WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.068 --> 00:00:05.031 Maybe our version of it is like people should be proud that they're using more clean, 2 00:00:05.251 --> 00:00:06.291 cheap energy, 3 00:00:06.512 --> 00:00:08.012 saving money on their energy bills, 4 00:00:08.252 --> 00:00:11.054 but also proud of the thing that's in their home. 5 00:00:11.214 --> 00:00:15.636 So you should only put things in your home that you love, 6 00:00:15.696 --> 00:00:19.138 objects that you find valuable and interesting. 7 00:00:19.178 --> 00:00:19.459 And so, 8 00:00:19.779 --> 00:00:19.959 yeah, 9 00:00:20.099 --> 00:00:24.101 I kind of hope that people will kind of show these off and tell people about it. 10 00:00:24.102 --> 00:00:29.224 And that'll be a large part of how we get more batteries out there and more renewables on the grid. 11 00:00:32.952 --> 00:00:33.592 For decades, 12 00:00:33.752 --> 00:00:37.835 the clean energy transition has been promising to reduce bills, 13 00:00:37.975 --> 00:00:38.855 cut emissions, 14 00:00:38.995 --> 00:00:41.877 and give households more control over their energy. 15 00:00:42.497 --> 00:00:43.077 And it has, 16 00:00:44.058 --> 00:00:47.100 mostly for households with a roof or a driveway, 17 00:00:47.940 --> 00:00:51.182 and a landlord who happens to be themselves. 18 00:00:52.202 --> 00:00:53.263 For everyone else, 19 00:00:53.523 --> 00:00:58.146 and that's roughly half of the population of Europe living in flats, 20 00:00:58.526 --> 00:01:00.527 like me and rented homes. 21 00:01:00.887 --> 00:01:02.528 Almost none of this. 22 00:01:02.872 --> 00:01:03.513 has landed. 23 00:01:04.413 --> 00:01:05.154 Smart tariffs? 24 00:01:05.755 --> 00:01:08.657 The next generation assume you own an EV. 25 00:01:09.778 --> 00:01:12.641 Rooftop solar assumes you own a roof. 26 00:01:13.221 --> 00:01:13.982 Home batteries? 27 00:01:14.463 --> 00:01:19.027 Assume they're professional installers and a wall you're allowed to drill into. 28 00:01:20.048 --> 00:01:24.612 Ashley Grealish has spent his career thinking about exactly this kind of gap. 29 00:01:25.332 --> 00:01:25.972 At BBbox, 30 00:01:26.172 --> 00:01:36.695 he helped bring solar energy to half a million homes in rural East Africa using pay-as-you-go models and IoT systems built around people with no upfront capital. 31 00:01:37.355 --> 00:01:38.156 At EV Energy, 32 00:01:38.336 --> 00:01:44.637 he built smart charging infrastructure and pushed against the assumption that it should only work for premium vehicles. 33 00:01:45.217 --> 00:01:45.477 Now, 34 00:01:45.718 --> 00:01:46.738 with Windfall Energy, 35 00:01:47.358 --> 00:01:51.599 he's asking a simpler and more uncomfortable question. 36 00:01:52.499 --> 00:01:54.460 If you live in a flat in London, 37 00:01:54.860 --> 00:01:55.440 or Paris, 38 00:01:55.580 --> 00:01:55.980 or Rome, 39 00:01:56.541 --> 00:01:57.021 or wherever, 40 00:01:57.381 --> 00:02:01.203 why can't you have a home battery that just works? 41 00:02:02.503 --> 00:02:04.464 The answer is Windfall. 42 00:02:04.844 --> 00:02:12.267 It's Windfall is building toward a 2.5 kilowatt hour battery that plugs into a standard socket, 43 00:02:12.887 --> 00:02:14.108 arrives overnight, 44 00:02:14.448 --> 00:02:16.629 and optimizes itself around the grid. 45 00:02:17.189 --> 00:02:17.969 No installation, 46 00:02:18.290 --> 00:02:19.070 no up overload, 47 00:02:19.390 --> 00:02:21.071 no life-size change required. 48 00:02:22.451 --> 00:02:24.272 Small enough to sit in a corner. 49 00:02:24.756 --> 00:02:29.759 and designed to be really pretty and be lived with for a decade or more. 50 00:02:30.819 --> 00:02:41.965 So this episode is about what it actually takes to build a clean energy product for people who have consistently been designed around rather than designed for, 51 00:02:42.466 --> 00:02:46.448 and what that reveals about the architecture of the transition itself. 52 00:02:48.249 --> 00:02:48.489 Ashley, 53 00:02:48.669 --> 00:02:49.389 welcome to the show. 54 00:02:50.010 --> 00:02:50.350 Thank you. 55 00:02:50.670 --> 00:02:50.970 Thank you. 56 00:02:51.370 --> 00:02:51.951 Great to be here. 57 00:02:51.991 --> 00:02:52.971 And what a great, 58 00:02:52.991 --> 00:02:53.952 that was a great intro. 59 00:02:54.572 --> 00:02:55.273 So thank you for that. 60 00:02:56.014 --> 00:02:56.134 So, 61 00:02:57.134 --> 00:02:58.055 Ashley, 62 00:02:58.436 --> 00:03:02.439 you have really started with a very different context, 63 00:03:02.519 --> 00:03:02.779 right? 64 00:03:02.859 --> 00:03:05.822 With the BB Box while still at Imperial. 65 00:03:06.442 --> 00:03:08.925 You got involved in some student initiatives. 66 00:03:09.545 --> 00:03:14.269 You've been bringing off-grid energy to rural communities in East Africa. 67 00:03:15.310 --> 00:03:17.051 And you studied engineering, 68 00:03:17.131 --> 00:03:17.412 right? 69 00:03:17.692 --> 00:03:21.235 And most engineering students don't really end up there, 70 00:03:21.715 --> 00:03:21.876 right? 71 00:03:21.877 --> 00:03:22.036 Yeah. 72 00:03:22.596 --> 00:03:23.356 What makes you laugh? 73 00:03:23.416 --> 00:03:25.937 So what drew you to that problem so early? 74 00:03:27.958 --> 00:03:30.418 I studied electronic engineering at Imperial. 75 00:03:30.658 --> 00:03:32.419 And when I was in school, 76 00:03:32.639 --> 00:03:35.180 the first iPhone had just been released. 77 00:03:35.181 --> 00:03:42.922 And I got really interested in this technology and decided that I wanted to design the future of mobile phones. 78 00:03:43.522 --> 00:03:49.964 So I studied electrical engineering and got an internship at a place called Arm. 79 00:03:50.184 --> 00:03:51.344 Arm make the chip. 80 00:03:51.784 --> 00:04:11.117 inside of phones and i was there doing a kind of summer internship there when um just before that a friend had come to me and said actually we've got this like technical problem with with some code that we're trying to run on the device we're we're building this thing it was a flatmate of of mine um 81 00:04:11.217 --> 00:04:16.161 and she was doing this thing to look at homes that don't have grid access across east Africa, 82 00:04:16.941 --> 00:04:21.104 put solar panels in the village and batteries and 83 00:04:21.696 --> 00:04:36.829 charged off those solar panels to to bring to them from homes to give them power and they had made their own kind of test device and they were struggling to get the code working so the first thing was just like this oh yeah sure i'll help you out you're a friend um 84 00:04:37.409 --> 00:04:50.180 whilst i was working at arm doing the thing that i thought i wanted to to do but i got more and more involved in this project and was looking at clean energy tech 85 00:04:51.065 --> 00:05:00.587 solar panels the price of solar panels was falling rapidly the price of batteries this is quite a long time ago but even then the price of batteries was falling rapidly 86 00:05:01.221 --> 00:05:01.861 And we were doing, 87 00:05:02.141 --> 00:05:03.542 as a student organization, 88 00:05:03.662 --> 00:05:10.023 I got more and more involved in this thing that would build central solar panels in the middle of a village on a building, 89 00:05:10.484 --> 00:05:13.905 and small batteries that would get charged in the center of them, 90 00:05:14.025 --> 00:05:14.985 taken to a house, 91 00:05:15.545 --> 00:05:16.805 rented one at a time, 92 00:05:16.885 --> 00:05:17.886 one charge at a time, 93 00:05:17.906 --> 00:05:18.806 to power lights. 94 00:05:19.426 --> 00:05:20.787 So I got really interested in this, 95 00:05:21.567 --> 00:05:23.987 became kind of obsessed with this idea, 96 00:05:24.688 --> 00:05:27.708 but thought that we could do one step better, 97 00:05:27.829 --> 00:05:28.349 which was, 98 00:05:28.549 --> 00:05:29.529 what if we don't? 99 00:05:29.669 --> 00:05:49.995 put all the solar panels together in the center instead put a solar panel on every house and sell them on a model that is pay as you go so pay monthly for your access to energy rather than all in one go it felt like there was something really interesting there because of that inflection point with solar panel prices things like that so 100 00:05:50.795 --> 00:05:57.677 talking with this friend ended up going to rwanda for the first time to help them with their project and then the next year decided 101 00:05:58.197 --> 00:06:00.999 that my master's thesis should be based around this. 102 00:06:01.080 --> 00:06:08.906 Can we make a Peugeot solar product that works in the area of Rwanda where we were operating? 103 00:06:09.347 --> 00:06:12.269 So we made 100 of these small-scale, 104 00:06:12.830 --> 00:06:14.311 small home solar panels, 105 00:06:14.411 --> 00:06:15.072 batteries, 106 00:06:15.612 --> 00:06:16.613 with a kind of little... 107 00:06:17.073 --> 00:06:18.154 You text your payment, 108 00:06:18.155 --> 00:06:19.295 you get the code back, 109 00:06:19.296 --> 00:06:20.256 you type it into the box, 110 00:06:20.336 --> 00:06:22.218 and then it would work for a week or a month, 111 00:06:22.278 --> 00:06:24.440 depending on how much you paid. 112 00:06:25.200 --> 00:06:25.461 And so... 113 00:06:26.293 --> 00:06:27.193 This just became, 114 00:06:27.574 --> 00:06:29.214 I just love the kind of design, 115 00:06:29.294 --> 00:06:32.276 the like seeing the real impact, 116 00:06:32.336 --> 00:06:37.078 seeing what this could do to people that were living without grid access, 117 00:06:37.318 --> 00:06:38.679 using kerosene lamps typically. 118 00:06:38.899 --> 00:06:40.360 We saw the impact that could have, 119 00:06:40.460 --> 00:06:48.864 and that became far more interesting to me than designing like the next iteration of a mobile phone. 120 00:06:49.724 --> 00:06:50.604 Yeah, 121 00:06:50.605 --> 00:06:51.525 I totally get it. 122 00:06:51.945 --> 00:07:05.573 And that's not very often that I get to meet people who have experience both in developing countries where the need is so for clean energy and for decentralized solution is so urgent. 123 00:07:06.033 --> 00:07:07.174 And also at 124 00:07:07.694 --> 00:07:08.355 European level, 125 00:07:08.615 --> 00:07:08.935 right, 126 00:07:09.195 --> 00:07:11.277 at working in European countries. 127 00:07:11.357 --> 00:07:12.938 And a few years ago, 128 00:07:13.458 --> 00:07:18.141 I worked in Bucanaphaso in Madagascar on demand-side flexibility. 129 00:07:18.761 --> 00:07:20.822 in mini-grid access and nano-grid access. 130 00:07:20.862 --> 00:07:22.063 And that was also so, 131 00:07:22.664 --> 00:07:22.904 you know, 132 00:07:23.184 --> 00:07:29.669 kind of enlightening to see how much these solutions could have like such an impact so quickly, 133 00:07:29.869 --> 00:07:30.129 right? 134 00:07:30.469 --> 00:07:31.230 But at the same time, 135 00:07:31.250 --> 00:07:32.530 it really requires to, 136 00:07:33.311 --> 00:07:33.451 yeah, 137 00:07:33.471 --> 00:07:36.133 a lot of monitoring because it's not like, 138 00:07:36.693 --> 00:07:36.954 I mean, 139 00:07:37.354 --> 00:07:37.854 in Europe, 140 00:07:37.855 --> 00:07:41.617 we are kind of used to our big fat energy systems. 141 00:07:42.257 --> 00:07:44.298 that are very much like, 142 00:07:44.318 --> 00:07:44.598 you know, 143 00:07:44.858 --> 00:07:46.458 seeming ships or something like that. 144 00:07:46.518 --> 00:07:48.779 They are like kind of immovable. 145 00:07:48.919 --> 00:07:49.079 Well, 146 00:07:49.519 --> 00:07:50.999 sometimes there is an iceberg, 147 00:07:51.080 --> 00:07:52.280 like one is coming, 148 00:07:53.260 --> 00:07:54.841 but usually they are very, 149 00:07:54.921 --> 00:07:56.121 very steady and so on. 150 00:07:56.421 --> 00:07:57.841 And so, 151 00:07:57.861 --> 00:07:58.121 you know, 152 00:07:58.382 --> 00:08:01.202 the approach there is completely different. 153 00:08:01.983 --> 00:08:06.204 It's something that really needs to kind of start from scratch. 154 00:08:06.224 --> 00:08:07.624 So we also need, 155 00:08:08.144 --> 00:08:09.985 as someone coming from the outside, 156 00:08:09.986 --> 00:08:10.405 We need to 157 00:08:10.785 --> 00:08:17.927 to learn from the local experience to see how that will fit and really adapt to the local context. 158 00:08:17.928 --> 00:08:19.767 So there were probably things, 159 00:08:20.228 --> 00:08:20.868 on my side, 160 00:08:21.068 --> 00:08:23.929 there were so many things I had to learn and learn, 161 00:08:23.989 --> 00:08:26.109 but I'm sure you also had some. 162 00:08:26.149 --> 00:08:30.830 So can you tell us a little bit more about your experience in Kenya and Rwanda for this? 163 00:08:30.870 --> 00:08:31.391 Yeah, 164 00:08:31.392 --> 00:08:31.671 I mean, 165 00:08:33.871 --> 00:08:35.872 we learned so many things, 166 00:08:35.892 --> 00:08:36.532 of course. 167 00:08:36.832 --> 00:08:37.252 I think, 168 00:08:38.272 --> 00:08:40.273 kind of touching on what you were first saying there. 169 00:08:41.521 --> 00:08:42.141 One thing we learned, 170 00:08:42.142 --> 00:08:43.882 so at Equinox as a student, 171 00:08:43.883 --> 00:08:46.544 we built a hundred of these pay-as-you-go solar products. 172 00:08:46.564 --> 00:08:48.725 And then that morphed into a, 173 00:08:49.626 --> 00:08:53.448 I joined a startup called Bbox to build these kind of commercially. 174 00:08:54.068 --> 00:09:01.312 And I think one interesting thing that came out of that was pushing to do more than lights and phone charging. 175 00:09:03.893 --> 00:09:06.935 Can we fulfill the demand to have radios, 176 00:09:07.035 --> 00:09:07.856 TVs, 177 00:09:08.196 --> 00:09:09.056 this sort of thing? 178 00:09:11.061 --> 00:09:15.945 The obvious solution would be to just kind of go and buy a cheap normal TV, 179 00:09:16.586 --> 00:09:20.108 try and sell that alongside a solar panel and a battery. 180 00:09:20.569 --> 00:09:21.490 But if you do that, 181 00:09:21.830 --> 00:09:28.215 because the TV is kind of AC powered and optimized for low cost rather than high efficiency, 182 00:09:29.416 --> 00:09:35.221 it means you need a really big battery and solar panel to power it. 183 00:09:35.605 --> 00:09:38.426 So kind of touching on your thing about rethinking systems, 184 00:09:38.446 --> 00:09:41.047 we tried to rethink the whole system here and be like, 185 00:09:41.468 --> 00:09:45.089 what if we optimize the TV to be really low power? 186 00:09:45.549 --> 00:09:46.009 And actually, 187 00:09:46.010 --> 00:09:50.611 we took a lot of technology that was used from like caravans and camper vans, 188 00:09:50.612 --> 00:09:51.012 12-volt 189 00:09:52.012 --> 00:09:54.033 TVs, really low power, 190 00:09:54.553 --> 00:09:55.954 designed for low power. 191 00:09:56.514 --> 00:09:57.134 If you do that, 192 00:09:57.154 --> 00:10:03.417 you can really bring down the size of the solar panel and the battery you need and bring down ultimately the overall cost. 193 00:10:04.064 --> 00:10:04.845 of the system. 194 00:10:05.445 --> 00:10:07.467 So one thing we learned there is like, 195 00:10:08.107 --> 00:10:12.131 think through the entire system of what we're building, 196 00:10:12.371 --> 00:10:17.575 not just trying to kind of replicate what exists in other markets. 197 00:10:17.595 --> 00:10:19.717 So grid is the obvious example, 198 00:10:19.737 --> 00:10:22.079 but then even down to the appliances, 199 00:10:22.119 --> 00:10:24.100 let's not just use appliances that exist. 200 00:10:24.160 --> 00:10:30.205 Let's think of a new kind of energy system here that is optimized to be low power. 201 00:10:30.245 --> 00:10:30.366 So 202 00:10:31.106 --> 00:10:33.048 I know this is primarily an audio. 203 00:10:34.280 --> 00:10:53.830 uh thing but for anyone behind me you can see this is the small battery of bbox with the small solar panel about the size of a laptop but a bit thicker um like this can power tvs radios mobile phones lots of lights like not just really low low energy things so you can do a lot more if you think through the the systems yeah 204 00:10:54.630 --> 00:10:57.512 and yeah i mean bbox uh as a company we 205 00:10:58.244 --> 00:10:59.065 Designed the products, 206 00:10:59.085 --> 00:11:00.145 we manufactured the products, 207 00:11:00.165 --> 00:11:07.351 but we also had the distribution networks in all of the countries that we worked in 14 when I left, 208 00:11:07.471 --> 00:11:08.431 if I remember correctly, 209 00:11:08.491 --> 00:11:09.652 14 different markets. 210 00:11:11.814 --> 00:11:12.254 And again, 211 00:11:12.654 --> 00:11:14.656 like thinking through that entire system, 212 00:11:14.796 --> 00:11:18.518 being able to build a kind of software platform that powers all of that, 213 00:11:19.079 --> 00:11:26.024 that was kind of some of the big advantage we had to do and deliver this cheaply was by... 214 00:11:26.500 --> 00:11:28.761 Thinking through that entire end-to-end experience, 215 00:11:29.201 --> 00:11:31.421 circularity being a big part of it, 216 00:11:32.062 --> 00:11:36.123 these lithium batteries were quite expensive then. 217 00:11:36.823 --> 00:11:41.304 And so we used lead-acid batteries in the first generation of this product. 218 00:11:41.804 --> 00:11:44.065 And lead-acid batteries can be recycled quite well. 219 00:11:44.665 --> 00:11:49.386 And so by having a kind of circular supply chain, 220 00:11:49.446 --> 00:11:51.447 we could take back those lead-acid batteries, 221 00:11:51.967 --> 00:11:52.727 recycle them, 222 00:11:53.227 --> 00:11:56.048 capture most of the value or most of the cost that we spent on. 223 00:11:56.428 --> 00:12:02.052 on buying that battery back at the end of life and then kind of redeploy it lots of times. 224 00:12:02.053 --> 00:12:09.518 So those are really interesting kind of like circularity lessons that we struggle with in markets like the 225 00:12:10.218 --> 00:12:14.761 UK, but was just inherent to making the model work low cost for Bbox. 226 00:12:16.062 --> 00:12:17.043 That's so interesting. 227 00:12:17.063 --> 00:12:17.303 I mean, 228 00:12:17.323 --> 00:12:19.605 the fact that you think about the circularity, 229 00:12:20.125 --> 00:12:23.228 you really embed the product within a bigger system, 230 00:12:23.368 --> 00:12:23.568 right? 231 00:12:24.188 --> 00:12:29.931 And I think it's pretty rare that people working in this kind of development and 232 00:12:30.331 --> 00:12:34.893 IT are embracing so much this dimension, 233 00:12:35.073 --> 00:12:35.293 right? 234 00:12:35.713 --> 00:12:40.095 The question of the repurposing of the solar panels, 235 00:12:40.096 --> 00:12:45.598 the question of the repurposing or what you do with the battery afterwards always comes back. 236 00:12:45.778 --> 00:12:47.179 And it seems to be like, 237 00:12:47.299 --> 00:12:47.539 you know, 238 00:12:47.919 --> 00:12:49.720 like this never ending conversation. 239 00:12:50.264 --> 00:12:53.225 The problem is that these batteries end up in nature and so on. 240 00:12:53.226 --> 00:12:54.005 And so what do we do? 241 00:12:54.625 --> 00:12:54.745 So, 242 00:12:54.985 --> 00:12:55.245 you know, 243 00:12:55.546 --> 00:12:59.487 the fact that you had really thought it through and thought about, 244 00:13:00.067 --> 00:13:00.227 really, 245 00:13:00.307 --> 00:13:00.867 that makes you, 246 00:13:01.287 --> 00:13:05.468 like position you somewhere very particular place in the supply chain itself, 247 00:13:05.528 --> 00:13:05.788 right? 248 00:13:05.849 --> 00:13:09.790 Because you're both your supplier and the developer. 249 00:13:10.050 --> 00:13:12.370 And so that makes it really surprising. 250 00:13:12.730 --> 00:13:15.831 So you really have something around traceability, 251 00:13:16.011 --> 00:13:16.291 right? 252 00:13:17.112 --> 00:13:18.092 it's naturally it's not 253 00:13:18.172 --> 00:13:19.673 Like the batteries, 254 00:13:19.733 --> 00:13:22.874 you were interested in traceability. 255 00:13:22.934 --> 00:13:27.276 You also have an experience with gems and diamonds, 256 00:13:27.476 --> 00:13:27.636 right? 257 00:13:27.656 --> 00:13:28.316 Diamond mining. 258 00:13:29.757 --> 00:13:30.537 I can explain. 259 00:13:30.617 --> 00:13:32.958 The jump is not obvious. 260 00:13:33.198 --> 00:13:34.099 But yeah, 261 00:13:34.259 --> 00:13:38.661 I got really interested towards the kind of end of my time at e-book, 262 00:13:38.721 --> 00:13:39.901 spending a lot of time in 263 00:13:40.601 --> 00:13:42.682 Rwanda. I remember it was a particular trip. 264 00:13:42.782 --> 00:13:46.784 I was sat with one of the team from Rwanda. 265 00:13:47.416 --> 00:13:51.698 And he was telling me about his family and what his family do for a living. 266 00:13:51.718 --> 00:13:54.480 And he was talking about small-scale mining. 267 00:13:54.820 --> 00:13:56.681 And in electronics, 268 00:13:57.001 --> 00:13:59.723 there are these things called tantalum capacitors, 269 00:14:00.883 --> 00:14:04.085 a certain type of device. 270 00:14:04.505 --> 00:14:05.966 And basically, 271 00:14:06.006 --> 00:14:09.168 his family were kind of mining a very small scale, 272 00:14:09.628 --> 00:14:12.269 the metals and minerals that go into that. 273 00:14:12.950 --> 00:14:16.892 And then we were looking at the future of the clean energy transition with... 274 00:14:17.928 --> 00:14:20.830 This was when Teslas very early were just taking off, 275 00:14:20.890 --> 00:14:21.131 right? 276 00:14:21.211 --> 00:14:23.052 Electric vehicles were going to be a big thing. 277 00:14:23.672 --> 00:14:27.956 And there's a lot of metals and minerals that go into batteries, 278 00:14:27.957 --> 00:14:29.957 a lot of which for the Tesla 279 00:14:30.357 --> 00:14:31.618 NMC batteries particularly, 280 00:14:32.459 --> 00:14:37.002 were coming from that border between Rwanda and Congo. 281 00:14:37.142 --> 00:14:40.885 So we're spending a lot of time and a lot of focus of our work. 282 00:14:40.886 --> 00:14:44.147 We also had operations in DRC as well. 283 00:14:45.636 --> 00:14:46.877 And so I got really interested in like, 284 00:14:46.937 --> 00:14:51.859 how is this clean energy transition going to change the kind of the metals and minerals that we need to mine? 285 00:14:51.879 --> 00:14:56.502 And how do we do that in a fair and traceable way? 286 00:14:57.302 --> 00:14:58.523 I started to get interested in that. 287 00:14:58.563 --> 00:15:02.305 And then I went for a coffee with a friend about a completely unrelated topic. 288 00:15:02.905 --> 00:15:07.888 And he told me that he knew someone that was looking for help to start. 289 00:15:09.207 --> 00:15:11.949 traceability mining business. 290 00:15:12.589 --> 00:15:15.091 It was a corporate startup, 291 00:15:15.092 --> 00:15:16.292 a corporate kind of spin out, 292 00:15:16.912 --> 00:15:18.073 and it was called Genfer. 293 00:15:18.213 --> 00:15:24.277 And the idea was to sit as part of Anglo-American and Tabeer's group, 294 00:15:25.158 --> 00:15:28.620 start by mining diamonds, 295 00:15:30.041 --> 00:15:32.543 and then move on to mining gold, 296 00:15:32.923 --> 00:15:33.444 cobalt, 297 00:15:33.724 --> 00:15:36.806 all the other things that go into electronics. 298 00:15:37.466 --> 00:15:38.547 The reason we started with... 299 00:15:38.627 --> 00:15:55.461 diamonds specifically is because most of the other things i mentioned yeah smelted at some point in the process mixed together melted down it's that's quite a hard traceability challenge but diamonds are kind of mined in a similar way but 300 00:15:55.462 --> 00:16:06.711 they don't get smelted they get kind of cut up and you can prove out traceability much much more easily to start with so i ended up yeah working on a thing called Gemfair. 301 00:16:07.183 --> 00:16:08.264 which is super exciting, 302 00:16:08.724 --> 00:16:13.188 working on small-scale mine sites in northeastern Sierra, 303 00:16:13.668 --> 00:16:14.169 Sierra de O. 304 00:16:15.570 --> 00:16:19.273 And we were going to small-scale mine sites, 305 00:16:20.534 --> 00:16:27.520 kind of doing training and things around environmental processes and all of this sort of thing. 306 00:16:28.220 --> 00:16:32.944 And then kind of auditing that those things were actually happening. 307 00:16:33.084 --> 00:16:33.705 if they were, 308 00:16:34.205 --> 00:16:35.406 if that mindset was 309 00:16:36.527 --> 00:16:38.948 fair and ethical and safe and all of those things, 310 00:16:39.628 --> 00:16:49.053 then we would buy those diamonds from the mine site and then skip all of the normal middle layers that happen in the diamond supply chain. 311 00:16:49.633 --> 00:16:54.475 So we can capture far more of the kind of value for the miner, 312 00:16:54.595 --> 00:16:56.036 give them a much better price, 313 00:16:56.336 --> 00:17:02.718 and then sell it direct to on the kind of larger diamond miner without all of those layers in the middle. 314 00:17:04.151 --> 00:17:05.312 So that was super exciting. 315 00:17:05.452 --> 00:17:08.874 I think it sounded really easy at the start, 316 00:17:08.914 --> 00:17:10.415 turned out to be quite hard, 317 00:17:10.696 --> 00:17:10.896 but 318 00:17:11.816 --> 00:17:12.817 Gemfair still exists, 319 00:17:12.818 --> 00:17:15.479 doing great things in the diamond space. 320 00:17:15.559 --> 00:17:16.339 I'm not sure yet, 321 00:17:16.459 --> 00:17:17.380 but I know when I left, 322 00:17:17.381 --> 00:17:21.503 we hadn't quite made it out to the other things I was more interested in, 323 00:17:22.223 --> 00:17:22.884 the gold, 324 00:17:22.944 --> 00:17:24.025 the cobalt, 325 00:17:24.165 --> 00:17:26.686 the other metals and minerals. 326 00:17:26.746 --> 00:17:30.269 But I know there is lots of great stuff happening in that space. 327 00:17:31.009 --> 00:17:31.269 Anyway, 328 00:17:31.330 --> 00:17:33.371 some people from Dbox are actually involved in that. 329 00:17:33.991 --> 00:17:35.212 now in a separate startup. 330 00:17:35.992 --> 00:17:36.492 That's great. 331 00:17:36.613 --> 00:17:39.494 And we're getting closer to what Windfall is, 332 00:17:39.574 --> 00:17:40.195 but between 333 00:17:40.655 --> 00:17:42.356 Windfall and TempFare, 334 00:17:42.676 --> 00:17:50.900 you also worked on making a non-premium electric vehicle something really achievable, 335 00:17:50.920 --> 00:17:51.581 affordable, 336 00:17:51.641 --> 00:17:54.903 like something people could really want. 337 00:17:54.963 --> 00:17:55.083 So, 338 00:17:55.923 --> 00:17:56.203 I mean, 339 00:17:56.704 --> 00:18:02.267 where does this instinct really to work on the corners of the energy transition come from? 340 00:18:02.927 --> 00:18:04.128 That's really fascinating. 341 00:18:04.129 --> 00:18:04.368 You know, 342 00:18:04.788 --> 00:18:06.089 when you were talking, 343 00:18:06.090 --> 00:18:06.730 I was thinking, 344 00:18:06.830 --> 00:18:07.090 I mean, 345 00:18:07.830 --> 00:18:08.351 who is he? 346 00:18:08.511 --> 00:18:09.211 Who is this guy? 347 00:18:09.371 --> 00:18:10.872 He's a serial entrepreneur. 348 00:18:11.373 --> 00:18:17.757 Is he a bit like Indiana Jones looking for a treasure in the middle of the jungle or something? 349 00:18:18.077 --> 00:18:19.458 But he has a British accent, 350 00:18:19.459 --> 00:18:20.579 so he might be James Bond. 351 00:18:20.899 --> 00:18:21.920 So I don't know. 352 00:18:22.080 --> 00:18:22.500 Tell me. 353 00:18:24.321 --> 00:18:25.422 Where does this come from? 354 00:18:27.363 --> 00:18:27.683 Honestly, 355 00:18:27.743 --> 00:18:28.423 I don't really know. 356 00:18:28.583 --> 00:18:30.484 I look back on my career and think like, 357 00:18:30.524 --> 00:18:31.024 I don't really, 358 00:18:31.064 --> 00:18:32.364 there was never really a plan. 359 00:18:32.585 --> 00:18:35.425 Like a lot of these jumps to different areas have been, 360 00:18:36.426 --> 00:18:36.626 like 361 00:18:36.966 --> 00:18:38.166 I mentioned with one of them, 362 00:18:39.386 --> 00:18:41.287 going for a coffee with a friend. 363 00:18:41.367 --> 00:18:41.527 Like, 364 00:18:42.087 --> 00:18:43.248 I think it's probably, 365 00:18:43.728 --> 00:18:46.088 my partner always says I ask a lot of questions. 366 00:18:47.309 --> 00:18:51.110 I'm just really curious to learn lots of things. 367 00:18:51.190 --> 00:18:51.490 And so 368 00:18:52.230 --> 00:18:52.890 I think it's that, 369 00:18:52.930 --> 00:18:54.291 just like really wanting to, 370 00:18:54.851 --> 00:18:55.031 like, 371 00:18:55.091 --> 00:18:55.531 sang it. 372 00:18:55.791 --> 00:19:15.164 sat in a car chatting with this guy about mining it just like opened my eyes to to this whole world that i didn't didn't know about and then got perhaps a little bit obsessive um about it but yeah like ev energy is the the one you mentioned uh the next thing the ev charging one similarly 373 00:19:15.244 --> 00:19:22.690 again i don't think it was a planned intentional move into the ev space obviously i was interested in electric cars. 374 00:19:22.790 --> 00:19:24.551 They were starting to become a thing. 375 00:19:25.247 --> 00:19:27.989 Really don't need Tesla and Nissan Leaf at the time. 376 00:19:28.530 --> 00:19:30.271 But started to see them, 377 00:19:30.351 --> 00:19:33.814 started to drive some occasionally. 378 00:19:34.475 --> 00:19:35.676 I thought it was just, 379 00:19:35.677 --> 00:19:38.638 it felt like that was going to be an interesting area. 380 00:19:39.179 --> 00:19:46.384 And then happened to chat to another friend who happened to be working in that area and joined early on in that journey. 381 00:19:46.785 --> 00:19:47.045 But yeah, 382 00:19:47.065 --> 00:19:48.306 to tell you what that was, 383 00:19:48.346 --> 00:19:51.969 it was thinking that we have two things happening. 384 00:19:52.389 --> 00:19:52.890 EVs. 385 00:19:54.683 --> 00:20:00.149 Growing in numbers on the road and an energy transition on the grid. 386 00:20:00.270 --> 00:20:03.373 So more and more renewables happening. 387 00:20:04.815 --> 00:20:08.459 Cars don't have to charge exactly when you plug them in, 388 00:20:08.579 --> 00:20:08.839 right? 389 00:20:08.859 --> 00:20:10.201 You have some flexibility. 390 00:20:10.401 --> 00:20:11.783 You can wait to charge. 391 00:20:12.427 --> 00:20:32.501 later in the night or even like in a few days time because you don't normally need to fully charge your your your car every night unless you're driving an extreme amount which most people aren't and renewables are kind of intermittent and so what if we can just make those things work well together 392 00:20:32.841 --> 00:20:41.527 change when and how a car charges to suit when renewables are most abundant so i joined a company called ev energy day. 393 00:20:41.971 --> 00:20:43.211 I can't remember exactly. 394 00:20:43.231 --> 00:20:48.773 It was less than 10 people in the company then to bring some of the experience from 395 00:20:49.593 --> 00:20:51.394 Ebox to them. 396 00:20:52.454 --> 00:20:56.415 And the idea was let's build a platform that connects all of the cars, 397 00:20:56.795 --> 00:21:00.596 all of the charges together into one platform and on the other side of that, 398 00:21:00.656 --> 00:21:02.857 connect it to the energy system. 399 00:21:02.937 --> 00:21:04.337 So having connected, 400 00:21:04.857 --> 00:21:05.297 as you said, 401 00:21:05.437 --> 00:21:07.698 nearly a million batteries across 402 00:21:08.438 --> 00:21:09.138 Rwanda, Kenya, 403 00:21:09.258 --> 00:21:09.638 Uganda, 404 00:21:09.659 --> 00:21:11.239 we thought we can definitely connect. 405 00:21:11.839 --> 00:21:12.259 Yeah, 406 00:21:12.260 --> 00:21:12.619 it looks easy. 407 00:21:12.620 --> 00:21:14.720 Cars and chargers across the UK. 408 00:21:15.641 --> 00:21:15.901 Again, 409 00:21:16.001 --> 00:21:19.662 always turns out not to be quite as simple as we thought. 410 00:21:19.663 --> 00:21:19.983 But yeah, 411 00:21:20.003 --> 00:21:22.404 that platform grew and grew. 412 00:21:22.564 --> 00:21:23.164 And now 413 00:21:24.164 --> 00:21:30.407 EV energy is powering a big chunk of the kind of charging programs across the United States. 414 00:21:30.408 --> 00:21:31.728 So if you have an EV in, 415 00:21:31.868 --> 00:21:32.028 say, 416 00:21:32.288 --> 00:21:32.768 New York, 417 00:21:33.388 --> 00:21:35.429 and you want to get cheaper charging for your car, 418 00:21:35.930 --> 00:21:39.031 you connect it with their smart charge program. 419 00:21:39.791 --> 00:21:45.235 And EV Energy optimizes when that car charges to suit the lower cost time. 420 00:21:45.295 --> 00:21:46.156 So we connected, 421 00:21:46.176 --> 00:21:46.316 yeah, 422 00:21:46.416 --> 00:21:49.298 hundreds of thousands of cars into programs there. 423 00:21:50.379 --> 00:21:50.699 So cool. 424 00:21:50.859 --> 00:21:51.139 I mean, 425 00:21:52.220 --> 00:21:52.960 so practical. 426 00:21:53.060 --> 00:21:59.365 And it really feeds into the vehicle to grid conversation that we had a couple of years ago, 427 00:21:59.525 --> 00:21:59.865 I think, 428 00:21:59.925 --> 00:22:01.526 now on the podcast. 429 00:22:02.567 --> 00:22:02.767 But, 430 00:22:02.907 --> 00:22:03.168 I mean, 431 00:22:03.228 --> 00:22:07.471 you started working with battery then and you brought them to the home. 432 00:22:07.551 --> 00:22:08.051 Thank you. 433 00:22:08.131 --> 00:22:08.851 Behind you, 434 00:22:09.072 --> 00:22:12.633 we see one of the windfall batteries. 435 00:22:12.874 --> 00:22:14.795 Can you show it with your hands, 436 00:22:14.875 --> 00:22:15.215 please? 437 00:22:15.235 --> 00:22:15.315 Oh, 438 00:22:15.316 --> 00:22:15.835 sure. 439 00:22:15.836 --> 00:22:18.056 I love that. 440 00:22:18.397 --> 00:22:18.557 Yeah, 441 00:22:19.117 --> 00:22:19.577 it's here. 442 00:22:19.817 --> 00:22:21.798 So it is designed to look good. 443 00:22:22.139 --> 00:22:24.380 I haven't seen it in person, 444 00:22:24.520 --> 00:22:25.220 but it really, 445 00:22:25.660 --> 00:22:27.822 from what I've seen also on your website and so on, 446 00:22:27.882 --> 00:22:29.463 it looks really nice. 447 00:22:29.963 --> 00:22:32.524 It's 2.5 kilowatt hour. 448 00:22:32.864 --> 00:22:33.485 It's plug-in. 449 00:22:34.345 --> 00:22:37.587 You've described wanting it to feel like ordering. 450 00:22:37.787 --> 00:22:40.850 a printer and delivered overnight, 451 00:22:41.370 --> 00:22:42.051 you plug it in, 452 00:22:42.511 --> 00:22:43.012 it works. 453 00:22:43.773 --> 00:22:46.715 So tell me a little bit more about where this, 454 00:22:47.096 --> 00:22:48.217 where the idea comes from. 455 00:22:48.757 --> 00:22:48.937 Again, 456 00:22:49.078 --> 00:22:49.218 well, 457 00:22:49.398 --> 00:22:51.420 now we have an idea where the idea comes from, 458 00:22:51.480 --> 00:22:58.567 but really what kind of constraints did you want to play around to make it kind of mainstream? 459 00:22:59.307 --> 00:23:00.168 Of course. 460 00:23:00.169 --> 00:23:00.288 So 461 00:23:01.429 --> 00:23:03.111 I guess the backstory is 462 00:23:04.467 --> 00:23:04.927 EV Energy, 463 00:23:04.947 --> 00:23:05.648 we just talked about, 464 00:23:05.668 --> 00:23:07.248 I was there for five years, 465 00:23:07.328 --> 00:23:09.109 decided I wanted to do something new. 466 00:23:09.469 --> 00:23:10.870 I hadn't decided what yet. 467 00:23:11.830 --> 00:23:12.590 Had some ideas, 468 00:23:12.851 --> 00:23:14.651 went on a long road trip around Europe, 469 00:23:15.031 --> 00:23:16.112 thought about those ideas, 470 00:23:16.452 --> 00:23:19.133 decided they weren't great ideas. 471 00:23:19.173 --> 00:23:20.194 So put those on pause. 472 00:23:20.754 --> 00:23:21.554 But again, 473 00:23:21.994 --> 00:23:22.474 going out, 474 00:23:22.535 --> 00:23:23.375 speaking with people, 475 00:23:23.415 --> 00:23:25.976 I ended up chatting with a guy called Rob, 476 00:23:26.656 --> 00:23:27.637 who is now my co-founder. 477 00:23:28.297 --> 00:23:33.119 And I was presenting at an event about the work I had done at EV Energy. 478 00:23:33.903 --> 00:23:38.707 And more generally talking about how connected devices, 479 00:23:38.747 --> 00:23:42.230 internet connected devices can transform the energy system. 480 00:23:43.091 --> 00:23:45.012 And he kind of challenged me afterwards. 481 00:23:45.013 --> 00:23:49.216 And there was a small group of people around how this is very true. 482 00:23:49.236 --> 00:23:50.397 We can connect cars, 483 00:23:50.398 --> 00:23:51.618 we can connect heat pumps, 484 00:23:51.678 --> 00:23:52.078 batteries, 485 00:23:52.138 --> 00:23:52.939 these sorts of things. 486 00:23:53.459 --> 00:23:53.1000 But actually, 487 00:23:54.001 --> 00:23:55.841 in this small group that we were discussing in, 488 00:23:56.402 --> 00:24:01.446 it wouldn't work for any of us because we all lived in and around London, 489 00:24:01.726 --> 00:24:03.087 either in flats. 490 00:24:03.911 --> 00:24:04.971 or rental homes, 491 00:24:05.532 --> 00:24:07.272 or smaller terraced homes. 492 00:24:07.773 --> 00:24:10.354 And this group was only a small group. 493 00:24:10.414 --> 00:24:13.215 But then I started to think about my mum. 494 00:24:13.335 --> 00:24:17.997 She has a small terraced home outside of London with not very much roof space at all. 495 00:24:18.297 --> 00:24:20.018 I've tried to convince her to get solo before, 496 00:24:20.019 --> 00:24:21.999 and it just doesn't work. 497 00:24:22.899 --> 00:24:23.439 My sister, 498 00:24:23.499 --> 00:24:24.940 she rents a house. 499 00:24:25.980 --> 00:24:27.081 I just thought more and more, 500 00:24:27.761 --> 00:24:29.682 there is a big missing, 501 00:24:30.182 --> 00:24:32.643 kind of ignored... 502 00:24:34.007 --> 00:24:50.240 set of the population that can't actually do anything and my intuition was that actually that that set of the population is probably quite determined to do something about climate change um don't have any hard facts on that but it felt felt 503 00:24:50.260 --> 00:25:02.991 kind of felt kind of right and so rob and i decided that we should do something about that and did some more research found out as you said that it's over 50 of homes in in the uk Bye. 504 00:25:03.772 --> 00:25:04.893 and in Europe. 505 00:25:06.155 --> 00:25:09.240 And we didn't have a clear idea of what we wanted to do yet. 506 00:25:09.340 --> 00:25:10.862 We didn't know what the solution was. 507 00:25:11.885 --> 00:25:15.526 We did a few interesting experiments with energy flexibility. 508 00:25:15.726 --> 00:25:19.407 Can we use more energy when it's abundant, 509 00:25:19.427 --> 00:25:20.867 when renewable energy is abundant? 510 00:25:21.688 --> 00:25:24.228 Tried to control things like dehumidifiers, 511 00:25:24.268 --> 00:25:25.509 heated clothes airers, 512 00:25:26.529 --> 00:25:27.449 loads of other things, 513 00:25:28.129 --> 00:25:31.510 electric wheelchairs and mobility chairs, 514 00:25:31.530 --> 00:25:32.050 things like that. 515 00:25:33.251 --> 00:25:34.851 And it was really interesting. 516 00:25:34.951 --> 00:25:35.912 We learned a lot from that. 517 00:25:36.132 --> 00:25:36.592 But really, 518 00:25:36.612 --> 00:25:37.892 we found that alone, 519 00:25:37.912 --> 00:25:41.213 those things don't have a big impact on builds. 520 00:25:41.713 --> 00:25:43.474 And so to have a big impact on bills, 521 00:25:43.475 --> 00:25:46.015 you need to affect everything in the home. 522 00:25:46.955 --> 00:25:52.838 And some people in our experiment were adding batteries into the experiment and saying, 523 00:25:52.858 --> 00:25:58.841 can I store up power in batteries when it's clean and cheap and use it at a later time? 524 00:25:59.541 --> 00:25:59.661 Yeah. 525 00:26:00.501 --> 00:26:02.422 So that was the kind of crux of the idea. 526 00:26:02.602 --> 00:26:04.503 And those batteries in that trial, 527 00:26:04.583 --> 00:26:05.564 people were using like, 528 00:26:05.984 --> 00:26:07.405 I call them camping batteries, 529 00:26:07.505 --> 00:26:08.145 these big. 530 00:26:08.893 --> 00:26:10.354 designed to be moved around, 531 00:26:10.414 --> 00:26:11.134 take camping, 532 00:26:11.174 --> 00:26:12.094 charge up your stuff, 533 00:26:12.735 --> 00:26:14.155 these big rugged things. 534 00:26:14.695 --> 00:26:15.196 And we thought, 535 00:26:15.596 --> 00:26:15.776 like, 536 00:26:15.816 --> 00:26:18.917 this is fundamentally here a good idea. 537 00:26:19.778 --> 00:26:20.318 But we just, 538 00:26:21.298 --> 00:26:22.959 it's quite hard to make it work. 539 00:26:23.019 --> 00:26:24.820 And we need to make it much easier. 540 00:26:24.940 --> 00:26:27.401 We need to make it something people want. 541 00:26:27.501 --> 00:26:30.842 We need to make it work in all types of homes. 542 00:26:31.462 --> 00:26:33.924 And so myself, 543 00:26:34.064 --> 00:26:34.364 Rob, 544 00:26:34.404 --> 00:26:36.865 and then our designer, 545 00:26:36.885 --> 00:26:37.165 Ben. 546 00:26:37.585 --> 00:26:43.588 Spent a long time thinking about what are all the challenges that will stop people getting batteries in their homes. 547 00:26:43.608 --> 00:26:45.889 So we ordered a bunch to my house. 548 00:26:45.909 --> 00:26:49.650 We drove to Germany to pick up some from the balcony solar kind of side, 549 00:26:49.950 --> 00:26:50.591 brought them back. 550 00:26:51.791 --> 00:26:52.892 My flat is a bit cleaner now, 551 00:26:52.932 --> 00:26:54.872 but at one point it was full of test batteries. 552 00:26:55.433 --> 00:26:57.293 And there were so many issues we came across. 553 00:26:57.373 --> 00:27:05.517 So one got delivered on a massive lorry truck thing on a crate at the bottom of my flat. 554 00:27:06.525 --> 00:27:09.327 It was 45 kilos for a two and a half kilowatt hour battery. 555 00:27:10.188 --> 00:27:12.470 And the delivery driver was like, 556 00:27:12.810 --> 00:27:14.632 I'm only paid to deliver it downstairs. 557 00:27:15.973 --> 00:27:17.794 You've got to work out how to get it upstairs. 558 00:27:18.555 --> 00:27:18.855 Okay. 559 00:27:19.556 --> 00:27:20.817 I got it upstairs eventually, 560 00:27:20.857 --> 00:27:23.299 but I was sore the next day. 561 00:27:23.419 --> 00:27:23.879 I ached. 562 00:27:23.979 --> 00:27:24.400 Yeah. 563 00:27:24.401 --> 00:27:25.400 We need to go to the gym. 564 00:27:26.341 --> 00:27:26.962 Exactly. 565 00:27:27.822 --> 00:27:29.143 And then once they were in the flat, 566 00:27:30.044 --> 00:27:31.726 so many of them were really loud, 567 00:27:31.886 --> 00:27:32.927 lots of fans. 568 00:27:32.947 --> 00:27:35.649 A lot of them had bright blue lights on them. 569 00:27:36.093 --> 00:27:38.775 that make this room look a bit wild. 570 00:27:39.235 --> 00:27:39.395 Yeah, 571 00:27:39.396 --> 00:27:39.995 like a disco. 572 00:27:40.796 --> 00:27:41.016 Yeah, 573 00:27:41.376 --> 00:27:42.117 just flashing, 574 00:27:42.137 --> 00:27:42.197 oh, 575 00:27:42.198 --> 00:27:42.977 it's so bright. 576 00:27:43.657 --> 00:27:44.318 And all these things, 577 00:27:44.319 --> 00:27:44.818 and we just thought, 578 00:27:44.858 --> 00:27:45.018 like, 579 00:27:45.318 --> 00:27:48.300 these aren't designed to be what they are. 580 00:27:48.400 --> 00:27:50.201 They're not designed to be in people's homes. 581 00:27:50.622 --> 00:27:52.523 They're well designed to be in people's homes. 582 00:27:52.603 --> 00:27:52.783 Like, 583 00:27:54.304 --> 00:27:55.825 I'm really motivated by this idea, 584 00:27:55.885 --> 00:27:58.606 but I didn't want these things in my home. 585 00:27:58.686 --> 00:28:02.909 And so let's just design something that thinks through the end-to-end. 586 00:28:03.597 --> 00:28:07.960 journey makes it easy to deliver to your house makes it something that doesn't wake you up at 587 00:28:08.380 --> 00:28:25.932 2 a.m with a loud fan when it's charging doesn't shine bright lights all over the place and distract people and make it something desirable make it something that people want in their homes now but also in 10 years time because the batteries are going to last a long time we have to last for 588 00:28:25.972 --> 00:28:33.037 10 years as well so yeah we we did a lot of work on the on that kind of design of the object itself. 589 00:28:33.197 --> 00:28:35.678 but the whole service around it. 590 00:28:36.499 --> 00:28:36.819 Yeah, 591 00:28:36.919 --> 00:28:39.841 that's interesting because in a way, 592 00:28:40.441 --> 00:28:42.522 you started with the conversation with iPhones, 593 00:28:42.542 --> 00:28:42.783 you know, 594 00:28:42.823 --> 00:28:49.226 and one of the things that really made a difference with iPhones was the design and, 595 00:28:49.227 --> 00:28:49.446 you know, 596 00:28:49.627 --> 00:28:51.328 iPods and iPhones compared to the, 597 00:28:52.028 --> 00:28:59.492 I remember the USB keys and USB where you could listen to music with the MP3 and stuff like that. 598 00:28:59.592 --> 00:29:00.413 And they were just... 599 00:29:01.097 --> 00:29:02.118 They look just ugly. 600 00:29:02.318 --> 00:29:03.118 And then came 601 00:29:04.139 --> 00:29:08.601 Apple with this kind of shiny new things. 602 00:29:10.162 --> 00:29:14.044 And suddenly it becomes something you want in your home. 603 00:29:14.385 --> 00:29:16.546 And it also becomes a status symbol, 604 00:29:16.906 --> 00:29:17.086 right? 605 00:29:17.146 --> 00:29:20.028 So should battery become a status symbol at one point? 606 00:29:22.429 --> 00:29:23.150 Yeah, 607 00:29:23.151 --> 00:29:23.930 why not? 608 00:29:24.130 --> 00:29:24.570 Why not? 609 00:29:25.031 --> 00:29:26.291 I think people should be... 610 00:29:28.092 --> 00:29:28.753 I think there's a... 611 00:29:29.453 --> 00:29:30.854 That's a really interesting question. 612 00:29:31.334 --> 00:29:36.838 I think there's a thing that was reported in the UK a little while ago, 613 00:29:36.978 --> 00:29:38.338 maybe elsewhere too, 614 00:29:38.579 --> 00:29:47.524 about the spread of clean energy products and attributing it to the heat pump dad. 615 00:29:47.784 --> 00:29:53.127 So someone gets a heat pump and they get really into it, 616 00:29:53.447 --> 00:29:54.648 love looking at the data, 617 00:29:54.728 --> 00:29:56.449 these real early adopters, 618 00:29:57.010 --> 00:29:58.470 and then they go and tell everyone. 619 00:29:59.098 --> 00:30:15.803 about it and then that's how kind of heat pumps have spread but heat pumps have spread i would say fairly slowly because they're very techie and looking at your friends data on a screen probably isn't that interesting but i haven't really thought about this before but maybe our 620 00:30:15.923 --> 00:30:23.265 version of it is like people should be proud that they're using more clean cheap energy saving money on their energy bills, 621 00:30:23.725 --> 00:30:26.526 but also proud of the thing that's in their home. 622 00:30:26.686 --> 00:30:26.806 So. 623 00:30:27.918 --> 00:30:31.681 You should only put things in your home that you love, 624 00:30:31.741 --> 00:30:36.044 objects that you find valuable and interesting. 625 00:30:36.084 --> 00:30:36.364 And so, 626 00:30:36.684 --> 00:30:36.864 yeah, 627 00:30:37.004 --> 00:30:42.268 I kind of hope that people will kind of show these off and tell people about it, 628 00:30:42.269 --> 00:30:49.273 and that will be a large part of how we get more batteries out there and more renewables on the grid. 629 00:30:49.653 --> 00:30:49.893 But yeah, 630 00:30:49.933 --> 00:30:51.134 I haven't really thought about that before. 631 00:30:52.715 --> 00:30:52.915 Yeah, 632 00:30:52.935 --> 00:30:53.155 I know. 633 00:30:53.175 --> 00:30:54.796 I mean, 634 00:30:54.936 --> 00:30:56.698 I think it's really cool that you... 635 00:30:57.534 --> 00:31:02.396 pay so much attention to the look and to the aspect of this thing, 636 00:31:02.516 --> 00:31:02.816 right? 637 00:31:02.856 --> 00:31:03.297 Because, 638 00:31:04.217 --> 00:31:04.457 I mean, 639 00:31:06.158 --> 00:31:08.359 if you can afford new appliances and so on, 640 00:31:08.360 --> 00:31:09.759 you want them to look good. 641 00:31:09.819 --> 00:31:14.421 So if that's the only thing that blocks you from getting a battery in your home, 642 00:31:14.882 --> 00:31:15.762 that would be quite a shame. 643 00:31:15.763 --> 00:31:20.364 So you kind of fix that gap and that's pretty cool. 644 00:31:20.444 --> 00:31:24.206 You even did a limited edition version of the battery, 645 00:31:24.326 --> 00:31:24.566 right? 646 00:31:25.034 --> 00:31:28.235 I will let listeners check your website to see it, 647 00:31:28.335 --> 00:31:30.015 but I think it's a pretty cool thing. 648 00:31:30.135 --> 00:31:32.616 And just practically speaking, 649 00:31:32.836 --> 00:31:32.956 so 650 00:31:33.576 --> 00:31:35.497 2.5 kilowatt hour, 651 00:31:35.737 --> 00:31:40.138 that would make my oven work right in the evening or something. 652 00:31:40.658 --> 00:31:41.479 Yeah. 653 00:31:41.499 --> 00:31:41.659 Yeah. 654 00:31:41.779 --> 00:31:45.940 So I'm going to use UK kind of stats here, 655 00:31:46.380 --> 00:31:48.801 but I imagine it's similar in Italy. 656 00:31:48.881 --> 00:31:53.482 But we've looked at the size for a few different lenses. 657 00:31:53.542 --> 00:31:53.662 So 658 00:31:54.226 --> 00:31:58.769 A flat typically might use something like five kilowatt hours of energy per day. 659 00:31:59.350 --> 00:32:01.251 And so by going at 2.5, 660 00:32:01.311 --> 00:32:07.075 we're not ever intending to kind of run the whole house for multiple days as like a backup battery. 661 00:32:07.676 --> 00:32:14.000 What it's designed to do is be able to charge in the really cheapest time when wind power, 662 00:32:14.180 --> 00:32:17.362 solar power are generating the most excess energy. 663 00:32:17.903 --> 00:32:18.683 The cheapest, 664 00:32:19.184 --> 00:32:22.046 sometimes even negatively priced energy. 665 00:32:22.810 --> 00:32:25.072 So if we can charge it up within two hours, 666 00:32:25.092 --> 00:32:28.174 we can really hit that lowest value in the pricing. 667 00:32:28.694 --> 00:32:29.415 But more importantly, 668 00:32:30.535 --> 00:32:35.379 we can fully discharge that battery to power your home fully during the peak. 669 00:32:35.699 --> 00:32:39.742 So during that early evening peak, 670 00:32:40.002 --> 00:32:42.744 by having only two and a half kilowatt hours of energy in there, 671 00:32:43.184 --> 00:32:45.726 we can discharge that into your oven, 672 00:32:45.746 --> 00:32:46.226 your fridge, 673 00:32:46.246 --> 00:32:46.727 your lights, 674 00:32:46.747 --> 00:32:47.867 whatever it is you're using, 675 00:32:48.888 --> 00:32:51.330 and fully discharge it at the peak of that pricing. 676 00:32:51.646 --> 00:32:54.849 which gives us this really optimized 677 00:32:55.929 --> 00:32:57.290 ROI or savings. 678 00:32:57.971 --> 00:33:03.815 And what's interesting is by designing a two and a half kilowatt hours, 679 00:33:03.816 --> 00:33:06.377 that ROI works in every house. 680 00:33:06.378 --> 00:33:07.498 So if you have a small house, 681 00:33:07.678 --> 00:33:12.942 we hit the lowest point and the highest point and maximize the price delta and the arbitrage. 682 00:33:13.423 --> 00:33:14.464 If you have a bigger house, 683 00:33:15.004 --> 00:33:17.446 we still hit the same delta. 684 00:33:18.322 --> 00:33:21.624 It becomes a lower percentage savings of your overall bills, 685 00:33:21.644 --> 00:33:22.164 of course, 686 00:33:22.324 --> 00:33:26.367 but the ROI is kind of predictable in all homes, 687 00:33:26.827 --> 00:33:29.589 which again is something that I think is important to the design. 688 00:33:31.050 --> 00:33:42.136 Being able to confidently say this is a sub-five-year payback without needing online calculators to look at all your data and process all of that and understand for your house, 689 00:33:42.196 --> 00:33:42.436 actually, 690 00:33:42.456 --> 00:33:44.998 it's going to be longer by being small. 691 00:33:45.258 --> 00:33:48.140 we can kind of predictably say how much it's going to save, 692 00:33:48.741 --> 00:33:50.502 which I think is really important. 693 00:33:51.003 --> 00:33:51.423 It also, 694 00:33:51.823 --> 00:33:52.804 like keeping it small, 695 00:33:52.864 --> 00:33:56.547 allows us to do the plug and play elements. 696 00:33:56.887 --> 00:34:01.151 It allows us to keep it under 30 kilos so we can deliver it easily. 697 00:34:01.912 --> 00:34:02.212 And so 698 00:34:02.772 --> 00:34:06.195 I think we're hitting that perfect sweet spot that makes the kind of, 699 00:34:06.635 --> 00:34:07.656 back to the B-Box stuff, 700 00:34:08.016 --> 00:34:13.621 the whole system design work really well together as one kind of coherent product. 701 00:34:14.302 --> 00:34:14.802 So yeah. 702 00:34:14.842 --> 00:34:32.117 the the shoe and half will power uh kind of half of your half of your daily usage yeah no that's uh yeah that's that's very interesting also because that's you know that kind of fits also with this idea of sufficiency that we need to i 703 00:34:32.118 --> 00:34:33.058 mean we shouldn't design 704 00:34:33.825 --> 00:34:34.745 Things that are too big, 705 00:34:34.845 --> 00:34:35.025 right? 706 00:34:35.045 --> 00:34:36.386 We may not need them. 707 00:34:36.486 --> 00:34:39.927 And as our appliances get more energy efficient, 708 00:34:40.027 --> 00:34:43.208 maybe that's also something we should actually thrive for. 709 00:34:43.288 --> 00:34:46.969 And I presume that it also makes the appliance itself, 710 00:34:47.469 --> 00:34:48.529 let's call it an appliance, 711 00:34:48.549 --> 00:34:49.129 this bedroom. 712 00:34:49.469 --> 00:34:53.090 Maybe tomorrow it's going to be an appliance that you buy kind of anywhere, 713 00:34:53.151 --> 00:34:55.691 but that makes it also more affordable. 714 00:34:56.211 --> 00:35:01.653 And affordability is one of the things you're going to be working quite a lot. 715 00:35:01.953 --> 00:35:02.193 I mean, 716 00:35:02.333 --> 00:35:08.396 I know the UK has just passed a new bill to allow balcony solar. 717 00:35:09.036 --> 00:35:12.778 That's one of the reasons why we connected in the first place, 718 00:35:12.878 --> 00:35:13.138 right? 719 00:35:13.278 --> 00:35:18.460 And you told me in the preliminary call that you were in conversation with the UK government about, 720 00:35:19.261 --> 00:35:19.501 you know, 721 00:35:19.502 --> 00:35:24.263 the warm home discount to maybe to install this kind of small plug-in batteries. 722 00:35:24.923 --> 00:35:28.725 So there are many really opportunities to make it work. 723 00:35:29.341 --> 00:35:31.442 for really for more and more people. 724 00:35:31.703 --> 00:35:31.923 I mean, 725 00:35:32.123 --> 00:35:32.323 that 726 00:35:33.664 --> 00:35:48.794 I really see like the continuity of the work that you performed in Africa with the really affordability as something central because that's exactly like the solutions they cannot deliver if they only deliver for a happy 727 00:35:49.255 --> 00:35:49.375 few. 728 00:35:49.376 --> 00:35:50.015 Yeah. 729 00:35:50.035 --> 00:35:50.235 Right? 730 00:35:50.976 --> 00:35:52.537 They have to deliver for the many. 731 00:35:53.593 --> 00:35:53.813 Yeah, 732 00:35:53.993 --> 00:35:55.094 that's really interesting because I, 733 00:35:55.195 --> 00:35:55.515 again, 734 00:35:55.595 --> 00:35:59.298 haven't really made this connection in my head until this conversation. 735 00:35:59.398 --> 00:36:01.320 But at Bebots, 736 00:36:02.060 --> 00:36:04.282 the batteries for East Africa, 737 00:36:04.503 --> 00:36:06.945 the business started by building batteries, 738 00:36:06.985 --> 00:36:08.346 building solar panels and saying, 739 00:36:09.187 --> 00:36:09.947 you can buy this. 740 00:36:10.067 --> 00:36:14.271 It's $400 and then you get clean energy forever. 741 00:36:14.892 --> 00:36:15.012 Well, 742 00:36:15.013 --> 00:36:15.532 not forever, 743 00:36:15.612 --> 00:36:17.234 but for a long time. 744 00:36:17.834 --> 00:36:18.355 And obviously, 745 00:36:18.435 --> 00:36:20.356 there are some people that bought those products. 746 00:36:20.497 --> 00:36:20.777 but 747 00:36:21.269 --> 00:36:24.451 a lot of people couldn't afford $400 upfront. 748 00:36:25.271 --> 00:36:27.152 And so that's where we went through that. 749 00:36:27.232 --> 00:36:37.098 How do we enable this pay-as-you-go payment plans to make this either no upfront cost or very small upfront cost and then pay monthly beyond that? 750 00:36:37.938 --> 00:36:42.221 Where we are with Windfall Energy right now is at that similar first stage. 751 00:36:42.241 --> 00:36:45.502 So we just opened for pre-orders last week. 752 00:36:46.023 --> 00:36:49.945 People can buy a Windfall battery for £1,000. 753 00:36:50.265 --> 00:36:53.808 total £100 as a deposit 754 00:36:54.148 --> 00:36:56.670 £900 when we deliver later in the year. 755 00:36:58.332 --> 00:36:59.252 And there are some people, 756 00:36:59.452 --> 00:37:01.154 there are definitely some people because they've already done it, 757 00:37:01.214 --> 00:37:07.699 there are some people that want that and can afford that and are happy to pay the £1,000 and then get their money back over time. 758 00:37:08.460 --> 00:37:11.322 But if we want to make this way more accessible to everyone, 759 00:37:11.862 --> 00:37:13.143 we have to do something different. 760 00:37:13.144 --> 00:37:19.949 We have to make it zero or low upfront cost and still get... 761 00:37:20.149 --> 00:37:22.310 instant kind of bill savings from the product. 762 00:37:22.831 --> 00:37:26.072 So I think thinking again about systems design, 763 00:37:26.112 --> 00:37:31.755 like one way to do this and solve two problems or one is to partner with energy suppliers. 764 00:37:32.396 --> 00:37:38.359 So one problem you can solve by doing that is kind of financing that battery on the bill, 765 00:37:38.999 --> 00:37:45.303 using the savings to pay off the cost and making it kind of no upfront cost for the customer. 766 00:37:45.783 --> 00:37:48.304 And then they still get some savings on their bill. 767 00:37:49.521 --> 00:37:51.582 You mentioned a warm homes plan. 768 00:37:51.682 --> 00:37:54.403 If we can tap into funding available there, 769 00:37:54.923 --> 00:38:03.787 we maybe even can take this a step further by subsidizing a bunch of that cost and giving more of the savings to the customer more quickly, 770 00:38:04.327 --> 00:38:05.328 which makes it even better, 771 00:38:05.868 --> 00:38:07.008 but it doesn't depend on, 772 00:38:07.409 --> 00:38:07.949 like VBOX, 773 00:38:08.029 --> 00:38:09.870 doesn't depend on subsidy. 774 00:38:11.070 --> 00:38:17.113 But there's a second thing that makes it a good path for us to partner with energy suppliers, 775 00:38:17.253 --> 00:38:17.533 Nuts. 776 00:38:18.421 --> 00:38:21.602 The one last bit of complexity that annoys me about this product. 777 00:38:22.003 --> 00:38:24.444 So if you buy this and you put it in your house, 778 00:38:25.864 --> 00:38:27.405 to save money on your energy bills, 779 00:38:27.406 --> 00:38:34.548 you need a certain tariff that has peak and off-peak pricing or variable pricing throughout the day. 780 00:38:35.028 --> 00:38:36.229 That's how it saves you money. 781 00:38:36.249 --> 00:38:38.190 It charges up when it's cheap, 782 00:38:38.430 --> 00:38:39.990 powers your home when it's expensive. 783 00:38:40.851 --> 00:38:43.132 Most people today don't have a tariff like that. 784 00:38:44.552 --> 00:38:45.873 whilst they're widely available. 785 00:38:47.065 --> 00:38:49.387 It's a kind of complicated world. 786 00:38:49.427 --> 00:38:52.630 It's hard to know which of these tariffs is right for me. 787 00:38:52.730 --> 00:38:58.055 It's hard to model or kind of intuit which one is going to best suit your kind of lifestyle, 788 00:38:58.075 --> 00:38:58.875 your energy use. 789 00:38:59.236 --> 00:39:00.717 And then when you add the battery on, 790 00:39:00.718 --> 00:39:02.579 it gets even more complicated. 791 00:39:03.379 --> 00:39:03.500 So 792 00:39:04.040 --> 00:39:14.189 I would love to solve that last bit of complexity by partnering with an energy supplier and creating a new tariff with them that says... 793 00:39:15.317 --> 00:39:17.039 When you sign up for this tariff, 794 00:39:18.000 --> 00:39:20.263 we as an energy supplier will send you the battery. 795 00:39:21.184 --> 00:39:26.329 That allows us to optimize your home to be really low cost using really low cost energy. 796 00:39:27.230 --> 00:39:33.017 And we will pass you a fixed amount of savings per month because you have this battery. 797 00:39:33.529 --> 00:39:33.949 in your home. 798 00:39:34.650 --> 00:39:37.112 So it becomes a much easier kind of decision here. 799 00:39:37.192 --> 00:39:39.693 No complex modeling of different tariffs in your head. 800 00:39:39.714 --> 00:39:46.879 You just know this tariff gets a fixed discount on my bill because I have the battery in my home. 801 00:39:48.120 --> 00:39:49.321 We're not quite there yet, 802 00:39:49.921 --> 00:39:50.802 but that's the vision. 803 00:39:50.962 --> 00:39:51.962 I think once we do that, 804 00:39:51.982 --> 00:39:55.785 we remove the two last kind of hurdles that I see, 805 00:39:55.965 --> 00:39:59.068 upfront cost and tariff complexity. 806 00:39:59.069 --> 00:40:00.849 So that's why we're really interested to do that. 807 00:40:01.693 --> 00:40:01.833 Yeah, 808 00:40:02.734 --> 00:40:02.974 I mean, 809 00:40:03.034 --> 00:40:06.475 it makes the home almost a dispatchable asset. 810 00:40:06.515 --> 00:40:08.156 So that should be at scale. 811 00:40:08.236 --> 00:40:09.056 That would be really, 812 00:40:09.156 --> 00:40:09.877 really interesting. 813 00:40:09.957 --> 00:40:10.837 And I mean, 814 00:40:11.057 --> 00:40:13.718 I would also see how interesting it could be for, 815 00:40:13.738 --> 00:40:14.119 I don't know, 816 00:40:15.159 --> 00:40:19.041 appliance manufacturers and sellers and stuff like that also. 817 00:40:19.101 --> 00:40:19.381 Because, 818 00:40:19.781 --> 00:40:20.021 I mean, 819 00:40:20.301 --> 00:40:20.681 in a way, 820 00:40:21.142 --> 00:40:27.004 some could argue that the battery would come in competition to changing your dishwasher, 821 00:40:27.104 --> 00:40:28.405 washing machine or something like that. 822 00:40:28.425 --> 00:40:28.545 but 823 00:40:29.025 --> 00:40:29.986 That would be complementary, 824 00:40:30.166 --> 00:40:30.406 right? 825 00:40:30.666 --> 00:40:33.748 There would be some complementary pathways. 826 00:40:33.848 --> 00:40:35.148 And now I'm thinking, 827 00:40:35.349 --> 00:40:35.829 for instance, 828 00:40:36.189 --> 00:40:36.649 in Italy, 829 00:40:37.270 --> 00:40:41.012 when you purchase your primary residence, 830 00:40:41.332 --> 00:40:46.214 you get some tax incentives to change your appliances, 831 00:40:47.135 --> 00:40:47.575 basically. 832 00:40:48.095 --> 00:40:48.276 Yeah, 833 00:40:48.456 --> 00:40:49.496 furniture and appliances. 834 00:40:49.556 --> 00:40:49.776 That's, 835 00:40:49.936 --> 00:40:50.177 you know, 836 00:40:50.257 --> 00:40:52.098 this kind of tax credit for this kind of thing. 837 00:40:52.778 --> 00:40:52.898 Yeah, 838 00:40:53.098 --> 00:40:54.519 it only benefits rich people. 839 00:40:54.659 --> 00:40:58.061 But that's still something to take into consideration. 840 00:40:58.121 --> 00:40:58.241 but 841 00:40:58.501 --> 00:40:58.721 you know, 842 00:40:58.801 --> 00:41:02.343 that would be relevant to have batteries inserted in the models as well. 843 00:41:02.403 --> 00:41:07.486 So it's probably one of the first time I have such a conversation about batteries. 844 00:41:08.066 --> 00:41:09.707 But I think it won't be the last. 845 00:41:09.787 --> 00:41:10.267 And I mean, 846 00:41:10.307 --> 00:41:12.649 there are so many kind of views that 847 00:41:13.109 --> 00:41:15.730 I see to this technology. 848 00:41:16.971 --> 00:41:19.613 When are you planning to display it? 849 00:41:19.733 --> 00:41:22.914 Are you going to be in Brussels for the Sustainable Energy Week? 850 00:41:22.934 --> 00:41:25.436 Because I have a lot of listeners who will be there. 851 00:41:25.816 --> 00:41:27.517 So if you bring one of these... 852 00:41:27.837 --> 00:41:27.957 No, 853 00:41:27.958 --> 00:41:28.277 we didn't. 854 00:41:28.278 --> 00:41:28.938 You didn't in your luggage, 855 00:41:29.298 --> 00:41:30.399 like in the Eurostar. 856 00:41:31.760 --> 00:41:32.181 So we did. 857 00:41:32.241 --> 00:41:32.981 We were, 858 00:41:32.982 --> 00:41:33.221 I mean, 859 00:41:33.662 --> 00:41:34.142 where were we? 860 00:41:34.143 --> 00:41:34.883 We were in 861 00:41:35.423 --> 00:41:38.606 Amsterdam two weeks ago at the Future of Utilities conference. 862 00:41:38.607 --> 00:41:45.311 That was the first time we bought this kind of real version of the product with us kind of outside of the office. 863 00:41:45.312 --> 00:41:46.652 Does it have a wheel? 864 00:41:46.833 --> 00:41:47.633 Does it have a name? 865 00:41:49.375 --> 00:41:53.558 So there is a big flight case to carry around. 866 00:41:53.618 --> 00:41:56.981 And I'll reveal a little secret on the podcast. 867 00:41:57.321 --> 00:41:59.242 We took most of the batteries out of this one, 868 00:41:59.262 --> 00:42:01.182 so we can more easily carry it. 869 00:42:01.183 --> 00:42:01.922 Because 870 00:42:02.302 --> 00:42:04.743 25 kilos is light for a battery. 871 00:42:04.783 --> 00:42:05.583 We can deliver it, 872 00:42:05.603 --> 00:42:09.064 but it's still quite a lot to carry around on the train. 873 00:42:09.864 --> 00:42:10.825 Spoiler alert, 874 00:42:11.465 --> 00:42:12.825 it's the weight of my child. 875 00:42:12.865 --> 00:42:14.326 I wouldn't carry her all day. 876 00:42:14.327 --> 00:42:15.666 Exactly, 877 00:42:15.926 --> 00:42:16.326 exactly. 878 00:42:17.066 --> 00:42:18.807 But to your question, 879 00:42:19.207 --> 00:42:19.627 Belgium, 880 00:42:19.807 --> 00:42:20.387 I know, 881 00:42:20.527 --> 00:42:20.808 I mean, 882 00:42:20.828 --> 00:42:22.868 we don't have a plan to come do that. 883 00:42:22.988 --> 00:42:25.789 But maybe we'll chat after this podcast to see if we... 884 00:42:26.557 --> 00:42:28.399 see if we should come to that. 885 00:42:29.660 --> 00:42:35.845 We've just been through a kind of a run of launch party events starting in the Netherlands, 886 00:42:35.846 --> 00:42:36.405 as I said, 887 00:42:36.425 --> 00:42:42.731 but then last week was full of back-to-back events around London where we were taking this, 888 00:42:42.851 --> 00:42:43.171 and then 889 00:42:43.751 --> 00:42:48.595 I think Rob and I are taking a short break from events for now, 890 00:42:49.096 --> 00:42:49.956 and then hopefully, 891 00:42:50.717 --> 00:42:51.157 yeah, 892 00:42:51.398 --> 00:42:53.279 maybe we'll come to the one you mentioned, 893 00:42:53.299 --> 00:42:54.380 maybe others, 894 00:42:54.440 --> 00:42:55.281 but I mean, 895 00:42:56.001 --> 00:42:57.723 follow us on LinkedIn. 896 00:42:58.163 --> 00:43:02.007 We always shout about what event we'll be at. 897 00:43:02.907 --> 00:43:03.668 Thank you so much, 898 00:43:03.688 --> 00:43:04.008 Leslie. 899 00:43:04.148 --> 00:43:07.611 I've learned so much about batteries and, 900 00:43:07.631 --> 00:43:07.892 you know, 901 00:43:08.072 --> 00:43:15.858 this podcast is really about making these kind of encounters and making sure that we get to learn from people with a very different perspective. 902 00:43:15.859 --> 00:43:16.479 So thank you. 903 00:43:16.659 --> 00:43:20.623 Thank you very much for this very candid conversation. 904 00:43:20.723 --> 00:43:21.403 I loved it. 905 00:43:21.463 --> 00:43:23.445 So thank you and uh, 906 00:43:23.809 --> 00:43:26.770 Best of luck for the next steps and enjoy your break. 907 00:43:27.690 --> 00:43:27.970 Thank you. 908 00:43:27.971 --> 00:43:32.271 It's been really great chatting with you. 909 00:43:32.591 --> 00:43:32.932 Thank you. 910 00:43:35.132 --> 00:43:36.873 Energetic explores the people, 911 00:43:36.993 --> 00:43:41.594 policies and institutions shaping Europe's and the world's energy transition. 912 00:43:42.274 --> 00:43:43.294 I am Marine Cornelis. 913 00:43:43.554 --> 00:43:45.415 If you found this conversation valuable, 914 00:43:45.475 --> 00:43:47.876 you can share it with colleagues working on housing, 915 00:43:47.956 --> 00:43:49.456 governance and consumer protection. 916 00:43:50.056 --> 00:43:53.057 You will find references and further reading in the show notes.