WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.389 --> 00:00:08.876 By disturbing the soil with tilling and conventional agriculture that comes and disturbs the soil surface and so on, 2 00:00:09.094 --> 00:00:09.555 what we do, 3 00:00:09.696 --> 00:00:12.258 we bring the ecosystem back to day zero. 4 00:00:12.704 --> 00:00:13.219 Each time, 5 00:00:13.782 --> 00:00:15.946 pastures co-evolve with animals. 6 00:00:16.625 --> 00:00:19.969 So the grass just grows better if it's bitten, 7 00:00:20.063 --> 00:00:20.344 you know, 8 00:00:20.345 --> 00:00:21.547 if it's been grazed on. 9 00:00:21.672 --> 00:00:24.485 And managing complexity is what we have to do. 10 00:00:26.032 --> 00:00:27.391 Welcome back to The Deep Seed. 11 00:00:28.040 --> 00:00:33.759 Last month I had the amazing opportunity of visiting a very special place called Val di Bella. 12 00:00:34.380 --> 00:00:38.384 It's an organic farming cooperative located in the heart of Sicily. 13 00:00:39.181 --> 00:00:45.025 I spent a few days there and I was given the chance to speak to a lot of different people within the cooperative. 14 00:00:45.681 --> 00:00:52.978 Of course I decided to record these conversations and to release them here on the Deep Seed as a mini-series about Val di Bella. 15 00:00:54.220 --> 00:00:58.523 Today is episode 4 of this mini-series and I'm talking to Eleonora Kiri. 16 00:00:58.941 --> 00:01:05.726 She's a soil microbiology expert who's also a teacher here at the Val di Bella School of Agroecology. 17 00:01:07.124 --> 00:01:14.843 She's amazing at explaining the complexity of soil life in a manner that is very clear and easy to understand, 18 00:01:14.906 --> 00:01:17.609 especially if you're kind of new to these topics. 19 00:01:18.359 --> 00:01:21.687 This episode was made in partnership with Soil Capital. 20 00:01:22.281 --> 00:01:23.531 I'm your host Raphael. 21 00:01:23.956 --> 00:01:25.518 And this is the Deep Seed Podcast. 22 00:01:34.445 --> 00:01:35.625 I'm Eleonora Chiri, 23 00:01:36.164 --> 00:01:38.227 I'm a soil microbiologist and 24 00:01:39.453 --> 00:01:41.930 I am part of the scientific committee of the 25 00:01:42.414 --> 00:01:43.617 Practical School of 26 00:01:44.039 --> 00:01:45.664 Agroecology of the 27 00:01:46.164 --> 00:01:47.320 Valdibella Co-op, 28 00:01:47.445 --> 00:01:51.742 which is this independent organization that promotes 29 00:01:52.860 --> 00:02:04.653 knowledge sharing among the agricultural community and also people that are curious to know about how systems can work in this agroecology framework. 30 00:02:05.950 --> 00:02:11.044 What's the one piece of information you wish every farmer knew about soil microbiology? 31 00:02:12.637 --> 00:02:12.903 Well, 32 00:02:13.387 --> 00:02:18.762 I wish every farmer would know and understand that it needs soil microbiology, 33 00:02:18.825 --> 00:02:20.512 it needs life in soil. 34 00:02:21.940 --> 00:02:22.521 as such, 35 00:02:23.041 --> 00:02:26.246 exist only thanks to the biological component. 36 00:02:26.247 --> 00:02:26.606 In fact, 37 00:02:27.024 --> 00:02:32.168 the English language helps us so much to distinguish between dirt and soil. 38 00:02:32.207 --> 00:02:36.176 So we have two words to mention this one element. 39 00:02:36.231 --> 00:02:38.012 And dirt is just like, 40 00:02:38.013 --> 00:02:38.262 you know, 41 00:02:38.481 --> 00:02:41.137 if you put a pile of dirt on your hand, 42 00:02:41.637 --> 00:02:44.106 it's this destructured soil. 43 00:02:44.137 --> 00:02:47.324 It has no structure or shape on itself. 44 00:02:47.731 --> 00:02:49.090 And then when you talk about soil, 45 00:02:49.184 --> 00:02:51.653 you think of this sort of mud cake. 46 00:02:52.120 --> 00:03:06.977 color wise very rich and fluffy soil and that soil has structure because there's organic matter into it and the organic matter comes because life it's part of the soil system for someone who's not 47 00:03:07.016 --> 00:03:20.696 familiar with this concept that there is a difference that there's a soil that is alive could you describe this ecosystem in the soil like what makes it so special yes just imagine at 48 00:03:20.960 --> 00:03:21.701 Community, 49 00:03:22.001 --> 00:03:23.682 like a small village, 50 00:03:23.864 --> 00:03:24.784 let's put it this way, 51 00:03:24.864 --> 00:03:26.805 with not many inhabitants, 52 00:03:26.946 --> 00:03:30.813 but just those that functionally have an important role. 53 00:03:30.891 --> 00:03:39.673 So if you take away the baker from a community where no one else could replace his place, 54 00:03:39.923 --> 00:03:42.688 then little by little the community crumbles. 55 00:03:42.704 --> 00:03:47.548 So we can imagine the biological community in soils. 56 00:03:48.768 --> 00:03:50.168 These microelements, 57 00:03:50.229 --> 00:03:51.809 these microorganisms, 58 00:03:52.208 --> 00:03:57.750 they're all needed because they all play a functional role. 59 00:03:58.329 --> 00:03:59.790 And on top of this, 60 00:03:59.930 --> 00:04:01.993 we can build with more organisms, 61 00:04:02.047 --> 00:04:05.266 which are a little larger and slightly larger and so on. 62 00:04:05.688 --> 00:04:13.157 And then we cover all the traffic network of soils that also brings life to the... 63 00:04:13.876 --> 00:04:15.258 above the surface of the soil. 64 00:04:15.259 --> 00:04:18.201 So then we can start embracing the larger animals, 65 00:04:18.202 --> 00:04:18.940 the herbivores, 66 00:04:19.022 --> 00:04:20.002 the humankind. 67 00:04:20.104 --> 00:04:28.291 So we should imagine the soil life community as the basis for the life on top of the soil. 68 00:04:29.112 --> 00:04:39.534 I read in a book recently that there is a symbiosis that appeared over hundreds of millions of years of evolution on Earth between plants and soil microbiology. 69 00:04:40.340 --> 00:04:40.520 Right, 70 00:04:40.521 --> 00:04:43.724 that they both function together in the benefit of each other. 71 00:04:43.865 --> 00:04:46.587 Could you maybe sort of describe this symbiosis? 72 00:04:47.165 --> 00:04:47.447 Yes. 73 00:04:47.806 --> 00:04:50.814 So let's start from plants. 74 00:04:50.970 --> 00:04:52.470 Plants are a very, 75 00:04:52.736 --> 00:04:57.783 very unique or special type of organisms that live on our planet. 76 00:04:57.923 --> 00:05:00.001 They're among different from... 77 00:05:00.148 --> 00:05:01.068 All the other organisms, 78 00:05:01.108 --> 00:05:04.950 they are fixed in one place. 79 00:05:05.508 --> 00:05:06.571 They don't have legs. 80 00:05:06.950 --> 00:05:12.192 Plants cannot run away from an environment which is unhealthy or not productive for them. 81 00:05:12.270 --> 00:05:16.653 So they need to create conditions to be happy in there. 82 00:05:16.731 --> 00:05:22.669 And this happens thanks to a very good living agreement with the microorganism in the soil. 83 00:05:23.372 --> 00:05:29.294 It's many fungi that work with plants in exchanging nutrients and having... 84 00:05:29.776 --> 00:05:34.880 a reciprocal benefit out of it and where fungi are present, 85 00:05:35.102 --> 00:05:36.665 bacteria come as well. 86 00:05:36.684 --> 00:05:39.462 So we're talking still about the macro organisms, 87 00:05:39.524 --> 00:05:53.618 so part of life in the soil and everyone has his role and then only when they synchronize with each other they can really cover the all nutrient cycles and nutrients can move also from one plant to another. 88 00:05:53.837 --> 00:05:57.868 So it's a benefit that it doesn't stay local. 89 00:05:58.337 --> 00:05:58.821 It also... 90 00:05:59.808 --> 00:06:04.153 travels around along the fungi iphys, 91 00:06:04.192 --> 00:06:05.212 the micro-reezes, 92 00:06:05.333 --> 00:06:14.942 and so the nearby plants can benefit as well from what the plants before in the row it's doing well with the microorganisms. 93 00:06:17.083 --> 00:06:19.724 What happens to this soil life? 94 00:06:19.989 --> 00:06:26.317 You describe this complex diverse life where every organisms play a different role. 95 00:06:26.752 --> 00:06:28.214 And it's like a complex community. 96 00:06:28.254 --> 00:06:30.035 If you take out parts of the community, 97 00:06:30.054 --> 00:06:30.976 it starts to crumble. 98 00:06:32.797 --> 00:06:34.800 What happened over the last 70, 99 00:06:34.918 --> 00:06:36.863 80 years with conventional agriculture, 100 00:06:36.879 --> 00:06:38.066 the use of mechanization, 101 00:06:38.425 --> 00:06:39.464 chemicals and all of that? 102 00:06:39.504 --> 00:06:41.410 What happens to that community in the soil? 103 00:06:42.808 --> 00:06:52.511 So what happened basically is that we pushed this community dynamics to benefit just one part of the community, 104 00:06:53.183 --> 00:06:55.496 which is usually like the bacteria they are. 105 00:06:55.944 --> 00:06:56.564 Amazing, 106 00:06:56.644 --> 00:06:58.685 they're fast growing, 107 00:06:58.745 --> 00:06:59.925 they're pioneers. 108 00:07:00.027 --> 00:07:04.484 Those are the ones that we can find in the most remote and livable place on Earth. 109 00:07:05.445 --> 00:07:13.273 And this happens against the evolutions and the development of the fungi community in the soil. 110 00:07:13.991 --> 00:07:20.554 And so if we imagine a cake with a certain slice which is allocated for bacteria, 111 00:07:21.070 --> 00:07:22.445 and the rest of the pie... 112 00:07:22.772 --> 00:07:25.914 it's allocated for fungi in a healthy soil ecosystem, 113 00:07:26.637 --> 00:07:34.781 we have to imagine this cake sort of be able to expanding and receding depending on the needs of the ecosystem. 114 00:07:34.867 --> 00:07:37.610 So in an early stage ecosystem, 115 00:07:38.406 --> 00:07:43.750 you need a lot of bacteria because they are those that are able to live from air as well. 116 00:07:43.938 --> 00:07:49.797 They are able to get food out of air and they are those that establish early plants. 117 00:07:50.804 --> 00:07:54.848 And then you need to switch into a more established community. 118 00:07:54.989 --> 00:07:57.270 You need succession to happen. 119 00:07:57.352 --> 00:07:59.411 If we want plants to establish, 120 00:07:59.551 --> 00:08:00.395 trees to establish, 121 00:08:00.496 --> 00:08:03.856 we really have to move forward with this soil community as well. 122 00:08:04.575 --> 00:08:10.809 And by disturbing the soil with tilling and... 123 00:08:13.056 --> 00:08:17.198 conventional agriculture that comes and disturbs the soil surface and so on, 124 00:08:17.417 --> 00:08:17.878 what we do, 125 00:08:18.019 --> 00:08:21.558 we bring the ecosystem back to day zero each time. 126 00:08:22.097 --> 00:08:25.839 I want to plant something new and I just go around with the till. 127 00:08:26.362 --> 00:08:28.456 I just go back in my succession. 128 00:08:28.558 --> 00:08:29.925 So bacteria will come, 129 00:08:29.926 --> 00:08:30.815 they establish, 130 00:08:31.206 --> 00:08:32.144 they will grow fast. 131 00:08:32.706 --> 00:08:39.284 Fungi we try to establish as well and create these highways of nutrients distributions. 132 00:08:39.724 --> 00:08:45.148 then they will be cut and destructed again the next time I disturb salt and I go back. 133 00:08:45.429 --> 00:08:48.957 So it's an ecosystem that doesn't grow basically. 134 00:08:49.472 --> 00:08:49.691 Okay, 135 00:08:49.933 --> 00:08:57.035 so to improve this ecosystem we need to favor the growth of fungi communities and networks. 136 00:08:57.644 --> 00:09:01.160 What would you say are the key elements, 137 00:09:01.161 --> 00:09:05.644 the key farming practices that favor the growth of these communities? 138 00:09:08.120 --> 00:09:08.861 First of all, 139 00:09:08.881 --> 00:09:09.802 and most importantly, 140 00:09:09.841 --> 00:09:11.904 is avoiding soil disturbance. 141 00:09:12.443 --> 00:09:13.365 Of course, 142 00:09:13.404 --> 00:09:14.427 in the ideal case, 143 00:09:14.466 --> 00:09:16.009 there's no soil disturbance, 144 00:09:16.130 --> 00:09:21.630 but we're dealing with farms that also have to keep making a living also in this transitional phase. 145 00:09:21.669 --> 00:09:32.919 So minimum disturbance practices can help tremendously not to disrupt this communication network that the fungi are able to establish in the soil. 146 00:09:33.404 --> 00:09:36.466 So there's plenty of ways that one could work. 147 00:09:36.760 --> 00:09:40.644 in decompacting the soil by acting, 148 00:09:40.785 --> 00:09:44.249 not just flipping around the whole soil surface. 149 00:09:44.308 --> 00:09:51.937 So there are machines that allow you with hooks to go deep into the soil at about 30 centimeters of depth, 150 00:09:52.117 --> 00:09:55.859 or you can regulate this and just create some air, 151 00:09:56.921 --> 00:09:59.890 some space for the plants to establish their root. 152 00:10:00.388 --> 00:10:03.631 without completely disrupting the surface. 153 00:10:03.750 --> 00:10:04.153 And this, 154 00:10:04.551 --> 00:10:05.114 with time, 155 00:10:05.711 --> 00:10:11.157 it helps the soil to accumulate more organic matter because that's what happens with the living biomasters. 156 00:10:11.219 --> 00:10:12.180 Living biomasters, 157 00:10:12.336 --> 00:10:13.079 dead biomasters, 158 00:10:13.243 --> 00:10:14.563 we need fungi, 159 00:10:14.641 --> 00:10:14.946 mainly, 160 00:10:15.446 --> 00:10:18.047 that process this matter. 161 00:10:18.547 --> 00:10:20.969 And then more can stay in the soil. 162 00:10:21.110 --> 00:10:22.047 So the more, 163 00:10:22.563 --> 00:10:26.547 the higher is the residence time of this soil organic matter in the soil, 164 00:10:27.016 --> 00:10:28.188 the better it is for it. 165 00:10:28.891 --> 00:10:29.094 Okay. 166 00:10:29.972 --> 00:10:31.514 More specifically here at Val di Bella, 167 00:10:31.633 --> 00:10:35.657 how have you been monitoring the health of the soils of the different farmers here? 168 00:10:36.180 --> 00:10:41.641 And have you seen an improvement in certain metrics or certain measurements? 169 00:10:42.125 --> 00:10:44.289 So I wish I could give you an answer, 170 00:10:46.243 --> 00:10:51.196 but we're not there yet with the community of the farmers at Val di Bella. 171 00:10:51.711 --> 00:10:55.977 There's also the main job of the school at the moment. 172 00:10:56.055 --> 00:10:58.696 It's really to deliver the message. 173 00:11:00.148 --> 00:11:01.029 are very, 174 00:11:01.109 --> 00:11:04.270 very much needed approaches to soil health. 175 00:11:04.391 --> 00:11:09.356 And we're having success because we say, 176 00:11:09.395 --> 00:11:09.676 you know, 177 00:11:09.700 --> 00:11:13.403 that the most difficult things to change is the mind of the farmer. 178 00:11:13.981 --> 00:11:15.942 And that's really where the change needs to happen. 179 00:11:16.005 --> 00:11:21.653 And so by creating these events of community and knowledge sharing, 180 00:11:22.091 --> 00:11:23.669 talking about these techniques, 181 00:11:23.966 --> 00:11:25.341 agroecological techniques, 182 00:11:26.169 --> 00:11:29.653 we start to get the interest of those that actually work the land. 183 00:11:30.300 --> 00:11:38.351 And the vision of the Val di Bello and the school is to have a pilot farm. 184 00:11:38.906 --> 00:11:49.781 And we want to put into practice all this knowledge that we have in just one farm so that we can start monitoring together with the students. 185 00:11:49.937 --> 00:11:51.156 And so coming back, 186 00:11:51.624 --> 00:11:51.921 you know, 187 00:11:52.515 --> 00:11:53.265 every month, 188 00:11:53.266 --> 00:11:53.999 every season, 189 00:11:54.484 --> 00:11:58.734 we will all see the signs of regeneration. 190 00:12:01.072 --> 00:12:01.292 Okay, 191 00:12:01.512 --> 00:12:07.138 I realized just now while I was editing this episode that there's a crucial piece of information missing here. 192 00:12:08.318 --> 00:12:08.560 First, 193 00:12:08.561 --> 00:12:10.380 a very quick recap about Valdibella. 194 00:12:10.802 --> 00:12:19.474 It's a farming cooperative located in Sicily that includes about 40 different farmers and a whole range of other people within the cooperative. 195 00:12:20.005 --> 00:12:21.458 Some people in finance, 196 00:12:21.490 --> 00:12:22.255 in marketing, 197 00:12:22.256 --> 00:12:22.911 in sales, 198 00:12:22.974 --> 00:12:24.911 in hospitality, 199 00:12:25.021 --> 00:12:25.630 for example, 200 00:12:25.693 --> 00:12:28.583 but also a range of experts in ecology and so on, 201 00:12:28.584 --> 00:12:29.833 microbiology and climate. 202 00:12:30.036 --> 00:12:31.518 climatology and things like that. 203 00:12:32.418 --> 00:12:36.403 And all of these people make up the Val di Bella cooperative. 204 00:12:37.082 --> 00:12:43.907 And they decided together to buy a farm from a local conventional farmer who's now retiring. 205 00:12:44.711 --> 00:12:47.750 They will manage this farm together as a cooperative. 206 00:12:48.328 --> 00:12:54.563 And what Eleonora is explaining here is that they're going to use this farm as a pilot farm to teach. 207 00:12:55.048 --> 00:12:58.771 agroecology and soil science to everyone within the cooperative. 208 00:12:59.412 --> 00:13:03.260 They'll be able to start with a T0 assessment, 209 00:13:03.775 --> 00:13:06.783 collect a whole range of measurements and observations, 210 00:13:07.502 --> 00:13:11.299 and then keep measuring and monitoring together on a regular basis. 211 00:13:12.283 --> 00:13:12.564 And 212 00:13:12.939 --> 00:13:16.283 I think it's such an amazing idea because it will give everyone, 213 00:13:16.627 --> 00:13:19.814 regardless of their job or their function in the cooperative, 214 00:13:20.236 --> 00:13:24.064 An opportunity to get hands-on experience and knowledge about 215 00:13:24.488 --> 00:13:25.069 Agroecology, 216 00:13:26.030 --> 00:13:26.731 such a cool idea. 217 00:13:29.051 --> 00:13:33.895 What have been the most recent exciting discoveries in the world of soil science? 218 00:13:33.918 --> 00:13:36.942 Like if you were meeting with fellow colleagues, 219 00:13:37.457 --> 00:13:38.520 experts in soil science, 220 00:13:38.582 --> 00:13:40.004 what would you be discussing? 221 00:13:41.160 --> 00:13:42.692 I think what is great, 222 00:13:43.285 --> 00:13:46.723 the greatest thing of our generation, 223 00:13:46.817 --> 00:13:48.035 let's say of these times, 224 00:13:48.254 --> 00:13:53.098 is the understanding of how systemic the approach is. 225 00:13:53.664 --> 00:14:09.626 How we should move away from just this reductionist approach of looking at the functional group in the soil and just describing down to the super refined detail of what they're doing and how they're doing and put them into context. 226 00:14:09.986 --> 00:14:12.580 Put them into the context of soil dynamics, 227 00:14:12.970 --> 00:14:13.376 seriously. 228 00:14:13.876 --> 00:14:17.986 And there are tools that now allow you to study, 229 00:14:19.345 --> 00:14:19.611 you know, 230 00:14:19.642 --> 00:14:20.423 you do like in... 231 00:14:21.504 --> 00:14:27.869 You can do this dry run on softwares on how the community could actually behave, 232 00:14:28.349 --> 00:14:34.740 but then the field researchers is actually looking at confirming and reproducing these results. 233 00:14:34.779 --> 00:14:35.256 And this is, 234 00:14:35.654 --> 00:14:35.959 I think, 235 00:14:35.982 --> 00:14:37.318 is the biggest understanding, 236 00:14:37.357 --> 00:14:39.748 this multidisciplinary approach, 237 00:14:39.857 --> 00:14:47.451 which is not just there is one chemist and one microbiologist and then a geochemist that work together, 238 00:14:47.623 --> 00:14:48.670 but it's the common. 239 00:14:49.184 --> 00:14:50.486 What is common is the project, 240 00:14:50.487 --> 00:14:51.770 it is a systemic approach. 241 00:14:52.590 --> 00:14:53.490 And that's something that 242 00:14:54.033 --> 00:14:57.217 I guess is great about this agroecology school here, 243 00:14:57.240 --> 00:14:59.842 is that you're bringing together experts from different fields. 244 00:15:00.200 --> 00:15:00.840 With farmers, 245 00:15:00.920 --> 00:15:01.600 with students, 246 00:15:01.640 --> 00:15:05.482 with a whole community of people and everyone is involved in the conversation. 247 00:15:05.521 --> 00:15:10.302 So I guess you're breaking down the silos and you're creating a more holistic discussion, 248 00:15:10.341 --> 00:15:10.560 right? 249 00:15:10.943 --> 00:15:11.099 Yeah, 250 00:15:11.224 --> 00:15:11.865 absolutely. 251 00:15:12.583 --> 00:15:14.560 Managing complexity is what we have to do. 252 00:15:15.083 --> 00:15:16.279 There's no other solutions. 253 00:15:16.326 --> 00:15:22.029 And the sooner we stop fighting this concept and embrace it, 254 00:15:22.263 --> 00:15:24.685 then it becomes a strength of the conversation. 255 00:15:26.060 --> 00:15:26.622 Myself, 256 00:15:26.779 --> 00:15:28.810 this is my very personal experience. 257 00:15:28.841 --> 00:15:29.185 at BIM. 258 00:15:29.964 --> 00:15:46.040 an academic researcher for many years and the missing bits over there was like this bridging in communication okay we're studying soil ecosystems and see how healthy they how they look like when they're healthy and then and 259 00:15:46.056 --> 00:15:58.337 then then we just keep telling each other this stuff to each other at conference you know like and where are the actors that then they put this stuff into practice and how most important can we 260 00:15:59.036 --> 00:16:00.557 deliver this information, 261 00:16:00.637 --> 00:16:03.657 like where is this the connection in language also. 262 00:16:04.759 --> 00:16:11.462 And so this is actually a very difficult but very exciting part of the conversation, 263 00:16:11.618 --> 00:16:15.157 like being able to put together in one room during a day, 264 00:16:15.704 --> 00:16:18.063 around the table with fine food, 265 00:16:18.220 --> 00:16:22.001 also everyone that plays in this ecosystem. 266 00:16:22.517 --> 00:16:26.642 And so when you participate to these teaching events, 267 00:16:27.664 --> 00:16:28.784 That include farmers as well. 268 00:16:28.944 --> 00:16:33.086 What is the information you bring that gets the most reaction from them? 269 00:16:33.625 --> 00:16:34.047 Positive, 270 00:16:34.086 --> 00:16:34.484 negative, 271 00:16:34.527 --> 00:16:37.668 like the one thing that sparks the most conversation and debate. 272 00:16:37.824 --> 00:16:38.785 Wow. 273 00:16:38.786 --> 00:16:42.105 So we are very provocative on that, 274 00:16:42.207 --> 00:16:42.629 I guess. 275 00:16:43.386 --> 00:16:44.621 My personal experience, 276 00:16:44.746 --> 00:16:51.183 it's like the introduction of animal in the farm system that grows, 277 00:16:51.636 --> 00:16:51.933 let's say, 278 00:16:52.011 --> 00:16:54.902 vegetables or fruits. 279 00:16:55.105 --> 00:16:55.511 It's a... 280 00:16:56.660 --> 00:16:57.301 It's strange, 281 00:16:57.481 --> 00:16:59.782 but it is the most provocative one, 282 00:16:59.823 --> 00:17:02.145 because in the last 50 years, 283 00:17:02.626 --> 00:17:07.571 the agricultural system completely detached from livestock management. 284 00:17:07.673 --> 00:17:10.790 And if we talk to our grandfathers, 285 00:17:10.852 --> 00:17:14.634 they tell us how they were moving the animal in, 286 00:17:15.852 --> 00:17:20.056 like it was a symbiosis with the plant system. 287 00:17:20.618 --> 00:17:21.149 And now, 288 00:17:21.384 --> 00:17:21.649 you know, 289 00:17:21.665 --> 00:17:23.399 with all the agricultural incentive, 290 00:17:23.540 --> 00:17:24.274 Also with the 291 00:17:25.036 --> 00:17:26.458 A lot of what comes from the CAP, 292 00:17:28.399 --> 00:17:28.518 the 293 00:17:28.899 --> 00:17:31.901 European policy for agriculture, 294 00:17:32.784 --> 00:17:35.308 there's a detachment of these two systems. 295 00:17:35.386 --> 00:17:40.229 Animals are not welcome on the land where we grow stuff anymore. 296 00:17:41.315 --> 00:17:46.800 And so we have to overcome the missing inputs of the systems. 297 00:17:47.752 --> 00:17:50.294 with the external input into fertilizer. 298 00:17:50.695 --> 00:17:53.558 We're not even discussing now whether they're organic or not, 299 00:17:53.659 --> 00:17:55.640 but it's an external input that is needed. 300 00:17:56.280 --> 00:17:56.960 And in fact, 301 00:17:57.804 --> 00:17:59.960 pastures co-evolve with animals. 302 00:18:00.648 --> 00:18:03.976 So the grass just grows better if it's bitten, 303 00:18:04.085 --> 00:18:04.366 you know, 304 00:18:04.367 --> 00:18:05.570 if it's been grazed on. 305 00:18:05.695 --> 00:18:08.476 And not just the hay, 306 00:18:08.648 --> 00:18:12.054 this works also for the plants that we're used to, 307 00:18:12.163 --> 00:18:15.226 and trees developed with animals, 308 00:18:15.366 --> 00:18:16.476 co-evolve with animals. 309 00:18:16.523 --> 00:18:16.648 So. 310 00:18:17.468 --> 00:18:22.574 Has there been examples here at Vall di Bella of farmers who integrated animals into their systems? 311 00:18:22.613 --> 00:18:27.816 And have you been able then to observe the positive changes in the landscape? 312 00:18:29.542 --> 00:18:29.824 Yes, 313 00:18:30.378 --> 00:18:33.777 so it's starting to become a thing again, 314 00:18:34.011 --> 00:18:41.495 for example to have sheep grazing between the almond tree growth. 315 00:18:43.480 --> 00:18:46.203 The animals are a very powerful tool though, 316 00:18:46.342 --> 00:18:51.850 so you can go bad or very good depending on how you manage them. 317 00:18:51.951 --> 00:18:54.311 So management is crucial. 318 00:18:55.412 --> 00:18:58.311 You want to make sure that they graze the grass, 319 00:18:58.772 --> 00:19:05.358 that they don't graze the leaves of your trees or even going for fruits if that's the case. 320 00:19:05.359 --> 00:19:10.061 So there should be a very good plan done before. 321 00:19:10.464 --> 00:19:19.757 when you know what is the right time for you to bring the animals in order not to damage your production of almonds in this case, 322 00:19:20.351 --> 00:19:26.663 but also to make sure there's no overgraze on the land or the animal impact, 323 00:19:27.007 --> 00:19:28.554 it doesn't turn into negative, 324 00:19:28.555 --> 00:19:30.538 you just want to keep it on a positive side. 325 00:19:31.007 --> 00:19:36.835 And there's just a few elements you have to keep into account and then you have it. 326 00:19:37.413 --> 00:19:37.976 It's actually... 327 00:19:38.500 --> 00:19:39.741 Very easy to plan, 328 00:19:40.542 --> 00:19:45.007 properly manage grazing with the animals. 329 00:19:45.167 --> 00:19:47.347 And so now we're not there yet. 330 00:19:47.448 --> 00:19:49.573 We're not there where there is a calendar, 331 00:19:49.691 --> 00:19:50.089 let's say, 332 00:19:50.175 --> 00:19:53.792 that is followed and there's not much pre-planning. 333 00:19:54.472 --> 00:19:57.222 But it's more an opportunistic grazing, 334 00:19:57.441 --> 00:19:59.987 but it happens relatively quickly. 335 00:20:00.048 --> 00:20:01.149 at the right time, 336 00:20:01.309 --> 00:20:03.292 such as by instinct, 337 00:20:03.372 --> 00:20:05.493 observing what's happening on the land. 338 00:20:05.895 --> 00:20:10.700 And people are happier with the results rather than being sad. 339 00:20:11.356 --> 00:20:13.098 No one complains about damage, 340 00:20:13.223 --> 00:20:14.723 animal damage on the trees. 341 00:20:14.825 --> 00:20:16.841 That's more like of a urban legend, 342 00:20:16.997 --> 00:20:17.262 you know. 343 00:20:18.231 --> 00:20:20.403 It really depends on what time of the year you put them. 344 00:20:20.825 --> 00:20:21.512 And yeah, 345 00:20:21.653 --> 00:20:23.544 so it's actually a surprising, 346 00:20:23.794 --> 00:20:24.231 oh wow, 347 00:20:24.325 --> 00:20:26.747 that is actually working nice on the land. 348 00:20:27.122 --> 00:20:29.450 Grass grows taller or... 349 00:20:29.856 --> 00:20:33.660 It stays greener for longer before the dry period arrives. 350 00:20:33.819 --> 00:20:37.385 So people just start to perceive this change, 351 00:20:37.502 --> 00:20:42.365 even if there is not a proper planning and proper monitoring done. 352 00:20:42.451 --> 00:20:46.553 So imagine whether we would collect all this information in addition. 353 00:20:46.928 --> 00:20:47.100 Yeah, 354 00:20:47.256 --> 00:20:50.631 so you really are already observing these positive changes. 355 00:20:51.819 --> 00:20:58.537 But could you give us the scientific explanation of why having these animals grazing that land? 356 00:20:59.320 --> 00:21:02.745 leads to higher growth of grass, 357 00:21:02.963 --> 00:21:05.905 more density and longer survival rates, 358 00:21:05.906 --> 00:21:10.287 like all of these positive changes you see and that you want for a healthy ecosystem. 359 00:21:11.014 --> 00:21:19.334 Could you really try and give us that scientific explanation of what is happening to the microbiology that generates that? 360 00:21:21.356 --> 00:21:22.337 Doing this podcast, 361 00:21:22.577 --> 00:21:28.702 releasing new episodes every week and bringing to you stories of regenerative pioneers and experts, 362 00:21:29.143 --> 00:21:29.323 well, 363 00:21:29.604 --> 00:21:35.128 it takes a lot of work and a lot of time and I could not do it without the support of Soil Capital. 364 00:21:36.010 --> 00:21:47.635 Soil Capital is a company that helps accelerating the transition to regenerative agriculture that we so desperately need by financially rewarding farmers who improve things like soil health and biodiversity. 365 00:21:48.652 --> 00:21:49.952 They are an amazing company. 366 00:21:50.032 --> 00:21:55.334 I'm genuinely a big fan of their work and I'm very proud to be partnering with them for the Deep Seed podcast. 367 00:21:56.713 --> 00:21:59.072 I was saying animals are a very powerful tool. 368 00:21:59.752 --> 00:22:04.494 And pastures and all the savannas, 369 00:22:04.619 --> 00:22:06.228 all the grasslands, 370 00:22:06.322 --> 00:22:08.650 grasslands co-evolve with animals. 371 00:22:09.744 --> 00:22:12.916 And if you imagine a savanna like this 372 00:22:13.275 --> 00:22:13.916 Serengeti 373 00:22:14.431 --> 00:22:15.291 National Park, 374 00:22:15.353 --> 00:22:15.994 for example, 375 00:22:16.260 --> 00:22:16.885 in Africa, 376 00:22:17.681 --> 00:22:18.072 You would... 377 00:22:18.440 --> 00:22:22.303 see these animals on the land moving in blocks, 378 00:22:22.404 --> 00:22:22.666 right? 379 00:22:22.744 --> 00:22:23.986 Like they do not just, 380 00:22:24.365 --> 00:22:31.951 you would not see a buffalo or a gnu just running around by itself and just wandering and grazing a little bit of this and a little bit of that. 381 00:22:32.037 --> 00:22:32.154 No, 382 00:22:32.795 --> 00:22:33.576 they're all pack. 383 00:22:33.756 --> 00:22:38.459 There's a pack because they need to protect themselves from predation. 384 00:22:38.787 --> 00:22:40.568 That's how nature evolved. 385 00:22:40.881 --> 00:22:47.443 And it's this pack behavior that makes the animals so great. 386 00:22:47.692 --> 00:23:05.226 for the land because now if you imagine a grazing event what happened is that you have a bunch of animals whether it's sheep or cows herbivores anyway being in an area feeling the predation pressure 387 00:23:05.382 --> 00:23:15.773 which could be before in africa is a lion or wolves but it can also be the human presence you know just shepherding like good shepherd of the land 388 00:23:16.296 --> 00:23:17.617 or electric fence. 389 00:23:17.777 --> 00:23:20.461 You just make sure that the animal stays in one spot, 390 00:23:21.500 --> 00:23:23.004 and that's what they do there. 391 00:23:23.043 --> 00:23:23.824 So they eat, 392 00:23:24.226 --> 00:23:24.984 everything is there. 393 00:23:25.023 --> 00:23:26.109 They do not select. 394 00:23:26.383 --> 00:23:29.547 So they do not overgraze some plants, 395 00:23:29.570 --> 00:23:32.054 and they do not undergraze some other plants. 396 00:23:34.312 --> 00:23:39.672 They fertilize the place with their droppings and the urines. 397 00:23:40.359 --> 00:23:41.015 And basically, 398 00:23:41.765 --> 00:23:43.687 if they do a well job, 399 00:23:44.390 --> 00:23:45.218 when they move, 400 00:23:45.800 --> 00:23:47.542 When they've been moved to the next patch, 401 00:23:48.002 --> 00:23:49.264 you want to see a mess. 402 00:23:50.586 --> 00:23:53.047 The land needs to look like a mess. 403 00:23:53.168 --> 00:23:55.129 There's been trampling going on, 404 00:23:55.426 --> 00:23:56.433 there's been grazing, 405 00:23:56.527 --> 00:23:57.473 a lot of grazing. 406 00:23:57.894 --> 00:24:00.652 There's been all these drops left in there. 407 00:24:01.176 --> 00:24:05.613 And what has been created like that is the perfect natural compost. 408 00:24:07.285 --> 00:24:10.223 Microbiology in the soil has all the nutrients, 409 00:24:10.224 --> 00:24:11.769 it has enough nitrogen, 410 00:24:11.785 --> 00:24:13.019 it has enough carbon. 411 00:24:13.360 --> 00:24:19.164 It has enough fresh material because of all the trampled grass that is kind of in contact with the soil, 412 00:24:19.227 --> 00:24:21.008 that means with the microorganisms. 413 00:24:21.387 --> 00:24:26.652 There is humidity because water arrives into the systems. 414 00:24:27.192 --> 00:24:35.887 There is also inoculation of new microorganisms because the herbivores in the saliva and in their mouth, 415 00:24:35.996 --> 00:24:38.090 they bring new microbial communities, 416 00:24:38.106 --> 00:24:40.231 so there is diversification going on. 417 00:24:40.949 --> 00:24:41.793 There is also 418 00:24:42.412 --> 00:24:52.339 seeding for the next raining event because with their droppings they do drop seeds of plants that maybe they were not in this place where they've been grazing before. 419 00:24:53.003 --> 00:24:55.784 So and grass, 420 00:24:56.885 --> 00:24:59.815 grasses that have been grazed they receive this signal. 421 00:25:00.192 --> 00:25:01.854 They need to grow again. 422 00:25:02.533 --> 00:25:03.256 So what they do, 423 00:25:04.295 --> 00:25:13.326 they ask a little bit of energy from the root system in order to put much more vegetable aerial mass. 424 00:25:13.623 --> 00:25:14.506 And so they grow, 425 00:25:14.905 --> 00:25:19.670 and then they grow faster from the vegetative part. 426 00:25:20.030 --> 00:25:22.998 And then if they have enough resting time, 427 00:25:23.014 --> 00:25:25.155 which is crucial in the animal management, 428 00:25:25.514 --> 00:25:26.623 they can again... 429 00:25:27.004 --> 00:25:29.544 put some resources into the root systems. 430 00:25:29.665 --> 00:25:36.764 And so one plant which is grazed in the proper way has time to grow. 431 00:25:37.608 --> 00:25:47.210 Whereas if a plant is all been it's been over grazed that means we don't allow enough time to the plant to recover from the grazing event. 432 00:25:48.335 --> 00:25:55.335 This plant will ask too much from the root system which will become smaller and smaller and then eventually the plant will die. 433 00:25:55.506 --> 00:25:55.631 So. 434 00:25:56.360 --> 00:26:00.724 That's why pastures look very low in biodiversity, 435 00:26:01.505 --> 00:26:07.314 because this extensive continuous grazing is not good for the grassland. 436 00:26:07.611 --> 00:26:10.376 That's why we lose plant biodiversity, 437 00:26:10.454 --> 00:26:11.134 for example. 438 00:26:12.720 --> 00:26:14.173 On the drive here to the farm, 439 00:26:14.533 --> 00:26:17.314 Massimiliano was telling me that he's growing a lot of this, 440 00:26:18.095 --> 00:26:19.783 I think the name in English is honeysuckle. 441 00:26:20.158 --> 00:26:20.751 Honeysuckle. 442 00:26:21.798 --> 00:26:24.454 And he told me it was one of the best plants to... 443 00:26:25.556 --> 00:26:26.597 restore soil health, 444 00:26:27.077 --> 00:26:30.259 especially in the ecosystem where it's difficult to have animals here. 445 00:26:31.142 --> 00:26:31.903 Could you explain why? 446 00:26:32.884 --> 00:26:33.122 Yes, 447 00:26:33.165 --> 00:26:34.767 the honeysuckle, 448 00:26:35.103 --> 00:26:36.368 it's a leguminous, 449 00:26:37.087 --> 00:26:41.845 so it's a leguminous plant and their speciality is that they do, 450 00:26:42.892 --> 00:26:46.438 they make an agreement with bacteria, 451 00:26:47.110 --> 00:26:52.985 which basically are able to trap nitrogen from the air, 452 00:26:53.204 --> 00:26:53.985 these bacteria. 453 00:26:54.920 --> 00:27:00.303 And this nitrogen cannot be used by the plant unless it's transformed into a different type of compound. 454 00:27:00.565 --> 00:27:02.569 And so they live together. 455 00:27:02.710 --> 00:27:08.874 The bacteria have a cozy space in the root system of the honeysuckle's roots. 456 00:27:09.491 --> 00:27:13.561 And that's because they don't really like oxygen conditions. 457 00:27:13.562 --> 00:27:17.686 So oxygen is not welcome for these bacteria in order for them to... 458 00:27:18.200 --> 00:27:24.124 transform the nitrogen into a compound that the plant can take nutrients out of it. 459 00:27:24.386 --> 00:27:27.726 So in this symbiotic agreement, 460 00:27:28.429 --> 00:27:32.695 the honeysuckle plant can have nitrogen, 461 00:27:32.812 --> 00:27:40.515 it's like a nitrogen fertilizer addition just by living together in this symbiosis with this bacteria. 462 00:27:40.859 --> 00:27:41.390 And therefore 463 00:27:41.781 --> 00:27:45.687 It doesn't need much as an external input to grow. 464 00:27:46.327 --> 00:27:47.234 And the best thing... 465 00:27:47.684 --> 00:28:06.381 it's also that it's kind of when there is abundance is shared so these benefits are not just taken by the plant but also the surrounding soil community close to the root systems it's more alive and more active so it's kind of also an horizontal benefits 466 00:28:06.584 --> 00:28:13.568 that moves on the soil fantastic we're gonna close on this thank you so much for your time and expertise that was great 467 00:28:14.888 --> 00:28:15.509 My pleasure. 468 00:28:15.569 --> 00:28:19.252 Thank you for this opportunity to talk a little bit about soil life. 469 00:28:20.975 --> 00:28:22.936 Thank you so much for listening to this conversation. 470 00:28:23.139 --> 00:28:23.834 Until the end, 471 00:28:24.318 --> 00:28:27.342 I really hope you enjoyed it and you found it valuable. 472 00:28:28.100 --> 00:28:28.561 If you did, 473 00:28:28.920 --> 00:28:37.373 don't hesitate to support me and my work by subscribing to The Deep Seed right here on your favorite streaming platform or anywhere on social media. 474 00:28:38.311 --> 00:28:41.967 See you next week for the next episode of the Val di Bella miniseries. 475 00:28:42.561 --> 00:28:43.279 In the meantime... 476 00:28:43.464 --> 00:28:46.147 Take great care of yourselves and see you soon.