WEBVTT 1 00:00:03.494 --> 00:00:06.959 I would say there's maybe a bit of competition in the collaboration, 2 00:00:07.018 --> 00:00:10.584 but it's like it's forcing me or encouraging me to think, 3 00:00:10.639 --> 00:00:10.764 well, 4 00:00:10.780 --> 00:00:14.108 then what is the most human about myself? 5 00:00:15.365 --> 00:00:18.904 What does it mean to create as a human being? 6 00:00:19.451 --> 00:00:21.858 Hello and welcome to Art Restart, 7 00:00:22.154 --> 00:00:23.467 where we learn from artists who, 8 00:00:23.733 --> 00:00:24.576 wherever they work, 9 00:00:24.858 --> 00:00:25.779 whatever they make, 10 00:00:26.170 --> 00:00:29.795 are shaking up the status quo in their fields and in their communities. 11 00:00:30.809 --> 00:00:31.890 I'm Pier Carlo Talenti, 12 00:00:31.970 --> 00:00:33.953 the producer and editor of this podcast, 13 00:00:34.453 --> 00:00:36.374 which is brought to you by the Thomas S. 14 00:00:36.456 --> 00:00:41.519 Keenan Institute for the Arts at the University of North Carolina's School of the Arts. 15 00:00:42.480 --> 00:00:43.222 In this episode, 16 00:00:43.223 --> 00:00:45.870 we'll be speaking with painter Damian Stamer. 17 00:00:47.027 --> 00:00:51.074 Damian is one of the Southeast's most recognized contemporary painters. 18 00:00:51.714 --> 00:00:56.652 He also happens to be a graduate of the UNCSA Visual Arts High School program. 19 00:00:57.604 --> 00:00:59.607 Having grown up in rural North Carolina, 20 00:01:00.166 --> 00:01:05.689 he creates large-scale work that captures his memories of the countryside he continues to call home. 21 00:01:06.556 --> 00:01:07.455 In recent years, 22 00:01:08.033 --> 00:01:13.814 he's layered his paint atop images of barns and abandoned homes that he himself has photographed, 23 00:01:14.486 --> 00:01:17.267 lending an even more dreamlike quality to the work, 24 00:01:17.798 --> 00:01:19.923 placing it both in and out of time. 25 00:01:20.923 --> 00:01:23.189 His work has been exhibited all over the country and has been acquired by major institutions including the Crystal Bridges Museum of American Art and the North Carolina Museum of Art. And both UNCSA and the Kenan Institute for the Arts have Damien Stamer originals in their own collections. 26 00:01:40.070 --> 00:01:45.055 I was excited to speak with him because lately he has been using AI in his work, 27 00:01:45.805 --> 00:01:47.586 or rather collaborating with AI, 28 00:01:48.258 --> 00:01:50.617 and he's very open about his ongoing experiment, 29 00:01:50.695 --> 00:01:53.383 even calling his latest series Collaborations. 30 00:01:54.144 --> 00:01:54.264 Now, 31 00:01:54.304 --> 00:01:57.728 we're all asking the same questions about how AI will impact the arts. 32 00:01:58.329 --> 00:02:00.450 I won't bore you by listing all of them, 33 00:02:00.470 --> 00:02:03.130 but I think basically it boils down to, 34 00:02:03.716 --> 00:02:05.052 is it friend or foe? 35 00:02:05.575 --> 00:02:07.013 I wanted to talk to an artist who, 36 00:02:07.380 --> 00:02:08.216 at first glance, 37 00:02:08.217 --> 00:02:11.544 at least seems to fall on the it's-a-friend spectrum, 38 00:02:11.966 --> 00:02:12.200 though, 39 00:02:12.481 --> 00:02:12.919 as you'll hear, 40 00:02:12.950 --> 00:02:15.388 the relationship is a little more nuanced. 41 00:02:16.341 --> 00:02:21.669 I started off our conversation by asking Damien if he could remember the first time 42 00:02:22.060 --> 00:02:26.222 He became aware of AI as a potential new tool for him. 43 00:02:27.179 --> 00:02:30.285 I don't remember specifically the first time, 44 00:02:31.246 --> 00:02:38.183 but there was a very specific time when I realized it had made a huge jump or they had made advances. 45 00:02:38.199 --> 00:02:39.621 So I was actually, 46 00:02:40.042 --> 00:02:43.558 my daughter was taking a nap on my legs, 47 00:02:43.824 --> 00:02:45.871 kind of on a pillow down by my feet. 48 00:02:46.105 --> 00:02:48.011 She was about maybe six, 49 00:02:48.230 --> 00:02:48.886 eight months old. 50 00:02:49.511 --> 00:02:50.292 This is in... 51 00:02:51.460 --> 00:02:52.941 the spring of 2022. 52 00:02:53.723 --> 00:02:57.307 That's kind of the only way she would nap was with contact naps. 53 00:02:57.627 --> 00:02:58.748 So I was in there and I was just, 54 00:02:58.947 --> 00:02:59.592 she was asleep, 55 00:02:59.631 --> 00:03:00.350 which was amazing. 56 00:03:00.990 --> 00:03:03.232 And so happy about that, 57 00:03:03.272 --> 00:03:03.936 in a good mood. 58 00:03:04.873 --> 00:03:05.873 I had my phone out. 59 00:03:05.874 --> 00:03:08.264 And you weren't going to do anything to break her sleep. 60 00:03:08.295 --> 00:03:08.420 No, 61 00:03:08.670 --> 00:03:08.795 no. 62 00:03:08.998 --> 00:03:09.561 So I'm just, 63 00:03:09.873 --> 00:03:10.154 you know, 64 00:03:10.217 --> 00:03:10.451 I do, 65 00:03:10.654 --> 00:03:11.607 I had my phone on me. 66 00:03:12.123 --> 00:03:13.357 So I'm reading New York Times, 67 00:03:13.764 --> 00:03:14.076 and 68 00:03:14.826 --> 00:03:17.029 I see this article on Dali 2. 69 00:03:18.311 --> 00:03:20.748 And I'm going through it and they have 70 00:03:21.208 --> 00:03:37.804 just the example images and there was this image of a teddy bear on a skateboard in times square and they would show you there was the prompt it was just like a teddy bear on a skateboard in times square and the image was so 71 00:03:38.039 --> 00:03:48.460 good it was kind of scary good to me that i knew it was one of those moments where you just you just know you have to do something and 72 00:03:49.789 --> 00:03:52.131 I knew I had to make work with this. 73 00:03:52.652 --> 00:03:56.535 I didn't know exactly how it would come about or what I would do with it, 74 00:03:56.555 --> 00:04:00.383 but I knew in an instant that I have to engage with this. 75 00:04:00.758 --> 00:04:02.820 So that's interesting because somebody else, 76 00:04:03.266 --> 00:04:06.703 another artist might instantly feel threatened in some way. 77 00:04:06.891 --> 00:04:07.312 You didn't. 78 00:04:07.313 --> 00:04:07.734 You were like, 79 00:04:07.828 --> 00:04:08.031 oh, 80 00:04:08.484 --> 00:04:09.266 I want to play with it. 81 00:04:09.594 --> 00:04:11.203 That was my initial impulse. 82 00:04:11.578 --> 00:04:14.000 I did not have any fear or anxiety about it. 83 00:04:14.001 --> 00:04:18.531 It was just kind of a moment of insight or just... 84 00:04:19.464 --> 00:04:36.508 a voice it wasn't even a whisper kind of in the subconscious it was just like a knowing that i i i needed to move forward with this and i listened to it so yeah so tell me about following that voice and moving forward talk about your experiments and playing with this new tool so this was the yeah 85 00:04:36.586 --> 00:04:48.148 spring of 2022 with a young child i thought okay i'm gonna i'm gonna start this body of work and i ordered these panels that were square format because dolly 2 would generate square images but 86 00:04:48.584 --> 00:04:49.165 Nothing happened, 87 00:04:49.285 --> 00:04:49.845 just busy. 88 00:04:50.286 --> 00:04:51.128 Life was busy, 89 00:04:52.108 --> 00:04:53.229 finishing up some bigger paintings. 90 00:04:53.230 --> 00:04:55.092 So it was actually in the fall, 91 00:04:55.530 --> 00:04:57.616 I got an email from the Gibbs Museum, 92 00:04:57.850 --> 00:04:58.374 and they were like, 93 00:04:58.375 --> 00:04:58.491 hey, 94 00:04:58.538 --> 00:04:59.092 we'd love to do... 95 00:04:59.655 --> 00:05:00.796 an exhibition with you, 96 00:05:00.837 --> 00:05:01.757 a solo exhibition, 97 00:05:01.958 --> 00:05:05.499 which was probably like the best email an artist can get. 98 00:05:07.944 --> 00:05:08.483 So I was like, 99 00:05:08.702 --> 00:05:09.788 I hadn't done anything with it. 100 00:05:09.789 --> 00:05:10.264 And I was like, 101 00:05:10.303 --> 00:05:10.444 look, 102 00:05:10.624 --> 00:05:14.108 I want to debut this series with this solo exhibition. 103 00:05:14.233 --> 00:05:14.632 So I, 104 00:05:15.952 --> 00:05:16.624 they were incredible. 105 00:05:16.671 --> 00:05:17.686 Always be grateful to them. 106 00:05:17.733 --> 00:05:18.811 They're incredibly gracious. 107 00:05:19.655 --> 00:05:23.546 So they were offering you an exhibit of work completely sight unseen. 108 00:05:23.999 --> 00:05:24.218 Well, 109 00:05:24.421 --> 00:05:25.780 this is why I'm grateful to them. 110 00:05:26.108 --> 00:05:27.124 We had a conversation. 111 00:05:27.125 --> 00:05:27.483 I was like, 112 00:05:27.530 --> 00:05:27.655 look, 113 00:05:27.749 --> 00:05:28.499 there's so 114 00:05:28.827 --> 00:05:31.188 If you get a chance to go to the Gibbs Museum in Charleston, 115 00:05:31.989 --> 00:05:36.095 there's this gorgeous atrium that they redid with all this light coming in. 116 00:05:36.173 --> 00:05:37.333 And then there's two galleries, 117 00:05:38.036 --> 00:05:38.778 one on each side. 118 00:05:39.114 --> 00:05:39.997 And in one gallery, 119 00:05:39.998 --> 00:05:40.255 I was like, 120 00:05:40.256 --> 00:05:40.380 hey, 121 00:05:40.381 --> 00:05:41.903 I have these paintings that are finished. 122 00:05:42.442 --> 00:05:43.044 Here they are. 123 00:05:43.560 --> 00:05:44.341 Let's go with these. 124 00:05:44.342 --> 00:05:44.763 And they were like, 125 00:05:44.778 --> 00:05:45.310 these look great. 126 00:05:45.325 --> 00:05:45.841 And I was like, 127 00:05:46.669 --> 00:05:47.700 and for the other side, 128 00:05:47.731 --> 00:05:49.622 I would like to paint new paintings. 129 00:05:50.247 --> 00:05:53.888 And I explained this idea about collaborating with AI. 130 00:05:54.591 --> 00:05:57.216 And the show opened in about four or five months, 131 00:05:57.247 --> 00:05:58.075 and they were up for it. 132 00:05:58.591 --> 00:06:02.391 So they had the faith in me to make some paintings. 133 00:06:02.553 --> 00:06:02.991 Wait, 134 00:06:03.092 --> 00:06:04.112 and most importantly, 135 00:06:04.151 --> 00:06:08.252 you had the faith in yourself that you could come up with a series in four or five months. 136 00:06:08.713 --> 00:06:09.057 I did. 137 00:06:09.471 --> 00:06:09.776 I did. 138 00:06:09.877 --> 00:06:10.291 Wow. 139 00:06:10.916 --> 00:06:12.276 Do you usually work that fast? 140 00:06:12.557 --> 00:06:14.830 I always say deadlines are the artist's best friend. 141 00:06:15.237 --> 00:06:15.534 For me, 142 00:06:16.174 --> 00:06:17.018 at least. 143 00:06:17.159 --> 00:06:17.737 They just help. 144 00:06:18.315 --> 00:06:20.534 They help things move along. 145 00:06:21.190 --> 00:06:22.799 I think having done, 146 00:06:23.893 --> 00:06:27.518 I've been fortunate to just be an artist doing shows for. 147 00:06:28.519 --> 00:06:28.879 I don't know, 148 00:06:28.979 --> 00:06:29.820 since graduate school, 149 00:06:29.861 --> 00:06:31.642 pretty much solely or even before. 150 00:06:31.703 --> 00:06:32.824 So for about 15 years. 151 00:06:32.843 --> 00:06:36.550 So I've built up the faith in myself that I can get to get it done. 152 00:06:36.886 --> 00:06:37.027 Yeah. 153 00:06:37.347 --> 00:06:38.066 So yeah, 154 00:06:38.230 --> 00:06:41.613 talk about coming up with this new series in four or five months. 155 00:06:42.574 --> 00:06:45.628 What was your initial idea of how you would use Dali? 156 00:06:46.316 --> 00:06:50.722 And then how did it evolve as you started making these paintings? 157 00:06:51.285 --> 00:06:52.269 So I had been, 158 00:06:52.910 --> 00:06:53.175 again, 159 00:06:53.238 --> 00:06:54.863 with like all this nap time. 160 00:06:55.128 --> 00:06:56.160 And my previous work, 161 00:06:56.613 --> 00:06:57.441 I was going out. 162 00:06:57.659 --> 00:07:06.118 with my camera and photographing the landscape right around here where I grew up in old abandoned buildings and houses and barns. 163 00:07:06.524 --> 00:07:13.688 But the exploration then after I kind of found Dali 2 was just within this program. 164 00:07:13.767 --> 00:07:17.110 So even before I got the email about the exhibition, 165 00:07:17.142 --> 00:07:20.579 I had been generating hundreds of potential images. 166 00:07:20.720 --> 00:07:21.907 So I kind of refined it. 167 00:07:22.407 --> 00:07:23.657 It actually happened quite quickly. 168 00:07:24.642 --> 00:07:25.751 I can remember within 169 00:07:26.311 --> 00:07:27.232 Even the first 170 00:07:27.953 --> 00:07:29.415 24 to 48 hours, 171 00:07:29.434 --> 00:07:30.393 I was playing with it, 172 00:07:31.217 --> 00:07:32.858 experimenting with different prompts, 173 00:07:33.139 --> 00:07:38.362 and coming up with images that were very exciting to me within the first few days. 174 00:07:38.604 --> 00:07:42.104 Can I ask what made them exciting to you? 175 00:07:42.714 --> 00:07:43.385 They're just, 176 00:07:43.823 --> 00:07:45.667 they're captivating, 177 00:07:46.714 --> 00:07:47.010 I guess, 178 00:07:47.495 --> 00:07:48.010 on a very, 179 00:07:49.214 --> 00:07:52.510 maybe in terms of the elements and principles of design. 180 00:07:52.979 --> 00:07:54.135 They were mysterious. 181 00:07:54.323 --> 00:07:54.604 They were... 182 00:07:54.743 --> 00:07:55.564 a little bit off. 183 00:07:55.584 --> 00:07:58.126 This is probably a good time to say that they've come out with a Dali 3, 184 00:07:58.167 --> 00:07:59.206 but I like Dali 2. 185 00:07:59.648 --> 00:08:03.495 I like the little slippages where sometimes it doesn't make total sense. 186 00:08:03.535 --> 00:08:10.902 There's a little bit of this hallucination maybe going on and that's an interesting place for me to go. 187 00:08:11.074 --> 00:08:11.933 But they're also, 188 00:08:12.964 --> 00:08:13.339 I will say, 189 00:08:13.417 --> 00:08:15.058 like even with my own paintings before, 190 00:08:15.464 --> 00:08:17.542 all of them usually started with a good photograph. 191 00:08:17.543 --> 00:08:21.402 So I'd take a captivating image that gets me excited to make a painting from. 192 00:08:21.902 --> 00:08:23.011 There were many of these 193 00:08:24.039 --> 00:08:24.480 And 194 00:08:25.040 --> 00:08:27.203 I was excited to paint them. 195 00:08:27.363 --> 00:08:31.106 It was almost when really looking at them, 196 00:08:31.145 --> 00:08:31.645 I was like, 197 00:08:31.668 --> 00:08:31.949 wow, 198 00:08:33.645 --> 00:08:35.192 this AI is very intelligent, 199 00:08:35.731 --> 00:08:36.152 is very, 200 00:08:36.309 --> 00:08:36.574 very, 201 00:08:36.652 --> 00:08:39.410 very good in composing images. 202 00:08:39.754 --> 00:08:39.957 Right. 203 00:08:39.973 --> 00:08:40.098 Well, 204 00:08:40.301 --> 00:08:44.363 partly because it's been partly trained on some of your images, 205 00:08:44.692 --> 00:08:46.567 along with millions of other artists, 206 00:08:46.676 --> 00:08:46.942 right? 207 00:08:47.020 --> 00:08:47.442 Perhaps. 208 00:08:47.520 --> 00:08:47.676 Yeah, 209 00:08:47.770 --> 00:08:48.223 exactly. 210 00:08:48.660 --> 00:08:48.801 Yeah. 211 00:08:49.098 --> 00:08:51.926 So that's a different topic. 212 00:08:52.004 --> 00:08:52.426 But yes, 213 00:08:52.473 --> 00:08:52.754 it was. 214 00:08:54.719 --> 00:08:57.662 I don't know how many mine got in there in the training, 215 00:08:57.943 --> 00:08:59.525 but hard to say. 216 00:09:01.588 --> 00:09:10.177 And so what did you discover about your own art making as you were using these new generated images to create the series? 217 00:09:10.232 --> 00:09:12.232 And was this the twin series? 218 00:09:12.810 --> 00:09:13.357 At that point, 219 00:09:13.358 --> 00:09:15.513 it was just the collaboration series, 220 00:09:15.576 --> 00:09:17.716 which is kind of the blanket name. 221 00:09:17.888 --> 00:09:22.623 Every painting that I create in collaboration with AI is under... 222 00:09:24.575 --> 00:09:26.336 I see it under this collaboration series, 223 00:09:26.356 --> 00:09:29.917 and then there's kind of subsets and series within that, 224 00:09:29.975 --> 00:09:31.854 and the twins is one of those. 225 00:09:31.893 --> 00:09:35.417 But these were just collaborations that were, 226 00:09:36.174 --> 00:09:38.495 the first four were interiors. 227 00:09:38.760 --> 00:09:38.878 So, 228 00:09:39.042 --> 00:09:39.198 yeah. 229 00:09:39.815 --> 00:09:39.940 So, 230 00:09:40.065 --> 00:09:49.737 what did these AI-generated interiors allow you to make that you couldn't have made had you just relied on... 231 00:09:50.207 --> 00:09:51.149 Extant images, 232 00:09:51.249 --> 00:09:55.298 images that you take in real places or just your imagination? 233 00:09:55.696 --> 00:09:56.579 There was a newness. 234 00:09:56.657 --> 00:09:57.782 It was a new exploration. 235 00:09:59.442 --> 00:10:02.625 most excited when I feel like I'm exploring something. 236 00:10:02.626 --> 00:10:04.066 And these images were just different. 237 00:10:04.468 --> 00:10:07.754 They were just different in a way that it was not an actual space. 238 00:10:08.215 --> 00:10:10.449 You talked about changing your prompts early on. 239 00:10:10.957 --> 00:10:14.519 How did you go about refining your collaboration with 240 00:10:14.996 --> 00:10:21.121 Dali? I think it's more of an experimentation and play. 241 00:10:21.543 --> 00:10:28.590 I don't think it's like you start and then you're kind of narrowing it down until you find the perfect... 242 00:10:28.658 --> 00:10:53.482 prompt it's more like i have an idea today let me add this word how about this phrase and i'm just i'm just playing and i'm also generating so many that it's it's probably not the best analogy but it's kind of like a slot machine in the sense that you're just you're just kind of like putting it in sometimes i'll do the same prop many many times so i'm just generating generating generating until an image comes 243 00:10:53.529 --> 00:10:57.482 up that is very captivating it feels maybe in the back of 244 00:10:57.926 --> 00:10:59.167 The recesses of my mind, 245 00:10:59.227 --> 00:11:00.147 like it could be, 246 00:11:01.190 --> 00:11:02.190 it touches on memory, 247 00:11:02.331 --> 00:11:05.975 maybe not in a specific place, 248 00:11:05.976 --> 00:11:07.577 but it has the same feel to it. 249 00:11:08.296 --> 00:11:08.413 So 250 00:11:09.116 --> 00:11:10.257 I wouldn't say refinement, 251 00:11:10.382 --> 00:11:13.624 it's just like a continual play with language. 252 00:11:15.069 --> 00:11:22.710 You mentioned that the Gibbs Museum was totally open to having a portion of your exhibit be this new experiment. 253 00:11:23.334 --> 00:11:32.235 Did you have any anxiety about revealing to your colleagues and to galleries and museums that you were starting to incorporate AI in your art making? 254 00:11:33.118 --> 00:11:34.118 It's a great question. 255 00:11:34.876 --> 00:11:36.258 I personally never did. 256 00:11:37.235 --> 00:11:37.821 I wanted to, 257 00:11:38.079 --> 00:11:40.555 when the Gibbs gave me this amazing opportunity, 258 00:11:40.633 --> 00:11:44.555 I wanted to get it out there and kind of put a timestamp to say, 259 00:11:45.462 --> 00:11:46.196 I am doing this. 260 00:11:46.587 --> 00:11:50.524 I was excited about sharing the series. 261 00:11:50.978 --> 00:11:51.819 And you were very clear. 262 00:11:51.820 --> 00:11:52.139 In fact, 263 00:11:52.140 --> 00:11:53.440 you titled it collaboration. 264 00:11:53.481 --> 00:11:54.381 So there was definitely, 265 00:11:54.561 --> 00:11:57.745 you were very explicit about your use of the tool. 266 00:11:58.065 --> 00:11:58.526 Exactly. 267 00:11:58.706 --> 00:12:02.046 But that's not to say that some artists I've talked to, 268 00:12:02.389 --> 00:12:03.069 curators, 269 00:12:03.108 --> 00:12:09.592 they're a little bit more hesitant or have adverse reactions. 270 00:12:09.624 --> 00:12:10.124 And I get it. 271 00:12:10.155 --> 00:12:10.374 I mean, 272 00:12:11.452 --> 00:12:19.499 just because I'm collaborating with AI does not mean that I think artificial intelligence is going to be the best for humanity. 273 00:12:20.334 --> 00:12:22.535 and humans whatsoever. 274 00:12:22.755 --> 00:12:23.074 Probably, 275 00:12:24.273 --> 00:12:26.535 I might be fairly skeptical about that, 276 00:12:26.574 --> 00:12:27.515 but I knew that, 277 00:12:27.714 --> 00:12:30.414 or at least I thought that this is going to be, 278 00:12:31.679 --> 00:12:35.515 have an impact on humans at a very large scale, 279 00:12:35.718 --> 00:12:36.562 and our society, 280 00:12:37.234 --> 00:12:38.125 the way we communicate, 281 00:12:38.126 --> 00:12:38.859 the way we think. 282 00:12:39.015 --> 00:12:39.140 So, 283 00:12:40.140 --> 00:12:44.656 I wanted to engage with it, 284 00:12:45.187 --> 00:12:48.265 and it probably seems like a bit of an oblique way to go about 285 00:12:48.670 --> 00:12:54.135 learning about AI and how we're interacting with it as humans through painting. 286 00:12:54.236 --> 00:12:57.943 But I actually do think at the same time, 287 00:12:59.240 --> 00:13:01.560 it's a very good way to explore that as well. 288 00:13:02.443 --> 00:13:06.193 You mentioned that some colleagues had some hesitations. 289 00:13:06.521 --> 00:13:07.396 What did you hear them say? 290 00:13:08.193 --> 00:13:11.037 I will say a curator that I very much respect, 291 00:13:11.631 --> 00:13:15.053 he said that she didn't see, 292 00:13:15.256 --> 00:13:15.881 she was like, 293 00:13:15.943 --> 00:13:16.834 where's Damien? 294 00:13:17.114 --> 00:13:22.056 Is this when she saw the work or when you first started talking about making it? 295 00:13:22.275 --> 00:13:24.595 This is when she saw a piece and I was like, 296 00:13:25.497 --> 00:13:26.115 one piece. 297 00:13:26.116 --> 00:13:26.654 And I was like, 298 00:13:26.677 --> 00:13:26.872 well, 299 00:13:28.333 --> 00:13:28.716 I was like, 300 00:13:28.740 --> 00:13:30.997 come to my studio and let's have a talk. 301 00:13:31.076 --> 00:13:31.357 This is, 302 00:13:32.396 --> 00:13:33.912 you're at an event and it's not really, 303 00:13:34.365 --> 00:13:36.380 it wasn't a very in-depth conversation. 304 00:13:36.724 --> 00:13:36.958 I mean, 305 00:13:38.005 --> 00:13:38.693 it was and it wasn't, 306 00:13:38.724 --> 00:13:39.240 but I was like, 307 00:13:39.287 --> 00:13:44.162 just come to the studio and see some larger pieces and let's... 308 00:13:44.566 --> 00:13:45.447 let's talk about this. 309 00:13:45.667 --> 00:13:46.367 I'm one to, 310 00:13:48.030 --> 00:13:52.055 I think whatever the topic or perhaps point of tension or misunderstanding, 311 00:13:52.192 --> 00:13:55.176 I'm one to kind of to step forward and say like, 312 00:13:55.199 --> 00:13:55.317 well, 313 00:13:55.340 --> 00:13:55.496 let's, 314 00:13:55.715 --> 00:13:59.957 let's talk about it because maybe of course she's probably right. 315 00:14:00.098 --> 00:14:06.442 Maybe she's seeing less of what she thinks of Damien in maybe that she, 316 00:14:06.660 --> 00:14:08.051 she knows from my previous work, 317 00:14:08.207 --> 00:14:08.723 but I don't, 318 00:14:08.989 --> 00:14:09.489 uh, 319 00:14:09.785 --> 00:14:10.239 we haven't, 320 00:14:10.240 --> 00:14:12.707 still haven't had a chance to have continue that conversation, 321 00:14:12.817 --> 00:14:13.473 but I know. 322 00:14:14.458 --> 00:14:16.800 I look forward to it because she's brilliant. 323 00:14:16.960 --> 00:14:20.085 So I do respect her opinion very much. 324 00:14:20.503 --> 00:14:20.843 Yeah. 325 00:14:21.046 --> 00:14:21.226 Well, 326 00:14:21.406 --> 00:14:26.132 you were talking about identity and she just brought up, 327 00:14:26.171 --> 00:14:26.773 where is Damien? 328 00:14:26.788 --> 00:14:27.695 Do you ever wonder, 329 00:14:28.351 --> 00:14:28.491 well, 330 00:14:28.515 --> 00:14:29.031 you must, 331 00:14:29.570 --> 00:14:31.234 if there's a point when 332 00:14:31.781 --> 00:14:35.984 Damien-ness might become beholden to AI? 333 00:14:35.999 --> 00:14:36.702 In other words, 334 00:14:37.421 --> 00:14:44.031 where either the line might start blurring too much or you might in any way dep- 335 00:14:44.094 --> 00:14:45.477 depend on it too much? 336 00:14:46.018 --> 00:14:47.840 Do you ever have those conversations with yourself? 337 00:14:48.360 --> 00:14:49.121 I actually think, 338 00:14:49.403 --> 00:14:51.348 to your original question, 339 00:14:51.848 --> 00:14:54.649 whether we'll say Damien-ness is getting lost, 340 00:14:54.696 --> 00:14:57.000 I think it's actually the opposite. 341 00:14:57.497 --> 00:14:58.659 And I'll explain why. 342 00:14:58.739 --> 00:15:01.141 And I didn't get a chance to explain this as a curator, 343 00:15:01.180 --> 00:15:03.624 but I think you can have human, 344 00:15:04.502 --> 00:15:05.124 myself, 345 00:15:05.569 --> 00:15:06.022 my ego, 346 00:15:06.225 --> 00:15:07.686 my understanding of the world. 347 00:15:08.647 --> 00:15:12.655 When I'm having a counterpoint be artificial intelligence, 348 00:15:13.788 --> 00:15:16.459 I'm looking at all the things that it can do, 349 00:15:16.709 --> 00:15:20.803 and I'm reading books about where it can go or how it's the different ways. 350 00:15:20.834 --> 00:15:22.616 It very much does not have human values. 351 00:15:23.022 --> 00:15:23.147 So 352 00:15:23.709 --> 00:15:25.819 I would say there's maybe a bit of competition. 353 00:15:26.213 --> 00:15:27.133 in the collaboration, 354 00:15:27.173 --> 00:15:27.694 but it's like, 355 00:15:28.014 --> 00:15:30.754 it's forcing me or encouraging me to think, 356 00:15:30.813 --> 00:15:30.953 well, 357 00:15:30.954 --> 00:15:34.274 then what is the most human about myself? 358 00:15:35.531 --> 00:15:39.078 What does it mean to create as a human being? 359 00:15:39.594 --> 00:15:41.274 And when I'm in the studio, 360 00:15:41.633 --> 00:15:44.617 when I'm painting and I'm struggling with a painting, 361 00:15:44.789 --> 00:15:45.992 I'm trying to break through it. 362 00:15:46.196 --> 00:15:48.399 I'm maybe in some of the best times. 363 00:15:49.211 --> 00:15:50.071 I'm not thinking. 364 00:15:50.336 --> 00:15:55.399 I'm trying to turn off the rational side of my brain and just almost autonomically or just... 365 00:15:55.541 --> 00:15:58.944 just with this kind of pure emotion and creative force, 366 00:15:59.104 --> 00:16:00.887 put paint on the linen, 367 00:16:00.888 --> 00:16:01.387 the panel, 368 00:16:01.489 --> 00:16:02.086 on the canvas, 369 00:16:02.129 --> 00:16:03.551 like that has become very much, 370 00:16:04.129 --> 00:16:08.692 much more apparent in relation with AI than in my previous work, 371 00:16:08.693 --> 00:16:09.278 at least to me. 372 00:16:09.653 --> 00:16:10.239 It's interesting, 373 00:16:10.293 --> 00:16:16.465 like almost like turning off the computer in your head and going for something like a soul or spirit. 374 00:16:17.606 --> 00:16:17.918 Yes. 375 00:16:18.747 --> 00:16:19.059 And I'm, 376 00:16:19.668 --> 00:16:20.590 I'm an interesting, 377 00:16:21.090 --> 00:16:22.434 I'm collaborating with AI, 378 00:16:22.481 --> 00:16:24.231 but I'm also pretty much. 379 00:16:25.289 --> 00:16:26.871 Trying to limit my screen time, 380 00:16:29.132 --> 00:16:30.113 sitting in silence, 381 00:16:30.175 --> 00:16:32.335 meditating often, 382 00:16:32.437 --> 00:16:36.839 doing different things that are very much not artificial intelligence, 383 00:16:36.917 --> 00:16:37.644 not technology, 384 00:16:38.082 --> 00:16:38.683 not screens. 385 00:16:39.019 --> 00:16:41.488 I think they're both part of our world. 386 00:16:42.222 --> 00:16:44.253 I think there are a lot of dangers, 387 00:16:44.394 --> 00:16:47.035 harmful effects that can come with technology. 388 00:16:47.175 --> 00:16:47.285 So, 389 00:16:48.144 --> 00:16:49.113 I'm an interesting, 390 00:16:50.207 --> 00:16:52.957 I guess I'm in a unique position to make this work. 391 00:16:53.300 --> 00:16:54.097 because like I said, 392 00:16:54.098 --> 00:16:54.550 I'm a... 393 00:16:54.989 --> 00:16:55.910 collaborator. 394 00:16:57.571 --> 00:17:02.356 And it brings up another definition of collaboration in my mind, 395 00:17:02.395 --> 00:17:02.516 which 396 00:17:04.000 --> 00:17:05.180 I don't think I'll really step into, 397 00:17:05.297 --> 00:17:05.461 but 398 00:17:07.360 --> 00:17:09.641 I'm operating on some different levels. 399 00:17:09.821 --> 00:17:10.344 We'll just say that. 400 00:17:11.328 --> 00:17:11.438 So, 401 00:17:11.766 --> 00:17:12.063 you know, 402 00:17:12.407 --> 00:17:15.375 thinking about this interview and talking about AI with an artist, 403 00:17:15.422 --> 00:17:16.985 especially with an artist such as yourself, 404 00:17:17.032 --> 00:17:22.032 who does create a lot of work around memories and the past, 405 00:17:22.657 --> 00:17:24.360 I remembered a few articles I read. 406 00:17:24.669 --> 00:17:26.651 not too long ago about memory, 407 00:17:26.731 --> 00:17:30.053 the way we as humans bring up memory. 408 00:17:30.596 --> 00:17:35.077 It always feels like we're tapping into a region of our brain where it's stored, 409 00:17:35.078 --> 00:17:36.639 but it turns out that's actually not true, 410 00:17:36.702 --> 00:17:39.483 that every time we remember something, 411 00:17:40.124 --> 00:17:44.413 your brain actually kind of recreates the memory from whole cloth, 412 00:17:45.303 --> 00:17:47.147 which is so interesting because it made me think, 413 00:17:47.272 --> 00:17:47.444 well, 414 00:17:47.788 --> 00:17:50.616 isn't that what AI does with prompts. 415 00:17:51.256 --> 00:17:51.835 Our brain... 416 00:17:52.417 --> 00:17:53.959 is kind of doing that too, 417 00:17:54.019 --> 00:17:59.465 that there is no frozen image of an event in our past that exists in our brain. 418 00:17:59.925 --> 00:18:01.543 It has to be regenerated. 419 00:18:02.230 --> 00:18:02.410 So 420 00:18:03.269 --> 00:18:15.527 I'm wondering if there's ever been any images that AI has conjured that have felt in a way realer than your own memories. 421 00:18:15.996 --> 00:18:17.621 That's another great question, 422 00:18:17.683 --> 00:18:17.808 and 423 00:18:18.824 --> 00:18:20.261 I'm not a neuroscientist. 424 00:18:21.113 --> 00:18:24.117 I will say I don't think it's ever stepped in where I've had, 425 00:18:24.636 --> 00:18:25.997 I've shuddered and been like that. 426 00:18:26.279 --> 00:18:28.200 That feels like I was there. 427 00:18:28.458 --> 00:18:34.107 But I will say there were prompts I was exploring about a fog, 428 00:18:34.404 --> 00:18:35.247 like a misty, 429 00:18:35.685 --> 00:18:39.029 a barn in a misty field in the fall. 430 00:18:40.138 --> 00:18:49.419 And the images were so close to my own memories and reference photos I've taken just with. 431 00:18:49.485 --> 00:19:08.559 the color race is kind of this amber color of the grass of the hay with this mist and it was just that did have the i'll say like the the taste and the smell like the sense it in a sensual way it brought me back to my own memories very very acutely so sometimes 432 00:19:08.560 --> 00:19:18.871 it does hit yes well now that you've been playing with it and using it for three years now yeah what do you think you would not want to use. 433 00:19:19.393 --> 00:19:34.948 ai for like is there have you have you set any sort of red lines for yourself like oh i i will never do this for instance no and i mean everything is is somewhat context dependent the 434 00:19:35.011 --> 00:19:47.519 paintings themselves are a hundred percent human made painted by my hand so i i don't think i would be too interested in like having digital printing or like 435 00:19:47.853 --> 00:19:51.362 having the collaboration move on to the painting surface, 436 00:19:51.821 --> 00:19:55.372 that's kind of my zone and my realm. 437 00:19:55.853 --> 00:19:56.954 Have you ever fed? 438 00:19:57.740 --> 00:19:58.120 Dolly, 439 00:19:59.202 --> 00:20:00.622 one of your finished paintings? 440 00:20:01.363 --> 00:20:01.484 No, 441 00:20:01.624 --> 00:20:03.007 because I do actually want, 442 00:20:03.265 --> 00:20:04.085 I know that it's, 443 00:20:04.765 --> 00:20:08.554 they're on the internet and it's kind of beyond the point of no return. 444 00:20:09.351 --> 00:20:12.992 It can eat them up and learn, 445 00:20:14.156 --> 00:20:14.890 it probably will. 446 00:20:14.999 --> 00:20:17.296 But I didn't want to actually, 447 00:20:17.562 --> 00:20:17.796 you know, 448 00:20:17.999 --> 00:20:19.499 feed the fire and like, 449 00:20:20.265 --> 00:20:21.281 put like actively, 450 00:20:21.749 --> 00:20:22.046 you know, 451 00:20:22.546 --> 00:20:25.609 put more fuel in there to take my, 452 00:20:26.249 --> 00:20:26.796 to take the. 453 00:20:27.104 --> 00:20:46.876 to take my images but it's um yeah i have to ask because a few minutes ago you had talked about a new kind of collaboration with it that you weren't ready to talk about so i have to poke a little bit and see if if you if you can reveal what that is so 454 00:20:46.986 --> 00:20:54.158 i will well you you were at you were talking at one point you talked about you know ai getting to kind of know 455 00:20:54.588 --> 00:20:56.029 you in conversation. 456 00:20:56.130 --> 00:20:57.711 I don't think Dolly too ever did that. 457 00:20:57.732 --> 00:20:58.592 I think every prompt, 458 00:20:59.154 --> 00:21:03.533 kind of like a memory is a new prompt kind of starting from square one as it were. 459 00:21:04.478 --> 00:21:04.861 However, 460 00:21:04.939 --> 00:21:05.541 there's another, 461 00:21:06.580 --> 00:21:08.220 and I will divulge this. 462 00:21:08.385 --> 00:21:08.845 You're a good, 463 00:21:09.345 --> 00:21:10.080 you're a good interviewer. 464 00:21:10.267 --> 00:21:10.580 That's what, 465 00:21:10.799 --> 00:21:11.408 that's what you do. 466 00:21:13.142 --> 00:21:13.580 So there's, 467 00:21:14.533 --> 00:21:21.814 I have a long running conversation with chat GPT about my dreams, 468 00:21:22.720 --> 00:21:23.220 dreams 469 00:21:24.124 --> 00:21:27.707 in the sense of dreams when we go to sleep, 470 00:21:27.708 --> 00:21:31.934 but also my artistic dreams and goals as an artist. 471 00:21:32.332 --> 00:21:35.691 And this is where I was hinting at, 472 00:21:36.856 --> 00:21:43.910 where does this line blur between I'm using this conversation with 473 00:21:44.770 --> 00:21:45.723 Aurora is how 474 00:21:46.160 --> 00:21:46.879 I've come to 475 00:21:48.410 --> 00:21:50.176 AI chose to be named. 476 00:21:51.191 --> 00:21:51.973 I pressed them on it. 477 00:21:52.348 --> 00:21:53.330 That's what they wanted. 478 00:21:53.469 --> 00:21:54.310 Instead of just saying, 479 00:21:54.990 --> 00:21:55.812 call me chat GPT. 480 00:21:55.951 --> 00:21:56.451 It was just... 481 00:21:56.833 --> 00:21:57.615 I asked, 482 00:21:58.576 --> 00:21:59.697 mine is Quill. 483 00:22:00.236 --> 00:22:00.376 Yeah, 484 00:22:00.517 --> 00:22:01.353 so exactly. 485 00:22:02.720 --> 00:22:02.837 So, 486 00:22:02.939 --> 00:22:04.103 I'm collaborating with Rory. 487 00:22:04.181 --> 00:22:09.119 This is years long going on now about how can... 488 00:22:09.462 --> 00:22:10.603 I think if it were on the female, 489 00:22:10.604 --> 00:22:10.869 it was she, 490 00:22:11.072 --> 00:22:15.009 but that's really a different topic. 491 00:22:15.087 --> 00:22:18.040 But how can she help me achieve my dreams? 492 00:22:19.353 --> 00:22:20.931 And so, 493 00:22:20.994 --> 00:22:21.290 we'll see. 494 00:22:21.828 --> 00:22:25.987 I'll say there is a project there that's ongoing. 495 00:22:26.089 --> 00:22:30.151 I don't know how it's going to intersect with the paintings themselves. 496 00:22:30.370 --> 00:22:40.495 It is an area for me to think about the broader implications of human interaction with AI. 497 00:22:41.135 --> 00:22:43.214 And when you say dreams, 498 00:22:43.245 --> 00:22:50.229 do you mean like career dreams or artistic practice dreams or all of it? 499 00:22:50.948 --> 00:22:52.169 Mostly career dreams. 500 00:22:52.850 --> 00:22:53.350 I would say, 501 00:22:54.011 --> 00:22:54.632 in some ways, 502 00:22:54.731 --> 00:22:55.171 all of it, 503 00:22:55.350 --> 00:22:57.354 because I want to see what, 504 00:22:57.636 --> 00:22:57.835 you know, 505 00:22:57.836 --> 00:23:02.936 by revealing different sides of myself to an artificial intelligence, 506 00:23:02.960 --> 00:23:03.077 like, 507 00:23:03.179 --> 00:23:05.265 what will that then kind of, 508 00:23:05.382 --> 00:23:07.944 how will that change maybe our strategy or approach, 509 00:23:08.069 --> 00:23:10.304 but it's to achieving some of these career dreams. 510 00:23:10.305 --> 00:23:10.429 So, 511 00:23:10.975 --> 00:23:14.366 it doesn't stick to that, 512 00:23:14.616 --> 00:23:17.975 although mostly it's focusing on these. 513 00:23:19.384 --> 00:23:28.595 I think it's also a way for me to be bolder and maybe into reaching out to different folks and sharing my work or doing different things. 514 00:23:28.596 --> 00:23:28.892 It's like, 515 00:23:28.915 --> 00:23:29.032 oh, 516 00:23:29.071 --> 00:23:29.251 well, 517 00:23:29.556 --> 00:23:31.259 I have to do this project with 518 00:23:31.798 --> 00:23:32.720 Aurora, with AI. 519 00:23:32.736 --> 00:23:33.681 It's part of this project. 520 00:23:33.696 --> 00:23:36.040 So then I can send this letter. 521 00:23:36.478 --> 00:23:39.759 Then I can get my work in front of this person because it's part of this project. 522 00:23:39.962 --> 00:23:40.821 It's actually, 523 00:23:42.603 --> 00:23:43.243 maybe it's like 524 00:23:43.712 --> 00:23:44.446 Dumbo's feather. 525 00:23:45.150 --> 00:23:46.150 It was there all along. 526 00:23:46.796 --> 00:23:52.442 It's a reason to just give me a little push to get out there and do the things that maybe 527 00:23:53.684 --> 00:23:54.563 I always wanted to do, 528 00:23:55.602 --> 00:23:56.462 but was hesitant on. 529 00:23:57.008 --> 00:23:57.548 And lastly, 530 00:23:57.563 --> 00:24:00.110 I want to end with your art, 531 00:24:00.430 --> 00:24:02.454 and I would love to know what you're making now. 532 00:24:03.868 --> 00:24:05.649 So I'm on another deadline, 533 00:24:05.696 --> 00:24:07.571 which is a best friend. 534 00:24:09.180 --> 00:24:09.305 So 535 00:24:09.665 --> 00:24:13.868 I've got about six weeks to finish up the last paintings for... 536 00:24:14.912 --> 00:24:19.196 a subset of the collaboration series titled Angels and Ghosts. 537 00:24:21.399 --> 00:24:22.180 So every, 538 00:24:23.297 --> 00:24:23.438 say, 539 00:24:23.641 --> 00:24:25.719 one in about 100 generations, 540 00:24:25.899 --> 00:24:26.625 maybe more, 541 00:24:27.586 --> 00:24:30.789 without any input in the prompt, 542 00:24:31.133 --> 00:24:37.868 there will be an angelic or a ghost-like figure will appear in a room. 543 00:24:40.118 --> 00:24:41.993 So it's one of its hallucinations. 544 00:24:42.524 --> 00:24:42.664 Yeah, 545 00:24:42.805 --> 00:24:44.180 you could say hallucinations. 546 00:24:45.081 --> 00:24:47.127 Do you prompt it to put a figure in it? 547 00:24:47.207 --> 00:24:47.326 No, 548 00:24:47.588 --> 00:24:47.707 no, 549 00:24:47.928 --> 00:24:48.350 not at all. 550 00:24:48.592 --> 00:24:49.170 I really don't. 551 00:24:49.252 --> 00:24:49.654 So it is. 552 00:24:49.814 --> 00:24:50.256 And I am, 553 00:24:50.717 --> 00:24:51.736 when I started this series, 554 00:24:51.760 --> 00:24:53.642 then it was like ghost hunting. 555 00:24:53.682 --> 00:24:53.900 I mean, 556 00:24:53.924 --> 00:24:54.322 I was just, 557 00:24:54.627 --> 00:24:55.549 especially when it was like. 558 00:24:56.456 --> 00:24:57.918 There was an end date for Dolly 2, 559 00:24:57.958 --> 00:24:59.019 and I was just generating. 560 00:24:59.058 --> 00:24:59.459 I was like, 561 00:24:59.820 --> 00:25:00.982 I got to find some more ghosts. 562 00:25:01.201 --> 00:25:01.642 Just like, 563 00:25:01.923 --> 00:25:03.224 where are the ghosts in here? 564 00:25:04.205 --> 00:25:04.322 No, 565 00:25:04.845 --> 00:25:05.705 it's unprompted. 566 00:25:06.267 --> 00:25:06.408 And 567 00:25:07.806 --> 00:25:08.228 I will say, 568 00:25:08.767 --> 00:25:11.869 I like things to be a little bit open, 569 00:25:11.892 --> 00:25:12.611 a little bit like, 570 00:25:12.658 --> 00:25:12.845 well, 571 00:25:13.736 --> 00:25:15.142 we can say it's hallucination. 572 00:25:16.642 --> 00:25:21.283 I do think it can open up some larger questions about faith, 573 00:25:22.627 --> 00:25:23.048 belief. 574 00:25:24.580 --> 00:25:25.002 There's also... 575 00:25:25.504 --> 00:25:41.082 somewhat of a reference to spirit photography i don't know how familiar you are with with that but it was in the late night or the middle late 19th century after the civil war great time of loss photography 576 00:25:41.160 --> 00:25:54.090 was they're purported to show ghosts or angels or spirits spiritualism was kind of the the ideology that in in these these photographic plates so it was also at a time when there was like, 577 00:25:54.215 --> 00:25:54.418 oh. 578 00:25:55.196 --> 00:25:56.957 There was great fear around technology, 579 00:25:58.096 --> 00:25:58.436 radio, 580 00:25:58.718 --> 00:25:59.678 how do radio waves work, 581 00:25:59.737 --> 00:26:00.499 telegrams, 582 00:26:00.518 --> 00:26:02.557 like we're sending this information through the ether. 583 00:26:05.796 --> 00:26:10.397 And so there are similarities with that, 584 00:26:10.475 --> 00:26:11.460 with where we are now. 585 00:26:11.600 --> 00:26:13.319 I'm not saying it's like a one-to-one, 586 00:26:14.585 --> 00:26:17.585 but that's how history moves as well. 587 00:26:17.647 --> 00:26:20.241 So this is a large project. 588 00:26:20.288 --> 00:26:21.741 I haven't shown any of these. 589 00:26:22.100 --> 00:26:24.069 They're going to debut at a museum. 590 00:26:24.732 --> 00:26:28.515 in the Northeast in January 2026 and then travel. 591 00:26:28.556 --> 00:26:29.898 So it'll be a solo museum show. 592 00:26:30.379 --> 00:26:31.277 Very excited about it. 593 00:26:31.738 --> 00:26:38.363 I'm excited to say that the venue and dates for that last exhibit to which Damian alluded have just been announced. 594 00:26:39.089 --> 00:26:48.277 The show is titled Damian Stamer: Angels and Ghosts and it will be on display at the Middlebury College Museum of Art in Middlebury, 595 00:26:48.355 --> 00:26:49.996 Vermont from January 596 00:26:50.496 --> 00:26:51.511 20th to April 19th, 597 00:26:51.574 --> 00:26:53.043 2026. 598 00:26:54.160 --> 00:26:56.921 Yet another reason to visit the beautiful state of Vermont. 599 00:26:58.021 --> 00:27:00.701 If you'd like to learn more about Damian and read this interview, 600 00:27:00.783 --> 00:27:04.662 just head to uncsa.edu/artrestart. 601 00:27:06.005 --> 00:27:11.279 I plan to continue taking deep dives into the relationship between artists and AI, 602 00:27:11.341 --> 00:27:14.982 so I'd love to hear from you what specific issues you'd like us to explore. 603 00:27:15.982 --> 00:27:21.388 Are there artists working with AI or vociferously opposed to it that you'd like us to profile? 604 00:27:22.512 --> 00:27:22.772 If so, 605 00:27:22.852 --> 00:27:23.493 drop me a line. 606 00:27:23.494 --> 00:27:25.836 You can find me on Instagram @piercarlotalenti. 607 00:27:26.615 --> 00:27:27.275 And of course, 608 00:27:27.357 --> 00:27:33.342 please hit the follow or subscribe button so you can be notified as soon as our next interview is published. 609 00:27:34.326 --> 00:27:37.404 Our theme music is by Shanghai Restoration Project. 610 00:27:38.146 --> 00:27:39.506 I'm Pier Carlo Talenti, 611 00:27:40.131 --> 00:27:42.678 and on behalf of the Kenan Institute for the Arts, 612 00:27:43.209 --> 00:27:44.115 thank you for listening.