WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.180 --> 00:00:02.302 Many people share the same problematics, 2 00:00:02.982 --> 00:00:04.224 many share the different ones, 3 00:00:04.787 --> 00:00:05.845 so there is a potential of, 4 00:00:06.466 --> 00:00:06.845 first of all, 5 00:00:06.865 --> 00:00:08.009 understanding better the problem, 6 00:00:08.412 --> 00:00:14.357 because all individual experiences will strengthen the outcome of the district and neighbourhood projects. 7 00:00:18.404 --> 00:00:19.935 The energy transition is happening, 8 00:00:20.201 --> 00:00:21.138 but is it fair? 9 00:00:21.701 --> 00:00:23.560 Is it working for people like you and me, 10 00:00:24.169 --> 00:00:26.185 or just for big market players? 11 00:00:27.341 --> 00:00:28.310 Welcome to Energetic. 12 00:00:28.564 --> 00:00:29.444 I am Mayenne Cornelis, 13 00:00:29.544 --> 00:00:31.565 an expert in energy and climate policies, 14 00:00:31.925 --> 00:00:34.845 and I bring you the voices shaping our energy future. 15 00:00:35.606 --> 00:00:36.044 Activists, 16 00:00:36.067 --> 00:00:36.669 scientists, 17 00:00:36.763 --> 00:00:37.505 policymakers, 18 00:00:37.888 --> 00:00:39.903 the real people making real change, 19 00:00:40.489 --> 00:00:41.864 often against the odds. 20 00:00:42.825 --> 00:00:43.130 Here, 21 00:00:43.325 --> 00:00:45.544 we do not settle for surface level takes. 22 00:00:46.013 --> 00:00:47.450 We dig into the challenges, 23 00:00:47.591 --> 00:00:51.856 the solutions and the lessons that do not always make the headlines. 24 00:00:52.544 --> 00:00:53.294 And in doing so, 25 00:00:53.794 --> 00:00:55.794 we rediscover something vital. 26 00:00:56.232 --> 00:00:58.455 Our ability to trust in institutions, 27 00:00:58.594 --> 00:00:59.576 to believe in change, 28 00:00:59.897 --> 00:01:02.518 and to reclaim our power to act. 29 00:01:02.979 --> 00:01:04.803 Because if we want just resilience, 30 00:01:05.100 --> 00:01:06.444 if we want just transition, 31 00:01:06.842 --> 00:01:09.725 we need to understand what it takes to make it happen. 32 00:01:10.287 --> 00:01:11.123 And more importantly, 33 00:01:11.569 --> 00:01:13.404 we need to believe that we can. 34 00:01:14.123 --> 00:01:14.998 Let's get into it. 35 00:01:16.873 --> 00:01:20.029 Europe is running out of time to fix cold, 36 00:01:20.217 --> 00:01:22.014 costly and inefficient homes. 37 00:01:22.811 --> 00:01:24.264 Energy bills bite. 38 00:01:24.548 --> 00:01:25.710 Rents keep rising, 39 00:01:25.929 --> 00:01:28.874 cities struggle to deliver decent affordable places to live. 40 00:01:29.374 --> 00:01:32.077 The EU has now the tools and the attention, 41 00:01:32.479 --> 00:01:34.839 in particular the affordable housing dialogue, 42 00:01:35.378 --> 00:01:39.620 shaping the first urban affordable housing plan in 2025, 43 00:01:39.800 --> 00:01:43.573 the affordable housing initiative with its lighthouse districts, 44 00:01:43.745 --> 00:01:47.589 and the new urban house vision for places that are sustainable, 45 00:01:47.745 --> 00:01:49.432 beautiful and inclusive. 46 00:01:50.448 --> 00:01:53.557 This is why we are back with the Build Better Lives. 47 00:01:53.748 --> 00:01:56.871 The campaign gathers more than 95 groups from housing, 48 00:01:56.970 --> 00:01:57.790 social justice, 49 00:01:57.873 --> 00:01:58.732 climate and youth. 50 00:01:59.115 --> 00:02:02.298 It pushes for a renovation that cuts bills, 51 00:02:02.439 --> 00:02:04.697 improves comfort and strengthens communities. 52 00:02:05.283 --> 00:02:07.783 The new Energy Performance of Building Directive, 53 00:02:07.978 --> 00:02:08.619 EPBD, 54 00:02:09.322 --> 00:02:12.150 recognizes district and neighborhood approaches. 55 00:02:12.603 --> 00:02:17.884 And member states now have to turn that into plans and projects that people can feel at home. 56 00:02:18.478 --> 00:02:18.900 So today, 57 00:02:19.447 --> 00:02:20.556 my guest is Herman. 58 00:02:21.668 --> 00:02:27.668 the policy and campaign officer at CanEurope and co-coordinator of Build Better Lives. 59 00:02:28.188 --> 00:02:31.993 He knows Brussels level policy and on the ground delivery. 60 00:02:32.508 --> 00:02:37.719 So we will look at what works when cities scale renovation by district, 61 00:02:38.172 --> 00:02:41.438 protect tenants and design with people from day one. 62 00:02:41.829 --> 00:02:45.672 We will also talk about what the urban affordable housing plan must deliver. 63 00:02:46.219 --> 00:02:49.313 So 2026 does not arrive with promise. 64 00:02:49.684 --> 00:02:50.424 only on paper. 65 00:02:52.404 --> 00:02:52.705 Herman, 66 00:02:52.925 --> 00:02:53.787 welcome to the show. 67 00:02:54.646 --> 00:02:54.763 Hi, 68 00:02:54.826 --> 00:02:55.107 Marine. 69 00:02:55.126 --> 00:02:55.806 Thanks for having me. 70 00:02:56.166 --> 00:03:02.970 So you've been working both at EU level advocacy and also at the local level with some renovation projects. 71 00:03:02.971 --> 00:03:07.611 So what drew you personally to these challenges of building renovation? 72 00:03:08.423 --> 00:03:08.548 Yeah, 73 00:03:08.892 --> 00:03:10.345 so as a starter, 74 00:03:10.346 --> 00:03:15.830 it was quite a surprise because I was initially working more on environmental issues. 75 00:03:16.840 --> 00:03:18.342 And through environmental issues, 76 00:03:19.003 --> 00:03:23.368 it trickled down to one of the main topics of environmental issues, 77 00:03:23.407 --> 00:03:24.567 which is buildings. 78 00:03:25.286 --> 00:03:25.887 And through times, 79 00:03:25.911 --> 00:03:33.981 I also saw how this is part of a broader problem that is basically the part we spend most of our times, 80 00:03:33.997 --> 00:03:34.825 which is our homes. 81 00:03:35.856 --> 00:03:38.778 And also through opportunities that I found, 82 00:03:39.450 --> 00:03:39.950 as you said, 83 00:03:40.122 --> 00:03:42.262 I worked in local projects here in Brussels, 84 00:03:43.247 --> 00:03:44.653 where the idea of the projects was... 85 00:03:44.872 --> 00:04:03.644 gathering collective efforts around renovation and through this effort that was quite participative there was a lot of door-to-door knocking you could quite quickly see that this is more than just adding a layer of insulation yeah this um this talks about your 86 00:04:03.707 --> 00:04:11.363 home this talks about your comfort place and it also talks about your relationship with your neighbors with your community and 87 00:04:11.864 --> 00:04:15.046 That's also why it's interesting to talk about district and neighbourhood, 88 00:04:15.827 --> 00:04:20.749 because it is a collective problem in how it happens. 89 00:04:21.835 --> 00:04:23.952 Many people share the same problematics, 90 00:04:24.656 --> 00:04:25.898 many share the different ones, 91 00:04:26.437 --> 00:04:29.695 so there is a potential of first of all understanding better the problem, 92 00:04:30.116 --> 00:04:36.085 because all individual experiences will strengthen the outcome of the district and neighbourhood projects, 93 00:04:36.991 --> 00:04:41.148 and there's also a way of strengthening the existing organisations. 94 00:04:42.140 --> 00:04:42.501 That's great. 95 00:04:42.541 --> 00:04:45.546 So how come you started working exactly on this, 96 00:04:45.646 --> 00:04:50.378 knowing that you were working on climate first and environment policies? 97 00:04:50.433 --> 00:04:51.136 Because, 98 00:04:51.137 --> 00:04:51.316 I mean, 99 00:04:51.574 --> 00:04:52.058 of course, 100 00:04:52.300 --> 00:04:55.941 you probably like you were raised in Paris, 101 00:04:55.988 --> 00:04:57.605 if I'm not mistaken. 102 00:04:57.707 --> 00:04:59.089 So now you live in Brussels. 103 00:04:59.105 --> 00:05:01.980 So you've seen a lot of differences from these two places as well. 104 00:05:03.175 --> 00:05:03.355 Yes, 105 00:05:03.435 --> 00:05:04.536 and in between there was also, 106 00:05:04.636 --> 00:05:06.259 actually I was brought up in Turkey. 107 00:05:06.318 --> 00:05:07.361 I was born in France, 108 00:05:07.380 --> 00:05:08.259 but grew up in Turkey. 109 00:05:09.341 --> 00:05:09.462 Yeah, 110 00:05:09.501 --> 00:05:16.509 I think initially the interest over environmental issues obviously came from a bit the places I lived. 111 00:05:17.447 --> 00:05:18.009 Initially, 112 00:05:18.087 --> 00:05:22.501 maybe it was not buildings that was seen as the most pressing issue for me growing up in Istanbul, 113 00:05:22.533 --> 00:05:27.486 where really you see through transport and infrastructure as a place, 114 00:05:28.236 --> 00:05:30.283 urban areas take. 115 00:05:30.783 --> 00:05:31.908 but you also understand that 116 00:05:32.335 --> 00:05:36.658 the built environment grows and grows every more and gets into conflict with the environment. 117 00:05:37.701 --> 00:05:48.791 And also as part of my studies I dived more into environmental issues and ended up working on energy efficiency through the links were quite made quite organically. 118 00:05:49.509 --> 00:05:58.134 Yeah I mean I totally imagine how growing up in Istanbul really like shapes your view on the importance of neighborhood like the 119 00:05:58.675 --> 00:06:04.960 Like how it's a city that grows like so fast and there are so many buildings. 120 00:06:04.999 --> 00:06:06.640 Like the first time I was in Istanbul was maybe 121 00:06:07.124 --> 00:06:08.007 20 years ago. 122 00:06:08.343 --> 00:06:10.046 And last time was maybe 10 years ago, 123 00:06:10.085 --> 00:06:10.890 but it has changed. 124 00:06:11.367 --> 00:06:12.765 It had changed already so much. 125 00:06:12.812 --> 00:06:16.109 And I guess that's what I would see today would be so different. 126 00:06:16.640 --> 00:06:16.749 So, 127 00:06:16.812 --> 00:06:17.046 I mean, 128 00:06:17.078 --> 00:06:22.265 it must make a certain impression to see not only like the hubs of, 129 00:06:22.296 --> 00:06:22.562 let's say, 130 00:06:22.578 --> 00:06:23.234 public transport, 131 00:06:23.265 --> 00:06:24.624 but also the private transport. 132 00:06:25.167 --> 00:06:26.609 The maritime transport as well, 133 00:06:26.689 --> 00:06:27.769 which is something many 134 00:06:28.871 --> 00:06:31.213 European cities are kind of forgetting, 135 00:06:31.214 --> 00:06:32.095 the maritime transport, 136 00:06:32.135 --> 00:06:33.072 how important that can be. 137 00:06:34.033 --> 00:06:37.642 And then all these new buildings that need resources, 138 00:06:37.697 --> 00:06:42.744 that need to become really part of a certain neighborhood. 139 00:06:42.947 --> 00:06:43.447 And still, 140 00:06:43.885 --> 00:06:46.150 whenever you dig something in Istanbul, 141 00:06:46.213 --> 00:06:50.275 you find other traces of previous civilizations, 142 00:06:50.306 --> 00:06:50.510 right? 143 00:06:50.525 --> 00:06:52.056 So that must be 144 00:06:52.799 --> 00:06:53.761 really quite something. 145 00:06:53.860 --> 00:07:01.245 I'm pretty sure that after this conversation you will have this kind of aha moment where you realize that the two are so interconnected. 146 00:07:01.948 --> 00:07:03.628 Now I think about it for instance, 147 00:07:03.706 --> 00:07:15.440 I think of like you know the big stones in Istanbul that are there to kind of prevent the land from sliding and some of them are actually columns from Greek and 148 00:07:15.784 --> 00:07:21.784 Roman temples right so that shows really how the environment and the builds and the buildings. 149 00:07:22.547 --> 00:07:39.930 do uh mingle yeah uh also with the mix of heritage and identity and also with this also more contemporary issues of security building seeing as a security there are many conflicting contexts in istanbul for example you have this pending 150 00:07:39.977 --> 00:07:49.133 issue of earthquakes uh it's constantly in people's mind and um so yeah you also grow up with this idea that my building should be resilient. 151 00:07:49.399 --> 00:07:50.415 My body should be safe. 152 00:07:51.274 --> 00:07:51.477 Also, 153 00:07:51.555 --> 00:07:51.961 feeding. 154 00:07:52.247 --> 00:08:01.196 You are in contact of always some tragic news from homemade heating because people don't have access to clean heating. 155 00:08:01.798 --> 00:08:09.524 And also visually you see the conflicts of a city that is ever growing without much social safeguards. 156 00:08:10.759 --> 00:08:11.149 Basically, 157 00:08:11.150 --> 00:08:14.462 you see slum neighborhoods being bought in, 158 00:08:15.290 --> 00:08:21.556 evicted and fancy new neighborhoods coming under their place in quite shocking. 159 00:08:21.911 --> 00:08:38.860 speedy times yeah so i think yeah actually wiped out yeah yeah diving back you see a lot of issues that now we talk about when we talk about the affordable housing plan that were ever present that you experience in a way maybe you realize them afterwards because yeah i was i 160 00:08:38.861 --> 00:08:50.235 was a kid when i was there but it's they were there and they're pretty much issues that we need to get our experience from and let them enrich us for us not to make the same mistakes 161 00:08:50.803 --> 00:08:50.923 Yeah, 162 00:08:51.123 --> 00:08:51.244 yeah, 163 00:08:51.344 --> 00:08:51.624 yeah. 164 00:08:51.944 --> 00:08:52.405 That's really, 165 00:08:52.525 --> 00:08:53.045 really interesting. 166 00:08:53.084 --> 00:08:53.907 But I mean, 167 00:08:54.026 --> 00:08:55.729 in this kind of new report, 168 00:08:55.788 --> 00:08:57.268 new work that you've been producing, 169 00:08:57.350 --> 00:09:00.995 you've been calling for moving beyond the building by building approach, 170 00:09:01.151 --> 00:09:03.159 like more district approach, 171 00:09:03.237 --> 00:09:04.674 district level renovation. 172 00:09:05.057 --> 00:09:05.174 So, 173 00:09:05.995 --> 00:09:06.237 I mean, 174 00:09:06.338 --> 00:09:12.159 you mentioned this absolutely terrible case of neighborhood, 175 00:09:12.518 --> 00:09:13.549 slum neighborhoods, 176 00:09:13.612 --> 00:09:19.487 but still neighborhoods and communities being completely wiped out to build new fancy properties. 177 00:09:19.799 --> 00:09:20.034 But. 178 00:09:20.399 --> 00:09:26.687 Pretty certain there are other examples where such a drastic solution has not been implemented, 179 00:09:26.784 --> 00:09:27.007 right? 180 00:09:27.066 --> 00:09:30.191 And where the new food becomes resilient, 181 00:09:30.230 --> 00:09:31.112 you use this term, 182 00:09:31.667 --> 00:09:34.409 and it's not only one building that survives, 183 00:09:34.495 --> 00:09:36.589 but really the rest of the buildings as well. 184 00:09:37.370 --> 00:09:39.636 The idea was to dive into more of this. 185 00:09:39.933 --> 00:09:42.573 We've been hearing about this neighborhood approaches for a while now. 186 00:09:43.167 --> 00:09:45.402 We've been seeing also that the renovation wave, 187 00:09:45.730 --> 00:09:46.323 as we call it, 188 00:09:46.386 --> 00:09:48.448 is not picking up the pace we want. 189 00:09:48.902 --> 00:09:49.870 and and 190 00:09:50.532 --> 00:09:51.647 We've been also hearing that 191 00:09:52.282 --> 00:09:55.024 There are many benefits of going to a broader scale, 192 00:09:55.786 --> 00:09:56.825 economies of scale, 193 00:09:56.887 --> 00:10:00.454 also maybe mobilizing more individuals. 194 00:10:01.290 --> 00:10:03.555 And so we decided to have a look at it, 195 00:10:03.993 --> 00:10:04.454 have a look at, 196 00:10:05.016 --> 00:10:05.134 OK, 197 00:10:05.852 --> 00:10:06.735 what are we talking about? 198 00:10:06.954 --> 00:10:08.094 What's already happening? 199 00:10:08.735 --> 00:10:10.641 What can we learn from these experiences? 200 00:10:11.376 --> 00:10:11.766 And yeah, 201 00:10:12.048 --> 00:10:14.048 what principles can we have from these experiences? 202 00:10:14.079 --> 00:10:15.469 Because obviously, 203 00:10:15.657 --> 00:10:20.423 I think it's maybe the most context dependent approach to go in a neighborhood and to look. 204 00:10:20.678 --> 00:10:27.566 what you have and to try ways to include and to carry on these projects. 205 00:10:27.706 --> 00:10:37.574 So maybe there was multiple questions and in the report we try also to identify if maybe key problematics some of these projects answer or don't answer to. 206 00:10:38.402 --> 00:10:40.605 Some of them being more social issues, 207 00:10:40.652 --> 00:10:42.933 some of them being more environmental issues. 208 00:10:43.699 --> 00:10:44.855 Obviously they're all interlinked, 209 00:10:44.949 --> 00:10:49.386 but in some cases it's about integrating renewable energy. 210 00:10:49.734 --> 00:11:10.272 to energy efficiency improvements in some cases about affordability so really trying to have measures that makes this change and this transition affordable another one that is quite linked but is also in itself different is inclusion inclusion and participation how much of these processes include as decision makers the the 211 00:11:10.288 --> 00:11:17.475 inhabitants and the citizens how much of this design actually allow for a transition that avoids this kind of 212 00:11:18.042 --> 00:11:32.984 erasing a whole neighborhood and putting a new one that is maybe energy-wise very performative but socially it's not what we want and also another issue that we wanted to tackle is circularity because we so basically 213 00:11:33.023 --> 00:11:37.726 our buildings that are built today or that were built 10 years ago they're going to be standing for 214 00:11:38.273 --> 00:11:44.069 50 to 100 years and for the new ones we need to think about what do we do with the waste? 215 00:11:44.194 --> 00:11:45.913 Because currently... 216 00:11:46.570 --> 00:11:47.131 A good 40% 217 00:11:47.611 --> 00:11:50.955 of all waste generated in Europe is buildings, 218 00:11:51.095 --> 00:11:52.217 built environment waste. 219 00:11:52.256 --> 00:11:54.701 50%? 220 00:11:54.740 --> 00:11:55.560 40%. 221 00:11:55.561 --> 00:11:55.818 Wow. 222 00:11:56.099 --> 00:11:56.803 38, 223 00:11:56.881 --> 00:11:57.357 40%. 224 00:11:57.420 --> 00:11:57.701 Wow, 225 00:11:57.842 --> 00:11:58.685 that's still enormous. 226 00:11:59.240 --> 00:11:59.943 That's enormous. 227 00:11:59.982 --> 00:12:03.787 And it really depends on which countries in terms of how the economy is shaped. 228 00:12:03.803 --> 00:12:04.521 I think in France, 229 00:12:04.553 --> 00:12:06.131 it's even more important. 230 00:12:06.912 --> 00:12:07.178 So yeah, 231 00:12:07.256 --> 00:12:08.084 it's a big block. 232 00:12:08.412 --> 00:12:11.615 And if we do new builds, 233 00:12:12.099 --> 00:12:13.834 which in some cases might be justified, 234 00:12:13.881 --> 00:12:15.646 I think there are ways to see. 235 00:12:16.174 --> 00:12:17.295 Where is it justified? 236 00:12:17.455 --> 00:12:19.297 And we need to ask the right questions in terms of, 237 00:12:19.978 --> 00:12:20.139 well, 238 00:12:20.318 --> 00:12:24.744 what is the whole life carbon effect of this compared to using vacant spaces? 239 00:12:24.783 --> 00:12:30.471 So we really wanted to have cases where you also have this question of circularity and also, 240 00:12:30.572 --> 00:12:31.572 if not circularity, 241 00:12:32.338 --> 00:12:37.588 sufficiency through exploiting vacant spaces and using this as an opportunity as well. 242 00:12:37.650 --> 00:12:38.744 As an example in Germany, 243 00:12:38.822 --> 00:12:43.728 where this was a way also to regenerate the neighborhood that was a bit left apart. 244 00:12:44.718 --> 00:12:44.978 Yeah, 245 00:12:45.079 --> 00:12:46.180 that's really interesting. 246 00:12:46.460 --> 00:12:48.343 And a full disclaimer, 247 00:12:48.401 --> 00:12:53.530 I actually work for the European Commission on the New European Bauhaus Initiative. 248 00:12:53.569 --> 00:12:54.186 I'm one of the 249 00:12:54.851 --> 00:12:56.186 12 members of the 250 00:12:56.851 --> 00:12:58.772 New European Bauhaus Facility 251 00:12:59.296 --> 00:12:59.874 Expert Group. 252 00:12:59.936 --> 00:13:07.601 So it's basically a system that will help kind of scale up the New European Bauhaus Initiatives. 253 00:13:08.444 --> 00:13:10.382 So we are looking into financing tools, 254 00:13:10.429 --> 00:13:10.569 etc. 255 00:13:11.507 --> 00:13:14.241 And this question of circularity really came up. 256 00:13:14.242 --> 00:13:29.582 up recently in our discussions because we also noticed that there are so many problems with like the kind of value that is given to circularity as if in a way it were kind of 257 00:13:30.144 --> 00:13:41.660 I mean of course building costs a lot of money but dismantling also costs a lot of money but they are never like put at the same page and whenever you want to build something Thanks. 258 00:13:42.510 --> 00:13:57.135 You may not receive the same amount of money if the product you source or if the material you source is something circular and comes from a previous project or if it's something completely new. 259 00:13:58.010 --> 00:14:00.010 So there's a big question out there. 260 00:14:00.072 --> 00:14:01.338 How do we kind of level, 261 00:14:02.338 --> 00:14:06.182 make sure that we integrate more of this refurbished project, 262 00:14:06.901 --> 00:14:09.541 refurbished sourced materials? 263 00:14:10.057 --> 00:14:11.151 I'm not a construction expert, 264 00:14:11.229 --> 00:14:11.354 but... 265 00:14:11.902 --> 00:14:36.083 like it's what i understand like it feels like a very important conversation to have and again i think we go back to this the shores of of of istanbul and like using the stones and the columns but yes yeah man you want to do it some things yeah exactly i wanted to i think that on that specific topic there is kind of a bad dependency on when we thought about these rules 266 00:14:36.146 --> 00:14:41.005 to encourage construction and the moment we are in right now and 267 00:14:41.366 --> 00:14:54.236 the actual questions that we're aware of i think that the question of circularity or new construction versus renovating existing space and also acknowledging the existing spaces 268 00:14:55.627 --> 00:14:56.568 to a certain extent, 269 00:14:56.809 --> 00:14:58.529 mostly enough for what we need. 270 00:14:59.211 --> 00:15:00.189 We're not a question when we, 271 00:15:00.354 --> 00:15:00.592 you know, 272 00:15:00.631 --> 00:15:05.338 gave incentives on VATs for demolition compared to renovation. 273 00:15:06.119 --> 00:15:08.080 Just maybe would like to mention here the 274 00:15:09.424 --> 00:15:10.939 European Citizen Initiative that 275 00:15:11.541 --> 00:15:13.549 House Europe is carrying today. 276 00:15:14.564 --> 00:15:23.502 They're trying to gather up a million signatures and also with different thresholds in countries to basically address this issue and to make renovation the norm and to 277 00:15:24.711 --> 00:15:25.692 And to make sure that, 278 00:15:25.772 --> 00:15:25.931 yeah, 279 00:15:26.152 --> 00:15:30.692 we're not completely all encouraging without any limits new construction. 280 00:15:31.594 --> 00:15:34.910 And that actually this becomes kind of a culture shift. 281 00:15:35.113 --> 00:15:35.590 And that's, 282 00:15:35.637 --> 00:15:35.895 you know, 283 00:15:35.996 --> 00:15:37.035 in different projects, 284 00:15:37.074 --> 00:15:43.176 this become the go-to mental scheme of going and going for renovation and thinking about, 285 00:15:43.520 --> 00:15:43.629 OK, 286 00:15:43.879 --> 00:15:45.098 how do you renovate heritage? 287 00:15:45.160 --> 00:15:47.754 How do you renovate heritage using the same rocks? 288 00:15:47.817 --> 00:15:48.113 Actually, 289 00:15:48.160 --> 00:15:50.723 maybe you need to adapt some structures, 290 00:15:50.754 --> 00:15:53.754 but you use the same rocks of the buildings that were. 291 00:15:54.231 --> 00:16:02.057 part of a very old building in the french example of uh you had this example of it was quite old barracks if i'm not missing 292 00:16:02.557 --> 00:16:18.198 16th century 17 that was left-leaf taking that at some point was used by the military but was left vacant because they didn't have the use of it and there is kind of an we were talking about the identity and heritage of buildings there is kind of a fascinating 293 00:16:18.229 --> 00:16:23.479 approach of this you know saying that we use some of the same bricks that's 294 00:16:23.727 --> 00:16:43.705 were there and these buildings maybe their shape changed a bit because you know their use changed the the period changed but we still you know use those rocks yeah yeah yeah and they are so so much of this material that has good uh let's say uh properties that could be because 295 00:16:43.830 --> 00:16:51.096 of course we're not talking about using reusing albastos and this kind of thing but really it's it's more like Like the stones, 296 00:16:51.158 --> 00:16:52.236 if you use stones, 297 00:16:52.268 --> 00:16:52.580 I mean, 298 00:16:52.643 --> 00:16:53.236 that's just like... 299 00:16:53.691 --> 00:16:57.011 ways that can make it interesting and what 300 00:16:57.392 --> 00:17:14.339 I find kind of interesting in what you are telling me and I must say it's completely new for me is that I see like one of my guilty pleasure is to watch people renovate their home like on Instagram I follow a lot of people who renovate their home etc and 301 00:17:14.917 --> 00:17:20.870 I would never be able to do that but I find it really cool and so many of these people are, 302 00:17:21.230 --> 00:17:22.605 I see them like trying to... 303 00:17:23.619 --> 00:17:25.281 make ends meet by, 304 00:17:25.481 --> 00:17:25.840 of course, 305 00:17:25.981 --> 00:17:27.364 learning new techniques and so on, 306 00:17:27.442 --> 00:17:30.727 but also by learning techniques from, 307 00:17:31.883 --> 00:17:32.188 let's say, 308 00:17:32.407 --> 00:17:36.415 self-renovation techniques by some experts and so on, 309 00:17:36.454 --> 00:17:42.618 but also trying to reuse as much as possible because they want to save on cost because they are doing things themselves. 310 00:17:42.680 --> 00:17:43.961 So they find it cheaper. 311 00:17:44.633 --> 00:17:45.977 But at the same time now, 312 00:17:46.649 --> 00:17:53.008 you've been telling me that it's like absolutely not the norm when we are talking about big ensembles right it's like 313 00:17:53.547 --> 00:17:53.968 In a way, 314 00:17:54.108 --> 00:17:56.369 it's fine for your little DIY project, 315 00:17:56.451 --> 00:17:59.291 but it's not when we are talking big infrastructures. 316 00:17:59.974 --> 00:18:01.517 Whereas at the same time, 317 00:18:01.931 --> 00:18:04.134 since you have this kind of neighborhood approach, 318 00:18:04.197 --> 00:18:05.463 like beyond the building, 319 00:18:05.517 --> 00:18:06.142 district level, 320 00:18:06.197 --> 00:18:06.338 etc. 321 00:18:07.463 --> 00:18:20.759 That would be also kind of so nice if people could gather together to build something with techniques they learned from their peers and from... 322 00:18:21.811 --> 00:18:25.255 like wisdom they heard from previous generations. 323 00:18:25.757 --> 00:18:27.937 One of the examples that we saw, 324 00:18:28.776 --> 00:18:29.937 so the example in Sweden, 325 00:18:30.116 --> 00:18:41.265 one of the interesting part of it was that you had a special procurement where it included conditions for the construction company to include some of the residents, 326 00:18:41.405 --> 00:18:51.077 which was it was a precarious neighborhood and there was a lot of unemployment and use this project to kind of train the 327 00:18:51.779 --> 00:19:11.625 citizens include them in the construction and relation of the of the housing there so there are some ideas to take there i'm not saying the project has done perfectly and so there was also the contracts was were a year contract maybe could have been longer but at the result of it there's 328 00:19:11.813 --> 00:19:20.485 most of these uh employed citizens train themselves and enter new careers and i think there is something there of thinking about 329 00:19:21.075 --> 00:19:23.337 when we do this district and neighborhood approaches, 330 00:19:23.978 --> 00:19:27.040 where is the community benefit sharing agreements that we have? 331 00:19:27.642 --> 00:19:34.568 So once we said that we have a dedicated funding scheme for these kind of projects, 332 00:19:34.591 --> 00:19:35.669 which is also to be defined, 333 00:19:36.912 --> 00:19:38.638 which is the funding scheme of these projects, 334 00:19:38.872 --> 00:19:45.341 which after will come a bit of who are the leading drivers of these projects and how we should reflect on that. 335 00:19:45.982 --> 00:19:50.122 But having specific agreements with participative approaches where we 336 00:19:50.655 --> 00:19:51.477 look at what we have, 337 00:19:52.119 --> 00:19:54.205 include the existing actors, 338 00:19:54.285 --> 00:19:58.133 but also proactively try to find the ones that are not usually around the table. 339 00:20:00.500 --> 00:20:15.471 well define collectively the benefit agreements for example say that we identify there is this issues or these opportunities and we collectively decide to say okay let's let's make most of the people that are used 340 00:20:15.472 --> 00:20:24.831 to renovate their homes by themselves and use this knowledge because I believe that there are many of those that we that actually like 341 00:20:25.500 --> 00:20:43.519 lose themselves between the cracks because they're maybe never communicated and doesn't mean they don't exist and i think that's something this could be something that is included in these approaches right and coming back to the drivers i think that one important thing is that i 342 00:20:43.520 --> 00:20:50.972 mean not up to me only to decide who they are but we see that many of these projects are led or are at least evolving. 343 00:20:51.596 --> 00:20:55.460 local municipal actors or administration. 344 00:20:56.222 --> 00:21:02.328 And that's maybe one big conclusion for these projects is that if you want to do district and neighborhood approaches, 345 00:21:02.789 --> 00:21:03.546 you need capacity. 346 00:21:03.648 --> 00:21:05.046 You need technical capacity. 347 00:21:05.148 --> 00:21:06.367 You need social capacity. 348 00:21:07.007 --> 00:21:11.414 You need also all the administration to help up with the permitting, 349 00:21:11.539 --> 00:21:15.101 with gathering up all the different information that you will have, 350 00:21:15.132 --> 00:21:17.585 because so far we've been talking about renovation, 351 00:21:17.617 --> 00:21:20.804 but our idea about district and renovation approaches 352 00:21:21.428 --> 00:21:22.930 district and neighbourhood innovation approaches, 353 00:21:22.950 --> 00:21:27.493 but also seeing these projects where other issues are also included. 354 00:21:27.876 --> 00:21:28.337 For example, 355 00:21:28.338 --> 00:21:31.478 there are some projects where within the planning of these projects, 356 00:21:32.181 --> 00:21:34.064 there is a broader thinking on mobility, 357 00:21:34.142 --> 00:21:35.642 there is a broader thinking on okay, 358 00:21:35.665 --> 00:21:40.001 what do you do with green spaces and the relationship with built environment and green spaces. 359 00:21:41.142 --> 00:21:42.001 Maybe we can include, 360 00:21:42.626 --> 00:21:44.329 if we do with district and neighbourhood innovation approaches, 361 00:21:44.611 --> 00:21:50.517 we can include considerations on adaptation and all the issues we will have in terms of 362 00:21:51.044 --> 00:22:06.901 passive cooling and the rules of what was it one one ten hundred you should see no three thirty three hundred you should see three trees from your home have access to i don't remember the whole rule but kind 363 00:22:06.902 --> 00:22:17.870 of applying this yeah yeah that's that's really interesting like this idea of having like champion that is already recognized by the community if it's the mayor or like the, 364 00:22:18.855 --> 00:22:19.308 let's say the... 365 00:22:19.700 --> 00:22:38.031 the mayoral team because it shouldn't at the same time I think we need to be kind of aware or that it has to be a project that the community embraces and when if there is a political change it still keeps on being embraced by the by the 366 00:22:38.124 --> 00:22:47.031 the next municipal team as well like it's not like only one one the project of the mayor or something like that I mean talking about France 367 00:22:47.609 --> 00:22:48.124 I remember 368 00:22:48.648 --> 00:22:50.268 terrible projects where, 369 00:22:50.449 --> 00:22:50.748 you know, 370 00:22:50.849 --> 00:22:54.451 you had this kind of mayors who wanted to leave a mark and, 371 00:22:54.490 --> 00:22:54.771 you know, 372 00:22:55.170 --> 00:22:56.732 they built like in the 373 00:22:57.271 --> 00:22:58.029 80s or 90s, 374 00:22:58.068 --> 00:22:59.373 maybe even more recently, 375 00:22:59.388 --> 00:22:59.732 I don't know, 376 00:23:00.154 --> 00:23:03.029 but they wanted to leave their footprint in their community. 377 00:23:03.193 --> 00:23:05.115 So they approved a completely, 378 00:23:05.959 --> 00:23:06.396 let's say, 379 00:23:06.709 --> 00:23:10.005 extravagant project because they wanted to be remembered for something. 380 00:23:10.255 --> 00:23:11.146 And I guess that, 381 00:23:11.599 --> 00:23:11.849 you know, 382 00:23:11.927 --> 00:23:13.974 that's not the kind of project we're talking about. 383 00:23:13.990 --> 00:23:18.115 We are talking about things that make a difference for the community and the people who are. 384 00:23:18.416 --> 00:23:20.118 were actually there. 385 00:23:20.218 --> 00:23:22.661 So there is this kind of long-term vision, 386 00:23:22.821 --> 00:23:23.661 long-term project, 387 00:23:23.720 --> 00:23:23.841 etc. 388 00:23:24.704 --> 00:23:26.224 And maybe for that I have another, 389 00:23:26.446 --> 00:23:26.704 let's say, 390 00:23:26.743 --> 00:23:28.267 counter example from France as well, 391 00:23:28.306 --> 00:23:31.048 like the mayor of Bordeaux, 392 00:23:31.728 --> 00:23:32.767 the city where I come from, 393 00:23:32.813 --> 00:23:45.001 but they have been having this project to equip all the municipal buildings with solar panels to make sure that they are completely provided with 394 00:23:45.880 --> 00:23:50.226 with the renewable energy and it's their big plans for the years to come. 395 00:23:50.284 --> 00:23:55.351 So I think it's also quite a long-term sustainable vision for the city as well. 396 00:23:56.132 --> 00:23:56.452 And also, 397 00:23:56.530 --> 00:23:56.671 yeah, 398 00:23:56.749 --> 00:24:03.554 maybe one point of seeing as a district we haven't talked about is that in some cases, 399 00:24:04.179 --> 00:24:08.007 what exists in terms of heating systems are district-based. 400 00:24:08.960 --> 00:24:13.991 And we also think that it's a good approach to include in the different planning tools that we'll have. 401 00:24:14.144 --> 00:24:16.627 that municipality will have to use. 402 00:24:17.247 --> 00:24:26.815 So we have kind of a good collection of different planning tools that comes from the EU framework that municipalities and also regions and also states will have to come up with. 403 00:24:27.377 --> 00:24:31.135 And we believe that these should be done in a way that there is consistency, 404 00:24:31.213 --> 00:24:32.120 there is coherence. 405 00:24:32.745 --> 00:24:32.870 We, 406 00:24:33.620 --> 00:24:37.370 while with member states do their national building renovation plans, 407 00:24:37.885 --> 00:24:43.557 it's going to be the big plans where they really try to come up with the different policy and measures and the targets. 408 00:24:44.220 --> 00:24:51.426 to go towards a neutral built environment climate neutral environment we believe that within this 409 00:24:52.020 --> 00:25:08.956 other planning tools such as local heating and cooling plans that comes from the energy efficiency directive also social climate plans that tries to anticipate the it is to uh mechanism for vulnerable households all of these should be thinking in a way that it 410 00:25:08.957 --> 00:25:16.690 makes sense right yeah that's interesting that you mentioned the social climate plan and the social climate fund in a way because uh 411 00:25:17.160 --> 00:25:21.405 You've been highlighting the importance of affordability and social safeguards. 412 00:25:21.444 --> 00:25:21.644 I mean, 413 00:25:21.726 --> 00:25:25.687 it's quite a constant within Energetik to talk about these two topics. 414 00:25:26.007 --> 00:25:28.671 So what kind of best practice are you seeing where, 415 00:25:29.030 --> 00:25:29.312 you know, 416 00:25:29.710 --> 00:25:33.398 the renovation does not lead to displacement or renovation? 417 00:25:33.476 --> 00:25:33.679 Like, 418 00:25:34.241 --> 00:25:35.523 is it like rent caps? 419 00:25:35.991 --> 00:25:41.007 You mentioned already inclusive participation and some kind of employment opportunities as well. 420 00:25:41.069 --> 00:25:42.523 But it's a mixture. 421 00:25:42.866 --> 00:25:43.851 What has been working? 422 00:25:44.710 --> 00:25:46.085 yes so maybe that's 423 00:25:46.608 --> 00:26:05.559 the contentious issue of renovation projects right what happens after you have the renovation so i think it's in the examples we have we've seen quite some innovative approaches in terms of what happens when to include in terms of financing the different components of the 424 00:26:05.591 --> 00:26:12.934 projects for example the example in spain you have finance and there is tears you have the option to have 50 50 percent depending on your income 425 00:26:13.412 --> 00:26:31.531 you have the option to have a low interest rate and you have the option to basically not pay the renovation it's paid by the by the municipality and the other funds that they gathered because also noting that many of these projects they're very creative into combining different all sorts of financing and 426 00:26:31.546 --> 00:26:42.687 then it's linked to your registry and this financing will will stay on the registry so if you want to sell the pla your your apartment or your home at the sell point you 427 00:26:42.816 --> 00:26:59.397 pay the renovation costs that were there and so yeah it's quite ways to include different groups you have other ways as well and to come back to your questions uh we've seen examples uh part of the examples we analyzed some of them we've seen that they 428 00:26:59.459 --> 00:27:08.084 haven't worked so well they didn't have rent caps and so there was some substantial price increase i'm talking about the example in sweden 429 00:27:08.506 --> 00:27:11.819 So that's something we highlighted in the example in terms of... 430 00:27:12.644 --> 00:27:15.345 There has been quite some positive social changes, 431 00:27:16.165 --> 00:27:26.849 but with always maybe the consideration around the timeline in terms of what are the more structural tendencies that might emerge when you have such a project, 432 00:27:27.044 --> 00:27:30.732 which ends up being quite an increase in the rent. 433 00:27:31.232 --> 00:27:32.372 but we also have other cases, 434 00:27:32.373 --> 00:27:38.622 the case in Germany where you have a rent control mechanism and where there was also some 435 00:27:39.308 --> 00:27:42.672 Some of the money was used to freeze the cost of heating, 436 00:27:43.473 --> 00:27:49.918 where we really saw that there is a will to include this rent neutrality principle, 437 00:27:49.957 --> 00:27:51.918 which is if there are renovations, 438 00:27:52.598 --> 00:27:53.941 there should be a rent neutrality, 439 00:27:54.324 --> 00:28:06.512 meaning that maybe the costs of rent are combined with utility bills and that the money you would earn from the efficiency does not use to increase the rent. 440 00:28:06.527 --> 00:28:06.715 Yeah. 441 00:28:07.516 --> 00:28:10.620 But obviously other examples exist that maybe were not there, 442 00:28:11.179 --> 00:28:13.440 which are using social housing, 443 00:28:13.561 --> 00:28:16.425 which is part of the case in the French case, 444 00:28:17.565 --> 00:28:21.706 where you have systems to adapt the rent according to the revenue, 445 00:28:22.308 --> 00:28:22.573 which is, 446 00:28:22.690 --> 00:28:34.300 I think it should be key when we talk about rent eviction is actually adapt the housing to the person that is within the housing and accept the idea that when someone is a tenant and 447 00:28:35.072 --> 00:28:44.303 they have some sort of property of usage that gives them a certain rights to be deciding what do they do with their house. 448 00:28:44.779 --> 00:28:46.865 Because we shouldn't be against mobility. 449 00:28:46.982 --> 00:28:49.029 Mobility has always been a part of tenants' 450 00:28:49.248 --> 00:28:50.365 needs changing life. 451 00:28:51.193 --> 00:28:54.615 But it becomes problematic where this is at the expense of the tenant. 452 00:28:55.271 --> 00:28:59.115 And so I think that rent prices that are according to revenues, 453 00:28:59.834 --> 00:29:00.818 but also to a broader, 454 00:29:00.850 --> 00:29:02.646 when you open up to the broader market, 455 00:29:03.248 --> 00:29:23.793 brand caps and rent control mechanisms have seen we've seen their benefits but i would like to say that i don't think they're enough as the only mechanism if you want really want true true inclusion because first of all it means that you need to have a rent control mechanism everywhere because you obviously could have these competing dynamics and 456 00:29:23.824 --> 00:29:32.231 that also to really have a project that is embraced by everyone brand control would only bring so much so inclusion 457 00:29:32.472 --> 00:29:36.315 and that you need to complement it with all the governance issues that we mentioned. 458 00:29:36.876 --> 00:29:37.278 Yeah, 459 00:29:37.556 --> 00:29:39.981 that's interesting what you're suggesting as well, 460 00:29:40.060 --> 00:29:47.388 because one of the biggest problems we have now in Europe is we may not have enough quality housing. 461 00:29:47.770 --> 00:29:53.231 And let's say that many people are also struggling with the size of their dwelling, 462 00:29:53.372 --> 00:29:59.560 knowing that at the same time you have maybe older populations who live with 463 00:30:00.140 --> 00:30:16.797 too large building and too large housing compared to their actual need but it was like impossible to to say to anyone now it's time to move and to leave your your your big house to to a family i mean that's that's really not something 464 00:30:17.000 --> 00:30:28.344 anyone aspires for but if if we take a very let's say uh pragmatic and cold eye on on this situation that's that's also a reality exactly and i think I think that... 465 00:30:28.860 --> 00:30:36.972 Before we arrive to the point where it really becomes the only solution to say we need to intervene and find more drastic approaches. 466 00:30:38.066 --> 00:30:48.456 I think that we need to find ways to give more options and flexibility for these maybe mismatches between the needs and the demand we have. 467 00:30:49.253 --> 00:30:51.159 By trying to find ways of, 468 00:30:51.862 --> 00:30:52.409 first of all, 469 00:30:53.769 --> 00:30:55.847 optimizing how we use our built environment. 470 00:30:56.534 --> 00:30:58.222 because if we don't have a... 471 00:30:59.108 --> 00:31:15.961 built environment that functions in a way that gives answer the needs by this i mean the vacant housing that we have the under occupation that we have if we don't have the legal system and the the facilitation to allow these kind of changes to adapt itself it's 472 00:31:16.008 --> 00:31:27.742 very difficult to take someone that you are gonna change apartments but we don't really know where and it's not really quality housing because as you said there's a problem of we don't have enough quality housing we also need to 473 00:31:28.396 --> 00:31:30.336 Apart from access to housing, 474 00:31:31.397 --> 00:31:32.197 its affordability, 475 00:31:32.236 --> 00:31:34.639 we also have an issue of quality housing. 476 00:31:35.537 --> 00:31:40.061 And how do we combine these in a way that we don't move people for... 477 00:31:40.795 --> 00:31:46.693 There should be maybe a principle of you can only go to more quality housing and you cannot be downgraded. 478 00:31:47.381 --> 00:31:47.725 And also, 479 00:31:48.443 --> 00:31:51.865 apart from the primary principle, 480 00:31:51.897 --> 00:31:54.115 that should be that everybody has a roof that is decent. 481 00:31:54.904 --> 00:31:55.264 Yeah, 482 00:31:55.405 --> 00:31:55.885 absolutely. 483 00:31:56.005 --> 00:32:02.312 And maybe that if you are moved because another family needs your apartment, 484 00:32:02.691 --> 00:32:03.851 you stay in the same neighborhood, 485 00:32:03.929 --> 00:32:04.156 right? 486 00:32:04.210 --> 00:32:14.601 Because that can be completely like really breaking the social fabric if you treat people and housing like assets, 487 00:32:14.929 --> 00:32:15.210 right? 488 00:32:15.726 --> 00:32:16.382 It's not that. 489 00:32:16.991 --> 00:32:22.226 And that's exactly what this kind of district level renovation like. 490 00:32:22.940 --> 00:32:27.363 Embracing the people reality really stands for it. 491 00:32:27.906 --> 00:32:34.711 But now let's go to the European level and this European affordable housing plan. 492 00:32:35.656 --> 00:32:36.336 In many ways, 493 00:32:36.375 --> 00:32:38.351 it could be some kind of a game changer. 494 00:32:39.117 --> 00:32:42.304 So how would success look like from your perspective? 495 00:32:43.695 --> 00:32:48.039 I think that what we use at EU level is quite a mysterious plan because 496 00:32:48.742 --> 00:32:50.945 EU normally doesn't talk about housing. 497 00:32:51.195 --> 00:32:52.476 It's not more progressive. 498 00:32:53.148 --> 00:32:54.328 But by the pass, 499 00:32:54.729 --> 00:32:55.248 indirectly, 500 00:32:55.249 --> 00:32:56.709 it has been talking about housing. 501 00:32:57.049 --> 00:33:00.049 It has been talking about the efficiency of buildings, 502 00:33:00.369 --> 00:33:01.369 the heating they put, 503 00:33:03.549 --> 00:33:05.768 all the products they use. 504 00:33:06.315 --> 00:33:06.432 So, 505 00:33:07.111 --> 00:33:07.510 indirectly, 506 00:33:07.572 --> 00:33:08.650 housing has been touched. 507 00:33:10.135 --> 00:33:10.635 But yeah, 508 00:33:10.979 --> 00:33:16.072 I think there are many things that can still be done and that we would like to be done. 509 00:33:16.775 --> 00:33:17.088 Meaning, 510 00:33:17.369 --> 00:33:17.854 first of all, 511 00:33:17.900 --> 00:33:18.900 I think that the plan should... 512 00:33:19.520 --> 00:33:25.446 really try to find ways that enables that the current framework goes for ambition and just justice. 513 00:33:26.126 --> 00:33:29.126 That when we implement the current framework, 514 00:33:29.508 --> 00:33:30.469 we think about housing. 515 00:33:30.915 --> 00:33:31.290 Basically, 516 00:33:31.291 --> 00:33:31.790 for example, 517 00:33:31.954 --> 00:33:48.766 what this could be could be guidance on how the National Building Renovation Plans should be a way to include consideration on energy poverty and housing exclusion in a way that they should be designed so that they're complementary with the housing crisis and not contradictory. 518 00:33:49.052 --> 00:34:05.746 which if they're ill-designed it might happen another issue is really trying to find the framework that is offered by the commission and also some financial assistance to really as i said optimize our 519 00:34:05.793 --> 00:34:18.559 current building stock finding ways first of all to have systematic data because we have data on vacant housing but it's not so systematized everywhere we don't have 520 00:34:19.128 --> 00:34:19.348 I mean, 521 00:34:19.389 --> 00:34:23.211 we could have this data by proxy using energy performance, 522 00:34:23.871 --> 00:34:26.536 but we should have a framework that allows that, 523 00:34:27.098 --> 00:34:27.575 first of all, 524 00:34:27.637 --> 00:34:31.176 the public vacant housing is leading by example. 525 00:34:31.801 --> 00:34:33.504 This could be a framework that really... 526 00:34:34.165 --> 00:34:43.617 gives guidance on how member states use capacity to basically don't have any vacant public housing when we have a housing crisis, 527 00:34:44.398 --> 00:34:48.859 where we also understand better and have data on what is a vacant space, 528 00:34:48.961 --> 00:34:50.078 what are the different reasons, 529 00:34:51.000 --> 00:34:53.969 what is under occupation and what is conversion potential, 530 00:34:54.344 --> 00:35:00.953 so that we all see the places where it's justified to have vacant spaces or under occupied spaces. 531 00:35:02.109 --> 00:35:02.930 But in the meantime, 532 00:35:02.931 --> 00:35:06.492 we should not wait for data to arrive to act because there is a housing crisis. 533 00:35:07.113 --> 00:35:09.515 And we should use the financing that we're going to have, 534 00:35:09.757 --> 00:35:10.578 maybe MFF, 535 00:35:11.101 --> 00:35:13.984 maybe the European Pan-Investment Platform, 536 00:35:14.640 --> 00:35:23.250 to channel some of those funds into renovation and repurposing of these vacant and under-occupied spaces. 537 00:35:23.937 --> 00:35:25.031 And also, 538 00:35:25.390 --> 00:35:26.171 in some cases, 539 00:35:26.875 --> 00:35:29.109 energy-efficient new construction. 540 00:35:29.825 --> 00:35:34.248 I think there should also be a guidance on how to prioritize what we mean by new construction, 541 00:35:34.830 --> 00:35:37.232 by repurposing and renovation. 542 00:35:37.252 --> 00:35:38.432 I think there is a big topic there. 543 00:35:38.455 --> 00:35:41.494 There is also part of the 544 00:35:42.877 --> 00:35:45.814 Build Better Lives campaign in terms of the environmental organization, 545 00:35:45.924 --> 00:35:47.017 housing organizations. 546 00:35:47.642 --> 00:35:56.205 These are topics where there is potential conflict and where there is to be a maybe more broader consideration of how do we prioritize, 547 00:35:56.752 --> 00:35:59.127 because one should not be at the spite of the other. 548 00:36:00.041 --> 00:36:08.151 And another topic is how do we use the EU level to make this transition fair for our workers? 549 00:36:08.291 --> 00:36:12.737 Because one also important factor for these projects to happen are the workers. 550 00:36:12.971 --> 00:36:15.299 And so far, 551 00:36:15.354 --> 00:36:18.440 that's something we've been hearing that we lack skilled forces. 552 00:36:19.737 --> 00:36:19.955 Also, 553 00:36:20.205 --> 00:36:21.502 not only we lack skilled forces, 554 00:36:21.565 --> 00:36:26.080 but that the labor forces that are supposed to drive this, 555 00:36:26.690 --> 00:36:28.174 they need to adapt to new 556 00:36:28.997 --> 00:36:44.679 techniques which is positive could be seen as something positive for the EU but also they needed we need to adapt our rules for these conditions working conditions to be fair to be safe and to 557 00:36:44.703 --> 00:36:58.187 observe what's not working in terms of sub-granting maybe in some cases there are many sub-grantings that are for creating situation where there's injustice maybe the plan is a place to tackle those. 558 00:36:58.621 --> 00:37:01.124 to ensure that if we want an affordable housing plan, 559 00:37:01.804 --> 00:37:03.265 we should have all of these three, 560 00:37:03.285 --> 00:37:04.246 so affordable housing, 561 00:37:04.788 --> 00:37:08.132 with the right conditions for labourers, 562 00:37:08.734 --> 00:37:09.070 workers. 563 00:37:09.953 --> 00:37:10.093 Yeah, 564 00:37:10.171 --> 00:37:12.132 that sounds so fundamental. 565 00:37:12.171 --> 00:37:13.632 And at the same time, 566 00:37:13.679 --> 00:37:13.859 yeah, 567 00:37:13.937 --> 00:37:16.882 the workers tend to be very overlooked, 568 00:37:16.913 --> 00:37:17.507 their needs, 569 00:37:17.835 --> 00:37:19.179 like whatever the season, 570 00:37:19.288 --> 00:37:21.304 the fact that they need training on new techniques. 571 00:37:21.601 --> 00:37:21.820 I mean, 572 00:37:21.821 --> 00:37:24.320 we talked about self-renovation earlier, 573 00:37:24.429 --> 00:37:25.445 but yeah, 574 00:37:25.851 --> 00:37:26.492 it's also about, 575 00:37:26.992 --> 00:37:27.210 I mean, 576 00:37:27.537 --> 00:37:31.899 I think the workers have been so overlooked in the past probably 577 00:37:32.540 --> 00:37:33.356 50 years. 578 00:37:35.419 --> 00:37:39.403 Earlier they might have been more like prestige in being a construction worker, 579 00:37:40.497 --> 00:37:42.856 but let's be honest, 580 00:37:43.380 --> 00:37:46.685 they have been suffering from a kind of a bad image, 581 00:37:46.747 --> 00:37:47.435 bad reputation. 582 00:37:47.528 --> 00:37:53.950 So how do we make younger generations want to engage in also in this kind of careers? 583 00:37:53.981 --> 00:37:55.747 I think it's one of the big topics though. 584 00:37:56.445 --> 00:38:02.431 It's really part of building better lives as a conversation starter, 585 00:38:02.553 --> 00:38:02.771 right? 586 00:38:02.772 --> 00:38:05.592 So we are reaching the end of our visit. 587 00:38:05.678 --> 00:38:07.693 So can you tell me just a little more, 588 00:38:07.896 --> 00:38:08.420 how will 589 00:38:08.834 --> 00:38:12.506 Build Better Lives evolve in the years to come? 590 00:38:12.537 --> 00:38:14.615 What kind of topic are you going to address? 591 00:38:14.959 --> 00:38:15.599 And yeah, 592 00:38:15.865 --> 00:38:19.021 if our listeners want to engage a little bit more, 593 00:38:19.474 --> 00:38:20.021 what can they do? 594 00:38:21.053 --> 00:38:21.709 So as I said, 595 00:38:21.787 --> 00:38:23.584 we're a European campaign, 596 00:38:23.709 --> 00:38:25.053 So there's going to be maybe... 597 00:38:25.741 --> 00:38:26.442 if not more, 598 00:38:26.502 --> 00:38:27.603 because also things happen, 599 00:38:27.623 --> 00:38:30.368 that things change compared to what you plan, 600 00:38:30.465 --> 00:38:33.008 but at least two streams of work that we're going to carry. 601 00:38:33.649 --> 00:38:40.797 So one of them is maybe more EU level with our different partners on the affordable housing plan, 602 00:38:40.798 --> 00:38:48.563 but not only made broader on the topic of housing and what the EU does about it and what are the different policies. 603 00:38:48.610 --> 00:38:49.047 So there, 604 00:38:49.766 --> 00:38:51.282 one important consideration would be to, 605 00:38:51.828 --> 00:38:53.953 as with everything that we basically just talked, 606 00:38:53.954 --> 00:38:54.672 that these... 607 00:38:55.277 --> 00:38:59.081 These are designed in a way that is complementary with our climate objectives, 608 00:38:59.142 --> 00:39:02.646 because climate objectives are also health objectives in the long term, 609 00:39:03.247 --> 00:39:05.404 and in some cases not only so much in the long term, 610 00:39:06.029 --> 00:39:06.630 also currently. 611 00:39:07.310 --> 00:39:09.755 And another work stream will be more, 612 00:39:09.974 --> 00:39:10.091 well, 613 00:39:10.154 --> 00:39:13.177 implementing all of the things that we've decided these past years. 614 00:39:13.427 --> 00:39:14.130 And with this, 615 00:39:14.161 --> 00:39:16.443 we're going to work with our national members, 616 00:39:17.036 --> 00:39:17.661 because we have, 617 00:39:17.802 --> 00:39:18.333 with the campaign, 618 00:39:18.334 --> 00:39:20.458 we have identified five focal points, 619 00:39:20.927 --> 00:39:21.380 we call them. 620 00:39:22.021 --> 00:39:22.146 So... 621 00:39:22.918 --> 00:39:23.358 France, 622 00:39:23.840 --> 00:39:24.120 Spain, 623 00:39:24.180 --> 00:39:24.682 Portugal, 624 00:39:24.842 --> 00:39:25.803 Italy and Poland. 625 00:39:26.963 --> 00:39:32.014 We're going to be working closely with our members there and doing activities and... 626 00:39:33.345 --> 00:39:37.186 trying to find the best ways to work on national building renovation plans. 627 00:39:37.805 --> 00:39:39.868 So we're going to, 628 00:39:40.048 --> 00:39:40.567 first of all, 629 00:39:41.005 --> 00:39:44.247 try to have these plans ready at the right time. 630 00:39:45.091 --> 00:39:49.005 So we're going to engage with different policymakers for these plans, 631 00:39:49.825 --> 00:39:55.403 not to be just plans that stay there in an administration in a closet and that are not applied. 632 00:39:55.950 --> 00:39:59.606 So asking for ambition and social justice. 633 00:40:00.450 --> 00:40:01.497 and we're going to 634 00:40:02.313 --> 00:40:17.909 try once we have them to analyze them with our members and to see what can be done better there it's going to be also maybe a dual effort between the member state level but also the commission that needs to review them and give them their assessment so 635 00:40:17.925 --> 00:40:28.784 yeah they're basically going to be the two work streams i'm sure things are going to pop in i'm sure there's going to be a lot of things changing but yeah we're going to keep also trying to reach out to different organizations that work on the same topic. 636 00:40:29.597 --> 00:40:30.284 And we're also... 637 00:40:30.917 --> 00:40:39.102 Something that I forgot to say at the beginning is that the report is part of a broad work that we're doing and trying to collect inspiring stories. 638 00:40:40.297 --> 00:40:50.016 And this is a running exercise we're trying to do because hopefully we hope that there's going to be more and more examples that will come in front of us with time. 639 00:40:51.063 --> 00:40:53.875 So this is also something that we will continue doing. 640 00:40:54.063 --> 00:40:58.188 I'd like to say thanks to everyone that gives time and information. 641 00:40:58.969 --> 00:41:14.602 allow us to have access to these inspiring stories because we're just gathering them and they're actually carrying out the stories and uh through this help we wouldn't have anything so yeah so yeah it's always important to acknowledge absolutely 642 00:41:14.626 --> 00:41:24.298 i must say they are also very useful for the work of the uh new year in the house facility expert group and by the way there There is a... 643 00:41:25.713 --> 00:41:27.053 The New Europe and Bauhaus 644 00:41:27.473 --> 00:41:30.434 Festival will happen mid-June 2026. 645 00:41:31.235 --> 00:41:32.114 And yeah, 646 00:41:32.415 --> 00:41:36.899 that would actually be fantastic if the World of Better Lives could be there as well. 647 00:41:36.954 --> 00:41:37.813 It's going to be in Brussels. 648 00:41:37.915 --> 00:41:38.954 Bringing some of the examples, 649 00:41:38.977 --> 00:41:39.094 yeah. 650 00:41:39.313 --> 00:41:39.516 Yeah, 651 00:41:39.618 --> 00:41:40.016 exactly, 652 00:41:40.079 --> 00:41:40.438 exactly. 653 00:41:40.540 --> 00:41:41.875 That would be really amazing. 654 00:41:41.891 --> 00:41:49.704 So I think we need more cooperation and more dialogue. 655 00:41:50.532 --> 00:41:51.922 Let's take a call message. 656 00:41:52.513 --> 00:41:52.914 Exactly. 657 00:41:53.334 --> 00:41:54.274 Thank you so much, 658 00:41:54.315 --> 00:41:54.655 Armand. 659 00:41:56.177 --> 00:41:59.138 Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Energetic. 660 00:41:59.399 --> 00:42:07.286 It's been a pleasure diving deep into the world of sustainability and the just energy transition with some of the most forward thinking mouths out there. 661 00:42:07.927 --> 00:42:08.833 I'm Maureen Cornelis, 662 00:42:08.911 --> 00:42:11.739 your host from policy consultancy Next Energy Consumer. 663 00:42:12.114 --> 00:42:15.583 And it's been an incredible journey growing this podcast together with you, 664 00:42:15.958 --> 00:42:18.052 our knowledgeable and passionate listeners. 665 00:42:18.765 --> 00:42:20.006 Since 2021, 666 00:42:20.187 --> 00:42:21.648 we've shared countless stories, 667 00:42:21.808 --> 00:42:25.472 insights and ideas over more than 40 episodes, 668 00:42:25.851 --> 00:42:29.035 and it's all thanks to your support and enthusiasm. 669 00:42:29.714 --> 00:42:34.019 If you've enjoyed our journey so far and want to help us keep the conversation going, 670 00:42:34.402 --> 00:42:35.996 why not support us on Patreon? 671 00:42:36.621 --> 00:42:39.933 Every bit helps us bring more inspiring content your way. 672 00:42:40.402 --> 00:42:42.214 Check out the show notes for the link. 673 00:42:42.933 --> 00:42:43.324 And hey, 674 00:42:43.793 --> 00:42:47.449 if you're a part of an organization that shares our passion for a sustainable 675 00:42:47.649 --> 00:42:49.429 and inclusive energy future, 676 00:42:49.930 --> 00:42:52.811 we're excited to explore sponsorship opportunities with you. 677 00:42:53.272 --> 00:42:59.311 It's a fantastic way to connect with a dedicated audience and make an even bigger impact together. 678 00:43:00.296 --> 00:43:01.733 Shout out to the fantastic 679 00:43:02.092 --> 00:43:07.600 Igor Mikhailovich from Podcast Media Factory for his incredible sound design work, 680 00:43:07.960 --> 00:43:10.397 making every episode a joy to listen to. 681 00:43:11.288 --> 00:43:12.319 If you haven't already, 682 00:43:12.569 --> 00:43:16.022 make sure to subscribe to Energetic on your favorite podcast platform. 683 00:43:16.497 --> 00:43:20.001 And if you think a friend or a colleague could benefit from our episode, 684 00:43:20.362 --> 00:43:21.983 we'd love for you to spread the word. 685 00:43:22.424 --> 00:43:26.647 It helps us grow and keep the energy transition conversation alive. 686 00:43:27.147 --> 00:43:28.452 Sharing is caring. 687 00:43:28.991 --> 00:43:34.147 Follow us on Twitter and LinkedIn to stay engaged and update on all things energetic. 688 00:43:34.460 --> 00:43:36.350 Thanks once again for lending your ears. 689 00:43:36.491 --> 00:43:37.241 Until next time.