WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.060 --> 00:00:04.964 We have to stop to consider citizens as a rationalistic consumer. 2 00:00:05.405 --> 00:00:08.868 What we have to think now is in terms of practice, 3 00:00:09.248 --> 00:00:10.289 time and labor. 4 00:00:10.489 --> 00:00:13.933 So how we are going to rely on people. 5 00:00:14.473 --> 00:00:16.134 And regarding flexibility, 6 00:00:19.938 --> 00:00:25.022 there is a phrase that keeps coming up in EU energy legislation, 7 00:00:25.403 --> 00:00:26.484 consumer empowerment. 8 00:00:27.004 --> 00:00:29.525 It's in the energy market directives. 9 00:00:29.606 --> 00:00:32.087 It runs through the citizens energy package. 10 00:00:32.707 --> 00:00:37.530 It shapes how flexibility programs are justified to the public. 11 00:00:38.210 --> 00:00:43.473 The idea is that households should be active participants in the energy systems, 12 00:00:43.974 --> 00:00:45.634 adjusting when they use power, 13 00:00:45.955 --> 00:00:47.375 responding to price signals, 14 00:00:47.435 --> 00:00:49.557 benefiting from smarter markets. 15 00:00:50.577 --> 00:00:52.358 It's a compelling vision. 16 00:00:53.059 --> 00:00:55.420 The problem is that when you look at who 17 00:00:55.720 --> 00:01:01.604 is actually managing to participate and who ends up carrying the cost of participating, 18 00:01:01.804 --> 00:01:07.127 the picture is a lot more uneven than what the policy language suggests. 19 00:01:07.728 --> 00:01:10.009 In the last few episodes of Energetic, 20 00:01:10.089 --> 00:01:13.131 we've been circling this territory from different angles. 21 00:01:13.291 --> 00:01:17.094 Elra Koop showed us how women are already leading renovation decisions, 22 00:01:17.654 --> 00:01:20.176 but the system is then designed around them. 23 00:01:20.752 --> 00:01:21.392 In Vilnius, 24 00:01:21.432 --> 00:01:28.696 we saw how collective housing actions can stall the moment it hits governance structures that weren't built for it. 25 00:01:29.496 --> 00:01:30.196 Sean Lyle, 26 00:01:30.276 --> 00:01:31.317 the early January, 27 00:01:31.797 --> 00:01:35.178 pushed back on the idea that people just need better explanations. 28 00:01:35.859 --> 00:01:40.321 That the real question is whether the system meets them where they actually are. 29 00:01:41.481 --> 00:01:45.383 Today's guest takes that question into the research space. 30 00:01:45.563 --> 00:01:47.704 My guest is my friend Aurore Dutka. 31 00:01:47.924 --> 00:01:48.885 who's a researcher, 32 00:01:48.985 --> 00:01:49.665 consultant, 33 00:01:49.725 --> 00:01:51.667 and someone who has spent many, 34 00:01:51.707 --> 00:02:03.677 many years building careful empirical evidence on what the energy transition actually asks of the household it claims to serve and what happens when the design gets it wrong. 35 00:02:04.197 --> 00:02:04.958 I'm Marine Cornelis, 36 00:02:05.118 --> 00:02:06.279 and this is Energetic. 37 00:02:08.240 --> 00:02:08.401 Oho, 38 00:02:08.581 --> 00:02:09.541 welcome to the show. 39 00:02:10.222 --> 00:02:10.582 Thank you. 40 00:02:11.043 --> 00:02:11.163 So, 41 00:02:11.623 --> 00:02:12.244 Oho, 42 00:02:12.624 --> 00:02:13.905 it's not the first time you're on the show, 43 00:02:14.265 --> 00:02:17.448 But I think we never dug into what your... 44 00:02:18.048 --> 00:02:28.854 very interesting and original journey is because you started out as a financial auditor and then you retrained as a professor of economics and sociology. 45 00:02:29.314 --> 00:02:30.275 Then you moved to Italy. 46 00:02:30.635 --> 00:02:33.637 Then you did a PhD on women in energy community. 47 00:02:34.297 --> 00:02:35.177 That's quite a journey. 48 00:02:35.758 --> 00:02:47.284 So at what point did you realize that the energy sector was so central and it had a structural problem with whom and with who it included. 49 00:02:47.624 --> 00:02:49.965 and what made that visible to you? 50 00:02:51.045 --> 00:02:51.345 Okay, 51 00:02:51.645 --> 00:02:54.826 it's a very good question because indeed 52 00:02:55.166 --> 00:02:58.107 I have not liked classical journey and 53 00:02:58.447 --> 00:03:03.448 I have been mostly autodidact in my way to get here. 54 00:03:03.528 --> 00:03:15.411 So sometimes I have the impression just destiny because but I think one main point and it's very interesting for maybe also the disco we will make today just from my background, 55 00:03:15.552 --> 00:03:16.492 familiar background, 56 00:03:16.652 --> 00:03:17.052 I never... 57 00:03:17.452 --> 00:03:21.493 like really imagine an academic career for myself. 58 00:03:22.473 --> 00:03:23.634 I was good at school, 59 00:03:23.754 --> 00:03:24.234 but you know, 60 00:03:24.274 --> 00:03:25.454 when you come from a popular family, 61 00:03:25.494 --> 00:03:28.355 it's not like the things that comes to you. 62 00:03:28.375 --> 00:03:32.756 So I just basically go to class preparatoire and 63 00:03:33.356 --> 00:03:33.597 I say, 64 00:03:33.598 --> 00:03:33.837 okay, 65 00:03:33.937 --> 00:03:40.999 let's make a business school and go to finance because it was the thing I was expecting to give me more business opportunity. 66 00:03:41.959 --> 00:03:42.539 And then 67 00:03:43.319 --> 00:03:44.400 I find my way. 68 00:03:45.140 --> 00:03:45.520 Let's see. 69 00:03:46.000 --> 00:03:46.440 and 70 00:03:47.581 --> 00:03:50.983 I passed like a scholarship that I win for PhD. 71 00:03:51.604 --> 00:03:53.325 So it has been like, 72 00:03:54.946 --> 00:03:55.727 as I told you, 73 00:03:55.728 --> 00:03:56.167 a destiny. 74 00:03:56.247 --> 00:03:57.148 And when I, 75 00:03:57.988 --> 00:04:02.011 how I come to this issue regarding women in energy community, 76 00:04:02.051 --> 00:04:03.932 I would say I won't be provocative, 77 00:04:05.073 --> 00:04:06.934 but I have never been feminist. 78 00:04:07.354 --> 00:04:07.695 I mean, 79 00:04:08.635 --> 00:04:13.979 it's not an issue that in my life has been like very present for many years. 80 00:04:15.240 --> 00:04:15.440 and 81 00:04:15.980 --> 00:04:17.501 when I think about that now, 82 00:04:17.581 --> 00:04:21.082 I think it's really interesting because when I was younger, 83 00:04:21.682 --> 00:04:24.383 I have like really seen violence, 84 00:04:24.444 --> 00:04:25.664 but to me it was a normality. 85 00:04:26.284 --> 00:04:29.185 And I think like all what we see like Me Too, 86 00:04:30.026 --> 00:04:32.767 and also the fact to be pregnant in academy, 87 00:04:33.447 --> 00:04:36.188 it's here I realize that there is a problem. 88 00:04:36.668 --> 00:04:40.270 And it's how I come to the Women in Energy community. 89 00:04:40.750 --> 00:04:42.951 And it's also thanks to the cooperative, 90 00:04:43.331 --> 00:04:45.072 and I remember when I asked 91 00:04:45.392 --> 00:04:45.953 When I say, 92 00:04:46.274 --> 00:04:46.414 OK, 93 00:04:47.215 --> 00:04:48.297 I was very angry, 94 00:04:48.357 --> 00:04:56.429 but I was living in Italy and I think women's discrimination is a little maybe higher than what we know in France because it's not the same, 95 00:04:56.489 --> 00:04:56.890 let's say, 96 00:04:57.992 --> 00:05:00.576 society regarding women's issues. 97 00:05:01.362 --> 00:05:01.562 Also, 98 00:05:01.622 --> 00:05:02.663 with this vision, 99 00:05:02.903 --> 00:05:04.144 French vision coming here, 100 00:05:04.464 --> 00:05:05.504 it has been like something, 101 00:05:05.564 --> 00:05:05.684 OK, 102 00:05:05.865 --> 00:05:07.245 I have to work on this. 103 00:05:07.946 --> 00:05:08.266 Yeah, 104 00:05:08.586 --> 00:05:10.327 that's really interesting because there was this, 105 00:05:10.627 --> 00:05:10.787 well, 106 00:05:10.867 --> 00:05:14.289 from what you say is that you never really identified in the, 107 00:05:14.549 --> 00:05:14.849 let's say, 108 00:05:14.910 --> 00:05:16.771 more classical feminist movements. 109 00:05:17.231 --> 00:05:27.436 And then you realize that we actually needed some form of feminism to make sure that women are front and center and they are not like bypassed what society can offer, 110 00:05:27.576 --> 00:05:29.618 what the energy transition can offer. 111 00:05:29.758 --> 00:05:29.978 Right. 112 00:05:30.458 --> 00:05:32.159 And your doctoral research, 113 00:05:32.539 --> 00:05:36.421 it's super interesting also because we are recording and releasing this episode in March. 114 00:05:36.441 --> 00:05:36.581 And, 115 00:05:36.801 --> 00:05:37.041 you know, 116 00:05:37.361 --> 00:05:38.501 it's Women's Right Month. 117 00:05:38.541 --> 00:05:40.262 And your doctoral research, 118 00:05:40.402 --> 00:05:45.904 it was among the first in Europe to look specifically at women's participation in energy communities, 119 00:05:45.945 --> 00:05:46.125 right? 120 00:05:46.965 --> 00:05:57.229 So it's interesting because you yourself had to unlearn something about how participation gets defined, 121 00:05:57.269 --> 00:05:58.150 who gets counted. 122 00:05:58.190 --> 00:05:58.890 So how did... 123 00:05:59.214 --> 00:05:59.794 this work, 124 00:06:00.215 --> 00:06:01.456 your PhD work unfold? 125 00:06:02.416 --> 00:06:02.657 Yes, 126 00:06:02.757 --> 00:06:04.358 but the first thing, 127 00:06:04.538 --> 00:06:11.082 it's when we were from in collective action initiative to like neutral, 128 00:06:11.343 --> 00:06:11.643 you know, 129 00:06:12.403 --> 00:06:14.425 where we were speaking about energy community, 130 00:06:14.485 --> 00:06:21.470 like something about democratic and let's say like fast inclusive by ourselves, 131 00:06:21.471 --> 00:06:22.130 by the design. 132 00:06:22.531 --> 00:06:23.671 But when you look inside, 133 00:06:23.831 --> 00:06:26.794 you realize that it's very few women. 134 00:06:29.815 --> 00:06:32.776 So I would say it's maybe better, 135 00:06:33.036 --> 00:06:33.817 not always. 136 00:06:34.917 --> 00:06:37.858 But the question of women was not so much. 137 00:06:39.039 --> 00:06:40.139 It was like an evidence. 138 00:06:40.179 --> 00:06:41.260 We are an energy community. 139 00:06:41.340 --> 00:06:44.381 We are inclusive because of the democratic framework. 140 00:06:45.302 --> 00:06:50.024 I remember already RISCOP was asking about that. 141 00:06:50.084 --> 00:06:50.644 For example, 142 00:06:50.724 --> 00:06:52.004 Antonia Prokha-Meck. 143 00:06:52.185 --> 00:06:52.325 Yeah, 144 00:06:52.385 --> 00:06:53.925 she was a guest in the podcast. 145 00:06:53.926 --> 00:06:55.366 Excellent work about that. 146 00:06:55.866 --> 00:07:01.130 So we are very lucky to have Rescope that is very engaged on this issue. 147 00:07:01.510 --> 00:07:03.231 But let's say for energy community, 148 00:07:04.512 --> 00:07:05.793 not always it was like, 149 00:07:05.794 --> 00:07:06.053 you know, 150 00:07:06.573 --> 00:07:10.056 white engineers or steam background, 151 00:07:10.536 --> 00:07:10.796 men. 152 00:07:11.557 --> 00:07:16.840 And so I think it was very interesting to question participation, 153 00:07:16.900 --> 00:07:17.341 not like, 154 00:07:17.342 --> 00:07:17.461 OK, 155 00:07:17.961 --> 00:07:18.702 going to the meeting, 156 00:07:18.742 --> 00:07:23.185 but like the rules that are under participation. 157 00:07:23.725 --> 00:07:25.106 And this was even more important. 158 00:07:25.186 --> 00:07:42.233 important when taking also an intersectional approach of inequality because when you are educated white rich woman it's also well you are woman in energy community but what type of woman we have yeah so and 159 00:07:42.253 --> 00:07:54.658 for example in the study uh when you are i have already spoke about when you you look to poor women it's like past inexistent and it's an issue what i took question 160 00:07:55.594 --> 00:08:10.625 to question this yeah yeah because maybe the yeah as you said the energy community members of the energy community if it's a cooperative you have this the kind of values of the people that will be very they 161 00:08:10.665 --> 00:08:22.694 will strongly believe in inclusivity and because they believe it is there they don't question the actual practice and what you you did you analyze this um this kind of 162 00:08:23.310 --> 00:08:26.232 pattern in different places. 163 00:08:26.532 --> 00:08:35.858 And you really highlighted that there were still huge gaps between the intention and what was actually being done. 164 00:08:36.679 --> 00:08:36.999 It's why 165 00:08:37.440 --> 00:08:40.562 I work a lot with somebody 166 00:08:41.222 --> 00:08:41.943 I love very much, 167 00:08:42.123 --> 00:08:42.903 Elena DeJuanis, 168 00:08:43.063 --> 00:08:49.708 which is my colleague of PhD and which has been also elected the best economist last year. 169 00:08:50.288 --> 00:08:51.729 So she's always too shy. 170 00:08:51.789 --> 00:08:52.650 So I speak to her. 171 00:08:53.150 --> 00:08:55.672 for her because she's like the nicest, 172 00:08:56.392 --> 00:08:56.612 very, 173 00:08:56.692 --> 00:08:58.474 very brave scientific. 174 00:08:58.914 --> 00:09:00.315 So I took Elena to say, 175 00:09:00.316 --> 00:09:00.495 okay, 176 00:09:00.615 --> 00:09:00.855 Elena, 177 00:09:00.935 --> 00:09:03.677 we have to work about gender stereotypes in this. 178 00:09:04.398 --> 00:09:06.399 And we make this article also with Sophia, 179 00:09:06.859 --> 00:09:10.082 that already was a specialist in Poland, 180 00:09:10.122 --> 00:09:16.306 but also at the open and international level about gender stereotypes in energy community. 181 00:09:16.506 --> 00:09:19.008 And we see that also in energy community, 182 00:09:19.608 --> 00:09:21.589 This phenomenon of stereotype. 183 00:09:22.590 --> 00:09:22.990 present. 184 00:09:23.570 --> 00:09:28.652 So women tend to devalue themselves to assess that they have less competence than men. 185 00:09:29.032 --> 00:09:31.993 So what we see in the normal let's say, 186 00:09:31.994 --> 00:09:34.113 it's also in energy community. 187 00:09:34.653 --> 00:09:40.715 And we saw in this article that the idea of whole model is very important. 188 00:09:41.095 --> 00:09:44.836 When you have women in direction in an executive position, 189 00:09:44.956 --> 00:09:48.457 women tend to trust to have more, 190 00:09:48.458 --> 00:09:48.937 let's say, 191 00:09:50.518 --> 00:09:50.918 punch. 192 00:09:52.562 --> 00:09:54.768 to perform and to trust themselves. 193 00:09:56.094 --> 00:09:58.295 I think it's very important and it's why, 194 00:09:58.355 --> 00:09:58.616 Marine, 195 00:09:58.656 --> 00:10:04.199 also I love so much work and the way you are with those because the fact, 196 00:10:04.219 --> 00:10:04.499 you know, 197 00:10:04.559 --> 00:10:07.581 to be very supportive to this idea of sisterhood, 198 00:10:08.541 --> 00:10:11.103 I think it's something that can really help women. 199 00:10:11.243 --> 00:10:12.804 Because from what I see, 200 00:10:12.824 --> 00:10:15.886 the problem with men is more invisibilization. 201 00:10:16.326 --> 00:10:16.706 You know, 202 00:10:17.347 --> 00:10:17.667 I mean, 203 00:10:17.727 --> 00:10:18.748 also in my career, 204 00:10:18.808 --> 00:10:20.849 I don't have so many problems with men. 205 00:10:21.149 --> 00:10:22.510 The more I have is with women. 206 00:10:23.646 --> 00:10:25.828 When we speak about feminism, 207 00:10:26.228 --> 00:10:26.468 you know, 208 00:10:26.469 --> 00:10:27.849 because when you want to manage, 209 00:10:28.409 --> 00:10:30.070 you have to fight a lot. 210 00:10:30.550 --> 00:10:30.730 And 211 00:10:31.691 --> 00:10:32.451 I see what you do, 212 00:10:32.591 --> 00:10:35.133 it's what they do also in the energy community, 213 00:10:35.173 --> 00:10:35.433 you know, 214 00:10:35.893 --> 00:10:36.934 what they try to support. 215 00:10:37.814 --> 00:10:42.157 We are together and it's like this that we become stronger. 216 00:10:43.017 --> 00:10:43.217 Yeah, 217 00:10:43.397 --> 00:10:43.537 yeah, 218 00:10:43.577 --> 00:10:43.778 yeah. 219 00:10:43.898 --> 00:10:47.380 It totally relates to the previous episode of the podcast with Eleanor Rakoop, 220 00:10:47.440 --> 00:10:51.142 who created a community space for women to learn. 221 00:10:51.742 --> 00:11:08.894 from each other about housing renovation and to create this kind of network of really trusted parties because you need because yeah a house renovation is like you can't do anything more like more let's 222 00:11:08.914 --> 00:11:19.602 say aggressive on your home than than uh than a house renovation and and still there are so many moments where you're not being taken seriously many moments where you doubt yourself and 223 00:11:19.786 --> 00:11:29.993 And if there are platforms where you are able to be yourself and share your thoughts really openly without the fear of being judged, 224 00:11:30.013 --> 00:11:31.254 but on the other hand, 225 00:11:31.294 --> 00:11:34.616 being really supported in this building of sisterhood that you just mentioned, 226 00:11:34.996 --> 00:11:36.197 that makes a huge difference. 227 00:11:36.198 --> 00:11:36.678 And so, 228 00:11:36.679 --> 00:11:37.278 yeah, 229 00:11:37.298 --> 00:11:37.638 honestly, 230 00:11:37.958 --> 00:11:38.079 yeah, 231 00:11:38.159 --> 00:11:39.279 you know me very well. 232 00:11:39.359 --> 00:11:41.021 And I strongly believe in that. 233 00:11:41.121 --> 00:11:45.143 And that has always been something with me. 234 00:11:45.243 --> 00:11:46.724 But yeah, 235 00:11:46.725 --> 00:11:47.765 I think overall, 236 00:11:47.805 --> 00:11:48.766 we also need to. 237 00:11:49.314 --> 00:11:57.217 get a little bit to also acknowledge that maybe the gender part is only the tip of the iceberg, 238 00:11:57.317 --> 00:11:57.537 right? 239 00:11:57.917 --> 00:12:03.599 That we are well-educated white women and that makes quite a difference, 240 00:12:03.639 --> 00:12:03.819 right? 241 00:12:04.799 --> 00:12:07.100 So you and I are not together this time, 242 00:12:07.120 --> 00:12:08.500 but sometimes we've done it together, 243 00:12:08.600 --> 00:12:13.942 but you've been working on vulnerable households in particular through... 244 00:12:14.162 --> 00:12:15.743 a very interesting angle, 245 00:12:15.803 --> 00:12:17.945 which is the one of demand-side response, 246 00:12:17.965 --> 00:12:19.105 demand-side flexibility. 247 00:12:19.866 --> 00:12:22.948 And you recently published an article that pulls together 248 00:12:23.428 --> 00:12:28.652 66 empirical studies on demand response in vulnerable households. 249 00:12:29.392 --> 00:12:33.395 And you've highlighted a lot of really, 250 00:12:34.556 --> 00:12:34.876 let's say, 251 00:12:34.936 --> 00:12:36.137 disturbing evidence, 252 00:12:36.217 --> 00:12:36.457 right? 253 00:12:36.497 --> 00:12:39.720 You kind of challenged the status quo with these studies, 254 00:12:40.500 --> 00:12:42.942 because there are a few findings that keep coming up. 255 00:12:43.502 --> 00:12:45.523 Tell me more about the findings of this study. 256 00:12:46.664 --> 00:12:46.964 Okay, 257 00:12:47.064 --> 00:12:47.944 so first of all, 258 00:12:49.065 --> 00:12:51.686 I want to thank my co-authors. 259 00:12:52.146 --> 00:12:52.747 So again, 260 00:12:53.567 --> 00:12:54.888 I work with Mathieu and Yorgos. 261 00:12:55.468 --> 00:12:55.588 No, 262 00:12:55.608 --> 00:12:56.608 maybe Mathieu. 263 00:12:56.648 --> 00:12:58.489 Marc-Saint-Denis is super. 264 00:12:58.490 --> 00:13:00.510 He just got the PhD and it's very cool. 265 00:13:00.690 --> 00:13:02.611 Yorgos Koukoufik is at UNO for GRC. 266 00:13:03.372 --> 00:13:04.292 And again, 267 00:13:04.472 --> 00:13:04.732 Elena, 268 00:13:05.193 --> 00:13:05.673 because 269 00:13:06.493 --> 00:13:06.793 I mean, 270 00:13:07.354 --> 00:13:07.834 the best. 271 00:13:08.274 --> 00:13:09.655 And when you make a systematic, 272 00:13:09.695 --> 00:13:11.156 you have to review at the beginning. 273 00:13:11.877 --> 00:13:15.220 We initiate with like 4,000 preferences. 274 00:13:16.221 --> 00:13:17.802 So we finish with 60, 275 00:13:17.882 --> 00:13:19.083 but it's like a huge, 276 00:13:19.643 --> 00:13:21.465 because we have to read like more than 277 00:13:22.025 --> 00:13:26.689 2,000 for wisdom until we become crazy to classify. 278 00:13:26.809 --> 00:13:28.290 So yes, 279 00:13:28.430 --> 00:13:33.735 it has been a good and hard job because at the end on flexibility, 280 00:13:34.175 --> 00:13:36.637 you hear everything and nothing. 281 00:13:38.330 --> 00:13:41.891 So also the way to work with engineers, 282 00:13:41.911 --> 00:13:42.791 to ask for... 283 00:13:43.331 --> 00:13:44.632 It's a very complicated issue. 284 00:13:44.652 --> 00:13:49.093 We all speak about demand-side flexibility for vulnerable households, 285 00:13:49.094 --> 00:13:50.173 but it's a very, 286 00:13:50.233 --> 00:13:53.414 very complex issue that we have. 287 00:13:54.254 --> 00:13:56.595 So when we get across this article, 288 00:13:56.755 --> 00:13:58.276 we see that things are more complex. 289 00:13:58.336 --> 00:14:02.297 So your guys also summarized it very well in the post. 290 00:14:02.298 --> 00:14:04.957 So it all depends on the design. 291 00:14:05.818 --> 00:14:06.798 It's very important. 292 00:14:07.362 --> 00:14:07.862 You see, 293 00:14:08.123 --> 00:14:11.025 and when we prepare the interview, 294 00:14:11.766 --> 00:14:13.127 what was very interesting, 295 00:14:13.167 --> 00:14:15.268 the fact that vulnerable people, 296 00:14:15.469 --> 00:14:18.031 so we are also to be more complex, 297 00:14:18.151 --> 00:14:18.831 but vulnerable people, 298 00:14:18.832 --> 00:14:20.032 it could be elderly, 299 00:14:20.273 --> 00:14:20.813 low income, 300 00:14:20.814 --> 00:14:21.914 it can be accommodated. 301 00:14:22.194 --> 00:14:26.297 So it's important to acknowledge the diversity in vulnerability. 302 00:14:27.418 --> 00:14:29.700 So because it's the same and something, 303 00:14:29.840 --> 00:14:33.543 so I think about the willingness to participate. 304 00:14:34.104 --> 00:14:35.725 Because you have the impression, 305 00:14:35.805 --> 00:14:36.566 this idea that, 306 00:14:36.586 --> 00:14:36.826 you know, 307 00:14:37.742 --> 00:14:38.843 bring up people, 308 00:14:39.063 --> 00:14:40.023 how to get in, 309 00:14:40.744 --> 00:14:42.725 but they want to get in. 310 00:14:42.785 --> 00:14:45.126 And also because they are poor, 311 00:14:45.226 --> 00:14:47.688 because for you maybe 10 euros it's nothing, 312 00:14:48.348 --> 00:14:50.409 but for them it's a lot of money. 313 00:14:52.568 --> 00:14:53.569 Let's say in proportion, 314 00:14:55.089 --> 00:14:56.230 it's not the same. 315 00:14:56.870 --> 00:15:01.813 And also one fact that I find very interesting about the elderly people, 316 00:15:02.374 --> 00:15:03.574 they won't never change, 317 00:15:03.594 --> 00:15:05.155 it's all people. 318 00:15:05.156 --> 00:15:09.858 And the old people sometimes are more willing to change because they know it's possible, 319 00:15:10.018 --> 00:15:13.580 because they see that habits could evolve. 320 00:15:14.420 --> 00:15:17.682 So it was like about this idea of willingness, 321 00:15:18.343 --> 00:15:20.644 some very interesting findings. 322 00:15:21.420 --> 00:15:21.580 Yeah, 323 00:15:21.581 --> 00:15:22.500 but the problem, 324 00:15:22.540 --> 00:15:23.141 of course, 325 00:15:24.181 --> 00:15:26.021 is how to design them. 326 00:15:26.661 --> 00:15:28.422 And because when it's not well done, 327 00:15:28.423 --> 00:15:29.342 you can have like, 328 00:15:29.702 --> 00:15:32.503 as we show in the article, 329 00:15:32.843 --> 00:15:35.104 for people especially when they are sick, 330 00:15:36.424 --> 00:15:37.705 when they are already in low income, 331 00:15:37.706 --> 00:15:39.245 you can have increased until 20% 332 00:15:39.765 --> 00:15:40.805 the bids. 333 00:15:41.646 --> 00:15:42.886 When we design the tariff, 334 00:15:43.446 --> 00:15:45.147 we have to be very careful because, 335 00:15:45.148 --> 00:15:45.627 for example, 336 00:15:45.667 --> 00:15:46.947 especially for sick people, 337 00:15:47.267 --> 00:15:49.028 you can have like until 20% 338 00:15:49.608 --> 00:15:49.948 more. 339 00:15:50.852 --> 00:15:54.013 So it could be very important on the bills. 340 00:15:54.813 --> 00:15:57.634 So why design with, 341 00:15:57.654 --> 00:15:58.234 for example, 342 00:15:58.394 --> 00:15:59.414 no harm guarantee? 343 00:15:59.514 --> 00:16:02.655 Because it's something that you develop a lot about trust. 344 00:16:03.615 --> 00:16:03.756 Yeah. 345 00:16:03.856 --> 00:16:04.156 Also, 346 00:16:05.016 --> 00:16:07.016 go and in case you don't manage, 347 00:16:07.036 --> 00:16:07.416 you see, 348 00:16:07.937 --> 00:16:08.757 we are here to, 349 00:16:09.017 --> 00:16:10.137 you are not going to lose, 350 00:16:10.138 --> 00:16:10.377 you know, 351 00:16:10.417 --> 00:16:11.638 this no harm guarantee, 352 00:16:11.698 --> 00:16:13.638 this fact that it's very protective. 353 00:16:14.178 --> 00:16:15.359 And the fact also, 354 00:16:15.579 --> 00:16:17.679 it will be like empowering people. 355 00:16:18.419 --> 00:16:20.220 because the problem with flexibility... 356 00:16:20.864 --> 00:16:22.705 I see a lot on the Italian market. 357 00:16:22.745 --> 00:16:23.425 It's the fact that, 358 00:16:23.465 --> 00:16:24.085 for example, 359 00:16:24.665 --> 00:16:27.046 the business model for the moment are quite, 360 00:16:28.366 --> 00:16:30.807 let's say, 361 00:16:31.047 --> 00:16:31.807 they are working on. 362 00:16:32.247 --> 00:16:35.528 But you are not going to save so much money with flexibility. 363 00:16:35.908 --> 00:16:37.769 It demands flexibility. 364 00:16:37.789 --> 00:16:37.929 Yeah, 365 00:16:37.930 --> 00:16:38.049 yeah. 366 00:16:38.050 --> 00:16:38.489 It's a fact. 367 00:16:39.029 --> 00:16:40.229 So to me, 368 00:16:40.249 --> 00:16:43.170 I think it's also because it's the beginning of the market. 369 00:16:43.810 --> 00:16:43.930 Yeah. 370 00:16:44.010 --> 00:16:45.371 So we have also to let it, 371 00:16:46.311 --> 00:16:48.251 you can have things that are very interesting. 372 00:16:48.271 --> 00:16:48.552 We see, 373 00:16:48.553 --> 00:16:48.992 for example, 374 00:16:49.012 --> 00:16:49.492 in France, 375 00:16:49.552 --> 00:16:50.092 Voltaise. 376 00:16:51.312 --> 00:16:59.895 that you put on your heaters and you can reduce and it could be a very good solution because you can make some savings. 377 00:17:00.335 --> 00:17:01.595 So it's on work, 378 00:17:01.675 --> 00:17:07.076 but what is very interesting for flexibility is the idea of capacitation of people. 379 00:17:08.097 --> 00:17:10.718 And something you are working a lot, 380 00:17:11.078 --> 00:17:16.659 the right of consumer to understand and to be involved in the energy market. 381 00:17:17.599 --> 00:17:19.780 And it's maybe the point that we could reach with... 382 00:17:19.920 --> 00:17:21.701 flexibility. 383 00:17:22.061 --> 00:17:22.181 Yeah, 384 00:17:22.201 --> 00:17:22.321 yeah, 385 00:17:22.341 --> 00:17:22.521 yeah. 386 00:17:22.801 --> 00:17:22.921 No, 387 00:17:23.241 --> 00:17:24.102 you make a really, 388 00:17:24.302 --> 00:17:25.122 really interesting, 389 00:17:26.343 --> 00:17:26.623 let's say, 390 00:17:26.663 --> 00:17:31.305 distinction between the willingness to engage and the capacity to engage, 391 00:17:31.345 --> 00:17:31.605 right? 392 00:17:32.865 --> 00:17:33.365 You have, 393 00:17:33.886 --> 00:17:34.006 yeah, 394 00:17:34.106 --> 00:17:39.028 it's something that I've seen in policy that I've worked on also with policymakers for many, 395 00:17:39.088 --> 00:17:39.668 many years, 396 00:17:39.748 --> 00:17:42.789 also with my previous work with energy investment saying, 397 00:17:43.409 --> 00:17:43.670 you know, 398 00:17:43.830 --> 00:17:45.830 it's not because people don't want to, 399 00:17:46.071 --> 00:17:49.192 it's because they may not be able to because they have constraints. 400 00:17:49.252 --> 00:17:49.692 because you know 401 00:17:49.752 --> 00:17:51.133 If you have kids in your home, 402 00:17:51.733 --> 00:17:51.994 I mean, 403 00:17:52.194 --> 00:17:52.534 of course, 404 00:17:52.535 --> 00:17:56.176 you need to give them a shower at seven in the evening after school, 405 00:17:56.236 --> 00:17:56.737 after work, 406 00:17:56.797 --> 00:17:57.397 after everything. 407 00:17:57.437 --> 00:17:57.777 Of course, 408 00:17:57.778 --> 00:17:59.078 you need to cook for them after. 409 00:17:59.539 --> 00:18:01.020 It's like basic decency. 410 00:18:01.160 --> 00:18:01.700 It's like, 411 00:18:02.901 --> 00:18:04.622 why would you want to compress? 412 00:18:04.662 --> 00:18:09.786 And something that really strikes me in the article is that you mentioned the anxiety. 413 00:18:10.526 --> 00:18:15.910 Like it can create like the fact that there is some form of demon-side response. 414 00:18:15.911 --> 00:18:17.631 There could be some anxiety from, 415 00:18:18.011 --> 00:18:18.291 let's say, 416 00:18:18.351 --> 00:18:19.212 working moms. 417 00:18:20.256 --> 00:18:23.498 to cook before the price increases too much. 418 00:18:24.279 --> 00:18:24.599 I'm like, 419 00:18:24.659 --> 00:18:25.520 it's not empowering. 420 00:18:25.620 --> 00:18:26.541 It's like the contrary, 421 00:18:26.801 --> 00:18:28.682 like totally the contrary of empowerment, 422 00:18:28.742 --> 00:18:28.943 right? 423 00:18:29.263 --> 00:18:37.849 It gets you trapped into a model that doesn't deliver for you when energy is so essential for your actual needs. 424 00:18:37.929 --> 00:18:41.472 It's like essential for your living a decent life and so on. 425 00:18:41.473 --> 00:18:45.935 So I found it really interesting to see that there are so many nuances that, 426 00:18:46.316 --> 00:18:46.556 you know. 427 00:18:47.496 --> 00:18:48.496 that at the end of the day, 428 00:18:48.756 --> 00:18:49.897 vulnerable households, 429 00:18:49.937 --> 00:18:51.137 but households in general, 430 00:18:51.177 --> 00:18:53.298 you don't need to be vulnerable to be facing this, 431 00:18:53.378 --> 00:18:58.099 but maybe you have the willingness, 432 00:18:58.139 --> 00:18:59.499 but you don't have the capacity. 433 00:18:59.799 --> 00:19:01.900 So what have you analyzed? 434 00:19:02.640 --> 00:19:04.961 I was going to speak about policies. 435 00:19:05.041 --> 00:19:05.701 Thank you so much, 436 00:19:05.801 --> 00:19:10.302 because what we see a lot still at the European level, 437 00:19:10.342 --> 00:19:11.583 but also national policy, 438 00:19:12.023 --> 00:19:13.963 it's about a behaviorist approach. 439 00:19:13.964 --> 00:19:16.744 It's because we We are going to give incentives to people. 440 00:19:17.084 --> 00:19:18.764 that they are going to act like this. 441 00:19:19.425 --> 00:19:20.245 And I agree. 442 00:19:20.505 --> 00:19:21.165 Of course, 443 00:19:21.285 --> 00:19:22.245 it works somehow. 444 00:19:24.086 --> 00:19:26.166 If you give me some financial incentive, 445 00:19:26.206 --> 00:19:27.407 maybe I will think to that. 446 00:19:28.047 --> 00:19:29.427 But according to me, 447 00:19:29.707 --> 00:19:32.468 and studying flexibility with women and people, 448 00:19:32.528 --> 00:19:33.809 it's like the best, 449 00:19:34.289 --> 00:19:35.649 one of the best example. 450 00:19:36.009 --> 00:19:38.310 You cannot relate on the atheist approach. 451 00:19:38.311 --> 00:19:42.091 You have also to consider the practice and all these things that blog. 452 00:19:42.171 --> 00:19:43.291 So in terms of policy, 453 00:19:43.471 --> 00:19:46.392 it's hyper important because we have to... 454 00:19:46.592 --> 00:19:51.422 stop to just speak about incentive and consider the world, 455 00:19:51.462 --> 00:19:53.546 the real life of people. 456 00:19:53.806 --> 00:19:54.488 And I love a lot. 457 00:19:55.264 --> 00:19:56.445 I'm a purviewist economist. 458 00:19:56.505 --> 00:19:57.826 I have very good friends. 459 00:19:58.646 --> 00:19:59.647 And it's not against, 460 00:19:59.727 --> 00:20:01.268 but it's just complementary. 461 00:20:02.009 --> 00:20:03.950 We have to be more interdisciplinary. 462 00:20:05.031 --> 00:20:05.931 That's really interesting. 463 00:20:05.991 --> 00:20:06.532 And I mean, 464 00:20:06.752 --> 00:20:10.835 it's also related to another piece that you wrote about women in energy, 465 00:20:11.215 --> 00:20:14.938 because that relates to this kind of invisible burdens, 466 00:20:15.618 --> 00:20:17.179 really the work, 467 00:20:17.599 --> 00:20:21.622 the domestic work of adjusting energy use to market signals. 468 00:20:22.263 --> 00:20:23.183 And all of this thing, 469 00:20:23.524 --> 00:20:24.004 they end up, 470 00:20:25.144 --> 00:20:26.845 Very often to fall on women. 471 00:20:27.365 --> 00:20:36.887 So how do you make that visible in a policy conversation that still talks about the householders as if it were one single differentiated actor? 472 00:20:37.808 --> 00:20:38.428 What would you do? 473 00:20:38.708 --> 00:20:42.249 I think it's totally what you say. 474 00:20:42.269 --> 00:20:43.089 It's not about the house, 475 00:20:43.589 --> 00:20:44.510 it's about practice, 476 00:20:44.511 --> 00:20:45.570 it's about constraint, 477 00:20:45.950 --> 00:20:47.771 it's about capacitation. 478 00:20:48.511 --> 00:20:51.932 We have to stop with that because it's not true. 479 00:20:53.092 --> 00:20:57.235 When I used to work with the energy community for my PhD, 480 00:20:57.895 --> 00:20:59.676 I got this big data set, 481 00:20:59.736 --> 00:21:02.018 like 5,000 people answered to me, 482 00:21:02.138 --> 00:21:02.438 which is, 483 00:21:02.458 --> 00:21:02.838 by the way, 484 00:21:02.839 --> 00:21:03.439 a very good sign, 485 00:21:03.479 --> 00:21:03.999 because if 486 00:21:04.760 --> 00:21:06.521 I, in the first year of PhD, 487 00:21:07.321 --> 00:21:09.723 I can lead alone this kind of study, 488 00:21:10.343 --> 00:21:12.124 it's just because it was about women, 489 00:21:12.184 --> 00:21:13.265 because nobody cares. 490 00:21:13.965 --> 00:21:16.147 So when I used to do my job, 491 00:21:16.167 --> 00:21:16.787 it's so big, 492 00:21:16.827 --> 00:21:17.728 how do you do better? 493 00:21:18.432 --> 00:21:20.914 You reached out. 494 00:21:20.915 --> 00:21:21.054 Yeah, 495 00:21:21.074 --> 00:21:23.255 you reached out to people. 496 00:21:23.256 --> 00:21:24.716 I get the support of Dirk, 497 00:21:24.877 --> 00:21:25.717 of EcomPower, 498 00:21:26.698 --> 00:21:27.218 because 499 00:21:27.859 --> 00:21:28.399 I can also... 500 00:21:28.739 --> 00:21:28.879 But 501 00:21:29.420 --> 00:21:29.720 I mean, 502 00:21:30.140 --> 00:21:30.901 it's obvious. 503 00:21:31.621 --> 00:21:34.083 And what we have like big problems, 504 00:21:34.243 --> 00:21:35.184 it was to say, 505 00:21:35.764 --> 00:21:39.507 so who decided to participate in energy community? 506 00:21:39.667 --> 00:21:42.469 Because if I have been asking, 507 00:21:42.789 --> 00:21:44.110 the member is a male, 508 00:21:45.011 --> 00:21:46.952 because it's the male that has the invoice. 509 00:21:49.465 --> 00:21:53.849 And you know also about the proof of invisibilization of the woman. 510 00:21:54.249 --> 00:21:56.631 And you're also very good at the tickle of Turing. 511 00:21:57.251 --> 00:21:59.693 The clowns here also work a lot about that. 512 00:22:00.093 --> 00:22:04.456 The fact that the guys will take the decision to cut a solar panel. 513 00:22:05.157 --> 00:22:09.140 But who has to adapt for pursuing its woman? 514 00:22:09.580 --> 00:22:10.741 It's the guy that will tell you, 515 00:22:10.881 --> 00:22:11.021 oh, 516 00:22:11.061 --> 00:22:12.783 you have to run this question now. 517 00:22:13.463 --> 00:22:14.244 Because we have the... 518 00:22:14.968 --> 00:22:15.528 In my house, 519 00:22:15.568 --> 00:22:15.689 no, 520 00:22:15.789 --> 00:22:17.730 but I have been working on for years. 521 00:22:18.911 --> 00:22:20.112 But generally, 522 00:22:20.532 --> 00:22:22.093 regarding household care, 523 00:22:22.213 --> 00:22:22.733 it's women. 524 00:22:23.154 --> 00:22:25.795 So the men take the decision. 525 00:22:26.015 --> 00:22:28.297 The women have to adapt to technology. 526 00:22:28.657 --> 00:22:32.340 So it's like a fact of disempowerment and overburden. 527 00:22:32.440 --> 00:22:33.160 So in policy, 528 00:22:33.340 --> 00:22:33.781 indeed, 529 00:22:34.681 --> 00:22:37.363 we have to change the fact to see household. 530 00:22:38.124 --> 00:22:41.146 That also relates to something Elora said in a previous episode. 531 00:22:41.186 --> 00:22:44.488 She said that we tend to see women 532 00:22:44.888 --> 00:22:46.609 as like the followers, 533 00:22:46.689 --> 00:22:47.809 not the early adopter, 534 00:22:48.269 --> 00:22:53.511 but maybe women are more early adopters and they will ditch a technology if it doesn't deliver. 535 00:22:54.731 --> 00:23:00.253 She assessed it like from her 20 years in the job, 536 00:23:00.333 --> 00:23:01.993 but that would be really, 537 00:23:02.073 --> 00:23:07.095 really interesting to have some kind of empirical evidence that it's true. 538 00:23:07.215 --> 00:23:11.056 Like who are actually taking the decisions in the home that, 539 00:23:11.216 --> 00:23:11.476 you know, 540 00:23:11.516 --> 00:23:11.976 that exists. 541 00:23:12.076 --> 00:23:13.197 technology is adopted, 542 00:23:13.257 --> 00:23:16.138 that a dishwasher becomes smart, 543 00:23:17.259 --> 00:23:23.041 that you use solar panels and you adapt to the use of solar panels and this kind of things, 544 00:23:23.081 --> 00:23:28.524 because they seem to be quite a discrepancy. 545 00:23:29.304 --> 00:23:36.328 And so the policymakers and the technology providers are not making any difference. 546 00:23:36.972 --> 00:23:37.172 Okay, 547 00:23:37.272 --> 00:23:45.857 and that's really interesting because that relates to something that the European Commission recently released in this citizens energy package. 548 00:23:45.897 --> 00:23:46.318 The fact that, 549 00:23:46.358 --> 00:23:46.838 for instance, 550 00:23:46.839 --> 00:23:49.680 they talk about citizens and not consumers makes a lot of sense. 551 00:23:50.240 --> 00:23:54.843 But it also explicitly refers to citizens as farmers, 552 00:23:54.963 --> 00:23:56.023 rural inhabitants, 553 00:23:56.164 --> 00:23:57.384 small business owners, 554 00:23:57.584 --> 00:24:00.086 institutions such as kindergartens. 555 00:24:00.886 --> 00:24:02.047 And for me, 556 00:24:02.048 --> 00:24:03.348 it's one of the most striking. 557 00:24:03.904 --> 00:24:06.705 aspects of this new policy because it's like, 558 00:24:07.225 --> 00:24:07.345 oh, 559 00:24:07.625 --> 00:24:10.986 you acknowledge that there are very different ways of becoming like, 560 00:24:11.106 --> 00:24:14.587 of intertwining your life with your energy uses. 561 00:24:15.387 --> 00:24:16.287 And of course, 562 00:24:16.307 --> 00:24:19.368 a kindergarten is not flexible energy wise. 563 00:24:19.369 --> 00:24:21.649 You need to have electricity when the kids are there. 564 00:24:22.169 --> 00:24:24.630 You need to have heating when the kids are there. 565 00:24:25.210 --> 00:24:26.090 Rural inhabitants, 566 00:24:26.110 --> 00:24:27.951 they tend to be completely overlooked. 567 00:24:28.251 --> 00:24:28.771 Farmers, 568 00:24:28.851 --> 00:24:29.351 of course, 569 00:24:29.411 --> 00:24:31.592 they may be living on site. 570 00:24:32.052 --> 00:24:32.172 So, 571 00:24:32.292 --> 00:24:32.552 you know, 572 00:24:32.652 --> 00:24:32.812 it's 573 00:24:33.540 --> 00:24:35.341 Super interesting to see these dimensions. 574 00:24:35.561 --> 00:24:37.581 And let's say that since this 575 00:24:38.142 --> 00:24:39.762 Citizens Energy Package is live, 576 00:24:40.322 --> 00:24:41.463 it would be really, 577 00:24:42.403 --> 00:24:56.528 really interesting if there were kind of one thing you would share from your systematic review that you want officials working on consumer vulnerability to sit in and something they could really... 578 00:24:57.262 --> 00:25:03.187 take with them for the landing a better job on delivering for citizens and not only for consumers. 579 00:25:04.508 --> 00:25:05.269 Just before you, 580 00:25:05.489 --> 00:25:07.270 I was at a conference for EcomPour, 581 00:25:07.271 --> 00:25:09.592 and it was a project about how to engage citizens, 582 00:25:09.612 --> 00:25:10.253 how to work, 583 00:25:10.273 --> 00:25:11.394 so all this kind of thing. 584 00:25:12.014 --> 00:25:13.376 So the conclusion also, 585 00:25:14.056 --> 00:25:16.498 we have already talked about that. 586 00:25:16.638 --> 00:25:21.622 We have to stop to consider citizens as a rationalistic consumer, 587 00:25:21.623 --> 00:25:24.605 that we have a choice and what is, 588 00:25:24.925 --> 00:25:25.646 we have to think. 589 00:25:26.242 --> 00:25:27.783 Now it's in terms of practice, 590 00:25:28.164 --> 00:25:28.524 time, 591 00:25:28.624 --> 00:25:29.185 and labor. 592 00:25:29.405 --> 00:25:32.827 So how we are going to rely on people. 593 00:25:33.388 --> 00:25:35.049 And regarding flexibility, 594 00:25:35.289 --> 00:25:37.791 it's something also that they have to consider. 595 00:25:38.012 --> 00:25:40.474 It's not the point we did. 596 00:25:40.614 --> 00:25:40.994 It's okay. 597 00:25:41.194 --> 00:25:42.295 People are willing to participate, 598 00:25:42.315 --> 00:25:45.238 but give the opportunity to people to participate. 599 00:25:45.658 --> 00:25:46.398 And how we do. 600 00:25:46.639 --> 00:25:47.619 And this is why I love, 601 00:25:48.440 --> 00:25:48.680 again, 602 00:25:48.740 --> 00:25:52.784 very much the work of World Cup and even in our cup in France. 603 00:25:52.785 --> 00:25:53.804 They are very good at that. 604 00:25:54.465 --> 00:25:55.526 And that... 605 00:25:55.946 --> 00:25:57.047 they try to develop, 606 00:25:57.087 --> 00:25:57.667 for example, 607 00:25:57.707 --> 00:25:58.228 in an aircraft, 608 00:25:58.229 --> 00:26:01.010 you have this small device where people can see, 609 00:26:01.951 --> 00:26:02.671 not in kilowatts, 610 00:26:02.691 --> 00:26:03.572 but in euros, 611 00:26:03.812 --> 00:26:04.933 you know, 612 00:26:05.093 --> 00:26:06.074 what they consume. 613 00:26:06.414 --> 00:26:07.915 And you have all this work, 614 00:26:07.975 --> 00:26:08.235 you know, 615 00:26:09.156 --> 00:26:10.837 to relate with energy. 616 00:26:11.217 --> 00:26:15.020 You know that I work a lot about the work of Lucie Midenmise, 617 00:26:15.021 --> 00:26:16.261 this relational approach that 618 00:26:16.721 --> 00:26:18.803 I love Lucie Midenmise because she's very... 619 00:26:18.804 --> 00:26:20.184 She was a guest on the pod. 620 00:26:21.665 --> 00:26:22.165 I will... 621 00:26:22.866 --> 00:26:22.986 I... 622 00:26:23.406 --> 00:26:26.187 It's the same way we think energy. 623 00:26:26.327 --> 00:26:28.427 And I think she's right. 624 00:26:29.088 --> 00:26:29.688 We have to, 625 00:26:30.108 --> 00:26:33.189 and she wrote also about policy recommendation in UK, 626 00:26:33.989 --> 00:26:37.810 if I don't mistake. 627 00:26:37.870 --> 00:26:38.590 So this way, 628 00:26:38.910 --> 00:26:43.472 she conceptualized energy to make that something that is meaningful to people, 629 00:26:43.832 --> 00:26:45.072 that provoke emotion. 630 00:26:45.472 --> 00:26:48.773 And we have to go here because it doesn't work. 631 00:26:48.893 --> 00:26:50.514 Even in energy community development, 632 00:26:50.534 --> 00:26:51.334 And I went, 633 00:26:51.374 --> 00:26:51.574 oh, 634 00:26:51.594 --> 00:26:51.874 is it? 635 00:26:52.314 --> 00:26:52.875 It's still, 636 00:26:52.895 --> 00:26:53.415 you know, 637 00:26:54.095 --> 00:26:55.396 what they say in Italy, 638 00:26:55.977 --> 00:26:57.718 millions of energy community. 639 00:26:57.918 --> 00:27:01.341 I am still waiting and people are still struggling for a lot of reasons. 640 00:27:01.681 --> 00:27:05.944 But we have to make energy meaningful for energy community, 641 00:27:05.984 --> 00:27:06.424 but also, 642 00:27:06.985 --> 00:27:11.008 as I told you for the work you did about consumer rights. 643 00:27:11.009 --> 00:27:14.610 Energy is something that has a core. 644 00:27:14.611 --> 00:27:14.991 Yeah, 645 00:27:14.992 --> 00:27:15.771 yeah, 646 00:27:15.871 --> 00:27:16.212 exactly, 647 00:27:16.712 --> 00:27:19.354 Energy is right and shapes our lives. 648 00:27:19.534 --> 00:27:39.146 a lot and you know about the citizen synergy package there is also this trust dimension that is central and i'm really like so happy to see it so so so fundamental like the the commission is acknowledging that we have a trust gap and more works need to be done and 649 00:27:39.666 --> 00:27:45.710 you know in a way i find it like okay so let's now it's about starting the discussion to 650 00:27:46.234 --> 00:27:47.714 actually move the lines, 651 00:27:47.794 --> 00:27:48.775 because until now, 652 00:27:48.855 --> 00:27:53.536 we've been very much repeating some kind of same schemes. 653 00:27:53.776 --> 00:27:54.836 And as you said, 654 00:27:54.956 --> 00:27:56.297 at the beginning of our discussion, 655 00:27:56.377 --> 00:27:58.838 the energy communities have tended to, 656 00:27:59.658 --> 00:27:59.998 let's say, 657 00:28:00.318 --> 00:28:04.859 echo the society we were already living in with the, 658 00:28:05.439 --> 00:28:05.779 let's say, 659 00:28:06.080 --> 00:28:08.400 well-educated white men, 660 00:28:08.600 --> 00:28:09.641 middle-aged white men, 661 00:28:10.561 --> 00:28:11.981 shaping what they are. 662 00:28:12.381 --> 00:28:14.042 When we actually need them, 663 00:28:14.122 --> 00:28:14.862 we need our energy. 664 00:28:15.062 --> 00:28:17.824 energy to reflect better our societies as well. 665 00:28:17.984 --> 00:28:27.631 So that's interesting to see that finally those points are landing and maybe we will be able to do something out of it. 666 00:28:27.691 --> 00:28:43.782 Let's see at national level then because okay the idea of city the problem is that it's always going to be translated and we live in Italy for example we know it's not going to be so easy so simple. 667 00:28:44.310 --> 00:28:44.910 Because, 668 00:28:45.711 --> 00:28:46.251 for example, 669 00:28:46.271 --> 00:28:50.474 we have this gap between social and technical. 670 00:28:51.154 --> 00:28:52.875 You manage to put together. 671 00:28:53.656 --> 00:28:53.776 Yeah, 672 00:28:53.816 --> 00:28:53.996 yeah. 673 00:28:54.396 --> 00:28:54.516 No, 674 00:28:54.576 --> 00:28:56.317 but what's interesting in Italy, 675 00:28:56.777 --> 00:28:56.977 too, 676 00:28:57.198 --> 00:28:58.819 is that some actors, 677 00:28:59.399 --> 00:29:01.680 especially the most disruptive ones, 678 00:29:01.820 --> 00:29:10.285 are finally acknowledging that we need more social sciences and so scientists like you to move the line. 679 00:29:10.286 --> 00:29:11.626 And so that's like... 680 00:29:12.107 --> 00:29:13.749 These are the steps in the right direction. 681 00:29:13.809 --> 00:29:13.929 But, 682 00:29:14.550 --> 00:29:14.810 you know, 683 00:29:15.772 --> 00:29:16.312 in general, 684 00:29:16.593 --> 00:29:25.585 I'm still very confused that some of these principles around the implication of populations in the design, 685 00:29:26.526 --> 00:29:26.687 which... 686 00:29:27.608 --> 00:29:36.013 Our core principles of sustainability are still being discussed at the EU level as if they were a novelty. 687 00:29:38.694 --> 00:29:42.136 When they have been everywhere, 688 00:29:42.776 --> 00:29:44.597 in sustainable finance and development, 689 00:29:45.938 --> 00:29:47.599 in grants and loans, 690 00:29:47.799 --> 00:29:47.939 etc., 691 00:29:48.940 --> 00:29:50.801 in many different countries, 692 00:29:51.141 --> 00:29:52.702 they have been there for years. 693 00:29:52.902 --> 00:29:56.544 And now we are finally starting to see them arrive in Europe. 694 00:29:56.545 --> 00:29:56.664 and 695 00:29:57.628 --> 00:29:58.248 That's sad. 696 00:29:58.509 --> 00:29:59.849 We still have a long way to go. 697 00:30:02.631 --> 00:30:03.191 But we have you, 698 00:30:03.231 --> 00:30:03.571 Marine, 699 00:30:03.631 --> 00:30:07.413 to make things go right. 700 00:30:07.414 --> 00:30:08.454 We'll see about that. 701 00:30:08.574 --> 00:30:09.775 But thank you so much, 702 00:30:10.075 --> 00:30:10.415 Aurore. 703 00:30:10.435 --> 00:30:14.937 And I'm sure this conversation will lead to many others. 704 00:30:15.158 --> 00:30:15.738 And yeah, 705 00:30:15.858 --> 00:30:17.699 please read to our listeners. 706 00:30:17.759 --> 00:30:20.941 Please read the article because it's actually very well written. 707 00:30:21.221 --> 00:30:22.201 I could understand it. 708 00:30:23.462 --> 00:30:23.842 Thank you. 709 00:30:24.263 --> 00:30:26.804 We'll make our thing simple in case. 710 00:30:29.745 --> 00:30:31.585 Thank you so much, 711 00:30:31.745 --> 00:30:31.865 May. 712 00:30:31.885 --> 00:30:33.626 Energetic explores the people, 713 00:30:33.726 --> 00:30:34.266 policies, 714 00:30:34.286 --> 00:30:38.367 and institutions shaping Europe's and the world's energy transition. 715 00:30:39.027 --> 00:30:40.048 I am Mayen Cornelis. 716 00:30:40.308 --> 00:30:42.168 If you found this conversation valuable, 717 00:30:42.228 --> 00:30:44.629 you can share it with colleagues working on housing, 718 00:30:44.709 --> 00:30:45.189 governance, 719 00:30:45.209 --> 00:30:46.209 and consumer protection. 720 00:30:46.789 --> 00:30:49.810 You will find references and further reading in the show notes. 721 00:30:50.190 --> 00:30:50.930 Until next time. 722 00:30:56.732 --> 00:30:57.132 Where go? 723 00:30:57.713 --> 00:30:58.954 Stay back. 724 00:30:58.974 --> 00:31:00.275 Give me your love. 725 00:31:00.295 --> 00:31:04.419 Give me your love. 726 00:31:04.479 --> 00:31:06.521 I need you close. 727 00:31:06.821 --> 00:31:07.522 I need you here. 728 00:31:07.662 --> 00:31:08.483 I need you close. 729 00:31:08.503 --> 00:31:09.904 I need you here. 730 00:31:09.905 --> 00:31:14.348 And I got it.