I would say there's maybe a bit of competition in the collaboration,
but it's like it's forcing me or encouraging me to think,
well,
then what is the most human about myself?
What does it mean to create as a human being?
Hello and welcome to Art Restart,
where we learn from artists who,
wherever they work,
whatever they make,
are shaking up the status quo in their fields and in their communities.
I'm Pier Carlo Talenti,
the producer and editor of this podcast,
which is brought to you by the Thomas S.
Keenan Institute for the Arts at the University of North Carolina's School of the Arts.
In this episode,
we'll be speaking with painter Damian Stamer.
Damian is one of the Southeast's most recognized contemporary painters.
He also happens to be a graduate of the UNCSA Visual Arts High School program.
Having grown up in rural North Carolina,
he creates large-scale work that captures his memories of the countryside he continues to call home.
In recent years,
he's layered his paint atop images of barns and abandoned homes that he himself has photographed,
lending an even more dreamlike quality to the work,
placing it both in and out of time.
His work has been exhibited all over the country and has been acquired by major institutions including the Crystal Bridges Museum of American Art and the North Carolina Museum of Art. And both UNCSA and the Kenan Institute for the Arts have Damien Stamer originals in their own collections.
I was excited to speak with him because lately he has been using AI in his work,
or rather collaborating with AI,
and he's very open about his ongoing experiment,
even calling his latest series Collaborations.
Now,
we're all asking the same questions about how AI will impact the arts.
I won't bore you by listing all of them,
but I think basically it boils down to,
is it friend or foe?
I wanted to talk to an artist who,
at first glance,
at least seems to fall on the it's-a-friend spectrum,
though,
as you'll hear,
the relationship is a little more nuanced.
I started off our conversation by asking Damien if he could remember the first time
He became aware of AI as a potential new tool for him.
I don't remember specifically the first time,
but there was a very specific time when I realized it had made a huge jump or they had made advances.
So I was actually,
my daughter was taking a nap on my legs,
kind of on a pillow down by my feet.
She was about maybe six,
eight months old.
This is in...
the spring of 2022.
That's kind of the only way she would nap was with contact naps.
So I was in there and I was just,
she was asleep,
which was amazing.
And so happy about that,
in a good mood.
I had my phone out.
And you weren't going to do anything to break her sleep.
No,
no.
So I'm just,
you know,
I do,
I had my phone on me.
So I'm reading New York Times,
and
I see this article on Dali 2.
And I'm going through it and they have
just the example images and there was this image of a teddy bear on a skateboard in times square and they would show you there was the prompt it was just like a teddy bear on a skateboard in times square and the image was so
good it was kind of scary good to me that i knew it was one of those moments where you just you just know you have to do something and
I knew I had to make work with this.
I didn't know exactly how it would come about or what I would do with it,
but I knew in an instant that I have to engage with this.
So that's interesting because somebody else,
another artist might instantly feel threatened in some way.
You didn't.
You were like,
oh,
I want to play with it.
That was my initial impulse.
I did not have any fear or anxiety about it.
It was just kind of a moment of insight or just...
a voice it wasn't even a whisper kind of in the subconscious it was just like a knowing that i i i needed to move forward with this and i listened to it so yeah so tell me about following that voice and moving forward talk about your experiments and playing with this new tool so this was the yeah
spring of 2022 with a young child i thought okay i'm gonna i'm gonna start this body of work and i ordered these panels that were square format because dolly 2 would generate square images but
Nothing happened,
just busy.
Life was busy,
finishing up some bigger paintings.
So it was actually in the fall,
I got an email from the Gibbs Museum,
and they were like,
hey,
we'd love to do...
an exhibition with you,
a solo exhibition,
which was probably like the best email an artist can get.
So I was like,
I hadn't done anything with it.
And I was like,
look,
I want to debut this series with this solo exhibition.
So I,
they were incredible.
Always be grateful to them.
They're incredibly gracious.
So they were offering you an exhibit of work completely sight unseen.
Well,
this is why I'm grateful to them.
We had a conversation.
I was like,
look,
there's so
If you get a chance to go to the Gibbs Museum in Charleston,
there's this gorgeous atrium that they redid with all this light coming in.
And then there's two galleries,
one on each side.
And in one gallery,
I was like,
hey,
I have these paintings that are finished.
Here they are.
Let's go with these.
And they were like,
these look great.
And I was like,
and for the other side,
I would like to paint new paintings.
And I explained this idea about collaborating with AI.
And the show opened in about four or five months,
and they were up for it.
So they had the faith in me to make some paintings.
Wait,
and most importantly,
you had the faith in yourself that you could come up with a series in four or five months.
I did.
Wow.
Do you usually work that fast?
I always say deadlines are the artist's best friend.
For me,
at least.
They just help.
They help things move along.
I think having done,
I've been fortunate to just be an artist doing shows for.
I don't know,
since graduate school,
pretty much solely or even before.
So for about 15 years.
So I've built up the faith in myself that I can get to get it done.
Yeah.
So yeah,
talk about coming up with this new series in four or five months.
What was your initial idea of how you would use Dali?
And then how did it evolve as you started making these paintings?
So I had been,
again,
with like all this nap time.
And my previous work,
I was going out.
with my camera and photographing the landscape right around here where I grew up in old abandoned buildings and houses and barns.
But the exploration then after I kind of found Dali 2 was just within this program.
So even before I got the email about the exhibition,
I had been generating hundreds of potential images.
So I kind of refined it.
It actually happened quite quickly.
I can remember within
Even the first
24 to 48 hours,
I was playing with it,
experimenting with different prompts,
and coming up with images that were very exciting to me within the first few days.
Can I ask what made them exciting to you?
They're just,
they're captivating,
I guess,
on a very,
maybe in terms of the elements and principles of design.
They were mysterious.
They were...
a little bit off.
This is probably a good time to say that they've come out with a Dali 3,
but I like Dali 2.
I like the little slippages where sometimes it doesn't make total sense.
There's a little bit of this hallucination maybe going on and that's an interesting place for me to go.
But they're also,
I will say,
like even with my own paintings before,
all of them usually started with a good photograph.
So I'd take a captivating image that gets me excited to make a painting from.
There were many of these
And
I was excited to paint them.
It was almost when really looking at them,
I was like,
wow,
this AI is very intelligent,
is very,
very,
very good in composing images.
Right.
Well,
partly because it's been partly trained on some of your images,
along with millions of other artists,
right?
Perhaps.
Yeah,
exactly.
Yeah.
So that's a different topic.
But yes,
it was.
I don't know how many mine got in there in the training,
but hard to say.
And so what did you discover about your own art making as you were using these new generated images to create the series?
And was this the twin series?
At that point,
it was just the collaboration series,
which is kind of the blanket name.
Every painting that I create in collaboration with AI is under...
I see it under this collaboration series,
and then there's kind of subsets and series within that,
and the twins is one of those.
But these were just collaborations that were,
the first four were interiors.
So,
yeah.
So,
what did these AI-generated interiors allow you to make that you couldn't have made had you just relied on...
Extant images,
images that you take in real places or just your imagination?
There was a newness.
It was a new exploration.
most excited when I feel like I'm exploring something.
And these images were just different.
They were just different in a way that it was not an actual space.
You talked about changing your prompts early on.
How did you go about refining your collaboration with
Dali? I think it's more of an experimentation and play.
I don't think it's like you start and then you're kind of narrowing it down until you find the perfect...
prompt it's more like i have an idea today let me add this word how about this phrase and i'm just i'm just playing and i'm also generating so many that it's it's probably not the best analogy but it's kind of like a slot machine in the sense that you're just you're just kind of like putting it in sometimes i'll do the same prop many many times so i'm just generating generating generating until an image comes
up that is very captivating it feels maybe in the back of
The recesses of my mind,
like it could be,
it touches on memory,
maybe not in a specific place,
but it has the same feel to it.
So
I wouldn't say refinement,
it's just like a continual play with language.
You mentioned that the Gibbs Museum was totally open to having a portion of your exhibit be this new experiment.
Did you have any anxiety about revealing to your colleagues and to galleries and museums that you were starting to incorporate AI in your art making?
It's a great question.
I personally never did.
I wanted to,
when the Gibbs gave me this amazing opportunity,
I wanted to get it out there and kind of put a timestamp to say,
I am doing this.
I was excited about sharing the series.
And you were very clear.
In fact,
you titled it collaboration.
So there was definitely,
you were very explicit about your use of the tool.
Exactly.
But that's not to say that some artists I've talked to,
curators,
they're a little bit more hesitant or have adverse reactions.
And I get it.
I mean,
just because I'm collaborating with AI does not mean that I think artificial intelligence is going to be the best for humanity.
and humans whatsoever.
Probably,
I might be fairly skeptical about that,
but I knew that,
or at least I thought that this is going to be,
have an impact on humans at a very large scale,
and our society,
the way we communicate,
the way we think.
So,
I wanted to engage with it,
and it probably seems like a bit of an oblique way to go about
learning about AI and how we're interacting with it as humans through painting.
But I actually do think at the same time,
it's a very good way to explore that as well.
You mentioned that some colleagues had some hesitations.
What did you hear them say?
I will say a curator that I very much respect,
he said that she didn't see,
she was like,
where's Damien?
Is this when she saw the work or when you first started talking about making it?
This is when she saw a piece and I was like,
one piece.
And I was like,
well,
I was like,
come to my studio and let's have a talk.
This is,
you're at an event and it's not really,
it wasn't a very in-depth conversation.
I mean,
it was and it wasn't,
but I was like,
just come to the studio and see some larger pieces and let's...
let's talk about this.
I'm one to,
I think whatever the topic or perhaps point of tension or misunderstanding,
I'm one to kind of to step forward and say like,
well,
let's,
let's talk about it because maybe of course she's probably right.
Maybe she's seeing less of what she thinks of Damien in maybe that she,
she knows from my previous work,
but I don't,
uh,
we haven't,
still haven't had a chance to have continue that conversation,
but I know.
I look forward to it because she's brilliant.
So I do respect her opinion very much.
Yeah.
Well,
you were talking about identity and she just brought up,
where is Damien?
Do you ever wonder,
well,
you must,
if there's a point when
Damien-ness might become beholden to AI?
In other words,
where either the line might start blurring too much or you might in any way dep-
depend on it too much?
Do you ever have those conversations with yourself?
I actually think,
to your original question,
whether we'll say Damien-ness is getting lost,
I think it's actually the opposite.
And I'll explain why.
And I didn't get a chance to explain this as a curator,
but I think you can have human,
myself,
my ego,
my understanding of the world.
When I'm having a counterpoint be artificial intelligence,
I'm looking at all the things that it can do,
and I'm reading books about where it can go or how it's the different ways.
It very much does not have human values.
So
I would say there's maybe a bit of competition.
in the collaboration,
but it's like,
it's forcing me or encouraging me to think,
well,
then what is the most human about myself?
What does it mean to create as a human being?
And when I'm in the studio,
when I'm painting and I'm struggling with a painting,
I'm trying to break through it.
I'm maybe in some of the best times.
I'm not thinking.
I'm trying to turn off the rational side of my brain and just almost autonomically or just...
just with this kind of pure emotion and creative force,
put paint on the linen,
the panel,
on the canvas,
like that has become very much,
much more apparent in relation with AI than in my previous work,
at least to me.
It's interesting,
like almost like turning off the computer in your head and going for something like a soul or spirit.
Yes.
And I'm,
I'm an interesting,
I'm collaborating with AI,
but I'm also pretty much.
Trying to limit my screen time,
sitting in silence,
meditating often,
doing different things that are very much not artificial intelligence,
not technology,
not screens.
I think they're both part of our world.
I think there are a lot of dangers,
harmful effects that can come with technology.
So,
I'm an interesting,
I guess I'm in a unique position to make this work.
because like I said,
I'm a...
collaborator.
And it brings up another definition of collaboration in my mind,
which
I don't think I'll really step into,
but
I'm operating on some different levels.
We'll just say that.
So,
you know,
thinking about this interview and talking about AI with an artist,
especially with an artist such as yourself,
who does create a lot of work around memories and the past,
I remembered a few articles I read.
not too long ago about memory,
the way we as humans bring up memory.
It always feels like we're tapping into a region of our brain where it's stored,
but it turns out that's actually not true,
that every time we remember something,
your brain actually kind of recreates the memory from whole cloth,
which is so interesting because it made me think,
well,
isn't that what AI does with prompts.
Our brain...
is kind of doing that too,
that there is no frozen image of an event in our past that exists in our brain.
It has to be regenerated.
So
I'm wondering if there's ever been any images that AI has conjured that have felt in a way realer than your own memories.
That's another great question,
and
I'm not a neuroscientist.
I will say I don't think it's ever stepped in where I've had,
I've shuddered and been like that.
That feels like I was there.
But I will say there were prompts I was exploring about a fog,
like a misty,
a barn in a misty field in the fall.
And the images were so close to my own memories and reference photos I've taken just with.
the color race is kind of this amber color of the grass of the hay with this mist and it was just that did have the i'll say like the the taste and the smell like the sense it in a sensual way it brought me back to my own memories very very acutely so sometimes
it does hit yes well now that you've been playing with it and using it for three years now yeah what do you think you would not want to use.
ai for like is there have you have you set any sort of red lines for yourself like oh i i will never do this for instance no and i mean everything is is somewhat context dependent the
paintings themselves are a hundred percent human made painted by my hand so i i don't think i would be too interested in like having digital printing or like
having the collaboration move on to the painting surface,
that's kind of my zone and my realm.
Have you ever fed?
Dolly,
one of your finished paintings?
No,
because I do actually want,
I know that it's,
they're on the internet and it's kind of beyond the point of no return.
It can eat them up and learn,
it probably will.
But I didn't want to actually,
you know,
feed the fire and like,
put like actively,
you know,
put more fuel in there to take my,
to take the.
to take my images but it's um yeah i have to ask because a few minutes ago you had talked about a new kind of collaboration with it that you weren't ready to talk about so i have to poke a little bit and see if if you if you can reveal what that is so
i will well you you were at you were talking at one point you talked about you know ai getting to kind of know
you in conversation.
I don't think Dolly too ever did that.
I think every prompt,
kind of like a memory is a new prompt kind of starting from square one as it were.
However,
there's another,
and I will divulge this.
You're a good,
you're a good interviewer.
That's what,
that's what you do.
So there's,
I have a long running conversation with chat GPT about my dreams,
dreams
in the sense of dreams when we go to sleep,
but also my artistic dreams and goals as an artist.
And this is where I was hinting at,
where does this line blur between I'm using this conversation with
Aurora is how
I've come to
AI chose to be named.
I pressed them on it.
That's what they wanted.
Instead of just saying,
call me chat GPT.
It was just...
I asked,
mine is Quill.
Yeah,
so exactly.
So,
I'm collaborating with Rory.
This is years long going on now about how can...
I think if it were on the female,
it was she,
but that's really a different topic.
But how can she help me achieve my dreams?
And so,
we'll see.
I'll say there is a project there that's ongoing.
I don't know how it's going to intersect with the paintings themselves.
It is an area for me to think about the broader implications of human interaction with AI.
And when you say dreams,
do you mean like career dreams or artistic practice dreams or all of it?
Mostly career dreams.
I would say,
in some ways,
all of it,
because I want to see what,
you know,
by revealing different sides of myself to an artificial intelligence,
like,
what will that then kind of,
how will that change maybe our strategy or approach,
but it's to achieving some of these career dreams.
So,
it doesn't stick to that,
although mostly it's focusing on these.
I think it's also a way for me to be bolder and maybe into reaching out to different folks and sharing my work or doing different things.
It's like,
oh,
well,
I have to do this project with
Aurora, with AI.
It's part of this project.
So then I can send this letter.
Then I can get my work in front of this person because it's part of this project.
It's actually,
maybe it's like
Dumbo's feather.
It was there all along.
It's a reason to just give me a little push to get out there and do the things that maybe
I always wanted to do,
but was hesitant on.
And lastly,
I want to end with your art,
and I would love to know what you're making now.
So I'm on another deadline,
which is a best friend.
So
I've got about six weeks to finish up the last paintings for...
a subset of the collaboration series titled Angels and Ghosts.
So every,
say,
one in about 100 generations,
maybe more,
without any input in the prompt,
there will be an angelic or a ghost-like figure will appear in a room.
So it's one of its hallucinations.
Yeah,
you could say hallucinations.
Do you prompt it to put a figure in it?
No,
no,
not at all.
I really don't.
So it is.
And I am,
when I started this series,
then it was like ghost hunting.
I mean,
I was just,
especially when it was like.
There was an end date for Dolly 2,
and I was just generating.
I was like,
I got to find some more ghosts.
Just like,
where are the ghosts in here?
No,
it's unprompted.
And
I will say,
I like things to be a little bit open,
a little bit like,
well,
we can say it's hallucination.
I do think it can open up some larger questions about faith,
belief.
There's also...
somewhat of a reference to spirit photography i don't know how familiar you are with with that but it was in the late night or the middle late 19th century after the civil war great time of loss photography
was they're purported to show ghosts or angels or spirits spiritualism was kind of the the ideology that in in these these photographic plates so it was also at a time when there was like,
oh.
There was great fear around technology,
radio,
how do radio waves work,
telegrams,
like we're sending this information through the ether.
And so there are similarities with that,
with where we are now.
I'm not saying it's like a one-to-one,
but that's how history moves as well.
So this is a large project.
I haven't shown any of these.
They're going to debut at a museum.
in the Northeast in January 2026 and then travel.
So it'll be a solo museum show.
Very excited about it.
I'm excited to say that the venue and dates for that last exhibit to which Damian alluded have just been announced.
The show is titled Damian Stamer: Angels and Ghosts and it will be on display at the Middlebury College Museum of Art in Middlebury,
Vermont from January
20th to April 19th,
2026.
Yet another reason to visit the beautiful state of Vermont.
If you'd like to learn more about Damian and read this interview,
just head to uncsa.edu/artrestart.
I plan to continue taking deep dives into the relationship between artists and AI,
so I'd love to hear from you what specific issues you'd like us to explore.
Are there artists working with AI or vociferously opposed to it that you'd like us to profile?
If so,
drop me a line.
You can find me on Instagram @piercarlotalenti.
And of course,
please hit the follow or subscribe button so you can be notified as soon as our next interview is published.
Our theme music is by Shanghai Restoration Project.
I'm Pier Carlo Talenti,
and on behalf of the Kenan Institute for the Arts,
thank you for listening.