WEBVTT 1 00:00:06.510 --> 00:00:08.212 Welcome to the Be Good Podcast, 2 00:00:08.592 --> 00:00:14.580 where we explore the application of behavioral economics for good in order to nudge better business and better lives. 3 00:00:16.096 --> 00:00:18.760 Hi and welcome to this episode of Be Good, 4 00:00:19.081 --> 00:00:21.965 brought to you by BVA Nudge Consulting, 5 00:00:22.186 --> 00:00:28.976 a global consultancy specializing in the application of behavioral science for successful behavior change. 6 00:00:29.777 --> 00:00:33.823 Every month we get to speak with a leader in the field of behavioral science, 7 00:00:34.144 --> 00:00:38.771 psychology and neuroscience in order to get to know more about them, 8 00:00:39.212 --> 00:00:41.996 their work and its application to emerging issues. 9 00:00:42.721 --> 00:00:44.005 My name is Eric Singler, 10 00:00:44.186 --> 00:00:46.634 founder and CEO of BVA Nudge Consulting, 11 00:00:47.135 --> 00:00:48.620 and with me is my colleague, 12 00:00:48.960 --> 00:00:49.964 Suzanne Kirkendall, 13 00:00:50.607 --> 00:00:53.480 CEO of BVA Nudge Consulting North America. 14 00:00:54.282 --> 00:00:54.489 Hi, 15 00:00:54.592 --> 00:00:54.820 Suzanne. 16 00:00:55.161 --> 00:00:55.286 Hi, 17 00:00:55.410 --> 00:00:55.659 Eric. 18 00:00:55.860 --> 00:00:57.848 It is so great to be joining you today, 19 00:00:58.028 --> 00:01:01.900 and I am truly honored to be introducing this episode's guest. 20 00:01:02.681 --> 00:01:05.994 We're going to be speaking with an absolute giant of our field, 21 00:01:06.095 --> 00:01:07.420 Professor Cass Sunstein. 22 00:01:08.562 --> 00:01:12.229 Cass is the Robert Walmsley University Professor at Harvard Law School, 23 00:01:12.630 --> 00:01:16.899 where he founded and directs the Program on Behavioral Economics and Public Policy. 24 00:01:18.021 --> 00:01:20.024 From 2009 to 2012, 25 00:01:20.204 --> 00:01:24.632 he was administrator of the White House Office of Information and Regulatory Affairs, 26 00:01:25.173 --> 00:01:29.540 where he pioneered the application of behavioral science to public policy in the United States. 27 00:01:30.892 --> 00:01:31.715 As many of you know, 28 00:01:31.876 --> 00:01:34.364 Cass is also the author of over 20 books, 29 00:01:34.926 --> 00:01:38.176 including the worldwide bestsellers Nudge with Richard Thaler, 30 00:01:38.176 --> 00:01:39.901 and in 2021, 31 00:01:39.901 --> 00:01:44.275 the book Noise with professors Olivier Sibony and the late Daniel Kahneman, 32 00:01:44.415 --> 00:01:46.343 who has sadly very recently passed away. 33 00:01:47.748 --> 00:01:50.257 Today we're going to be speaking about Cass's latest book, 34 00:01:50.498 --> 00:01:52.364 co-authored with Tali Sherritt, 35 00:01:52.905 --> 00:01:56.317 professor of cognitive neuroscience at UCL and MIT, 36 00:01:56.959 --> 00:01:58.163 called Look Again, 37 00:01:58.545 --> 00:02:00.572 The Power of Noticing What Was Always There. 38 00:02:01.339 --> 00:02:01.642 Cass, 39 00:02:01.682 --> 00:02:03.136 welcome to our Be Good podcast. 40 00:02:03.676 --> 00:02:04.413 Pleasure to be here. 41 00:02:05.376 --> 00:02:05.699 Cass, 42 00:02:05.739 --> 00:02:07.976 a big thank you for your participation. 43 00:02:08.356 --> 00:02:08.778 We are, 44 00:02:09.139 --> 00:02:10.344 as I was mentioning, 45 00:02:10.404 --> 00:02:13.556 truly honored to have you as our guest. 46 00:02:14.517 --> 00:02:23.193 It has been many years since we first met at your inaugural keynote for our Nudge in France conference at the 47 00:02:23.534 --> 00:02:24.576 École Normale Supérieure. 48 00:02:24.676 --> 00:02:26.993 I don't know if you remember, 49 00:02:27.154 --> 00:02:27.416 Cass. 50 00:02:28.765 --> 00:02:29.327 Since then, 51 00:02:29.387 --> 00:02:33.380 you have kindly participated in this podcast twice already. 52 00:02:34.121 --> 00:02:42.436 You are our most regular guest and you also delivered the highly appreciated keynote at our conference, 53 00:02:42.436 --> 00:02:44.960 the Human Advantage Conference in 2022. 54 00:02:46.079 --> 00:02:51.596 So it is with great personal pleasure and gratitude that we welcome you again. 55 00:02:52.297 --> 00:02:53.139 And again, 56 00:02:53.179 --> 00:02:59.556 a big thank you for giving us and our listeners some of your precious time again. 57 00:03:00.237 --> 00:03:03.356 A great pleasure to be here and the honor is all mine. 58 00:03:03.576 --> 00:03:04.795 I really am grateful to you. 59 00:03:06.594 --> 00:03:08.958 Before discussing your new book, 60 00:03:09.298 --> 00:03:12.524 I'd like to address a very sad topic, 61 00:03:12.804 --> 00:03:16.951 which is the passing of Daniel Kahneman just last week, 62 00:03:17.572 --> 00:03:24.031 the giant of our field with whom you were very close. 63 00:03:24.612 --> 00:03:26.715 So can you tell us, 64 00:03:26.855 --> 00:03:27.135 Cass, 65 00:03:27.235 --> 00:03:28.657 from your perspective, 66 00:03:28.737 --> 00:03:33.764 what Daniel Kahneman's contribution has been to behavioral science? 67 00:03:34.351 --> 00:03:34.572 Well, 68 00:03:34.812 --> 00:03:40.388 I think it's fair to say that Darwin contributed a fair bit to the theory of evolution. 69 00:03:41.308 --> 00:03:42.655 And in thinking about... 70 00:03:43.731 --> 00:03:44.352 physics, 71 00:03:45.013 --> 00:03:48.160 Newton was pretty important to that. 72 00:03:49.081 --> 00:03:52.368 Existentialism had something to do with Jean-Paul Sartre. 73 00:03:53.110 --> 00:03:53.371 And 74 00:03:54.074 --> 00:03:54.997 Kahneman is, 75 00:03:55.619 --> 00:03:57.324 with respect to behavioral science, 76 00:03:57.405 --> 00:03:58.388 like those people. 77 00:03:59.250 --> 00:04:00.073 That is to say, 78 00:04:00.153 --> 00:04:03.442 he's a giant and a founder is accurate, 79 00:04:03.563 --> 00:04:05.368 but it's actually too small. 80 00:04:05.829 --> 00:04:10.344 It's that his unbelievably fertile mind. 81 00:04:10.699 --> 00:04:17.816 And his combination of breadth and depth is defining for behavioral science. 82 00:04:17.856 --> 00:04:18.197 In fact, 83 00:04:18.197 --> 00:04:22.853 the very term behavioral science as the one that organizes our efforts, 84 00:04:22.873 --> 00:04:23.676 that comes from him. 85 00:04:24.668 --> 00:04:27.016 There were various earlier efforts, 86 00:04:27.257 --> 00:04:29.024 and he thought that was the best term. 87 00:04:29.684 --> 00:04:31.626 But the idea of loss aversion, 88 00:04:32.106 --> 00:04:34.468 the idea of heuristics and biases, 89 00:04:34.929 --> 00:04:37.611 the contemporary study of well-being, 90 00:04:38.692 --> 00:04:41.834 the distinction between bias and noise, 91 00:04:43.015 --> 00:04:46.018 work on focusing illusion and adaptation, 92 00:04:46.618 --> 00:04:47.579 all this and 93 00:04:48.140 --> 00:04:53.404 10,001 other things came from that single person. 94 00:04:54.828 --> 00:05:00.364 Why and how he will continue to inspire many researchers worldwide. 95 00:05:01.863 --> 00:05:03.544 No question about that. 96 00:05:03.704 --> 00:05:05.306 So a little like, 97 00:05:05.346 --> 00:05:05.887 I think, 98 00:05:06.687 --> 00:05:07.248 Darwin, 99 00:05:07.408 --> 00:05:20.901 the fertility of his thought and the kind of seeds he planted for other people to help grow into trees and forests and planets in some cases. 100 00:05:21.804 --> 00:05:24.031 This we're kind of seeing right now. 101 00:05:24.212 --> 00:05:26.881 So there's extraordinary work on. 102 00:05:27.966 --> 00:05:30.929 The use of heuristics in medicine and law, 103 00:05:31.971 --> 00:05:32.371 in fact, 104 00:05:32.431 --> 00:05:34.994 unpublished work that is pathbreaking, 105 00:05:35.474 --> 00:05:37.557 and it's founded really on work that 106 00:05:38.057 --> 00:05:39.939 Kahneman did with Tversky, 107 00:05:40.480 --> 00:05:42.242 some of his work on well-being, 108 00:05:42.662 --> 00:05:43.823 what makes people happy, 109 00:05:44.004 --> 00:05:45.225 what makes them satisfied. 110 00:05:46.565 --> 00:05:47.629 what makes them suffer, 111 00:05:48.090 --> 00:05:49.837 whether money's really important, 112 00:05:50.037 --> 00:05:51.121 what else is important. 113 00:05:51.641 --> 00:05:53.094 People don't like commuting, 114 00:05:53.436 --> 00:05:53.920 by the way. 115 00:05:55.443 --> 00:05:56.408 These are things that 116 00:05:57.433 --> 00:05:59.061 Danny, as everyone called him, 117 00:06:00.573 --> 00:06:03.145 did the defining work on. 118 00:06:03.325 --> 00:06:16.664 And I think he would be the first to say that future generations and current young people or active people who aren't so young are going to supersede his work. 119 00:06:17.088 --> 00:06:18.044 That's what he hoped for. 120 00:06:18.846 --> 00:06:25.905 But superseding of work is often because one is standing on the shoulders of a particular giant. 121 00:06:27.583 --> 00:06:35.781 One quality that struck me about Daniel Kahneman is his ability to criticize his own work. 122 00:06:36.441 --> 00:06:37.123 For instance, 123 00:06:37.223 --> 00:06:44.401 some findings from his research published in Thinking Fast and Slow were not replicated in subsequent experiments. 124 00:06:44.982 --> 00:06:48.210 And Kahneman didn't seek to criticize the new results, 125 00:06:48.210 --> 00:06:53.121 but rather to understand them and adjust his own conclusions. 126 00:06:53.745 --> 00:06:56.040 Can you tell us more about this? 127 00:06:57.167 --> 00:06:59.881 Remarkable and very rare quality. 128 00:07:00.602 --> 00:07:00.923 Okay, 129 00:07:01.063 --> 00:07:03.328 so I'm laughing because there's, 130 00:07:03.429 --> 00:07:08.521 let's call it the sanitized version and then the less sanitized version. 131 00:07:09.061 --> 00:07:09.844 So let's start with, 132 00:07:10.084 --> 00:07:12.973 they're both kind of suitable for children, 133 00:07:13.113 --> 00:07:15.681 but we'll start with the sanitized version, 134 00:07:15.881 --> 00:07:17.228 which is that for him, 135 00:07:17.328 --> 00:07:19.941 the truth is what he cared about. 136 00:07:20.182 --> 00:07:21.400 This is actually true. 137 00:07:21.944 --> 00:07:24.901 And so that if he found that something he did. 138 00:07:25.468 --> 00:07:26.470 wasn't right, 139 00:07:27.172 --> 00:07:28.416 either wasn't quite right, 140 00:07:28.456 --> 00:07:29.619 or if it was wrong, 141 00:07:30.181 --> 00:07:37.280 he would be somewhere between welcoming and thrilled to try to figure out what was right. 142 00:07:37.701 --> 00:07:38.583 And at some points, 143 00:07:38.583 --> 00:07:39.085 he said, 144 00:07:39.386 --> 00:07:40.629 I have no sunk costs. 145 00:07:41.131 --> 00:07:42.916 So if he did a lot of work, 146 00:07:42.956 --> 00:07:46.787 and it turned out that it was a failure or a catastrophe, 147 00:07:47.028 --> 00:07:49.174 throwing it away was completely fine. 148 00:07:49.635 --> 00:07:54.205 And if someone found or if he found that his own work wasn't right. 149 00:07:54.659 --> 00:07:57.213 That was something he was completely good with. 150 00:07:57.653 --> 00:07:59.335 The less sanitized version, 151 00:07:59.375 --> 00:08:00.056 I can tell you, 152 00:08:00.176 --> 00:08:02.759 as a frequent collaborator of his, 153 00:08:03.239 --> 00:08:10.888 was he would be brutally critical of the work of his co-authors, 154 00:08:11.728 --> 00:08:16.033 and he was brutally more critical of the work of himself. 155 00:08:16.873 --> 00:08:20.004 So to work with him on a project in retrospect, 156 00:08:20.104 --> 00:08:22.593 it's a miracle that it got published. 157 00:08:23.091 --> 00:08:35.544 because he would spend so much time explaining to himself and his co-author or co-authors why what we were doing was on the wrong track or completely hopeless. 158 00:08:36.005 --> 00:08:37.591 The number of times he would say, 159 00:08:38.033 --> 00:08:39.178 this is terrible. 160 00:08:39.218 --> 00:08:47.069 I don't know how we could have made such an awful mistake in something that we would work on for a number of months that was both 161 00:08:48.221 --> 00:08:50.227 the most fun part of the process, 162 00:08:50.508 --> 00:08:53.517 and the most dandy part of the process. 163 00:08:54.219 --> 00:08:58.512 So there's the openness to new ideas, 164 00:08:58.572 --> 00:09:00.357 let's call that the sanitized version, 165 00:09:00.938 --> 00:09:06.777 and there's also the unlimited capacity for self-criticism. 166 00:09:07.708 --> 00:09:08.631 which was, 167 00:09:08.711 --> 00:09:09.292 I think, 168 00:09:10.335 --> 00:09:13.484 part of why he liked doing academic work, 169 00:09:13.584 --> 00:09:13.865 really. 170 00:09:14.346 --> 00:09:18.405 For some people to be so critical of oneself would be painful. 171 00:09:18.967 --> 00:09:19.570 But for him, 172 00:09:19.670 --> 00:09:20.253 it was, 173 00:09:20.755 --> 00:09:21.016 oh, 174 00:09:22.301 --> 00:09:23.085 that was wrong. 175 00:09:24.144 --> 00:09:25.047 And at one point, 176 00:09:25.167 --> 00:09:26.050 Olivier Siboney, 177 00:09:26.411 --> 00:09:29.179 one of our co-authors on 178 00:09:29.600 --> 00:09:30.867 Noise, it was three of us, 179 00:09:31.410 --> 00:09:33.161 said to Danny, 180 00:09:33.321 --> 00:09:36.181 we're just going around in circles with the aspiration. 181 00:09:37.141 --> 00:09:37.950 And Danny said, 182 00:09:37.970 --> 00:09:38.092 no, 183 00:09:38.173 --> 00:09:38.901 it's a spiral. 184 00:09:39.303 --> 00:09:39.899 It's going up. 185 00:09:40.022 --> 00:09:40.581 It's a spiral. 186 00:09:41.847 --> 00:09:42.821 And they were both right. 187 00:09:44.041 --> 00:09:44.183 Well, 188 00:09:44.345 --> 00:09:45.056 thank you for sharing, 189 00:09:45.097 --> 00:09:45.360 Cass. 190 00:09:46.422 --> 00:09:48.732 We are sorry for the loss of your friend and colleague, 191 00:09:48.752 --> 00:09:49.917 not just a giant in the field. 192 00:09:50.118 --> 00:09:50.582 But yeah, 193 00:09:50.744 --> 00:09:52.377 glad we could be here to learn a little bit more. 194 00:09:53.338 --> 00:09:55.648 So we'd now love to speak about your recent book, 195 00:09:55.849 --> 00:09:56.291 Look Again, 196 00:09:56.552 --> 00:09:58.463 The Power of Noticing What Was Always There, 197 00:09:58.644 --> 00:09:59.956 which was just published a month ago. 198 00:10:00.955 --> 00:10:02.741 And this book is all about habituation. 199 00:10:03.362 --> 00:10:06.572 Can you please first describe the concept of habituation for our listeners? 200 00:10:07.292 --> 00:10:07.634 Okay, 201 00:10:07.734 --> 00:10:12.512 the basic idea is diminishing sensitivity to a stimulus. 202 00:10:13.568 --> 00:10:18.124 So if you go in a room and there's a bad smell in the room, 203 00:10:18.345 --> 00:10:20.793 let's say it's smoke or something you don't like, 204 00:10:21.696 --> 00:10:26.836 in the first seconds and minutes it's going to be a little overwhelming and you're going to think, 205 00:10:27.338 --> 00:10:28.704 I kind of have to leave this room. 206 00:10:29.544 --> 00:10:30.986 After some number of minutes, 207 00:10:31.066 --> 00:10:32.428 maybe 20 or 30, 208 00:10:33.089 --> 00:10:35.612 you won't even smell the smell anymore. 209 00:10:36.475 --> 00:10:37.398 Most people won't. 210 00:10:37.478 --> 00:10:38.601 The neurons, 211 00:10:38.661 --> 00:10:40.566 the olfactory neurons will say, 212 00:10:41.408 --> 00:10:41.909 it's fine, 213 00:10:41.909 --> 00:10:42.952 there's no smell. 214 00:10:43.494 --> 00:10:46.624 If you go in the ocean and the water's really cold, 215 00:10:46.704 --> 00:10:49.012 in the first seconds you'll think, 216 00:10:49.553 --> 00:10:54.252 how can I have made this ridiculous decision to swim in this freezing water? 217 00:10:55.253 --> 00:10:56.419 But after a while, 218 00:10:56.700 --> 00:10:57.765 you'll say to your friends, 219 00:10:57.845 --> 00:10:58.387 come on in, 220 00:10:58.387 --> 00:10:59.392 the water's fine. 221 00:11:00.053 --> 00:11:02.772 And it won't be because you're mean or mischievous. 222 00:11:03.403 --> 00:11:05.772 And because the water really will be fine, 223 00:11:05.832 --> 00:11:08.060 you'll get used to the cold. 224 00:11:08.300 --> 00:11:11.720 This is true for hot water in a hot shower or bath. 225 00:11:12.341 --> 00:11:18.196 It's true for encountering things that are new and fantastic, 226 00:11:18.397 --> 00:11:19.500 like you're on vacation. 227 00:11:19.840 --> 00:11:24.460 The first period is off the charts great. 228 00:11:24.701 --> 00:11:26.768 But after you've been on a great vacation, 229 00:11:26.868 --> 00:11:28.393 let's say even in Paris, 230 00:11:28.995 --> 00:11:30.340 after a few days, 231 00:11:30.683 --> 00:11:32.137 the Parisness of Paris. 232 00:11:32.704 --> 00:11:36.960 is less astonishing to you than it was on the first day or two. 233 00:11:37.541 --> 00:11:39.360 And this is also true of terrible things. 234 00:11:39.661 --> 00:11:43.110 So if you encounter some unkindness or, 235 00:11:43.170 --> 00:11:43.592 let's say, 236 00:11:43.712 --> 00:11:46.560 some terrible inefficiency at work, 237 00:11:47.161 --> 00:11:48.086 and it's repeated, 238 00:11:48.729 --> 00:11:50.699 the first encounter will be, 239 00:11:51.261 --> 00:11:53.420 how can this possibly be true in the world? 240 00:11:54.041 --> 00:11:55.588 And then after a week, 241 00:11:55.668 --> 00:11:56.030 you'll think, 242 00:11:56.150 --> 00:11:56.351 oh, 243 00:11:56.934 --> 00:11:58.360 I guess that's what it's like. 244 00:11:58.902 --> 00:12:02.348 So we show reduced sensitivity to things, 245 00:12:02.829 --> 00:12:04.331 including misinformation, 246 00:12:04.452 --> 00:12:05.574 including corruption, 247 00:12:06.195 --> 00:12:07.357 including beauty, 248 00:12:07.697 --> 00:12:09.260 including lying. 249 00:12:10.309 --> 00:12:11.460 And before I hand off. 250 00:12:12.659 --> 00:12:15.607 to Eric to discuss the content in detail. 251 00:12:16.349 --> 00:12:21.329 Could you please tell us the one key learning that you want our audience to remember after our conversation? 252 00:12:21.329 --> 00:12:22.516 If they remember nothing else, 253 00:12:22.616 --> 00:12:23.399 what should they take away? 254 00:12:23.840 --> 00:12:26.870 The dishabituation is a very great thing. 255 00:12:27.513 --> 00:12:28.436 That's a mouthful, 256 00:12:28.836 --> 00:12:35.556 but it means if you can find a way to get distance on things that are fantastic in your life, 257 00:12:36.018 --> 00:12:37.865 to which you become habituated, 258 00:12:37.945 --> 00:12:39.271 they will re-sparkle. 259 00:12:39.853 --> 00:12:40.536 They will look 260 00:12:41.163 --> 00:12:43.788 full of color and magnificence again, 261 00:12:44.410 --> 00:12:46.454 and to dishabituate and see, 262 00:12:47.116 --> 00:12:47.737 let's say, 263 00:12:48.499 --> 00:12:57.500 a friendship or a partnership or a neighborhood or a job as if you were seeing it for the first time, 264 00:12:58.081 --> 00:13:00.250 that's a great gift to yourself. 265 00:13:01.173 --> 00:13:02.960 So absence does make the heart grow fonder. 266 00:13:04.174 --> 00:13:04.495 Well, 267 00:13:04.856 --> 00:13:12.072 absence or either real breaks or breaks that are in your head. 268 00:13:12.773 --> 00:13:15.936 So a hero of our book is Julia Roberts, 269 00:13:16.056 --> 00:13:17.638 the actor who, 270 00:13:17.918 --> 00:13:19.339 in an interview in the 271 00:13:20.080 --> 00:13:22.302 New York Times not terribly long ago, 272 00:13:22.923 --> 00:13:27.227 said that her perfect day involved getting her kids ready for school, 273 00:13:27.708 --> 00:13:29.269 making lunch for them, 274 00:13:30.250 --> 00:13:32.072 having lunch with her husband. 275 00:13:32.698 --> 00:13:34.420 And then she stopped herself and said, 276 00:13:34.841 --> 00:13:35.802 this is boring. 277 00:13:36.403 --> 00:13:36.823 But she said, 278 00:13:36.843 --> 00:13:37.665 because of my job, 279 00:13:37.685 --> 00:13:38.265 I'm an actor. 280 00:13:38.306 --> 00:13:40.248 I go away for weeks on end. 281 00:13:40.288 --> 00:13:44.314 I come back and it's surrounded by pixie dust. 282 00:13:44.494 --> 00:13:45.616 It re-sparkles. 283 00:13:46.488 --> 00:13:46.608 So 284 00:13:47.150 --> 00:13:51.244 I'd say absence makes the heart go fonder is got a lot. 285 00:13:51.685 --> 00:13:53.124 There's a lot in that sentence, 286 00:13:53.485 --> 00:13:59.284 but we can take it to mean that if you can dishabituate from something, 287 00:13:59.925 --> 00:14:05.043 let's say I'm looking out at the street as I'm talking to you and I get to live in a neighborhood that has trees. 288 00:14:05.670 --> 00:14:06.244 Kind of great. 289 00:14:06.665 --> 00:14:08.604 First day I looked out on the neighborhood, 290 00:14:08.784 --> 00:14:09.183 I thought, 291 00:14:09.365 --> 00:14:09.884 my gosh, 292 00:14:10.004 --> 00:14:10.924 this is fantastic. 293 00:14:11.605 --> 00:14:13.164 Most of the time I just think, 294 00:14:13.324 --> 00:14:13.384 oh, 295 00:14:13.425 --> 00:14:14.143 those are trees. 296 00:14:14.543 --> 00:14:15.887 But since we're talking about this, 297 00:14:16.008 --> 00:14:19.940 I'm a little bit thrilled by the trees I'm looking at. 298 00:14:20.580 --> 00:14:21.561 And if you're in, 299 00:14:21.941 --> 00:14:22.462 let's say, 300 00:14:22.702 --> 00:14:26.586 a workplace where the people are basically nice and good, 301 00:14:27.587 --> 00:14:33.774 to think of that not as gray background smells that you don't notice, 302 00:14:34.274 --> 00:14:37.297 but instead something that's kind of, 303 00:14:39.099 --> 00:14:39.980 how did I get so lucky? 304 00:14:41.004 --> 00:14:42.640 Then there's the pixie dust again. 305 00:14:44.046 --> 00:14:44.407 Cass, 306 00:14:44.527 --> 00:14:50.097 I'd like to dive in by discussing a topic that interests, 307 00:14:50.177 --> 00:14:50.618 I think, 308 00:14:51.159 --> 00:14:51.700 each of us, 309 00:14:51.780 --> 00:14:53.443 which is happiness. 310 00:14:54.385 --> 00:14:54.726 First, 311 00:14:55.066 --> 00:14:55.968 could you tell us, 312 00:14:56.148 --> 00:14:57.431 according to research, 313 00:14:57.671 --> 00:15:00.918 what are the most important factors for happiness? 314 00:15:01.262 --> 00:15:02.714 promoting our happiness. 315 00:15:03.856 --> 00:15:04.096 Well, 316 00:15:04.418 --> 00:15:08.814 let's back up a little bit and talk about what happiness might mean. 317 00:15:09.875 --> 00:15:12.714 And if we kind of broaden the view screen, 318 00:15:13.334 --> 00:15:16.714 there are three things that people care about. 319 00:15:18.417 --> 00:15:21.067 One is happiness in, 320 00:15:21.147 --> 00:15:21.589 let's say, 321 00:15:21.750 --> 00:15:22.834 ordinary language, 322 00:15:24.177 --> 00:15:27.434 French or English or Chinese or German, 323 00:15:28.230 --> 00:15:28.454 where... 324 00:15:29.211 --> 00:15:29.572 The question is, 325 00:15:29.572 --> 00:15:30.533 are you smiling? 326 00:15:30.774 --> 00:15:33.017 Are you frustrated? 327 00:15:33.217 --> 00:15:35.080 Are you bored? 328 00:15:35.420 --> 00:15:38.565 Are you feeling delighted and joyful? 329 00:15:38.585 --> 00:15:41.509 Do you want to continue with what you're doing right now? 330 00:15:41.529 --> 00:15:42.370 Do you want to keep at it? 331 00:15:43.470 --> 00:15:45.314 That's one thing people care about. 332 00:15:45.735 --> 00:15:54.290 Another thing that is connected with the Aristotelian idea of eudaimonia is a sense of meaning or purpose in life. 333 00:15:55.491 --> 00:15:56.334 So if you feel 334 00:15:56.896 --> 00:15:59.246 I'm watching the best TV shows and. 335 00:15:59.942 --> 00:16:00.143 Boy, 336 00:16:00.143 --> 00:16:01.104 am I laughing. 337 00:16:02.105 --> 00:16:04.287 You might think my life isn't very meaningful. 338 00:16:04.347 --> 00:16:05.007 It's kind of TV, 339 00:16:05.188 --> 00:16:05.408 TV, 340 00:16:05.588 --> 00:16:05.828 TV. 341 00:16:06.589 --> 00:16:13.516 And you might think that happiness in the more Aristotelian sense involves a sense of meaning or purpose. 342 00:16:13.956 --> 00:16:19.942 And people will sacrifice smiles and laughter for the sake of meaning and purpose and vice versa. 343 00:16:20.744 --> 00:16:28.239 A more recent work suggests that there's a third thing that's missed in the happiness meaning duo, 344 00:16:28.881 --> 00:16:29.362 and that's. 345 00:16:29.687 --> 00:16:30.991 psychological richness. 346 00:16:31.573 --> 00:16:34.341 So if you have variety in your life, 347 00:16:34.442 --> 00:16:34.703 if you, 348 00:16:34.823 --> 00:16:35.284 let's say, 349 00:16:35.365 --> 00:16:39.474 have a job you really like, 350 00:16:39.554 --> 00:16:45.366 but also a hobby or a job you really like that has like five different faces, 351 00:16:45.848 --> 00:16:47.817 so there are different things you do in your job, 352 00:16:48.359 --> 00:16:49.946 or there's a job you really like, 353 00:16:50.186 --> 00:16:56.286 and then you also have another job on the side that's very different and really cool, 354 00:16:56.870 --> 00:16:58.926 then you come back to your main job. 355 00:17:00.473 --> 00:17:01.375 looks amazing. 356 00:17:02.258 --> 00:17:03.080 People like that. 357 00:17:03.260 --> 00:17:08.574 And people will sacrifice happiness and meaning for the sake of psychological richness. 358 00:17:09.195 --> 00:17:14.950 And I think what we want to say about that is that meaning gets old. 359 00:17:15.652 --> 00:17:18.640 If you spend 10 years as a cancer researcher, 360 00:17:19.422 --> 00:17:21.067 the first year you might think, 361 00:17:21.107 --> 00:17:23.073 I get to be a cancer researcher. 362 00:17:23.133 --> 00:17:24.236 But by year 10, 363 00:17:24.778 --> 00:17:29.050 it just doesn't have the same internal surprise. 364 00:17:29.190 --> 00:17:30.839 signal that it did. 365 00:17:31.301 --> 00:17:34.590 And the same is true of things that make you smile and laugh. 366 00:17:35.011 --> 00:17:36.838 The surprise signal goes away. 367 00:17:36.978 --> 00:17:39.889 And listening to Taylor Swift over and over again, 368 00:17:39.949 --> 00:17:41.896 and I choose her because she's my favorite, 369 00:17:42.497 --> 00:17:47.653 even Taylor Swift over and over again makes one less happy than Taylor Swift, 370 00:17:47.713 --> 00:17:48.054 let's say, 371 00:17:48.194 --> 00:17:48.816 with breaks. 372 00:17:49.398 --> 00:17:52.187 So variety is really important, 373 00:17:52.187 --> 00:17:53.290 psychological richness, 374 00:17:53.430 --> 00:17:54.554 because by definition, 375 00:17:54.675 --> 00:17:56.402 you don't get used to what's changing. 376 00:17:57.246 --> 00:17:57.507 Okay, 377 00:17:57.527 --> 00:17:58.954 in terms of the ingredients, 378 00:17:59.059 --> 00:17:59.921 of happiness. 379 00:18:00.322 --> 00:18:02.989 This is a very complicated story. 380 00:18:03.089 --> 00:18:13.280 We have to distinguish between people's sense of whether they're satisfied with their lives and their sense of whether they're moment by moment happy. 381 00:18:13.923 --> 00:18:17.718 One is called the valued of well-being and the other is called experienced well-being. 382 00:18:18.258 --> 00:18:24.258 It might be that you're a cancer researcher and you're really satisfied with your life, 383 00:18:24.419 --> 00:18:27.090 but you're not enjoying it moment to moment very much, 384 00:18:27.593 --> 00:18:28.758 or it might be that you 385 00:18:29.003 --> 00:18:30.227 are a comedian, 386 00:18:30.287 --> 00:18:30.788 let's say, 387 00:18:31.150 --> 00:18:36.227 and maybe some comedians feel this is really delightful and happy all the time, 388 00:18:36.287 --> 00:18:39.202 but maybe not as meaningful as some other lines of work. 389 00:18:39.662 --> 00:18:40.111 Forgive me, 390 00:18:40.172 --> 00:18:40.681 comedians. 391 00:18:40.863 --> 00:18:41.637 I admire you all. 392 00:18:44.063 --> 00:18:46.187 In terms of things that make people happy, 393 00:18:47.710 --> 00:18:56.774 social relationships that are good and both meaningful and smile-producing, 394 00:18:57.417 --> 00:18:58.602 this isn't exactly new. 395 00:18:58.946 --> 00:19:00.268 But that's kind of important. 396 00:19:01.229 --> 00:19:01.549 Money, 397 00:19:01.889 --> 00:19:03.091 this is a little more fun, 398 00:19:03.311 --> 00:19:03.631 I think, 399 00:19:03.691 --> 00:19:06.474 because it's a little terrible to say. 400 00:19:07.095 --> 00:19:08.516 Money is important. 401 00:19:09.077 --> 00:19:13.201 So at least in countries where this is studied, 402 00:19:14.222 --> 00:19:15.943 people with more money are happier. 403 00:19:16.364 --> 00:19:17.685 Not like a ton happier, 404 00:19:17.925 --> 00:19:18.466 but happier. 405 00:19:19.067 --> 00:19:24.659 And one reason is the stresses associated with poverty are numerous, 406 00:19:25.181 --> 00:19:27.546 and they can be reduced a fair bit with money. 407 00:19:28.486 --> 00:19:45.287 and if you are poor and kind of inclined to be unhappy then your ability to get help is extremely limited people really enjoy this is an adult program as of now people 408 00:19:45.367 --> 00:19:58.310 really enjoy romance that's not a surprise but that's kind of the prize winner of what people enjoy a lot people don't really enjoy very much taking care of little cats 409 00:19:59.039 --> 00:20:00.950 The data suggests that that's tough. 410 00:20:01.464 --> 00:20:01.928 for women, 411 00:20:01.989 --> 00:20:02.493 by the way. 412 00:20:02.915 --> 00:20:03.076 Now, 413 00:20:03.217 --> 00:20:05.034 it may be the most meaningful thing, 414 00:20:05.717 --> 00:20:07.994 and they wouldn't wish it away for anything, 415 00:20:08.555 --> 00:20:12.594 but people aren't having a lot of fun taking care of little kids. 416 00:20:13.114 --> 00:20:18.389 Being on social media tends not to be a prize winner for people's experience, 417 00:20:18.450 --> 00:20:18.974 well-being. 418 00:20:20.116 --> 00:20:23.014 People going to an event with people they really like, 419 00:20:23.915 --> 00:20:24.922 spending time with them, 420 00:20:25.607 --> 00:20:26.434 that's a big plus. 421 00:20:27.824 --> 00:20:28.165 Cass, 422 00:20:28.305 --> 00:20:38.085 could you explain why the concept of habituation plays such an important role in happiness? 423 00:20:39.104 --> 00:20:39.504 Yes. 424 00:20:39.865 --> 00:20:48.035 So the idea of habituation in the last 30 years of behavioral work has taken a backseat, 425 00:20:48.736 --> 00:20:48.997 and 426 00:20:49.457 --> 00:20:53.002 I think it belongs in the cockpit. 427 00:20:54.022 --> 00:20:55.790 So suppose you are, 428 00:20:56.232 --> 00:20:56.373 well, 429 00:20:56.393 --> 00:20:57.800 let's talk about midlife crisis, 430 00:20:57.860 --> 00:20:58.242 shall we? 431 00:20:59.524 --> 00:21:03.782 Why is it that all around the world people have a midlife crisis? 432 00:21:04.544 --> 00:21:04.867 Here's, 433 00:21:05.128 --> 00:21:05.471 I think, 434 00:21:05.491 --> 00:21:06.942 an informed hunch. 435 00:21:07.641 --> 00:21:08.904 that if you're in your 436 00:21:10.127 --> 00:21:10.848 20s or 437 00:21:11.690 --> 00:21:14.918 30s, anything can happen. 438 00:21:15.583 --> 00:21:17.498 You might fall in love tomorrow. 439 00:21:18.419 --> 00:21:24.118 You might find a new career path that's going to fundamentally alter your life. 440 00:21:25.403 --> 00:21:27.138 You might have your heart broken. 441 00:21:27.958 --> 00:21:34.537 You might completely end up doing something that you had no idea you would do. 442 00:21:35.609 --> 00:21:36.431 If you're in your 443 00:21:37.192 --> 00:21:37.453 50s and 444 00:21:38.195 --> 00:21:42.886 60s, the likelihood of any of those things happening is really low. 445 00:21:43.707 --> 00:21:47.293 So people might have a relationship they're very content with, 446 00:21:47.674 --> 00:21:49.437 a job that's very solid, 447 00:21:50.679 --> 00:21:54.226 a living situation that's secure enough. 448 00:21:54.990 --> 00:21:56.846 And so they don't have instability. 449 00:21:57.808 --> 00:22:00.966 But it's a little like some old work actually from Europe. 450 00:22:01.549 --> 00:22:07.646 showing that if you're looking at a cloud of colors and there's a fixation thing in the middle and you're asked to stare at it, 451 00:22:08.087 --> 00:22:10.046 the colors all start to turn gray. 452 00:22:10.687 --> 00:22:16.026 It's because if you don't move your head and you just stare at a thing that has lots of colors, 453 00:22:17.049 --> 00:22:20.306 your brain stops registering the fact of colors. 454 00:22:20.466 --> 00:22:21.063 It's just gray. 455 00:22:21.949 --> 00:22:26.346 So the midlife crisis is associated with everything's gray. 456 00:22:27.318 --> 00:22:32.014 and that is a product of habituation. 457 00:22:32.314 --> 00:22:35.014 People have habituated to the various good things, 458 00:22:35.576 --> 00:22:41.094 and they don't get energy or a sense of excitement from them, 459 00:22:41.214 --> 00:22:43.414 and that can be potentially a crisis. 460 00:22:44.135 --> 00:22:45.334 So that's one example. 461 00:22:45.534 --> 00:22:47.760 Here's another example from my co-author, 462 00:22:48.964 --> 00:22:52.694 Tali Sharath's laboratory. 463 00:22:53.494 --> 00:22:55.574 If you give people an incentive to lie, 464 00:22:56.673 --> 00:22:57.615 they will lie. 465 00:22:58.737 --> 00:23:01.423 They will lie to a stranger to make money. 466 00:23:02.465 --> 00:23:03.908 When they start lying, 467 00:23:03.968 --> 00:23:07.016 the amygdala in the brain is firing. 468 00:23:07.537 --> 00:23:09.121 It's saying a very loud, 469 00:23:09.502 --> 00:23:09.622 no, 470 00:23:10.424 --> 00:23:11.487 don't lie. 471 00:23:11.567 --> 00:23:12.730 That's wrong. 472 00:23:13.660 --> 00:23:16.464 But as the day goes on, 473 00:23:16.864 --> 00:23:18.567 as the lies continue, 474 00:23:19.007 --> 00:23:21.331 the amygdala gets quieter and quieter, 475 00:23:22.452 --> 00:23:26.478 so much so that the amygdala doesn't say aloud no anymore. 476 00:23:27.079 --> 00:23:28.186 It says a kind of, 477 00:23:28.347 --> 00:23:28.669 okay, 478 00:23:28.851 --> 00:23:29.837 I guess that's what we do. 479 00:23:30.879 --> 00:23:33.838 So one's own immorality over time. 480 00:23:34.501 --> 00:23:37.531 for those who have one or another form of immorality, 481 00:23:38.033 --> 00:23:39.738 is a product of habituation. 482 00:23:40.438 --> 00:23:41.965 I had a friend a number of years ago, 483 00:23:41.965 --> 00:23:43.371 I didn't really understand this, 484 00:23:43.772 --> 00:23:45.178 who cheated on his taxes. 485 00:23:45.998 --> 00:23:49.954 That itself was a little surprising, 486 00:23:50.215 --> 00:23:51.078 more than surprising. 487 00:23:51.439 --> 00:23:53.558 But more surprising was he talked about it a lot. 488 00:23:54.142 --> 00:23:57.070 And he would talk about how he cheated on his taxes and, 489 00:23:57.250 --> 00:23:57.691 you know, 490 00:23:57.751 --> 00:23:58.531 with an implicit, 491 00:23:58.571 --> 00:23:59.092 you do too, 492 00:23:59.172 --> 00:23:59.573 don't you? 493 00:23:59.873 --> 00:24:00.013 And 494 00:24:00.654 --> 00:24:01.935 I didn't and don't. 495 00:24:02.556 --> 00:24:12.406 And his habituation to his own tax cheating was such that he didn't even think it was something that he should be hesitant to disclose to others. 496 00:24:12.947 --> 00:24:19.259 And if we think in business about corruption or various forms of illegality, 497 00:24:19.780 --> 00:24:23.246 it often becomes possible because people's amygdala stops fine. 498 00:24:23.743 --> 00:24:25.034 They habituate to it. 499 00:24:25.803 --> 00:24:26.584 And with respect, 500 00:24:26.584 --> 00:24:27.846 I'll give one more example. 501 00:24:28.686 --> 00:24:30.228 With respect to misinformation, 502 00:24:30.709 --> 00:24:32.871 there's something called the illusory truth effect, 503 00:24:33.372 --> 00:24:36.675 where if you hear a falsehood repeated a few times, 504 00:24:37.256 --> 00:24:38.658 you habituate to it. 505 00:24:39.078 --> 00:24:40.960 There's no surprise signal in the brain, 506 00:24:41.381 --> 00:24:42.562 so you tend to believe it. 507 00:24:42.702 --> 00:24:46.148 It's a very powerful effect in life and in the laboratory. 508 00:24:46.669 --> 00:24:49.695 If you hear twice or three times something that's false, 509 00:24:50.076 --> 00:24:51.578 it's really easy to process. 510 00:24:52.039 --> 00:24:53.522 So if you say something like... 511 00:24:58.735 --> 00:25:00.200 a shrimp's heart is in its head. 512 00:25:00.682 --> 00:25:02.140 I actually believe that to be true, 513 00:25:02.320 --> 00:25:03.880 maybe because I've heard it a few times. 514 00:25:04.340 --> 00:25:05.880 A shrimp's heart is in its head. 515 00:25:06.342 --> 00:25:06.866 Then people, 516 00:25:06.947 --> 00:25:08.440 having heard it a couple of times, 517 00:25:08.983 --> 00:25:09.820 start to think it's true. 518 00:25:09.900 --> 00:25:11.160 It's just easy to process. 519 00:25:11.360 --> 00:25:12.940 Where you hear it first time and you think, 520 00:25:13.081 --> 00:25:13.203 no, 521 00:25:13.325 --> 00:25:14.180 that can't be right. 522 00:25:14.260 --> 00:25:15.119 A heart and a head. 523 00:25:16.001 --> 00:25:23.760 And there's something kind of evolutionarily sensible in believing to be true things you've heard a number of times. 524 00:25:24.200 --> 00:25:25.892 probably that's not the worst heuristic, 525 00:25:26.532 --> 00:25:33.672 but it can mean that habituation leads to a belief in something that's not true at all. 526 00:25:35.674 --> 00:25:41.772 You spoke about variety and the importance of variety and diversity. 527 00:25:42.993 --> 00:25:48.732 There is something else which fills the lips of many people around the world, 528 00:25:49.815 --> 00:25:52.592 which is the use of social media. 529 00:25:53.364 --> 00:25:58.700 What do we know about the impact of social media use on our well-being? 530 00:25:59.300 --> 00:26:04.400 Is there an optimal level of social media usage? 531 00:26:05.681 --> 00:26:11.020 I think the simplest answer is less for most people. 532 00:26:11.760 --> 00:26:14.259 So here's some data we have. 533 00:26:15.333 --> 00:26:15.634 Actually, 534 00:26:15.955 --> 00:26:18.365 two streams of data that bear on this question. 535 00:26:19.048 --> 00:26:20.392 One is people were asked, 536 00:26:20.412 --> 00:26:24.044 how much would you have to be paid to be off Facebook for a month? 537 00:26:25.188 --> 00:26:26.746 And a number of people said, 538 00:26:27.847 --> 00:26:28.769 roughly $100, 539 00:26:28.830 --> 00:26:30.093 100 pounds, 540 00:26:30.093 --> 00:26:30.975 100 euros. 541 00:26:31.697 --> 00:26:34.244 And of a large population who said that, 542 00:26:34.885 --> 00:26:35.850 half were told, 543 00:26:35.930 --> 00:26:36.272 okay, 544 00:26:36.514 --> 00:26:37.439 we're going to give you the money, 545 00:26:37.519 --> 00:26:38.404 you're off for the month. 546 00:26:39.046 --> 00:26:40.331 And the other half were told, 547 00:26:40.391 --> 00:26:40.773 sorry, 548 00:26:40.874 --> 00:26:42.059 you're not going to get the money, 549 00:26:42.119 --> 00:26:43.224 you stay on for a month, 550 00:26:43.585 --> 00:26:46.734 but we're going to ask you a battery of questions in that month. 551 00:26:47.577 --> 00:26:49.944 And what happened was that 552 00:26:50.819 --> 00:26:57.756 The experimenters measured how people who were off for the month were doing compared to people who stayed on for a month. 553 00:26:58.719 --> 00:27:04.616 Large sample and randomized so you could tell what being off for a month did for the people. 554 00:27:05.359 --> 00:27:08.635 Turns out that the people who were off Facebook for a month were 555 00:27:09.159 --> 00:27:11.675 A. More satisfied with their lives 556 00:27:12.443 --> 00:27:12.564 B. 557 00:27:13.291 --> 00:27:13.736 Happier 558 00:27:14.768 --> 00:27:14.889 C, 559 00:27:15.612 --> 00:27:16.495 less anxious, 560 00:27:17.218 --> 00:27:17.479 and D, 561 00:27:18.241 --> 00:27:18.944 less depressed. 562 00:27:19.724 --> 00:27:22.415 So along every dimension of well-being, 563 00:27:22.937 --> 00:27:24.804 that was a really good month. 564 00:27:25.904 --> 00:27:26.085 Okay, 565 00:27:26.125 --> 00:27:27.813 here's a second stream of data, 566 00:27:27.934 --> 00:27:29.200 which I find very, 567 00:27:29.301 --> 00:27:29.924 very cool. 568 00:27:31.105 --> 00:27:31.465 People, 569 00:27:31.566 --> 00:27:33.049 young people were asked, 570 00:27:33.449 --> 00:27:37.418 how much would you have to be paid to be off 571 00:27:38.500 --> 00:27:40.544 Instagram or TikTok for the next month? 572 00:27:41.351 --> 00:27:43.396 and consistent with the data I just gave, 573 00:27:43.436 --> 00:27:44.157 people said, 574 00:27:44.498 --> 00:27:44.979 real money, 575 00:27:45.360 --> 00:27:45.621 $50, 576 00:27:46.182 --> 00:27:46.603 $60, 577 00:27:47.325 --> 00:27:47.886 50 euros, 578 00:27:47.946 --> 00:27:48.628 60 euros, 579 00:27:49.110 --> 00:27:52.548 you're going to have to pay me a good chunk of money to get me off. 580 00:27:53.528 --> 00:27:55.333 Then people were asked, 581 00:27:55.353 --> 00:27:55.654 well, 582 00:27:56.196 --> 00:27:57.720 the same people were asked, 583 00:27:57.880 --> 00:28:08.148 how much would you have to be paid to be off TikTok or Instagram if everyone in your community was off TikTok or Instagram? 584 00:28:09.313 --> 00:28:10.980 And the answer to that question was, 585 00:28:11.181 --> 00:28:11.381 oh, 586 00:28:11.422 --> 00:28:12.125 in that case, 587 00:28:12.165 --> 00:28:12.727 I'll pay you. 588 00:28:15.570 --> 00:28:15.951 I said, 589 00:28:16.292 --> 00:28:19.062 if everyone I know is going to be off TikTok, 590 00:28:19.765 --> 00:28:20.507 then I'll pay you. 591 00:28:21.368 --> 00:28:22.190 You don't have to pay me, 592 00:28:23.152 --> 00:28:26.840 which suggests that young people don't want to be on 593 00:28:27.381 --> 00:28:29.907 Instagram or TikTok in very large numbers, 594 00:28:29.947 --> 00:28:30.408 at least. 595 00:28:31.609 --> 00:28:37.408 But they will demand a lot of money to be off because they don't want to be left off a network. 596 00:28:38.636 --> 00:28:40.342 from which other people are, 597 00:28:41.004 --> 00:28:41.827 what's the right word, 598 00:28:41.907 --> 00:28:43.432 benefiting or something. 599 00:28:44.272 --> 00:28:46.676 So if you put these two pieces of work together, 600 00:28:47.077 --> 00:28:55.672 we know first that being involved in social media less produces an uptick in well-being. 601 00:28:56.353 --> 00:29:07.312 And we know that many young people at least are aware of this in the sense that they would pay real money to get a situation in which everyone's off. 602 00:29:08.057 --> 00:29:11.112 that must be because they think it's not a very good thing for them. 603 00:29:13.112 --> 00:29:16.399 Habituation doesn't just play a major role for our happiness, 604 00:29:16.659 --> 00:29:20.106 it also has a very large impact on another important thing, 605 00:29:20.327 --> 00:29:21.770 which is our creativity. 606 00:29:22.552 --> 00:29:28.248 So could you explain the relationship between habituation and creativity and how we can use that to our advantage? 607 00:29:29.170 --> 00:29:30.754 Let's talk about two people, 608 00:29:30.954 --> 00:29:31.355 shall we, 609 00:29:31.455 --> 00:29:32.317 to anchor it. 610 00:29:33.439 --> 00:29:34.581 One is Dick Thaler, 611 00:29:34.862 --> 00:29:36.866 my co-author and the founder of 612 00:29:37.287 --> 00:29:38.810 Modern Behavioral Science. 613 00:29:39.827 --> 00:29:42.770 You look at how he got into behavioral economics. 614 00:29:43.290 --> 00:29:43.430 Well, 615 00:29:43.450 --> 00:29:47.634 I think the more precise term is how he invented behavioral economics. 616 00:29:48.615 --> 00:29:50.557 There wasn't any such before him. 617 00:29:51.177 --> 00:29:55.922 He was a graduate student who wasn't especially good at math. 618 00:29:56.502 --> 00:30:00.446 And so his prospects in regular economics were very limited. 619 00:30:01.288 --> 00:30:04.857 But he was iconoclastic and he liked breaking rules. 620 00:30:05.058 --> 00:30:06.421 Going back to his childhood, 621 00:30:06.421 --> 00:30:08.246 he liked changing the rules of the game. 622 00:30:08.967 --> 00:30:11.691 And this guy is not a habituating kind of a guy. 623 00:30:12.212 --> 00:30:15.416 He's a little bit of a disabituation entrepreneur, 624 00:30:15.516 --> 00:30:16.197 let's call it. 625 00:30:16.757 --> 00:30:21.383 And he discovered some psychological findings from Kahneman and Tversky, 626 00:30:21.584 --> 00:30:23.246 and they electrified him. 627 00:30:23.907 --> 00:30:25.629 And while many economists, 628 00:30:25.669 --> 00:30:26.050 in fact, 629 00:30:26.210 --> 00:30:29.895 all economists at first regarded this as, 630 00:30:30.476 --> 00:30:30.776 you know, 631 00:30:31.137 --> 00:30:35.964 somewhere between an interesting sideshow and absurd, 632 00:30:36.705 --> 00:30:37.305 he thought, 633 00:30:37.446 --> 00:30:37.646 oh. 634 00:30:38.501 --> 00:30:38.741 Oh, 635 00:30:39.824 --> 00:30:44.334 people use heuristics to make probability judgments, 636 00:30:44.515 --> 00:30:45.758 and that leads to biases. 637 00:30:46.678 --> 00:30:47.343 And oh, 638 00:30:47.403 --> 00:30:49.358 people are averse to losses. 639 00:30:49.958 --> 00:30:54.938 And maybe that explains a lot of things about markets and consumer behavior. 640 00:30:55.875 --> 00:30:56.997 And what he did, 641 00:30:57.117 --> 00:31:00.481 because he was not a habituating type, 642 00:31:00.782 --> 00:31:02.644 was he got really creative. 643 00:31:03.105 --> 00:31:05.508 He didn't go down the regular streams. 644 00:31:05.948 --> 00:31:06.509 He thought, 645 00:31:06.689 --> 00:31:10.454 what is there on another stream that I can introduce? 646 00:31:11.293 --> 00:31:11.473 Now, 647 00:31:11.554 --> 00:31:13.359 the Dick Thaler of 648 00:31:14.060 --> 00:31:17.610 Olympic athletic competition is also called Dick. 649 00:31:18.172 --> 00:31:19.410 His name is Dick Fosbury. 650 00:31:19.671 --> 00:31:20.447 You may know the name. 651 00:31:21.011 --> 00:31:23.438 He invented something called the Fosbury flop, 652 00:31:23.900 --> 00:31:27.210 which is a way of doing the high jump that basically everyone does now. 653 00:31:27.670 --> 00:31:28.995 But when he invented it, 654 00:31:29.095 --> 00:31:33.430 it was called the Fosbury flop because it was a new way of jumping. 655 00:31:33.770 --> 00:31:38.270 It's a way of running to the high jump and going over the bar that no one had done before. 656 00:31:38.923 --> 00:31:42.207 And people originally thought this is extremely absurd, 657 00:31:42.267 --> 00:31:43.308 this way of jumping. 658 00:31:44.450 --> 00:31:48.995 And they stopped laughing so much when he made the United States Olympic team. 659 00:31:49.696 --> 00:31:52.219 He wasn't a particularly amazing athlete, 660 00:31:52.259 --> 00:31:52.840 by the way, 661 00:31:53.220 --> 00:31:54.802 but he discovered a new way of jumping. 662 00:31:54.802 --> 00:31:55.383 He won the 663 00:31:56.044 --> 00:31:58.448 Olympic, he won the, 664 00:31:58.448 --> 00:31:58.968 made the U.S. 665 00:31:58.988 --> 00:31:59.529 Olympic team. 666 00:31:59.569 --> 00:32:00.491 And when he won the 667 00:32:01.212 --> 00:32:04.978 Olympic gold medal and set the Olympic record, 668 00:32:05.258 --> 00:32:07.682 then people weren't laughing anymore. 669 00:32:08.343 --> 00:32:09.992 They thought the Fosbury flop, 670 00:32:10.052 --> 00:32:11.238 maybe that's the way to jump. 671 00:32:12.310 --> 00:32:13.614 and the reason he could do this, 672 00:32:13.654 --> 00:32:14.899 and he was like Dick Thaler, 673 00:32:15.401 --> 00:32:15.822 was A, 674 00:32:15.902 --> 00:32:17.468 he wasn't that great an athlete, 675 00:32:17.508 --> 00:32:19.655 like Thaler wasn't that great an economist, 676 00:32:20.117 --> 00:32:20.338 and B, 677 00:32:20.318 --> 00:32:22.746 he had some outside knowledge. 678 00:32:23.326 --> 00:32:24.250 He was an engineer, 679 00:32:24.671 --> 00:32:26.860 so he knew something about engineering, 680 00:32:26.960 --> 00:32:29.830 which was relevant to his redesign, 681 00:32:29.950 --> 00:32:30.472 let's say, 682 00:32:30.732 --> 00:32:32.898 of how to do the high jump, 683 00:32:33.239 --> 00:32:36.130 and that meant he wasn't habituated to the old ways. 684 00:32:36.655 --> 00:32:37.846 It turns out that if you... 685 00:32:39.402 --> 00:32:41.528 stand up and walk around a little bit, 686 00:32:42.089 --> 00:32:47.545 the data is suggestive that you will be more creative for approximately six minutes, 687 00:32:47.947 --> 00:32:48.910 only six minutes, 688 00:32:49.331 --> 00:32:50.595 but you'll be more creative. 689 00:32:50.936 --> 00:33:00.765 And that's because the standing up and walking around dishabituates you and the paths along which your mind had been going start getting jarred a little bit. 690 00:33:01.286 --> 00:33:06.497 So innovation and creativity is often a product of uh 691 00:33:07.021 --> 00:33:13.198 some form of separation between self and the paths one had formerly been on. 692 00:33:13.879 --> 00:33:17.453 I can say I noticed when I was working for President Obama, 693 00:33:17.453 --> 00:33:18.578 I worked for four years, 694 00:33:19.200 --> 00:33:22.651 by the end of my fourth year, 695 00:33:23.474 --> 00:33:24.598 I was really... 696 00:33:26.404 --> 00:33:30.591 competent at managing my job. 697 00:33:31.432 --> 00:33:34.197 I wasn't unfamiliar with it, 698 00:33:34.617 --> 00:33:37.141 so I could really know what to do. 699 00:33:37.362 --> 00:33:39.225 I knew what all the acronyms meant. 700 00:33:39.987 --> 00:33:40.428 CEQ, 701 00:33:41.309 --> 00:33:41.810 DPC, 702 00:33:43.433 --> 00:33:43.774 NEC, 703 00:33:44.215 --> 00:33:44.516 NSC. 704 00:33:44.796 --> 00:33:45.477 That was like, 705 00:33:46.680 --> 00:33:47.221 at the beginning, 706 00:33:47.241 --> 00:33:48.746 I had no idea what those were, 707 00:33:48.746 --> 00:33:51.115 and then I know what they were and how to manage them, 708 00:33:51.557 --> 00:33:53.197 but I was not creative anymore. 709 00:33:54.360 --> 00:33:55.750 I didn't have fresh ideas. 710 00:33:56.250 --> 00:33:58.560 And that's because after four years, 711 00:33:58.620 --> 00:34:00.770 I was just on paths. 712 00:34:01.330 --> 00:34:06.950 And if you come into a new job or separate yourself from your current job for a while and then go back, 713 00:34:07.551 --> 00:34:09.630 maybe just because you take a three-week vacation, 714 00:34:10.730 --> 00:34:16.006 the potential for discovering a new Fosbury flop becomes a lot higher. 715 00:34:17.501 --> 00:34:21.710 Maybe we could speak about risk habituation, 716 00:34:21.910 --> 00:34:22.251 Cass, 717 00:34:22.812 --> 00:34:23.433 which is, 718 00:34:24.035 --> 00:34:25.518 according to your definition, 719 00:34:25.658 --> 00:34:31.976 the tendency to perceive a behaviour as less and less risky the more you engage with it. 720 00:34:32.818 --> 00:34:38.296 It seems that there are benefits and drawbacks to habituation to risk. 721 00:34:39.038 --> 00:34:40.831 Could you tell us more about this? 722 00:34:41.919 --> 00:34:42.362 Yes. 723 00:34:44.885 --> 00:34:48.350 My wife grew up in Ireland and 724 00:34:48.871 --> 00:34:51.676 I go to Ireland with her every year, 725 00:34:52.397 --> 00:34:55.502 which means we have to drive on the wrong side of the road. 726 00:34:56.203 --> 00:34:56.344 So 727 00:34:57.373 --> 00:34:58.482 I have to switch. 728 00:34:58.944 --> 00:34:59.204 And 729 00:34:59.706 --> 00:35:04.462 I remember thinking for the first maybe three years of driving in Ireland. 730 00:35:05.407 --> 00:35:09.262 I'm going to crash for sure because everything's backwards. 731 00:35:10.988 --> 00:35:12.201 But I didn't crash at all. 732 00:35:12.562 --> 00:35:13.066 In fact, 733 00:35:13.106 --> 00:35:15.402 I was an extremely safe driver. 734 00:35:16.389 --> 00:35:20.738 And there's evidence that if, 735 00:35:20.999 --> 00:35:22.542 I think this happened in Sweden, 736 00:35:23.244 --> 00:35:27.562 that there was a switch from driving one side of the road to the other side of the road. 737 00:35:28.366 --> 00:35:33.623 On a day everyone was switched and accidents were anticipated by many, 738 00:35:34.064 --> 00:35:34.726 a skyrocket. 739 00:35:35.129 --> 00:35:35.714 In fact, 740 00:35:35.714 --> 00:35:36.480 it went way down. 741 00:35:37.166 --> 00:35:39.877 And the reason it went way down is that if you're a driver, 742 00:35:40.380 --> 00:35:41.585 you're habituated. 743 00:35:41.926 --> 00:35:42.551 If you're lucky, 744 00:35:42.753 --> 00:35:43.116 you're 745 00:35:43.561 --> 00:35:49.138 used to just driving in your normal way and not crashing and everything's fine and easy, 746 00:35:49.539 --> 00:35:51.324 you're not really on the alert anymore. 747 00:35:52.066 --> 00:35:55.938 And this is true for risk habituation in general, 748 00:35:56.579 --> 00:35:59.911 where if you're engaged in some risky job, 749 00:35:59.931 --> 00:36:02.902 let's say you're a construction worker after you've been doing it for a while, 750 00:36:03.505 --> 00:36:06.998 you're not alert to the dangers and you're probably pretty safe. 751 00:36:07.559 --> 00:36:10.938 But because there isn't a surprise signal firing in your head, 752 00:36:11.439 --> 00:36:11.780 Saying, 753 00:36:11.840 --> 00:36:15.003 I'm on a construction site now and something can go sour, 754 00:36:15.544 --> 00:36:17.365 maybe six weeks in, 755 00:36:17.606 --> 00:36:21.049 that's when you're especially in danger, 756 00:36:21.610 --> 00:36:24.213 not because circumstances are worse, 757 00:36:24.333 --> 00:36:29.258 but because your head is less alert to the fact that you're on a construction site. 758 00:36:30.137 --> 00:36:32.704 for athletes engaged in, 759 00:36:32.724 --> 00:36:33.105 let's say, 760 00:36:33.205 --> 00:36:36.294 some risky competition, 761 00:36:36.854 --> 00:36:38.093 if you've been doing it a lot, 762 00:36:38.674 --> 00:36:43.894 you will probably be inattentive to the dangers that you face. 763 00:36:44.156 --> 00:36:46.614 And the reason is that none of them has come to fruition. 764 00:36:47.335 --> 00:36:49.854 Whereas if you're in a risky athletic competition, 765 00:36:50.134 --> 00:36:51.874 let's say boxing or something, 766 00:36:52.357 --> 00:36:53.993 the first time you're in it for real, 767 00:36:55.019 --> 00:36:58.854 the surprise signal is firing and you are really trying to protect yourself. 768 00:37:00.548 --> 00:37:03.372 I would like also to talk about something 769 00:37:04.554 --> 00:37:07.718 I find very interesting, 770 00:37:07.798 --> 00:37:13.366 which is the link between tyranny and habituation. 771 00:37:14.246 --> 00:37:18.406 Can you explain how it is possible to habituate to tyranny? 772 00:37:19.067 --> 00:37:19.388 Okay, 773 00:37:19.489 --> 00:37:20.633 so let's, 774 00:37:21.135 --> 00:37:22.139 shall we go right there? 775 00:37:22.219 --> 00:37:23.384 Let's talk about Hitler, 776 00:37:23.444 --> 00:37:23.846 shall we? 777 00:37:24.434 --> 00:37:24.556 So... 778 00:37:27.338 --> 00:37:28.400 France and America, 779 00:37:29.161 --> 00:37:32.206 we can talk about Hitler and maybe Germany too, 780 00:37:32.467 --> 00:37:40.731 with special alertness to the horror that Hitler inflicted on his own country. 781 00:37:41.534 --> 00:37:47.774 So we did for the book a lot of work on the rise of fascism. 782 00:37:48.685 --> 00:37:52.232 And one thing that emerged is that 783 00:37:52.573 --> 00:37:55.900 Hitler wasn't history's Hitler immediately. 784 00:37:56.642 --> 00:37:57.344 He wasn't, 785 00:37:58.406 --> 00:37:59.268 with respect to 786 00:38:00.851 --> 00:38:01.874 Jews and others, 787 00:38:01.914 --> 00:38:06.169 he wasn't history's Hitler in his first six months. 788 00:38:07.303 --> 00:38:09.601 And what people there described. 789 00:38:09.986 --> 00:38:29.611 uh was um things happening slowly now from the standpoint of now the period between let's say hitler's um rise to power and the end of world war ii seems like a blink of an eye but in real time it wasn't that at all it was it was slow and 790 00:38:29.852 --> 00:38:31.757 one person there said in the 791 00:38:32.739 --> 00:38:39.400 1950s you know this was the gradual habituation of the people that's actually the words he used 792 00:38:39.984 --> 00:38:48.882 And he said it was like a field of corn where it's growing slowly and you don't notice it until it's over your head. 793 00:38:49.723 --> 00:38:50.525 And think a bit, 794 00:38:50.545 --> 00:38:51.286 if you would, 795 00:38:52.127 --> 00:38:52.347 of 796 00:38:52.688 --> 00:38:57.496 Italy or the French Revolution even, 797 00:38:58.117 --> 00:39:01.382 where things got terrible. 798 00:39:02.258 --> 00:39:02.498 Italy, 799 00:39:02.538 --> 00:39:03.820 I'm talking under Mussolini, 800 00:39:03.980 --> 00:39:04.100 and 801 00:39:04.941 --> 00:39:08.644 I defer to others on the specifics of the French Revolution, 802 00:39:08.765 --> 00:39:13.049 but the reign of terror wasn't like it was instant. 803 00:39:13.349 --> 00:39:16.252 Maybe it was faster than some things, 804 00:39:16.853 --> 00:39:19.676 but there's a day when it's bad, 805 00:39:20.196 --> 00:39:20.857 and then it's... 806 00:39:21.624 --> 00:39:22.547 worse than bad, 807 00:39:23.088 --> 00:39:23.971 and then it's very, 808 00:39:24.051 --> 00:39:24.813 very bad, 809 00:39:25.174 --> 00:39:27.701 and then all hell breaks loose. 810 00:39:28.541 --> 00:39:30.828 And that's some version of that, 811 00:39:30.948 --> 00:39:33.316 that that is the rise of Nazism, 812 00:39:33.637 --> 00:39:35.642 and that's how it was experienced by 813 00:39:36.864 --> 00:39:38.246 Germans observing it, 814 00:39:38.707 --> 00:39:40.911 where if you'd gone from 815 00:39:42.133 --> 00:39:48.360 Hitler's being chancellor to Hitler at his worst in two months. 816 00:39:49.945 --> 00:39:51.684 I think the people would have stood for it, 817 00:39:51.906 --> 00:39:53.053 would have been tolerable. 818 00:39:53.876 --> 00:39:55.453 But something else happened. 819 00:39:55.994 --> 00:39:58.019 And if you look at things that aren't ideal, 820 00:39:58.099 --> 00:40:00.764 let's say in North America and Europe right now, 821 00:40:02.127 --> 00:40:04.673 you can fill the blank in as you wish. 822 00:40:06.217 --> 00:40:09.752 The fact is that there's a gradual something. 823 00:40:10.594 --> 00:40:13.921 Let's profoundly hope it's not going to become terrible, 824 00:40:14.001 --> 00:40:19.853 but there's a gradual something that is of a concern. 825 00:40:21.758 --> 00:40:22.139 For you, 826 00:40:22.199 --> 00:40:28.030 the future of disabituation lies in what you call experimenting in living. 827 00:40:28.250 --> 00:40:29.452 Could you explain this? 828 00:40:29.974 --> 00:40:30.275 Yes. 829 00:40:30.355 --> 00:40:32.765 So the two heroes of the book are 830 00:40:33.227 --> 00:40:35.276 Julia Roberts and John Stuart Mill. 831 00:40:36.043 --> 00:40:36.224 And 832 00:40:36.726 --> 00:40:39.561 Bill is a great theorist of dishabituation. 833 00:40:40.621 --> 00:40:44.147 And what he thought is experiments of living, 834 00:40:44.187 --> 00:40:44.828 he called them, 835 00:40:45.008 --> 00:40:51.498 let's use the more semantically straightforward experiments in living, 836 00:40:52.159 --> 00:40:53.701 are essential. 837 00:40:54.404 --> 00:40:57.821 Where you see people doing things that are really different. 838 00:40:58.342 --> 00:41:00.047 It might be you live in, 839 00:41:00.809 --> 00:41:01.391 let's say, 840 00:41:02.714 --> 00:41:05.241 Italy and then you visit France. 841 00:41:07.326 --> 00:41:07.787 Canada, 842 00:41:08.008 --> 00:41:10.413 and you see something that's really different. 843 00:41:11.495 --> 00:41:18.293 Or it might be that you're 19 years old and you're in a family where things seem a certain way, 844 00:41:18.354 --> 00:41:21.384 and then you go off to camp or go off to college, 845 00:41:21.404 --> 00:41:24.716 and there are people who just are experimenting with different things. 846 00:41:25.338 --> 00:41:26.939 It might be different. 847 00:41:27.449 --> 00:41:27.811 You know, 848 00:41:27.911 --> 00:41:29.194 ways of spending a day. 849 00:41:29.354 --> 00:41:32.479 It might be different kinds of work. 850 00:41:32.559 --> 00:41:38.649 It might be different ways of thinking about the universe and the experiments that you're observing. 851 00:41:40.487 --> 00:41:45.860 make maybe what you've been doing seem incredibly great and new, 852 00:41:46.542 --> 00:41:52.696 or maybe make what you've been doing seem a little tired and uninventive. 853 00:41:53.558 --> 00:41:58.972 And if you think about things at work and in business that are fantastic, 854 00:41:59.273 --> 00:41:59.594 maybe, 855 00:41:59.935 --> 00:42:00.156 you know, 856 00:42:00.156 --> 00:42:02.925 take your pick of a business that's extremely creative, 857 00:42:03.125 --> 00:42:06.376 either the people are engaging in experiments and living, 858 00:42:06.877 --> 00:42:09.225 or they've learned from someone else. 859 00:42:09.746 --> 00:42:11.177 Why don't we try that? 860 00:42:11.678 --> 00:42:12.920 And I know in government, 861 00:42:13.120 --> 00:42:14.903 I've had a lot of experience with government, 862 00:42:15.684 --> 00:42:23.297 experiments are often the key to just being better at being in government. 863 00:42:24.078 --> 00:42:30.850 And because of travel and the Internet and coming virtual reality, 864 00:42:31.471 --> 00:42:35.297 the potential for us to dishabituate and discover what's... 865 00:42:36.733 --> 00:42:41.289 amazing but not appreciated in our own way of living, 866 00:42:42.050 --> 00:42:56.849 or maybe capable of being made amazing by transferring something we learn from a day in Paris or a day in Berlin or a week in Singapore. 867 00:43:00.165 --> 00:43:00.768 We can do that. 868 00:43:02.338 --> 00:43:02.979 So Cass, 869 00:43:03.039 --> 00:43:05.123 before we wrap up our conversation, 870 00:43:05.704 --> 00:43:09.390 we would like to ask you for your perspective on one other topic, 871 00:43:09.570 --> 00:43:11.673 which is a bit different from the topic of your book, 872 00:43:11.774 --> 00:43:13.837 but also very important and very timely. 873 00:43:14.858 --> 00:43:21.697 We'd love to hear your perspective on the important considerations in the ethics of artificial intelligence. 874 00:43:22.437 --> 00:43:23.577 How nice that you ask. 875 00:43:23.918 --> 00:43:24.923 I'm right now, 876 00:43:25.164 --> 00:43:25.707 even today, 877 00:43:25.808 --> 00:43:27.537 working on a book on this topic. 878 00:43:28.380 --> 00:43:31.114 So let's talk about AI and consumers, 879 00:43:31.134 --> 00:43:31.537 shall we? 880 00:43:32.685 --> 00:43:39.621 AI should be able to know with great specificity what each of us is inclined to buy. 881 00:43:40.022 --> 00:43:41.200 So let's talk about consumers. 882 00:43:42.021 --> 00:43:45.234 So if there's a new book on behavioral science, 883 00:43:45.274 --> 00:43:47.121 chances are I'm going to buy it. 884 00:43:47.802 --> 00:43:48.987 And tragically, 885 00:43:49.087 --> 00:43:52.041 there are people in the world who would have no interest in such books. 886 00:43:52.687 --> 00:43:53.697 And there's... 887 00:43:54.196 --> 00:43:55.961 a capacity for AI to know. 888 00:43:56.603 --> 00:43:59.992 And AI could also charge me a fair bit for such books, 889 00:44:00.052 --> 00:44:01.679 and I'll say that's completely fine. 890 00:44:02.101 --> 00:44:02.825 And other people, 891 00:44:02.845 --> 00:44:08.003 you're going to have to charge them very little to get them even willing to consider buying such books. 892 00:44:08.444 --> 00:44:11.653 So let's say tastes and intensity of tastes, 893 00:44:11.894 --> 00:44:12.920 AI will know, 894 00:44:13.523 --> 00:44:14.086 already knows, 895 00:44:14.147 --> 00:44:15.313 much better than ever before. 896 00:44:15.938 --> 00:44:16.219 Okay, 897 00:44:16.359 --> 00:44:22.371 if people are rational and free from behavioral biases, 898 00:44:22.852 --> 00:44:25.116 this is a beautiful world in which 899 00:44:26.205 --> 00:44:27.611 consumers are going to be better off, 900 00:44:27.671 --> 00:44:29.037 the economy is going to be better off, 901 00:44:29.218 --> 00:44:30.242 it's going to be phenomenal. 902 00:44:30.784 --> 00:44:35.620 But if people are imperfectly informed and subject to behavioral biases, 903 00:44:36.200 --> 00:44:40.651 let's say unrealistic optimism or present bias, 904 00:44:41.072 --> 00:44:42.295 then AI will know that. 905 00:44:42.896 --> 00:44:46.105 It'll know you are unrealistically optimistic. 906 00:44:46.686 --> 00:44:49.033 You are focused on today and tomorrow. 907 00:44:49.414 --> 00:44:52.283 I can use that to get you to buy what I want. 908 00:44:53.417 --> 00:45:03.410 So people who are prone to identify viable biases will be more vulnerable than ever before to 909 00:45:04.912 --> 00:45:06.514 AI, let's say, 910 00:45:06.594 --> 00:45:08.356 exploitation or manipulation. 911 00:45:09.277 --> 00:45:12.246 And as Tom Hanks said when he was an astronaut, 912 00:45:12.346 --> 00:45:13.530 or maybe it was in a movie, 913 00:45:14.192 --> 00:45:14.613 Houston, 914 00:45:14.633 --> 00:45:15.476 we have a problem. 915 00:45:16.376 --> 00:45:16.597 And 916 00:45:17.462 --> 00:45:18.829 Europe, North America, 917 00:45:19.091 --> 00:45:19.412 Asia, 918 00:45:19.654 --> 00:45:20.096 Africa. 919 00:45:21.971 --> 00:45:22.252 help, 920 00:45:22.774 --> 00:45:23.497 help Houston. 921 00:45:24.038 --> 00:45:24.199 Yeah, 922 00:45:24.339 --> 00:45:24.500 well, 923 00:45:24.520 --> 00:45:27.530 we'll definitely have to have you back to hear about that book when it's ready. 924 00:45:28.473 --> 00:45:29.637 But for today, 925 00:45:29.717 --> 00:45:32.466 we want to say a huge thank you for joining us today, 926 00:45:32.546 --> 00:45:32.907 Cass. 927 00:45:32.947 --> 00:45:34.453 This is an amazing conversation. 928 00:45:35.336 --> 00:45:38.408 For our listeners who want to find out more about you and your work, 929 00:45:38.709 --> 00:45:39.835 where would you like them to go? 930 00:45:40.659 --> 00:45:40.900 Well, 931 00:45:40.980 --> 00:45:42.146 there are two answers. 932 00:45:42.367 --> 00:45:42.548 One, 933 00:45:42.768 --> 00:45:44.738 which is politically incorrect, 934 00:45:44.899 --> 00:45:46.627 is amazon.com. 935 00:45:48.497 --> 00:45:50.242 Some people don't like Amazon so much, 936 00:45:50.382 --> 00:45:51.606 but I have books, 937 00:45:51.666 --> 00:45:52.969 including Look Again there. 938 00:45:54.172 --> 00:45:57.267 There's this amazing thing called the Social Science Research Network. 939 00:45:58.252 --> 00:46:00.040 And if you put in my name, 940 00:46:00.080 --> 00:46:02.491 you'll find more papers than I should have written. 941 00:46:03.039 --> 00:46:03.611 Perfect. 942 00:46:03.672 --> 00:46:04.366 Thank you so much. 943 00:46:04.958 --> 00:46:05.550 Thanks a lot, 944 00:46:05.550 --> 00:46:05.672 Cass. 945 00:46:06.015 --> 00:46:08.112 It was a fantastic conversation again. 946 00:46:08.520 --> 00:46:08.908 Thank you. 947 00:46:09.479 --> 00:46:10.112 I really enjoyed it. 948 00:46:10.132 --> 00:46:10.826 Amazing questions. 949 00:46:11.112 --> 00:46:11.802 Great to see you also, 950 00:46:11.904 --> 00:46:12.046 Eric. 951 00:46:12.734 --> 00:46:13.297 Be Good, 952 00:46:13.599 --> 00:46:15.812 a podcast by the BVA Nudge Unit.