858 00:39:56.810 --> 00:39:58.151 But if your business says, 859 00:39:58.211 --> 00:39:58.391 yeah, 860 00:39:58.392 --> 00:39:59.532 this is a key thing for us. 861 00:40:00.232 --> 00:40:01.453 Why is only 5% 862 00:40:01.473 --> 00:40:03.434 of people we send you send it out? 863 00:40:03.494 --> 00:40:04.835 Let's go find out maybe. 864 00:40:06.656 --> 00:40:06.936 Leading, 865 00:40:07.176 --> 00:40:08.157 not leading is hard. 866 00:40:09.858 --> 00:40:11.659 I struggled with it when I was a reporter. 867 00:40:13.280 --> 00:40:14.981 It's one of the few things that are challenging. 868 00:40:15.501 --> 00:40:20.404 I go through a lot of that in the guide that Gabe mentioned that he used that I built. 869 00:40:22.509 --> 00:40:25.251 If you look at any type of investigative discipline, 870 00:40:26.971 --> 00:40:30.513 so let's just say law enforcement, 871 00:40:30.613 --> 00:40:30.994 legal, 872 00:40:31.874 --> 00:40:32.314 medical, 873 00:40:33.075 --> 00:40:35.176 medical being more like social sciences, 874 00:40:36.557 --> 00:40:37.137 therapeutical, 875 00:40:37.138 --> 00:40:40.099 even what I do as a journalist, 876 00:40:41.559 --> 00:40:44.741 and you look at sort of the essence of how people gather data, 877 00:40:45.041 --> 00:40:47.222 they don't care about subjectivity, 878 00:40:48.223 --> 00:40:49.724 they care about actions, 879 00:40:49.824 --> 00:40:50.564 behaviors, 880 00:40:50.824 --> 00:40:51.244 facts, 881 00:40:51.345 --> 00:40:51.985 timelines. 882 00:40:52.653 --> 00:40:53.673 The jobs to be done, 883 00:40:54.194 --> 00:40:54.534 folks, 884 00:40:54.614 --> 00:40:55.374 are great at this. 885 00:40:56.415 --> 00:40:57.235 Where did you start? 886 00:40:58.195 --> 00:40:59.796 Tell me about every single step in between. 887 00:40:59.876 --> 00:41:00.536 Where did you end? 888 00:41:02.937 --> 00:41:04.118 And you don't ask things like, 889 00:41:05.378 --> 00:41:06.799 you sound frustrated about that. 890 00:41:08.520 --> 00:41:09.760 Why was that your reaction? 891 00:41:10.821 --> 00:41:13.022 Sounding frustrated is leading the witness. 892 00:41:13.023 --> 00:41:14.102 It may not sound like it, 893 00:41:14.103 --> 00:41:14.742 but you are, 894 00:41:16.123 --> 00:41:16.343 right? 895 00:41:17.864 --> 00:41:18.964 I don't know if that answers the question, 896 00:41:19.044 --> 00:41:19.284 Eric, 897 00:41:19.584 --> 00:41:20.565 but it's... 898 00:41:21.309 --> 00:41:33.137 Really about trying to remove yourself from you have an objective right of thing you want to understand but your goal is to naturally organically get the data then 899 00:41:34.318 --> 00:41:40.482 Feed gets the naturally in or gonna get the data to help inform that objective and understand it 900 00:41:41.623 --> 00:41:44.165 Let me click another way Josh Braun sales guy. 901 00:41:44.166 --> 00:41:45.766 I don't know if any of you follow Josh Braun. 902 00:41:46.386 --> 00:41:46.566 Yeah, 903 00:41:46.567 --> 00:41:46.686 no 904 00:41:47.427 --> 00:41:50.409 Yeah, I knew Zach would good 905 00:41:50.833 --> 00:41:51.894 At Customer Discovery, 906 00:41:52.294 --> 00:41:54.135 he calls it a jobs-be-done methodology. 907 00:41:55.516 --> 00:41:57.937 But his whole thing is detach yourself from the outcome, 908 00:41:59.938 --> 00:42:00.178 right? 909 00:42:00.278 --> 00:42:01.139 From a sales perspective, 910 00:42:01.140 --> 00:42:02.239 it's the same thing as a researcher. 911 00:42:02.299 --> 00:42:03.500 You don't care about the outcome. 912 00:42:03.501 --> 00:42:05.181 You care about an objective truth. 913 00:42:07.682 --> 00:42:08.042 That's it. 914 00:42:08.243 --> 00:42:09.223 So behaviors, 915 00:42:09.403 --> 00:42:09.843 actions, 916 00:42:09.943 --> 00:42:10.444 timelines, 917 00:42:10.524 --> 00:42:11.004 narratives. 918 00:42:11.424 --> 00:42:12.005 What did you do? 919 00:42:12.585 --> 00:42:13.545 Why did you do this? 920 00:42:13.966 --> 00:42:14.886 Tell me more about that. 921 00:42:15.066 --> 00:42:15.887 What did you do next? 922 00:42:17.948 --> 00:42:18.888 A clarifying question. 923 00:42:18.889 --> 00:42:19.889 This is my last one for you, 924 00:42:19.909 --> 00:42:20.069 Ryan. 925 00:42:20.249 --> 00:42:24.913 is that from sales books I've read in the past piece of research that's about 50% 926 00:42:25.613 --> 00:42:29.576 of the decision comes from the buyer's emotion. 927 00:42:29.956 --> 00:42:34.660 So when I heard that piece of not asking about like that feeling, 928 00:42:35.501 --> 00:42:38.743 it runs contrary to what I've learned from sales of like, 929 00:42:39.243 --> 00:42:39.443 Hey, 930 00:42:39.544 --> 00:42:45.268 if you're talking to a buyer and you notice this underlying irritation, 931 00:42:45.888 --> 00:42:46.589 call it out. 932 00:42:47.021 --> 00:42:51.404 Because it might be something there that's influencing that decision. 933 00:42:51.405 --> 00:42:51.744 I'm curious, 934 00:42:51.844 --> 00:42:52.165 is that, 935 00:42:52.705 --> 00:42:55.287 how might that differ from what you're talking about right now? 936 00:42:56.167 --> 00:42:56.988 That's a fair question. 937 00:42:57.108 --> 00:42:57.228 So 938 00:42:58.729 --> 00:42:59.870 I'm not saying don't get emotion. 939 00:43:00.290 --> 00:43:04.753 Maybe another thing I should say is these things naturally come up in the conversation. 940 00:43:04.833 --> 00:43:07.375 People will tell you how they felt about things organically. 941 00:43:07.395 --> 00:43:08.376 You don't need to ask them. 942 00:43:09.076 --> 00:43:09.837 They will tell you. 943 00:43:12.198 --> 00:43:12.499 Oh, 944 00:43:13.039 --> 00:43:14.420 I really struggled with that part. 945 00:43:14.900 --> 00:43:15.681 The onboarding. 946 00:43:16.281 --> 00:43:32.572 could have been better why do you mean what do you mean by that i felt this and this happened here interesting what is it about that um that makes why is that so memorable for you tell me more about like why that those were your feelings so 947 00:43:32.573 --> 00:43:40.538 i'm not leading anything right what um happens sometimes is was it frustrating using our stuff what challenges did you have with our stuff 948 00:43:41.038 --> 00:43:45.381 I mean you can ask that it's not wrong but 949 00:43:45.793 --> 00:43:48.974 You often want these things to come up organically if you can, 950 00:43:49.054 --> 00:43:52.176 or at least just how did you feel about the onboarding process? 951 00:43:52.656 --> 00:43:53.336 Maybe they loved it. 952 00:43:54.056 --> 00:43:54.657 Because if you ask them, 953 00:43:54.658 --> 00:43:56.277 what was challenging with the onboarding process? 954 00:43:56.377 --> 00:43:56.858 Now they're like, 955 00:43:57.498 --> 00:43:57.658 okay, 956 00:43:57.698 --> 00:43:58.398 now I got to answer this. 957 00:43:58.478 --> 00:43:59.999 I got to give them something now. 958 00:44:00.479 --> 00:44:01.319 It was actually great, 959 00:44:01.379 --> 00:44:01.700 but okay, 960 00:44:01.820 --> 00:44:02.020 what? 961 00:44:02.420 --> 00:44:03.240 Tell me the one thing. 962 00:44:04.861 --> 00:44:05.261 Not wrong, 963 00:44:05.901 --> 00:44:06.602 but is that helpful? 964 00:44:07.722 --> 00:44:14.925 That's super helpful for me because I know I've given the wrong line of questioning more times than the right. 965 00:44:15.521 --> 00:44:16.001 Not wrong. 966 00:44:16.002 --> 00:44:17.062 You coach shameless plug. 967 00:44:17.102 --> 00:44:18.183 Do you coach folks on this? 968 00:44:18.263 --> 00:44:19.543 Yeah, 969 00:44:19.544 --> 00:44:19.603 I do. 970 00:44:19.604 --> 00:44:20.504 You hear that everybody, 971 00:44:22.185 --> 00:44:24.106 you hear that you need to be in Ryan's DMS. 972 00:44:26.227 --> 00:44:27.888 Give you an hour for free and that's it. 973 00:44:27.908 --> 00:44:28.348 The rest, 974 00:44:28.349 --> 00:44:30.029 you got to go directly to Ryan. 975 00:44:30.369 --> 00:44:30.850 I answered that. 976 00:44:31.290 --> 00:44:31.690 I answered, 977 00:44:31.890 --> 00:44:32.591 I answered them all. 978 00:44:32.851 --> 00:44:33.451 My DMS too. 979 00:44:33.551 --> 00:44:33.851 Seriously. 980 00:44:33.852 --> 00:44:34.732 People want to message me. 981 00:44:35.072 --> 00:44:35.212 Yeah. 982 00:44:35.252 --> 00:44:35.873 We talk shit, 983 00:44:35.913 --> 00:44:38.774 but it's always valuable too. 984 00:44:38.775 --> 00:44:40.375 Yeah. 985 00:44:40.376 --> 00:44:41.976 Ryan wants to be respectful of your time. 986 00:44:42.156 --> 00:44:43.537 And I feel like you just gave us. 987 00:44:43.757 --> 00:44:53.955 and everyone else like a huge masterclass on buyer and customer investigation where can people learn more about you when can they discover more and just get better and brighter at this 988 00:44:55.832 --> 00:44:57.373 I'm like all y'all LinkedIn is where 989 00:44:57.713 --> 00:45:00.395 I spend too much time and everyone thinks I'm weird. 990 00:45:01.376 --> 00:45:02.477 I always say it pays the bills. 991 00:45:02.677 --> 00:45:03.158 That's it. 992 00:45:03.218 --> 00:45:03.858 Just two places. 993 00:45:03.918 --> 00:45:07.201 I'm pretty easy to find and I'm always willing to help. 994 00:45:07.641 --> 00:45:08.302 I like helping. 995 00:45:09.263 --> 00:45:09.963 This stuff's hard, 996 00:45:10.003 --> 00:45:10.204 man. 997 00:45:10.284 --> 00:45:14.807 I think people don't understand how hard that it is, 998 00:45:14.888 --> 00:45:19.792 especially for marketers who I was very privileged that I got taught in business. 999 00:45:19.952 --> 00:45:21.113 I grew up in business. 1000 00:45:22.934 --> 00:45:23.675 So I have it. 1001 00:45:23.991 --> 00:45:40.782 very privileged position it's super hard so if any of y'all feel like frustrated you're not alone you're in good company and you're doing a good job amazing that's an amazing way to get in contact with you ryan 1002 00:45:41.183 --> 00:45:50.509 merci beaucoup we're very excited to have had the chance to have you on the show and thank you thank you everybody it doesn't be great love it that's not a problem right 1003 00:45:51.590 --> 00:45:53.091 We're not marketers. 1004 00:45:54.031 --> 00:45:54.352 See you guys. 1005 00:45:55.132 --> 00:45:55.393 See ya. 1006 00:45:56.274 --> 00:45:56.634 Later. 1007 00:46:03.723 --> 00:46:06.026 Thank you for listening to Win at Marketers. 1008 00:46:06.626 --> 00:46:07.647 If you like what you heard, 1009 00:46:07.888 --> 00:46:08.709 please subscribe. 1010 00:46:09.009 --> 00:46:10.331 Thanks again and see you soon.