By disturbing the soil with tilling and conventional agriculture that comes and disturbs the soil surface and so on,
what we do,
we bring the ecosystem back to day zero.
Each time,
pastures co-evolve with animals.
So the grass just grows better if it's bitten,
you know,
if it's been grazed on.
And managing complexity is what we have to do.
Welcome back to The Deep Seed.
Last month I had the amazing opportunity of visiting a very special place called Val di Bella.
It's an organic farming cooperative located in the heart of Sicily.
I spent a few days there and I was given the chance to speak to a lot of different people within the cooperative.
Of course I decided to record these conversations and to release them here on the Deep Seed as a mini-series about Val di Bella.
Today is episode 4 of this mini-series and I'm talking to Eleonora Kiri.
She's a soil microbiology expert who's also a teacher here at the Val di Bella School of Agroecology.
She's amazing at explaining the complexity of soil life in a manner that is very clear and easy to understand,
especially if you're kind of new to these topics.
This episode was made in partnership with Soil Capital.
I'm your host Raphael.
And this is the Deep Seed Podcast.
I'm Eleonora Chiri,
I'm a soil microbiologist and
I am part of the scientific committee of the
Practical School of
Agroecology of the
Valdibella Co-op,
which is this independent organization that promotes
knowledge sharing among the agricultural community and also people that are curious to know about how systems can work in this agroecology framework.
What's the one piece of information you wish every farmer knew about soil microbiology?
Well,
I wish every farmer would know and understand that it needs soil microbiology,
it needs life in soil.
as such,
exist only thanks to the biological component.
In fact,
the English language helps us so much to distinguish between dirt and soil.
So we have two words to mention this one element.
And dirt is just like,
you know,
if you put a pile of dirt on your hand,
it's this destructured soil.
It has no structure or shape on itself.
And then when you talk about soil,
you think of this sort of mud cake.
color wise very rich and fluffy soil and that soil has structure because there's organic matter into it and the organic matter comes because life it's part of the soil system for someone who's not
familiar with this concept that there is a difference that there's a soil that is alive could you describe this ecosystem in the soil like what makes it so special yes just imagine at
Community,
like a small village,
let's put it this way,
with not many inhabitants,
but just those that functionally have an important role.
So if you take away the baker from a community where no one else could replace his place,
then little by little the community crumbles.
So we can imagine the biological community in soils.
These microelements,
these microorganisms,
they're all needed because they all play a functional role.
And on top of this,
we can build with more organisms,
which are a little larger and slightly larger and so on.
And then we cover all the traffic network of soils that also brings life to the...
above the surface of the soil.
So then we can start embracing the larger animals,
the herbivores,
the humankind.
So we should imagine the soil life community as the basis for the life on top of the soil.
I read in a book recently that there is a symbiosis that appeared over hundreds of millions of years of evolution on Earth between plants and soil microbiology.
Right,
that they both function together in the benefit of each other.
Could you maybe sort of describe this symbiosis?
Yes.
So let's start from plants.
Plants are a very,
very unique or special type of organisms that live on our planet.
They're among different from...
All the other organisms,
they are fixed in one place.
They don't have legs.
Plants cannot run away from an environment which is unhealthy or not productive for them.
So they need to create conditions to be happy in there.
And this happens thanks to a very good living agreement with the microorganism in the soil.
It's many fungi that work with plants in exchanging nutrients and having...
a reciprocal benefit out of it and where fungi are present,
bacteria come as well.
So we're talking still about the macro organisms,
so part of life in the soil and everyone has his role and then only when they synchronize with each other they can really cover the all nutrient cycles and nutrients can move also from one plant to another.
So it's a benefit that it doesn't stay local.
It also...
travels around along the fungi iphys,
the micro-reezes,
and so the nearby plants can benefit as well from what the plants before in the row it's doing well with the microorganisms.
What happens to this soil life?
You describe this complex diverse life where every organisms play a different role.
And it's like a complex community.
If you take out parts of the community,
it starts to crumble.
What happened over the last 70,
80 years with conventional agriculture,
the use of mechanization,
chemicals and all of that?
What happens to that community in the soil?
So what happened basically is that we pushed this community dynamics to benefit just one part of the community,
which is usually like the bacteria they are.
Amazing,
they're fast growing,
they're pioneers.
Those are the ones that we can find in the most remote and livable place on Earth.
And this happens against the evolutions and the development of the fungi community in the soil.
And so if we imagine a cake with a certain slice which is allocated for bacteria,
and the rest of the pie...
it's allocated for fungi in a healthy soil ecosystem,
we have to imagine this cake sort of be able to expanding and receding depending on the needs of the ecosystem.
So in an early stage ecosystem,
you need a lot of bacteria because they are those that are able to live from air as well.
They are able to get food out of air and they are those that establish early plants.
And then you need to switch into a more established community.
You need succession to happen.
If we want plants to establish,
trees to establish,
we really have to move forward with this soil community as well.
And by disturbing the soil with tilling and...
conventional agriculture that comes and disturbs the soil surface and so on,
what we do,
we bring the ecosystem back to day zero each time.
I want to plant something new and I just go around with the till.
I just go back in my succession.
So bacteria will come,
they establish,
they will grow fast.
Fungi we try to establish as well and create these highways of nutrients distributions.
then they will be cut and destructed again the next time I disturb salt and I go back.
So it's an ecosystem that doesn't grow basically.
Okay,
so to improve this ecosystem we need to favor the growth of fungi communities and networks.
What would you say are the key elements,
the key farming practices that favor the growth of these communities?
First of all,
and most importantly,
is avoiding soil disturbance.
Of course,
in the ideal case,
there's no soil disturbance,
but we're dealing with farms that also have to keep making a living also in this transitional phase.
So minimum disturbance practices can help tremendously not to disrupt this communication network that the fungi are able to establish in the soil.
So there's plenty of ways that one could work.
in decompacting the soil by acting,
not just flipping around the whole soil surface.
So there are machines that allow you with hooks to go deep into the soil at about 30 centimeters of depth,
or you can regulate this and just create some air,
some space for the plants to establish their root.
without completely disrupting the surface.
And this,
with time,
it helps the soil to accumulate more organic matter because that's what happens with the living biomasters.
Living biomasters,
dead biomasters,
we need fungi,
mainly,
that process this matter.
And then more can stay in the soil.
So the more,
the higher is the residence time of this soil organic matter in the soil,
the better it is for it.
Okay.
More specifically here at Val di Bella,
how have you been monitoring the health of the soils of the different farmers here?
And have you seen an improvement in certain metrics or certain measurements?
So I wish I could give you an answer,
but we're not there yet with the community of the farmers at Val di Bella.
There's also the main job of the school at the moment.
It's really to deliver the message.
are very,
very much needed approaches to soil health.
And we're having success because we say,
you know,
that the most difficult things to change is the mind of the farmer.
And that's really where the change needs to happen.
And so by creating these events of community and knowledge sharing,
talking about these techniques,
agroecological techniques,
we start to get the interest of those that actually work the land.
And the vision of the Val di Bello and the school is to have a pilot farm.
And we want to put into practice all this knowledge that we have in just one farm so that we can start monitoring together with the students.
And so coming back,
you know,
every month,
every season,
we will all see the signs of regeneration.
Okay,
I realized just now while I was editing this episode that there's a crucial piece of information missing here.
First,
a very quick recap about Valdibella.
It's a farming cooperative located in Sicily that includes about 40 different farmers and a whole range of other people within the cooperative.
Some people in finance,
in marketing,
in sales,
in hospitality,
for example,
but also a range of experts in ecology and so on,
microbiology and climate.
climatology and things like that.
And all of these people make up the Val di Bella cooperative.
And they decided together to buy a farm from a local conventional farmer who's now retiring.
They will manage this farm together as a cooperative.
And what Eleonora is explaining here is that they're going to use this farm as a pilot farm to teach.
agroecology and soil science to everyone within the cooperative.
They'll be able to start with a T0 assessment,
collect a whole range of measurements and observations,
and then keep measuring and monitoring together on a regular basis.
And
I think it's such an amazing idea because it will give everyone,
regardless of their job or their function in the cooperative,
An opportunity to get hands-on experience and knowledge about
Agroecology,
such a cool idea.
What have been the most recent exciting discoveries in the world of soil science?
Like if you were meeting with fellow colleagues,
experts in soil science,
what would you be discussing?
I think what is great,
the greatest thing of our generation,
let's say of these times,
is the understanding of how systemic the approach is.
How we should move away from just this reductionist approach of looking at the functional group in the soil and just describing down to the super refined detail of what they're doing and how they're doing and put them into context.
Put them into the context of soil dynamics,
seriously.
And there are tools that now allow you to study,
you know,
you do like in...
You can do this dry run on softwares on how the community could actually behave,
but then the field researchers is actually looking at confirming and reproducing these results.
And this is,
I think,
is the biggest understanding,
this multidisciplinary approach,
which is not just there is one chemist and one microbiologist and then a geochemist that work together,
but it's the common.
What is common is the project,
it is a systemic approach.
And that's something that
I guess is great about this agroecology school here,
is that you're bringing together experts from different fields.
With farmers,
with students,
with a whole community of people and everyone is involved in the conversation.
So I guess you're breaking down the silos and you're creating a more holistic discussion,
right?
Yeah,
absolutely.
Managing complexity is what we have to do.
There's no other solutions.
And the sooner we stop fighting this concept and embrace it,
then it becomes a strength of the conversation.
Myself,
this is my very personal experience.
at BIM.
an academic researcher for many years and the missing bits over there was like this bridging in communication okay we're studying soil ecosystems and see how healthy they how they look like when they're healthy and then and
then then we just keep telling each other this stuff to each other at conference you know like and where are the actors that then they put this stuff into practice and how most important can we
deliver this information,
like where is this the connection in language also.
And so this is actually a very difficult but very exciting part of the conversation,
like being able to put together in one room during a day,
around the table with fine food,
also everyone that plays in this ecosystem.
And so when you participate to these teaching events,
That include farmers as well.
What is the information you bring that gets the most reaction from them?
Positive,
negative,
like the one thing that sparks the most conversation and debate.
Wow.
So we are very provocative on that,
I guess.
My personal experience,
it's like the introduction of animal in the farm system that grows,
let's say,
vegetables or fruits.
It's a...
It's strange,
but it is the most provocative one,
because in the last 50 years,
the agricultural system completely detached from livestock management.
And if we talk to our grandfathers,
they tell us how they were moving the animal in,
like it was a symbiosis with the plant system.
And now,
you know,
with all the agricultural incentive,
Also with the
A lot of what comes from the CAP,
the
European policy for agriculture,
there's a detachment of these two systems.
Animals are not welcome on the land where we grow stuff anymore.
And so we have to overcome the missing inputs of the systems.
with the external input into fertilizer.
We're not even discussing now whether they're organic or not,
but it's an external input that is needed.
And in fact,
pastures co-evolve with animals.
So the grass just grows better if it's bitten,
you know,
if it's been grazed on.
And not just the hay,
this works also for the plants that we're used to,
and trees developed with animals,
co-evolve with animals.
So.
Has there been examples here at Vall di Bella of farmers who integrated animals into their systems?
And have you been able then to observe the positive changes in the landscape?
Yes,
so it's starting to become a thing again,
for example to have sheep grazing between the almond tree growth.
The animals are a very powerful tool though,
so you can go bad or very good depending on how you manage them.
So management is crucial.
You want to make sure that they graze the grass,
that they don't graze the leaves of your trees or even going for fruits if that's the case.
So there should be a very good plan done before.
when you know what is the right time for you to bring the animals in order not to damage your production of almonds in this case,
but also to make sure there's no overgraze on the land or the animal impact,
it doesn't turn into negative,
you just want to keep it on a positive side.
And there's just a few elements you have to keep into account and then you have it.
It's actually...
Very easy to plan,
properly manage grazing with the animals.
And so now we're not there yet.
We're not there where there is a calendar,
let's say,
that is followed and there's not much pre-planning.
But it's more an opportunistic grazing,
but it happens relatively quickly.
at the right time,
such as by instinct,
observing what's happening on the land.
And people are happier with the results rather than being sad.
No one complains about damage,
animal damage on the trees.
That's more like of a urban legend,
you know.
It really depends on what time of the year you put them.
And yeah,
so it's actually a surprising,
oh wow,
that is actually working nice on the land.
Grass grows taller or...
It stays greener for longer before the dry period arrives.
So people just start to perceive this change,
even if there is not a proper planning and proper monitoring done.
So imagine whether we would collect all this information in addition.
Yeah,
so you really are already observing these positive changes.
But could you give us the scientific explanation of why having these animals grazing that land?
leads to higher growth of grass,
more density and longer survival rates,
like all of these positive changes you see and that you want for a healthy ecosystem.
Could you really try and give us that scientific explanation of what is happening to the microbiology that generates that?
Doing this podcast,
releasing new episodes every week and bringing to you stories of regenerative pioneers and experts,
well,
it takes a lot of work and a lot of time and I could not do it without the support of Soil Capital.
Soil Capital is a company that helps accelerating the transition to regenerative agriculture that we so desperately need by financially rewarding farmers who improve things like soil health and biodiversity.
They are an amazing company.
I'm genuinely a big fan of their work and I'm very proud to be partnering with them for the Deep Seed podcast.
I was saying animals are a very powerful tool.
And pastures and all the savannas,
all the grasslands,
grasslands co-evolve with animals.
And if you imagine a savanna like this
Serengeti
National Park,
for example,
in Africa,
You would...
see these animals on the land moving in blocks,
right?
Like they do not just,
you would not see a buffalo or a gnu just running around by itself and just wandering and grazing a little bit of this and a little bit of that.
No,
they're all pack.
There's a pack because they need to protect themselves from predation.
That's how nature evolved.
And it's this pack behavior that makes the animals so great.
for the land because now if you imagine a grazing event what happened is that you have a bunch of animals whether it's sheep or cows herbivores anyway being in an area feeling the predation pressure
which could be before in africa is a lion or wolves but it can also be the human presence you know just shepherding like good shepherd of the land
or electric fence.
You just make sure that the animal stays in one spot,
and that's what they do there.
So they eat,
everything is there.
They do not select.
So they do not overgraze some plants,
and they do not undergraze some other plants.
They fertilize the place with their droppings and the urines.
And basically,
if they do a well job,
when they move,
When they've been moved to the next patch,
you want to see a mess.
The land needs to look like a mess.
There's been trampling going on,
there's been grazing,
a lot of grazing.
There's been all these drops left in there.
And what has been created like that is the perfect natural compost.
Microbiology in the soil has all the nutrients,
it has enough nitrogen,
it has enough carbon.
It has enough fresh material because of all the trampled grass that is kind of in contact with the soil,
that means with the microorganisms.
There is humidity because water arrives into the systems.
There is also inoculation of new microorganisms because the herbivores in the saliva and in their mouth,
they bring new microbial communities,
so there is diversification going on.
There is also
seeding for the next raining event because with their droppings they do drop seeds of plants that maybe they were not in this place where they've been grazing before.
So and grass,
grasses that have been grazed they receive this signal.
They need to grow again.
So what they do,
they ask a little bit of energy from the root system in order to put much more vegetable aerial mass.
And so they grow,
and then they grow faster from the vegetative part.
And then if they have enough resting time,
which is crucial in the animal management,
they can again...
put some resources into the root systems.
And so one plant which is grazed in the proper way has time to grow.
Whereas if a plant is all been it's been over grazed that means we don't allow enough time to the plant to recover from the grazing event.
This plant will ask too much from the root system which will become smaller and smaller and then eventually the plant will die.
So.
That's why pastures look very low in biodiversity,
because this extensive continuous grazing is not good for the grassland.
That's why we lose plant biodiversity,
for example.
On the drive here to the farm,
Massimiliano was telling me that he's growing a lot of this,
I think the name in English is honeysuckle.
Honeysuckle.
And he told me it was one of the best plants to...
restore soil health,
especially in the ecosystem where it's difficult to have animals here.
Could you explain why?
Yes,
the honeysuckle,
it's a leguminous,
so it's a leguminous plant and their speciality is that they do,
they make an agreement with bacteria,
which basically are able to trap nitrogen from the air,
these bacteria.
And this nitrogen cannot be used by the plant unless it's transformed into a different type of compound.
And so they live together.
The bacteria have a cozy space in the root system of the honeysuckle's roots.
And that's because they don't really like oxygen conditions.
So oxygen is not welcome for these bacteria in order for them to...
transform the nitrogen into a compound that the plant can take nutrients out of it.
So in this symbiotic agreement,
the honeysuckle plant can have nitrogen,
it's like a nitrogen fertilizer addition just by living together in this symbiosis with this bacteria.
And therefore
It doesn't need much as an external input to grow.
And the best thing...
it's also that it's kind of when there is abundance is shared so these benefits are not just taken by the plant but also the surrounding soil community close to the root systems it's more alive and more active so it's kind of also an horizontal benefits
that moves on the soil fantastic we're gonna close on this thank you so much for your time and expertise that was great
My pleasure.
Thank you for this opportunity to talk a little bit about soil life.
Thank you so much for listening to this conversation.
Until the end,
I really hope you enjoyed it and you found it valuable.
If you did,
don't hesitate to support me and my work by subscribing to The Deep Seed right here on your favorite streaming platform or anywhere on social media.
See you next week for the next episode of the Val di Bella miniseries.
In the meantime...
Take great care of yourselves and see you soon.