WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.088 --> 00:00:04.011 We are a podcast for product marketers and B2B SaaS who feel misunderstood of what they do. 2 00:00:04.131 --> 00:00:10.296 From someone who truly gets what you do and basically help you feel less like a misfit being unenormable in your role. 3 00:00:21.504 --> 00:00:26.908 Welcome everyone to another ecstatic episode of We're Not Markers. 4 00:00:27.168 --> 00:00:30.410 We've got another illustrious guest on deck, 5 00:00:30.530 --> 00:00:34.273 but before we bring her out on this stage, 6 00:00:35.114 --> 00:00:38.056 let's pass the mic around to our fellow co-host. 7 00:00:38.096 --> 00:00:39.297 Let's kick it off with Eric. 8 00:00:40.658 --> 00:00:40.778 Oh, 9 00:00:40.779 --> 00:00:42.759 I like that new pass the mic around. 10 00:00:42.760 --> 00:00:43.580 We got to keep that. 11 00:00:44.080 --> 00:00:45.601 I am Eric Holland, 12 00:00:45.782 --> 00:00:48.203 the Franken manager of the group. 13 00:00:49.444 --> 00:00:49.704 Gab, 14 00:00:50.265 --> 00:00:50.605 your turn. 15 00:00:51.606 --> 00:00:51.986 Thank you. 16 00:00:52.386 --> 00:00:52.907 Gab Bugeaud, 17 00:00:53.387 --> 00:00:54.548 Sales Deck Associate. 18 00:00:54.788 --> 00:00:57.029 Still doing sales deck and I'll pass it back to Zach. 19 00:01:00.171 --> 00:01:00.611 Thanks y'all. 20 00:01:01.572 --> 00:01:03.093 Before we hit the record button, 21 00:01:03.453 --> 00:01:12.378 we were speaking with this guest and one comment we strung out was that you've really strung the line of weird LinkedIn as of late. 22 00:01:13.058 --> 00:01:18.541 And you'd be surprised who this person is because she's killing it in her career. 23 00:01:19.062 --> 00:01:23.044 She's painting amazing photos that she hung up in the wharf. 24 00:01:23.444 --> 00:01:26.066 She's running ultra marathons. 25 00:01:26.547 --> 00:01:28.748 I don't know how she's doing. 26 00:01:28.929 --> 00:01:30.750 It reflects her career growth too, 27 00:01:30.910 --> 00:01:36.435 from starting as an individual IC PMM two years later in PMM leadership. 28 00:01:36.755 --> 00:01:41.499 But I'm going to stop right there because we're going to bring out on the stage Amanda Groves, 29 00:01:41.639 --> 00:01:43.721 VP of PMM at Enable. 30 00:01:44.081 --> 00:01:44.621 What's cracking, 31 00:01:44.661 --> 00:01:44.982 Amanda? 32 00:01:45.642 --> 00:01:45.802 Hey, 33 00:01:46.123 --> 00:01:46.963 what an introduction. 34 00:01:47.063 --> 00:01:47.304 Wow, 35 00:01:47.444 --> 00:01:48.825 I am blushing from ear to ear. 36 00:01:49.205 --> 00:01:49.325 Well, 37 00:01:49.345 --> 00:01:49.686 thank you. 38 00:01:49.746 --> 00:01:49.926 Yes, 39 00:01:50.046 --> 00:01:50.166 well, 40 00:01:50.386 --> 00:01:51.187 happy to be here. 41 00:01:51.487 --> 00:01:52.368 And I 42 00:01:52.668 --> 00:01:53.689 I have loved the show, 43 00:01:53.869 --> 00:01:54.669 long-time listener, 44 00:01:54.709 --> 00:01:55.510 first-time caller. 45 00:01:55.630 --> 00:01:57.591 So really happy to be with boys. 46 00:02:00.754 --> 00:02:04.356 So now you know the next question that's going to be coming your way. 47 00:02:05.056 --> 00:02:09.059 I'm going to stop right there and I'm just going to step back into the sidelines. 48 00:02:09.880 --> 00:02:10.700 Is that my turn now? 49 00:02:11.040 --> 00:02:13.242 I'm forgetting the way things work. 50 00:02:13.402 --> 00:02:13.982 Bro, 51 00:02:14.203 --> 00:02:15.423 we recorded over 60 episodes. 52 00:02:15.424 --> 00:02:15.544 No, 53 00:02:15.545 --> 00:02:16.684 it's always your turn. 54 00:02:16.685 --> 00:02:16.924 I know, 55 00:02:17.024 --> 00:02:17.245 dude. 56 00:02:17.405 --> 00:02:18.025 It's a Thursday. 57 00:02:18.065 --> 00:02:18.405 That's why. 58 00:02:18.786 --> 00:02:19.166 Amanda, 59 00:02:19.167 --> 00:02:20.667 I'm product marketers. 60 00:02:21.067 --> 00:02:21.447 Actually, 61 00:02:21.508 --> 00:02:22.028 marketers. 62 00:02:22.348 --> 00:02:24.049 Why or why not? 63 00:02:24.089 --> 00:02:24.249 Ooh, 64 00:02:25.170 --> 00:02:26.450 this is the age old debate. 65 00:02:26.650 --> 00:02:30.052 I think it's one that we have internally as a team, 66 00:02:30.392 --> 00:02:32.834 depending on what initiative we're working on, 67 00:02:33.294 --> 00:02:35.215 what we're fighting to be a part of, 68 00:02:35.315 --> 00:02:35.575 right? 69 00:02:35.576 --> 00:02:39.097 If there's something that we may be getting to learn of after the fact, 70 00:02:39.337 --> 00:02:40.318 you want to be in the room. 71 00:02:40.538 --> 00:02:40.978 Hamilton, 72 00:02:41.078 --> 00:02:41.258 what? 73 00:02:41.578 --> 00:02:44.240 We want to be in the room where it happens and it depends on 74 00:02:44.744 --> 00:02:53.648 The growth stage of the business where marketing and product marketing is seen and heard as a part of the team and some others that are still learning the craft, 75 00:02:53.748 --> 00:02:56.109 where it sits and how it's realized. 76 00:02:56.209 --> 00:02:57.150 Are we marketers? 77 00:02:57.270 --> 00:03:02.452 I would say the people who I bring into my teams are the nonconformists, 78 00:03:02.532 --> 00:03:03.492 like the rebels, 79 00:03:03.572 --> 00:03:05.813 the people who are willing to go against the grain. 80 00:03:07.574 --> 00:03:11.436 I would love to see more marketers have that fabric of 81 00:03:11.796 --> 00:03:13.758 zagging when everyone else is zigging. 82 00:03:13.958 --> 00:03:16.800 And so I think with all of those attributes, 83 00:03:17.341 --> 00:03:18.822 we are more than marketers. 84 00:03:18.842 --> 00:03:20.223 So maybe we aren't marketers. 85 00:03:20.383 --> 00:03:20.623 Again, 86 00:03:20.663 --> 00:03:23.406 that nonconformist through line is what I do. 87 00:03:23.806 --> 00:03:25.287 You have that spidey sense with people. 88 00:03:25.467 --> 00:03:30.411 Well actually I see it this way or I heard it from over here and maybe we're considering it that way. 89 00:03:30.912 --> 00:03:32.273 Marketing's all about trends, 90 00:03:32.333 --> 00:03:36.396 but like to really stick out and go against what everyone else is doing, 91 00:03:36.436 --> 00:03:37.657 maybe you shouldn't follow that trend. 92 00:03:37.737 --> 00:03:38.858 Maybe you shouldn't be a marketer. 93 00:03:39.259 --> 00:03:40.800 Maybe you should be someone else. 94 00:03:40.920 --> 00:03:42.420 and a product marketer for that matter. 95 00:03:43.841 --> 00:03:46.142 - So when you say nonconformist, 96 00:03:46.382 --> 00:03:48.402 are you referring to like 97 00:03:48.762 --> 00:03:50.663 Comic Sans on a pitch deck? 98 00:03:50.943 --> 00:03:52.843 What does nonconformists on 99 00:03:53.364 --> 00:03:55.324 Amanda Grove's team look like? 100 00:03:56.264 --> 00:03:57.165 - Nonconformist, 101 00:03:57.345 --> 00:04:00.946 well one is just something that I've always been as a person. 102 00:04:01.006 --> 00:04:08.428 I think you can have people tell you who you are and who they think you are based on the limited information that they know about you 103 00:04:08.952 --> 00:04:12.093 To come back to the introduction of how I've grown my career, 104 00:04:12.533 --> 00:04:14.113 I have had a lot of people say, 105 00:04:14.234 --> 00:04:14.374 "Well, 106 00:04:14.394 --> 00:04:15.714 maybe you shouldn't be in marketing. 107 00:04:15.854 --> 00:04:21.075 We're not seeing you in this marketing profile in the way that we've always understood it." 108 00:04:21.796 --> 00:04:24.757 So coming back to being a nonconformist, 109 00:04:24.797 --> 00:04:25.297 it's about, 110 00:04:25.337 --> 00:04:25.637 I think, 111 00:04:25.697 --> 00:04:27.397 challenging with intention, 112 00:04:27.537 --> 00:04:28.898 staying really curious, 113 00:04:30.618 --> 00:04:35.259 bringing a lot of information into the conversation and challenging the norm, 114 00:04:35.340 --> 00:04:36.620 challenging the status quo 115 00:04:37.184 --> 00:04:38.945 That's what product marketers are doing, 116 00:04:38.985 --> 00:04:39.145 right? 117 00:04:39.165 --> 00:04:39.966 We're disruptors. 118 00:04:40.106 --> 00:04:44.008 You have to be a nonconformist to be the biggest disruptor in the room, 119 00:04:44.009 --> 00:04:44.708 in the market, 120 00:04:45.089 --> 00:04:45.849 in the industry. 121 00:04:46.109 --> 00:04:48.070 So that's what I mean by that. 122 00:04:48.170 --> 00:04:52.933 Those people who have struck me to have that fabric or in their DNA, 123 00:04:53.594 --> 00:04:56.055 whether it's in the interview or I meet them at a conference, 124 00:04:56.235 --> 00:04:57.916 they're asking really good questions. 125 00:04:57.917 --> 00:04:59.517 They're really inquisitive. 126 00:04:59.697 --> 00:05:02.899 They're pulling on a thread that's invisible to me and I haven't noticed, 127 00:05:02.900 --> 00:05:04.200 but they're making me notice it. 128 00:05:04.280 --> 00:05:04.400 So 129 00:05:05.080 --> 00:05:09.182 I think those are the some of the ways I've identified those similar like rebels. 130 00:05:09.762 --> 00:05:11.663 And it's when you have that together, 131 00:05:12.343 --> 00:05:12.964 product marketers, 132 00:05:12.965 --> 00:05:22.168 we do so much a lot of it is a rally cry for a product and who better to shape that than people who can actually rally and hype in a way that no one else can. 133 00:05:24.508 --> 00:05:24.688 Yeah, 134 00:05:24.828 --> 00:05:30.073 and I'm really just chewing on that piece about being a nonconformist. 135 00:05:30.333 --> 00:05:36.218 Not necessarily having to break things but not being afraid to research in the other direction. 136 00:05:37.759 --> 00:05:39.461 This might be my opinion, 137 00:05:39.521 --> 00:05:41.683 don't want to say it's the other two on the show, 138 00:05:41.823 --> 00:05:42.043 but 139 00:05:42.684 --> 00:05:47.728 I tend to find that we're asked to conform. 140 00:05:48.028 --> 00:05:50.850 Others are wanting us to maybe go in a certain direction, 141 00:05:50.911 --> 00:05:51.451 like you said, 142 00:05:51.591 --> 00:05:52.492 zig while 143 00:05:53.100 --> 00:05:55.222 we maybe want to try zagging for a while. 144 00:05:56.362 --> 00:06:03.428 What do you think is like the way to get over that and encourage some of the people who might be a little skittish to go against the zigging grain? 145 00:06:03.988 --> 00:06:05.269 And start moving in that zag. 146 00:06:05.609 --> 00:06:05.869 Yeah, 147 00:06:06.109 --> 00:06:12.434 well it's a good way to preface it where you're not trying to be disruptive to the point of breaking things. 148 00:06:12.474 --> 00:06:16.497 And certainly you may have to what the is the saying crack some eggs to make an omelet. 149 00:06:16.537 --> 00:06:18.698 Like sometimes you just you do need to break some things. 150 00:06:19.159 --> 00:06:20.600 To tap into the weird LinkedIn 151 00:06:21.136 --> 00:06:21.716 I was, 152 00:06:21.756 --> 00:06:23.878 I shared this with Zach before the call, 153 00:06:24.038 --> 00:06:27.900 just thinking about product marketing and all of the ways that we are nonconformists. 154 00:06:28.380 --> 00:06:31.662 And I use the analogy like Bogwitch isn't quite correct. 155 00:06:31.702 --> 00:06:33.023 Maybe you're a troll under the bridge, 156 00:06:33.063 --> 00:06:35.024 but you're stopping people before they pass. 157 00:06:35.664 --> 00:06:38.786 And that is in a sense of non-conforming, 158 00:06:38.826 --> 00:06:38.986 right? 159 00:06:39.006 --> 00:06:44.669 People want to skirt right over maybe the go-to-market process and shout about something before it's ready. 160 00:06:44.969 --> 00:06:45.830 We have to stop them, 161 00:06:45.970 --> 00:06:49.072 kind of check the scorecard a bit before we're ready to go. 162 00:06:49.780 --> 00:06:52.742 And that nonconformity will help us speed up. 163 00:06:52.782 --> 00:07:00.467 So it's a slow down to speed up mentality that product marketers can bring to the organization where we're not doing this to be difficult, 164 00:07:00.507 --> 00:07:15.497 we're doing this to get to write faster with more predictability so we can make a splash as a team and get more market share from slowing down to speed up and maybe nonconforming to what our competitors are doing to make 165 00:07:15.517 --> 00:07:16.318 that 166 00:07:19.340 --> 00:07:19.520 us, 167 00:07:19.620 --> 00:07:21.181 the business and the product marketing team. 168 00:07:22.562 --> 00:07:29.825 How do you socialize that philosophy in an industry that has always believed in moving fast and breaking things? 169 00:07:31.726 --> 00:07:42.192 I think you can move fast and break things once you've shown you can and you have to do that in a way where it becomes that slow down to speed up again 170 00:07:42.672 --> 00:07:44.013 It doesn't happen overnight. 171 00:07:44.133 --> 00:07:48.855 No one walks into an organization with trust built and it's something that has to be earned. 172 00:07:49.295 --> 00:07:51.476 And so if a product marketer can say, 173 00:07:51.956 --> 00:07:52.236 hey, 174 00:07:52.436 --> 00:07:58.299 this is something where I have conviction with a capital C and we need to really think about this and this is why, 175 00:07:58.979 --> 00:08:02.040 that's to me the difference between good and great product marketers. 176 00:08:02.100 --> 00:08:04.902 It's having that conviction in their point of view. 177 00:08:05.482 --> 00:08:07.283 And once they've been able to test that, 178 00:08:07.483 --> 00:08:10.084 show the business that there's meat 179 00:08:10.304 --> 00:08:11.465 to this conversation, 180 00:08:11.605 --> 00:08:14.347 then it will allow them to move fast and break stuff more. 181 00:08:14.847 --> 00:08:19.370 And I would want anyone on my team to break the things that need to be broken. 182 00:08:19.450 --> 00:08:19.610 Like, 183 00:08:19.630 --> 00:08:22.512 I don't want to do the right thing or the wrong thing the right way. 184 00:08:22.993 --> 00:08:24.334 I want to do the right thing more. 185 00:08:25.294 --> 00:08:28.516 And the best way to do that is to continue to test and experiment and challenge. 186 00:08:28.617 --> 00:08:31.198 But in challenge in a way that we've done the work, 187 00:08:31.218 --> 00:08:32.119 the voice of the customer, 188 00:08:32.159 --> 00:08:33.220 the market intelligence, 189 00:08:33.280 --> 00:08:36.342 all the R&D to say why it's a good thread to pull on. 190 00:08:39.804 --> 00:08:41.545 How many people do you have on your team right now? 191 00:08:43.226 --> 00:08:43.526 Let's see. 192 00:08:43.586 --> 00:08:46.628 I think we are about sitting between seven and eight right now. 193 00:08:47.268 --> 00:08:47.569 Nice. 194 00:08:47.749 --> 00:08:48.009 All right, 195 00:08:48.449 --> 00:08:50.650 so shout out to all those awesome seven and eight. 196 00:08:51.351 --> 00:08:56.114 What are you shielding them from outside of your little mini product marketing org? 197 00:08:56.654 --> 00:09:06.480 So they can go out and do some of those things and bring you some really good information and knowledge that says yeah Go let's move forward with this and I can help you in 198 00:09:06.948 --> 00:09:09.991 navigate these tough discussions that are obviously going to come up? 199 00:09:10.952 --> 00:09:11.152 Yeah, 200 00:09:11.372 --> 00:09:13.834 I think it's not a muscle that, 201 00:09:14.655 --> 00:09:14.955 again, 202 00:09:15.095 --> 00:09:16.377 is grown overnight. 203 00:09:16.557 --> 00:09:21.481 And depending on where you are in your product marketing career and how you got into product marketing, 204 00:09:21.501 --> 00:09:23.783 you'll have more comfort level with challenging. 205 00:09:23.823 --> 00:09:27.326 I think everyone has a different story for how they got into it. 206 00:09:27.687 --> 00:09:29.588 I've seen a lot that are journalists. 207 00:09:29.628 --> 00:09:30.849 I was a journalism major, 208 00:09:30.970 --> 00:09:33.732 so asking questions is critical to the craft. 209 00:09:34.012 --> 00:09:42.518 So those that maybe are comfortable with asking questions and the five whys or whatever framework you're comfortable with can help you break into that. 210 00:09:42.519 --> 00:09:47.182 And you start to track like where the questions are leading to better conversations. 211 00:09:47.322 --> 00:09:49.143 You're better qualifying your questions. 212 00:09:49.704 --> 00:09:51.785 So that's something that I will encourage. 213 00:09:51.805 --> 00:09:57.709 And then something that is it's unignorable in the practice is bringing it back to the customer. 214 00:09:57.850 --> 00:10:01.092 If you're framing your intent with I think we should. 215 00:10:01.192 --> 00:10:05.235 be doing X because it's going to have a better customer outcome and we all benefit from that, 216 00:10:05.596 --> 00:10:11.321 it's going to neutralize the conversation and make every party lean into what you're trying to drive forward. 217 00:10:11.801 --> 00:10:15.805 So coming at it from that place of this is for the benefit of the customer, 218 00:10:15.885 --> 00:10:21.510 we're wrapping our intention around that allows product marketers and not even just product marketers, 219 00:10:21.530 --> 00:10:23.952 really anyone that's driving towards that outcome to... 220 00:10:24.638 --> 00:10:24.878 again, 221 00:10:24.978 --> 00:10:29.760 just neutralize if there's turf wars or if we're challenging something that maybe someone's precious about. 222 00:10:30.200 --> 00:10:30.920 Strip that away. 223 00:10:31.040 --> 00:10:31.840 It's not about us. 224 00:10:31.980 --> 00:10:33.681 We're not bringing ego into the equation. 225 00:10:33.741 --> 00:10:35.301 It's about the customer experience. 226 00:10:36.982 --> 00:10:44.424 Tell us a bit more about how the customer experience is changing with AI and I'll give you some more context. 227 00:10:46.965 --> 00:10:49.106 Everyone's talking about AI but I noticed that 228 00:10:50.006 --> 00:10:50.266 Again, 229 00:10:50.546 --> 00:10:54.868 I'm not familiar how that is impacting in the manufacturing space that your company works within today. 230 00:10:55.488 --> 00:10:55.608 Yeah. 231 00:10:55.828 --> 00:10:55.988 But 232 00:10:56.549 --> 00:11:04.152 I think one challenge that we've observed is that we talk about AI, 233 00:11:04.392 --> 00:11:08.794 but our buyers don't know how to use it within our product. 234 00:11:09.194 --> 00:11:19.478 But our leadership wants us to just throw AI on our homepage and into ad nauseum to show that we're innovating. 235 00:11:21.690 --> 00:11:25.011 And then it creates this pressure for them, 236 00:11:25.091 --> 00:11:35.074 the PMM teams to try to figure out a way of talking about AI while still trying to connect with their buying audience. 237 00:11:35.474 --> 00:11:38.095 How does that statement resonate with you? 238 00:11:38.675 --> 00:11:40.616 What have you been hearing from your peers? 239 00:11:40.876 --> 00:11:42.856 And then follow up maybe is like, 240 00:11:42.857 --> 00:11:45.817 how's you and your team approaching this? 241 00:11:46.057 --> 00:11:47.218 It's a really good question. 242 00:11:47.598 --> 00:11:48.258 And yeah, 243 00:11:48.418 --> 00:11:51.339 It's the soup du jour topic amongst everyone, 244 00:11:51.399 --> 00:11:52.639 whether you're out in 245 00:11:53.139 --> 00:11:53.880 LinkedIn land, 246 00:11:53.900 --> 00:11:56.580 you can't scroll without seeing a post about AI impact, 247 00:11:56.680 --> 00:11:57.941 AI replacing people. 248 00:11:58.521 --> 00:12:02.602 And I wouldn't say if the positioning is AI replacing a role, 249 00:12:03.082 --> 00:12:05.623 you are going to have a positive reaction to that. 250 00:12:05.803 --> 00:12:08.644 And so you extrapolate that out into the buying world. 251 00:12:09.004 --> 00:12:12.945 We don't want to position AI as a threat like AI needs to be. 252 00:12:13.585 --> 00:12:15.505 If you're looking at it as an architecture, 253 00:12:15.665 --> 00:12:16.966 you have your platform layer. 254 00:12:17.954 --> 00:12:21.656 AI embedded layer and then the applications you're building on top of it. 255 00:12:21.736 --> 00:12:24.417 So when you think of your homepage, 256 00:12:24.577 --> 00:12:26.718 you're not messaging that as a market texture. 257 00:12:26.778 --> 00:12:32.880 So it's interesting right now that the technology is taking such a front seat in how we are connecting with other humans. 258 00:12:33.320 --> 00:12:34.401 We know that it's a bubble, 259 00:12:34.501 --> 00:12:35.761 we know that it's a buzz. 260 00:12:36.022 --> 00:12:36.142 So 261 00:12:36.842 --> 00:12:42.684 I think it's something that we have to actively navigate and pressure test and show our leadership team. 262 00:12:43.085 --> 00:12:45.145 I know you're really eager to talk about AI. 263 00:12:45.285 --> 00:12:46.386 It's a very exciting 264 00:12:46.686 --> 00:12:53.693 opportunity for all of us to better enrich our technology and help our buyers get to outcomes faster. 265 00:12:54.093 --> 00:12:57.016 But that getting to outcomes faster has to be the story. 266 00:12:57.116 --> 00:12:58.938 It's not the what or the how, 267 00:12:59.178 --> 00:13:03.943 it's the why and why does that matter to the customer cannot get lost in the sauce. 268 00:13:04.183 --> 00:13:04.303 So 269 00:13:05.164 --> 00:13:06.545 I think Elena Verna, 270 00:13:07.146 --> 00:13:08.207 lovable head of growth, 271 00:13:08.247 --> 00:13:11.630 does a great job in showing how AI is 272 00:13:11.850 --> 00:13:13.071 extremely powerful, 273 00:13:13.251 --> 00:13:14.252 but in a way that, 274 00:13:14.332 --> 00:13:15.493 and she described it great. 275 00:13:15.533 --> 00:13:16.734 I really latched onto it. 276 00:13:17.235 --> 00:13:19.757 It's allowing AI to handle the 101, 277 00:13:20.017 --> 00:13:22.159 like the very administrative work, 278 00:13:22.239 --> 00:13:23.039 not in all cases, 279 00:13:23.079 --> 00:13:23.700 but in most, 280 00:13:23.840 --> 00:13:24.601 at least where we are, 281 00:13:24.621 --> 00:13:27.603 I think in my industry's AI use cases, 282 00:13:27.843 --> 00:13:37.632 it's just automating away all the 101 so the user can get to the strategic 201 and 301 and 401 work classes that they want to do, 283 00:13:37.852 --> 00:13:38.973 where they get energy from. 284 00:13:39.073 --> 00:13:40.074 No one wants to be... 285 00:13:40.634 --> 00:13:41.334 in my industry, 286 00:13:41.374 --> 00:13:42.215 to answer your question, 287 00:13:42.255 --> 00:13:43.775 it's a lot of agreement creation, 288 00:13:43.875 --> 00:13:45.075 agreement negotiation, 289 00:13:45.676 --> 00:13:49.397 just that agreement creation work and alone between your trading partners. 290 00:13:49.457 --> 00:13:52.598 We're essentially a trading platform for suppliers, 291 00:13:52.698 --> 00:13:53.458 retailers, 292 00:13:53.918 --> 00:14:02.621 manufacturers to come in and exchange data and get the best deal and price and run rebate programs intelligently. 293 00:14:02.781 --> 00:14:06.362 So having your best people create agreements not the great 294 00:14:06.602 --> 00:14:07.523 the best use of time. 295 00:14:07.563 --> 00:14:07.983 So again, 296 00:14:08.043 --> 00:14:11.545 going back to that automating away the one-on-one so they can do their best work. 297 00:14:11.585 --> 00:14:13.506 I know that's a cliche saying at this point, 298 00:14:13.546 --> 00:14:17.808 but that is really the core of what I think product marketers need to hold on to. 299 00:14:17.908 --> 00:14:19.589 And if they have leadership that is well, 300 00:14:20.130 --> 00:14:20.410 you know, 301 00:14:21.010 --> 00:14:22.831 that Portlandia episode, 302 00:14:22.832 --> 00:14:23.632 like put a bird on it, 303 00:14:23.692 --> 00:14:24.432 put AI on it. 304 00:14:24.892 --> 00:14:25.793 We don't need to do that. 305 00:14:26.033 --> 00:14:32.117 There's so much fatigue in AI and the test show messaging tests show that buyers aren't interested in having AI everywhere. 306 00:14:32.337 --> 00:14:34.298 They want AI to be their partner. 307 00:14:34.746 --> 00:14:35.446 But they're the human, 308 00:14:35.506 --> 00:14:36.927 they're in the control seat. 309 00:14:37.468 --> 00:14:40.769 And that's where it needs to stay and how we message it at least at this point. 310 00:14:41.310 --> 00:14:43.671 Because I want to make sure we all hear this. 311 00:14:44.071 --> 00:14:45.592 Let's settle this once and for all. 312 00:14:46.492 --> 00:14:48.433 So buyers don't want 313 00:14:48.894 --> 00:14:51.955 AI to automate everything in their job? 314 00:14:52.996 --> 00:14:54.357 Now look to the rest of the crew. 315 00:14:54.417 --> 00:14:55.797 I'm curious what you're hearing. 316 00:14:56.678 --> 00:14:59.679 I've so I'm still in house until tomorrow. 317 00:14:59.840 --> 00:15:03.141 So I get the benefit of talking to our customer base. 318 00:15:04.762 --> 00:15:07.245 There's yet to be a single person who's, 319 00:15:07.385 --> 00:15:08.647 I want AI. 320 00:15:10.429 --> 00:15:12.752 And I've not heard that in a single call. 321 00:15:12.952 --> 00:15:13.833 People will ask, 322 00:15:14.274 --> 00:15:15.576 what are you doing with AI? 323 00:15:15.636 --> 00:15:16.977 But I've never heard anyone say, 324 00:15:17.118 --> 00:15:19.621 I need this AI feature. 325 00:15:20.822 --> 00:15:21.563 They'll normally say, 326 00:15:21.763 --> 00:15:23.546 wouldn't it be cool if I could do this? 327 00:15:24.581 --> 00:15:24.741 Yes, 328 00:15:24.781 --> 00:15:24.981 same. 329 00:15:25.462 --> 00:15:26.823 And that's what I typically hear. 330 00:15:27.003 --> 00:15:28.264 And it's again, 331 00:15:28.364 --> 00:15:28.604 yes, 332 00:15:28.684 --> 00:15:30.526 the conversation is around AI, 333 00:15:31.186 --> 00:15:34.089 but the customer doesn't even think of it that way. 334 00:15:34.429 --> 00:15:35.110 They're just like, 335 00:15:36.070 --> 00:15:40.774 I don't care if you're using sticks and paper or you're using robots in the background. 336 00:15:40.814 --> 00:15:42.416 Just let me get to what I'm trying to do. 337 00:15:44.377 --> 00:15:44.497 Yeah. 338 00:15:44.597 --> 00:15:49.882 What I'm hearing is there's usually a lot of technologists wants to pivot in that sense. 339 00:15:49.883 --> 00:15:53.064 They're like our use cases are not big enough for market just doesn't fit. 340 00:15:53.065 --> 00:15:54.045 So they're looking at that. 341 00:15:54.473 --> 00:15:55.874 But from a customer perspective, 342 00:15:56.715 --> 00:15:58.417 it's just creating even more noise. 343 00:15:58.457 --> 00:16:06.083 And I'm hearing a lot of people these days that are saying that they're almost sick and tired of just scrolling LinkedIn because it feels very much... 344 00:16:06.964 --> 00:16:07.424 Sorry about that. 345 00:16:07.645 --> 00:16:08.766 Very much AI-powered, 346 00:16:08.826 --> 00:16:09.066 right? 347 00:16:09.586 --> 00:16:18.654 There's the dead internet theory that everything that is getting written down is like bland and it's just stuff that has been repeated and repeated over and over. 348 00:16:19.255 --> 00:16:21.417 So that's why posts like... 349 00:16:21.969 --> 00:16:23.210 being a bug or troll, 350 00:16:23.270 --> 00:16:27.051 then people need to pay the toll to interact with product marketing. 351 00:16:27.071 --> 00:16:30.252 I feel like it's great because that weird stuff we dig it, 352 00:16:30.293 --> 00:16:30.853 we love it. 353 00:16:30.953 --> 00:16:35.175 It's so far left or like left field that we're just like, 354 00:16:35.295 --> 00:16:35.455 yeah, 355 00:16:35.495 --> 00:16:36.295 we need more of that. 356 00:16:36.296 --> 00:16:40.217 We need more of that element that makes it relevant and unique technically. 357 00:16:40.397 --> 00:16:40.517 Yeah. 358 00:16:41.317 --> 00:16:44.679 I'm going to give you guys an analogy that's recently happened to me. 359 00:16:45.739 --> 00:16:48.1000 Do any of you guys have a robotic vacuum at home? 360 00:16:50.201 --> 00:16:50.361 Yep. 361 00:16:50.765 --> 00:16:52.606 and she's almost destroyed entirely. 362 00:16:53.807 --> 00:16:54.127 Yeah, 363 00:16:54.147 --> 00:16:54.428 Roomba 364 00:16:55.448 --> 00:16:55.949 Yeah, Roomba. 365 00:16:57.410 --> 00:16:57.990 Let me... 366 00:16:57.991 --> 00:16:58.751 I'm gonna disclaimer this: 367 00:16:58.971 --> 00:17:00.152 I love my robotic vacuum. 368 00:17:00.932 --> 00:17:01.112 Like, 369 00:17:01.152 --> 00:17:01.993 I love AI. 370 00:17:02.593 --> 00:17:03.734 But for the love of God, 371 00:17:03.834 --> 00:17:05.876 like every time I turn this thing on, 372 00:17:06.496 --> 00:17:08.918 like every five minutes I'll get a little alarm. 373 00:17:09.218 --> 00:17:09.498 Why? 374 00:17:09.918 --> 00:17:10.299 Because 375 00:17:10.819 --> 00:17:11.099 "Oh no, 376 00:17:11.439 --> 00:17:12.860 it ran over my shoelace!" 377 00:17:13.441 --> 00:17:13.761 "Oh no, 378 00:17:14.101 --> 00:17:15.923 it got caught into cable cords!" 379 00:17:16.483 --> 00:17:19.285 And so this is why I come back to the point is that, 380 00:17:20.209 --> 00:17:23.272 A robotic vacuum cannot do everything in your house. 381 00:17:23.332 --> 00:17:23.752 There's still, 382 00:17:23.772 --> 00:17:24.233 like you said, 383 00:17:24.333 --> 00:17:24.693 Amanda, 384 00:17:24.713 --> 00:17:26.655 there still requires that human touch. 385 00:17:28.156 --> 00:17:31.680 Even though I have to sometimes crawl underneath my bed and pull it out, 386 00:17:32.721 --> 00:17:35.083 today AI can't do everything. 387 00:17:35.603 --> 00:17:37.725 And just to assume that it can just wipe us out, 388 00:17:38.366 --> 00:17:42.009 I think that's a very simplistic argument for us to be making today. 389 00:17:42.010 --> 00:17:43.450 And that falls on deaf ears, 390 00:17:43.470 --> 00:17:44.151 like you said here, 391 00:17:44.411 --> 00:17:46.093 in terms of when we're talking fires. 392 00:17:49.001 --> 00:17:50.162 Totally agree with that. 393 00:17:50.322 --> 00:17:51.582 We're still very early days, 394 00:17:51.583 --> 00:17:52.803 there's a lot of excitement. 395 00:17:52.943 --> 00:17:54.423 And one example, 396 00:17:54.503 --> 00:17:54.783 too, 397 00:17:55.344 --> 00:18:04.187 I don't know if any of you have tried this where you have two phones and you have your chat GPT voice mode on and you have them talking to each other, 398 00:18:04.628 --> 00:18:09.329 you can prompt it to see like how long the conversation will last and test the model in that way. 399 00:18:09.990 --> 00:18:11.150 So we did this last night, 400 00:18:11.170 --> 00:18:14.992 me and my partner and the first one was just like asking the other one the question. 401 00:18:15.072 --> 00:18:17.013 So they just went on a loop like asking a question. 402 00:18:17.014 --> 00:18:17.173 Well, 403 00:18:17.174 --> 00:18:17.813 I don't know if you've ever done that. 404 00:18:18.205 --> 00:18:19.106 I love that question. 405 00:18:19.826 --> 00:18:20.766 Would you ask that question? 406 00:18:21.387 --> 00:18:23.068 They couldn't get beyond the question. 407 00:18:23.568 --> 00:18:30.552 So we had a prompt where we wanted the one to be Socrates and role play with the student, 408 00:18:30.612 --> 00:18:31.772 the scholarly student. 409 00:18:32.092 --> 00:18:34.294 So that was the furthest we could get it to engage. 410 00:18:34.314 --> 00:18:42.638 But even then there was a plateau where they were just in the same loop of not getting to the next best action. 411 00:18:42.738 --> 00:18:43.379 So again, 412 00:18:43.579 --> 00:18:45.019 very rudimentary experiment, 413 00:18:45.059 --> 00:18:47.821 but there's still a lot to be desired from 414 00:18:48.101 --> 00:18:49.162 artificial intelligence. 415 00:18:50.183 --> 00:18:51.544 Y'all my type of household, 416 00:18:51.545 --> 00:18:52.024 I'll be like, 417 00:18:52.025 --> 00:18:52.144 "Yo, 418 00:18:52.625 --> 00:18:53.586 choose Kato next." 419 00:18:54.026 --> 00:18:55.027 All right. 420 00:18:55.047 --> 00:18:55.767 I want to be Kato. 421 00:18:56.308 --> 00:18:57.569 How about Marcus Aurelius? 422 00:19:01.772 --> 00:19:03.734 The stoicism household. 423 00:19:03.735 --> 00:19:03.814 Yeah. 424 00:19:03.815 --> 00:19:05.635 I'm like, 425 00:19:05.655 --> 00:19:06.696 "Y'all my type of house." 426 00:19:08.037 --> 00:19:08.458 Exactly. 427 00:19:09.879 --> 00:19:16.344 I would like to go back to the move fast and break things discussion we had just from a practical perspective. 428 00:19:16.364 --> 00:19:16.544 Okay. 429 00:19:16.604 --> 00:19:17.025 Let's say 430 00:19:17.265 --> 00:19:22.547 a founding PMM or I'm a junior PMM and I'm working with other folks in your team, 431 00:19:22.627 --> 00:19:26.969 hopefully having like seven or six great people I can kind of call on. 432 00:19:28.990 --> 00:19:34.872 If I'm trying to break things and make sure that the organization succeed and we're all working together, 433 00:19:36.093 --> 00:19:39.895 there's moments when like PMMs, 434 00:19:39.896 --> 00:19:40.675 we struggle between, 435 00:19:40.735 --> 00:19:40.915 okay, 436 00:19:41.055 --> 00:19:45.417 should I do with the consensus and just trust my colleague even if I have 437 00:19:45.933 --> 00:19:47.854 some sign or data that might tell me otherwise, 438 00:19:48.254 --> 00:19:52.296 or should I prioritize taking initiative on something else? 439 00:19:52.336 --> 00:19:52.576 Right. 440 00:19:53.476 --> 00:19:57.778 Just from your experience from product marketing leadership and everything you did in your career, 441 00:19:57.779 --> 00:19:58.438 I'm just curious, 442 00:19:58.559 --> 00:20:11.324 is there low-hanging fruit or specific observation in terms of data or triggers that us product marketing managers should take a look at to make sure that we can decide, 443 00:20:11.744 --> 00:20:13.285 is it better to have a consensus? 444 00:20:13.425 --> 00:20:17.328 or to take initiative and focus on breaking things without hurting anyone's feet a little bit. 445 00:20:17.941 --> 00:20:20.403 If you know me this far in the conversation, 446 00:20:20.563 --> 00:20:23.045 I am not one to be a consensus queen. 447 00:20:23.165 --> 00:20:25.586 Like a kitchen sink solution is not great. 448 00:20:25.826 --> 00:20:33.772 I've seen organizations where they've tried to go that route and you have a messaging doc that has just been red penned with all of these different thoughts, 449 00:20:33.832 --> 00:20:34.452 opinions, 450 00:20:34.533 --> 00:20:35.513 and it's diluted. 451 00:20:35.954 --> 00:20:37.615 It's worse than AI at that point. 452 00:20:37.815 --> 00:20:45.500 So it's something where I think you have to learn that where consensus can be good. 453 00:20:45.580 --> 00:20:46.601 And maybe that's like an 454 00:20:47.121 --> 00:20:51.905 you've deputized a small group and this is why these stakeholders are going to make a choice, 455 00:20:51.945 --> 00:20:54.547 whether it's a pricing committee or a product council, 456 00:20:54.607 --> 00:21:02.673 like consensus can be good in those environments where you need to hunt and gather your strongest voices to drive an initiative forward. 457 00:21:03.213 --> 00:21:09.798 But for product marketing teams where they have an initiative that they are the owner of and like their, 458 00:21:10.119 --> 00:21:13.161 the KR is tied to their outcome and their output and, 459 00:21:13.581 --> 00:21:15.162 I will always guide them and this is, 460 00:21:15.362 --> 00:21:17.103 I have a list of mantras on my team. 461 00:21:17.323 --> 00:21:28.328 They probably have a bingo card and roll their eyes with the many times I say them but it's consent over consensus and so we give our team members the knowledge that we are doing this, 462 00:21:28.609 --> 00:21:36.993 this is the path forward if you disagree you have your time to share that now but we plan to move forward in this way and this is why 463 00:21:37.529 --> 00:21:40.632 And so very much a fan of consent over consensus. 464 00:21:40.772 --> 00:21:43.914 I think consensus can be really dangerous in product marketing, 465 00:21:43.995 --> 00:21:48.538 especially when we have to have conviction in our point of view for the messaging, 466 00:21:48.598 --> 00:21:49.459 for the positioning. 467 00:21:49.499 --> 00:21:52.261 It's a surgical practice. 468 00:21:52.301 --> 00:21:53.623 And so if it's consensus, 469 00:21:53.983 --> 00:21:55.144 you're not going to be precise. 470 00:21:55.184 --> 00:21:55.824 That's to me, 471 00:21:56.425 --> 00:21:57.926 not what we should be aiming for. 472 00:21:58.146 --> 00:21:59.367 Unless like I started, 473 00:21:59.928 --> 00:22:01.589 there's a why and it's a product council, 474 00:22:01.849 --> 00:22:02.750 a pricing committee. 475 00:22:02.770 --> 00:22:05.092 There are certain times where consensus is correct, 476 00:22:05.172 --> 00:22:05.993 but it shouldn't be the... 477 00:22:06.133 --> 00:22:08.294 default posture of the team by any standard. 478 00:22:08.975 --> 00:22:09.475 I love it. 479 00:22:09.555 --> 00:22:09.855 And yeah, 480 00:22:09.955 --> 00:22:12.056 if everyone agrees, 481 00:22:12.276 --> 00:22:16.019 but we are not getting the input of the customers, 482 00:22:16.759 --> 00:22:17.199 it's wrong. 483 00:22:17.539 --> 00:22:21.862 Marketing and messaging by committee will just please potentially stakeholders, 484 00:22:21.942 --> 00:22:25.004 but they won't be happy when they see that no result is getting out of this. 485 00:22:25.744 --> 00:22:25.884 Yeah. 486 00:22:26.264 --> 00:22:26.424 Yeah. 487 00:22:26.425 --> 00:22:27.645 And that echo chamber, 488 00:22:28.025 --> 00:22:28.906 we think this is right. 489 00:22:28.926 --> 00:22:30.187 We're high on our own supply, 490 00:22:30.247 --> 00:22:31.147 so it must be right, 491 00:22:31.287 --> 00:22:32.908 but we didn't talk to anyone about it. 492 00:22:32.909 --> 00:22:34.409 And then you get it in market and it's 493 00:22:34.777 --> 00:22:38.820 Missing the mark and you've lost time and everything's moving so fast. 494 00:22:39.260 --> 00:22:40.981 You can't afford to lose time. 495 00:22:41.141 --> 00:22:46.605 Like you can't have so many of those versions of what you could have gotten if you were just listening with active listening. 496 00:22:46.685 --> 00:22:47.526 So great point. 497 00:22:48.366 --> 00:22:48.627 Eric, 498 00:22:49.147 --> 00:22:51.789 we should create a hoodie consent over consensus. 499 00:22:53.870 --> 00:22:55.271 I like it. 500 00:22:55.272 --> 00:22:57.833 So this is my first time meeting you for anyone listening in. 501 00:22:58.293 --> 00:23:03.617 And I can quickly tell how awesome it would be to have you as the leader of the PMM team. 502 00:23:04.381 --> 00:23:04.901 But I'm curious, 503 00:23:04.921 --> 00:23:08.523 what do you miss about being an IC and doing some of that IC work? 504 00:23:08.603 --> 00:23:10.965 That's a good question. 505 00:23:11.065 --> 00:23:11.725 It's hard. 506 00:23:11.965 --> 00:23:13.286 I'm fortunate that the team, 507 00:23:13.766 --> 00:23:14.587 they still will... 508 00:23:14.947 --> 00:23:20.610 I think they still want me to be involved in more of the IC work because they asked for my opinion on things. 509 00:23:20.611 --> 00:23:22.251 They trust their judgment through and through. 510 00:23:22.351 --> 00:23:30.055 But I think what I miss most is the hand-to-hand combat with creating messaging documents. 511 00:23:30.215 --> 00:23:33.797 I loved doing customer listening tours and just 512 00:23:34.017 --> 00:23:38.239 like asking questions and putting together those briefs myself. 513 00:23:38.740 --> 00:23:41.261 But now I have a fantastic team, 514 00:23:41.361 --> 00:23:42.882 highly competent, 515 00:23:42.922 --> 00:23:45.383 wonderful humans who do this day to day. 516 00:23:45.944 --> 00:23:50.626 So I trust them fully to take that and have been able to share some of my frameworks, 517 00:23:50.746 --> 00:23:51.367 war scars, 518 00:23:51.427 --> 00:23:52.407 lessons along the way. 519 00:23:52.547 --> 00:23:53.408 But yeah, 520 00:23:53.588 --> 00:23:55.409 I still certainly engage with customers, 521 00:23:55.449 --> 00:23:58.470 but to the degree where they're in the rooms, 522 00:23:58.611 --> 00:24:02.793 having those one-to-one conversations and follow-up conversations. 523 00:24:03.093 --> 00:24:04.234 We have a lot of exciting, 524 00:24:04.454 --> 00:24:05.895 I know it's very timely, 525 00:24:05.975 --> 00:24:10.438 like agentic prototypes going on right now and just testing really quickly, 526 00:24:10.698 --> 00:24:12.900 getting those design cycles in place. 527 00:24:12.920 --> 00:24:14.461 I know the team is learning a lot. 528 00:24:14.601 --> 00:24:17.023 And what a time to be a product marketer. 529 00:24:17.063 --> 00:24:20.205 We're able to be at the forefront of groundbreaking technology, 530 00:24:20.665 --> 00:24:22.807 having customers use it for the first time. 531 00:24:22.847 --> 00:24:25.008 And so it's really cool to see. 532 00:24:25.188 --> 00:24:26.870 I do miss being in those conversations. 533 00:24:26.871 --> 00:24:28.631 I'm hearing a lot about how it's going, 534 00:24:29.091 --> 00:24:29.992 but I do miss that, 535 00:24:30.292 --> 00:24:30.952 I would say. 536 00:24:31.473 --> 00:24:31.753 But yeah. 537 00:24:33.657 --> 00:24:34.857 Going back to 2019, 538 00:24:34.897 --> 00:24:38.218 when you made the transition to leadership, 539 00:24:38.758 --> 00:24:43.180 what was one growing pain that you just had to go through from 540 00:24:43.620 --> 00:24:45.180 IC to leadership? 541 00:24:47.421 --> 00:24:49.902 It sounds maybe easier said than done, 542 00:24:49.962 --> 00:24:51.422 but delegation is hard. 543 00:24:52.182 --> 00:24:56.643 When you care about something so much and you have a point of view on how it should be done, 544 00:24:57.144 --> 00:25:00.485 it took me a while to figure out how to share my Legos, 545 00:25:00.565 --> 00:25:01.165 if you will, 546 00:25:01.405 --> 00:25:01.785 and 547 00:25:02.554 --> 00:25:02.834 Yeah, 548 00:25:03.034 --> 00:25:04.555 I wasn't good at it in the beginning. 549 00:25:04.635 --> 00:25:08.276 Like it was something it would come in my inbox or in a Slack DM and yeah, 550 00:25:08.277 --> 00:25:08.656 I'll do it. 551 00:25:08.736 --> 00:25:08.856 Hey, 552 00:25:08.896 --> 00:25:09.316 I got it. 553 00:25:09.676 --> 00:25:10.877 But it wasn't helpful for me. 554 00:25:11.117 --> 00:25:12.417 It wasn't helpful for my team. 555 00:25:12.477 --> 00:25:18.779 It didn't give them the opportunity to stretch and grow in the same way that like I have to afford as a leader. 556 00:25:18.919 --> 00:25:22.280 So delegation was not easy for me in the beginning. 557 00:25:22.400 --> 00:25:29.002 And I definitely had to get actively better at it and ask other people in my internal board of advisors. 558 00:25:29.402 --> 00:25:32.264 How do they manage delegation and get comfortable with it? 559 00:25:32.784 --> 00:25:35.866 I would say I'm much better at it now and knowing when to delegate, 560 00:25:35.867 --> 00:25:40.849 when to bring someone in and be their champion for maybe it's something that they've never done before. 561 00:25:40.909 --> 00:25:44.291 Like how can I shape that learning growth curve for them? 562 00:25:44.611 --> 00:25:48.413 Something that has been a big part of my career is pricing and packaging. 563 00:25:48.953 --> 00:25:50.915 It's very difficult to get right. 564 00:25:51.095 --> 00:25:51.855 And something that 565 00:25:52.295 --> 00:25:56.298 I think is a big differentiator for who I am as my PMM makeup, 566 00:25:56.418 --> 00:25:56.598 but- 567 00:25:57.022 --> 00:26:00.645 Giving that away in my team recently was a big change. 568 00:26:00.705 --> 00:26:03.307 And the person who is now owning it is crushing it. 569 00:26:03.387 --> 00:26:04.087 And I'm like, 570 00:26:04.088 --> 00:26:05.649 if you do nothing else in product marketing, 571 00:26:05.669 --> 00:26:07.690 you are excellent at pricing and packaging. 572 00:26:07.710 --> 00:26:08.411 Keep doing that. 573 00:26:08.471 --> 00:26:13.194 So it's only by sharing that you are able to grow and help others along the way. 574 00:26:13.835 --> 00:26:14.555 How did that feel? 575 00:26:14.615 --> 00:26:16.497 What was that like when you realized like, 576 00:26:17.477 --> 00:26:17.637 yep, 577 00:26:17.878 --> 00:26:18.078 this, 578 00:26:18.258 --> 00:26:19.179 I got to give this up. 579 00:26:21.020 --> 00:26:23.502 So it's something where at the end of it, 580 00:26:23.802 --> 00:26:28.866 You feel proud that you were able to see attributes or skills in someone that, 581 00:26:28.886 --> 00:26:29.187 you know, 582 00:26:29.247 --> 00:26:30.668 they have the making to be. 583 00:26:31.669 --> 00:26:32.530 Like excellent, 584 00:26:32.570 --> 00:26:34.011 not only at product marketing, 585 00:26:34.071 --> 00:26:38.154 but this very important specialization that not everyone wants to do. 586 00:26:38.615 --> 00:26:39.576 There's some people that are like, 587 00:26:39.716 --> 00:26:39.956 Oh, 588 00:26:40.216 --> 00:26:41.958 like that's it's hard. 589 00:26:41.978 --> 00:26:44.900 Or there's a lot of opinions flying around about pricing and packaging, 590 00:26:45.521 --> 00:26:46.782 or maybe at a business, 591 00:26:46.783 --> 00:26:47.682 it's just an afterthought. 592 00:26:47.722 --> 00:26:49.684 But at the businesses I've been at, 593 00:26:49.685 --> 00:26:51.746 it's been like core to how we work. 594 00:26:52.406 --> 00:26:53.367 But to answer your question, 595 00:26:53.447 --> 00:26:57.070 definitely proud at the end of the day that someone was able to own it. 596 00:26:57.190 --> 00:26:59.252 They've gotten more recognition and visibility. 597 00:26:59.332 --> 00:27:03.476 They're now the go-to and source of truth and expert within the business. 598 00:27:04.077 --> 00:27:11.563 And I certainly am still involved and I'm helping to shape how it continues to ebb and flow our business right now. 599 00:27:11.704 --> 00:27:13.445 We're going through a lot of M&A. 600 00:27:13.765 --> 00:27:18.410 And so the impact on pricing and packaging from an M&A standpoint is massive. 601 00:27:19.122 --> 00:27:21.243 We're navigating these things together. 602 00:27:21.503 --> 00:27:22.163 It's new for me. 603 00:27:22.684 --> 00:27:23.984 It's new for the individual. 604 00:27:24.104 --> 00:27:30.067 So being co-pilots and a specialization within the team and knowing she's got it, 605 00:27:30.147 --> 00:27:31.107 but I'm here to help. 606 00:27:31.187 --> 00:27:32.888 And you're certainly going to skin our knees. 607 00:27:32.948 --> 00:27:34.848 But to go back to the analogy, 608 00:27:34.908 --> 00:27:36.329 there's no patient on the table. 609 00:27:36.429 --> 00:27:39.490 It is just software and we're going to figure it out. 610 00:27:39.670 --> 00:27:39.971 But yeah, 611 00:27:40.111 --> 00:27:44.052 I was ultimately proud and had all the confidence in the world in this person. 612 00:27:44.152 --> 00:27:46.013 And I think if you have that energy, 613 00:27:46.353 --> 00:27:47.514 like you're going to be successful. 614 00:27:47.534 --> 00:27:48.354 There's no other option. 615 00:27:49.790 --> 00:27:50.250 I love it. 616 00:27:50.570 --> 00:27:50.991 I love it. 617 00:27:51.031 --> 00:27:55.592 And shout out to the young lady who's out there killing it with the pricing on your team. 618 00:27:56.353 --> 00:27:58.654 Totally echo what you said. 619 00:27:59.054 --> 00:28:00.734 Pricing has always been the big, 620 00:28:00.854 --> 00:28:01.255 scary, 621 00:28:01.335 --> 00:28:04.156 hairy monster that I've wanted to touch, 622 00:28:04.276 --> 00:28:06.017 but it still gives me the diabetes. 623 00:28:06.877 --> 00:28:14.720 It is not easy to give that up and trust is going to be one of the biggest things that dictate whether you can pick up a project like that. 624 00:28:15.120 --> 00:28:17.841 I think it would be really helpful if we could 625 00:28:19.582 --> 00:28:21.883 people in terms of upward management, 626 00:28:22.484 --> 00:28:24.545 in terms of building that trust with you? 627 00:28:25.346 --> 00:28:28.227 And what are those things that you feel like they can come in and do, 628 00:28:29.008 --> 00:28:29.969 whether it's short term, 629 00:28:30.049 --> 00:28:30.509 long term, 630 00:28:30.549 --> 00:28:30.969 whatever. 631 00:28:31.049 --> 00:28:31.349 So it's, 632 00:28:31.389 --> 00:28:31.610 hey, 633 00:28:31.611 --> 00:28:32.130 you know what, 634 00:28:32.330 --> 00:28:34.351 we have I have this thing in my lap, 635 00:28:35.472 --> 00:28:36.393 I'm ready to give it up. 636 00:28:36.633 --> 00:28:37.113 Because that's, 637 00:28:37.293 --> 00:28:38.494 it's not a one way street. 638 00:28:39.642 --> 00:28:43.647 With my team members or even aspiring PMMs, 639 00:28:43.666 --> 00:28:46.690 I do a lot of mentorship outside of the PMM community. 640 00:28:47.131 --> 00:28:48.252 And again, 641 00:28:48.291 --> 00:28:51.096 there's different flavors of what product marketing looks like. 642 00:28:51.190 --> 00:28:54.979 So raising your hand and putting a stake in the ground, 643 00:28:55.096 --> 00:28:56.955 like this is where I want to grow my career. 644 00:28:57.486 --> 00:29:04.861 I've had people on my team who had the option to stay in what we define as core product marketing. 645 00:29:04.908 --> 00:29:07.705 And so you're map to a product area. 646 00:29:08.002 --> 00:29:09.018 And that peak. 647 00:29:09.258 --> 00:29:16.046 product manager is your co-pilot and you're running launches like traditional product marketing and then there's solution product marketing which 648 00:29:16.405 --> 00:29:35.464 I think some business will have solution and industry marketing and this area of the team is taking the fabric of product and mapping it by segment by persona by industry and so there was a time where someone had the option what do you want to do and I was not precious about which track but they made the choice. 649 00:29:35.510 --> 00:29:38.448 They wanted to do solution and it's giving kind of 650 00:29:38.654 --> 00:29:40.576 the people the keys to raise their hand, 651 00:29:40.676 --> 00:29:42.117 say they want to go down this route. 652 00:29:42.198 --> 00:29:44.539 And my job as a leader is to support them, 653 00:29:44.602 --> 00:29:45.520 be an advocate, 654 00:29:45.563 --> 00:29:46.543 get out of their way. 655 00:29:47.141 --> 00:29:50.485 I think a lot of the times it's the business that will be in the way. 656 00:29:50.727 --> 00:29:55.563 And I have to be the one to help remove that and shield them so they can focus. 657 00:29:55.610 --> 00:29:56.156 So again, 658 00:29:56.235 --> 00:29:59.032 like just having the individual raise their hand, 659 00:29:59.141 --> 00:30:01.532 have conviction that this is something that they want to try. 660 00:30:02.032 --> 00:30:03.375 And maybe it won't work out, 661 00:30:03.453 --> 00:30:03.938 but hey, 662 00:30:04.000 --> 00:30:05.438 we'll have explored something new. 663 00:30:05.922 --> 00:30:08.125 It's very low risk in terms of 664 00:30:08.278 --> 00:30:11.041 putting yourself out there to try a new discipline. 665 00:30:11.481 --> 00:30:13.344 And there's only upside in my opinion. 666 00:30:13.504 --> 00:30:14.485 So again, 667 00:30:14.524 --> 00:30:16.406 I think to the ICs listening, 668 00:30:16.446 --> 00:30:17.711 it's being very vocal, 669 00:30:17.805 --> 00:30:20.406 like you have to advocate for yourself and what you want, 670 00:30:20.570 --> 00:30:23.696 you have to keep your hands on your career wheel at all times, 671 00:30:24.117 --> 00:30:25.149 let your manager know, 672 00:30:25.430 --> 00:30:27.477 and it's their job to make it happen for you. 673 00:30:27.478 --> 00:30:28.758 And maybe they can't right away, 674 00:30:28.946 --> 00:30:32.899 but making sure that your intentions are known and you're raising hands, 675 00:30:33.102 --> 00:30:36.570 your hand for that is going to help them find that opportunity for you. 676 00:30:37.062 --> 00:30:41.106 in the short term or help you network with others who may have experience there in the short term. 677 00:30:42.649 --> 00:30:44.528 Let's take it back to 2017. 678 00:30:44.529 --> 00:30:44.649 Oh, 679 00:30:44.708 --> 00:30:44.872 Eric, 680 00:30:44.873 --> 00:30:45.090 go ahead. 681 00:30:45.091 --> 00:30:46.512 I didn't mean to cut you off. 682 00:30:46.513 --> 00:30:46.590 Yeah, 683 00:30:46.591 --> 00:30:46.669 no, 684 00:30:46.692 --> 00:30:47.036 it's all good. 685 00:30:47.037 --> 00:30:48.997 I want to see if maybe a little bit more there, 686 00:30:48.998 --> 00:30:50.317 because I'm totally in on that. 687 00:30:50.372 --> 00:30:52.661 I'm totally bought in on you got to raise your hand. 688 00:30:52.676 --> 00:30:54.958 And if your boss doesn't know what you want to do, 689 00:30:55.192 --> 00:30:58.083 how are they going to put you in a position to do that stuff? 690 00:30:58.864 --> 00:31:02.473 Do you have any other tips around the actual trust building aspect yourself? 691 00:31:02.520 --> 00:31:02.723 Like, 692 00:31:02.724 --> 00:31:03.223 of course, 693 00:31:03.661 --> 00:31:03.942 let's say 694 00:31:04.411 --> 00:31:05.911 I'm in here for 60 days. 695 00:31:06.534 --> 00:31:07.294 And I'm just like, 696 00:31:07.314 --> 00:31:07.774 Amanda, 697 00:31:08.635 --> 00:31:09.234 come on, 698 00:31:09.334 --> 00:31:11.855 give me that pricing exercise I asked you about. 699 00:31:12.555 --> 00:31:12.816 I don't, 700 00:31:13.336 --> 00:31:13.996 maybe it's just me, 701 00:31:14.117 --> 00:31:19.773 but I probably need to do a lot of work in that 60 days outside of just raising my hand. 702 00:31:20.680 --> 00:31:27.461 Do you have anything particularly that you feel like people should do to really start building that trust with their head of product marketing? 703 00:31:27.539 --> 00:31:28.976 So when the time comes, 704 00:31:29.383 --> 00:31:29.633 it is, 705 00:31:29.695 --> 00:31:30.258 you know what? 706 00:31:30.742 --> 00:31:34.508 I remember they told me they want this and I trust them to go get it done. 707 00:31:35.518 --> 00:31:46.461 That's such a good call out on just like the trust card and making sure you come in with an idea of what you want to achieve and aligning that to the business goals. 708 00:31:46.524 --> 00:31:52.376 Like it should be clear what the business is aiming to work towards in a calendar year, 709 00:31:52.626 --> 00:31:53.235 a quarter, 710 00:31:53.876 --> 00:31:54.126 you know, 711 00:31:54.127 --> 00:31:54.938 in a few weeks. 712 00:31:55.422 --> 00:32:00.391 And so if you can identify where you can make some quick wins and impact and 713 00:32:00.906 --> 00:32:02.989 stay accountable for what you've signed up for, 714 00:32:03.048 --> 00:32:06.411 the more you do that and are showing incremental value, 715 00:32:06.892 --> 00:32:14.423 the more your leader will begin to identify not only like those wins as like excellent showcases of the work, 716 00:32:14.821 --> 00:32:18.767 but sign you up for more and more of what you want to do. 717 00:32:18.907 --> 00:32:23.970 There's certainly a two by two of different areas where we get energy and that's something for the leader. 718 00:32:24.734 --> 00:32:26.275 the individual to calibrate on. 719 00:32:26.396 --> 00:32:27.377 You're delivering wins. 720 00:32:27.396 --> 00:32:28.299 You're delivering impact. 721 00:32:28.318 --> 00:32:28.597 Great. 722 00:32:28.638 --> 00:32:28.799 Like, 723 00:32:28.800 --> 00:32:30.342 where do you want to be doing more? 724 00:32:30.400 --> 00:32:31.881 Where do you want to be doing less? 725 00:32:31.943 --> 00:32:35.701 Where can we bring your best energy to the business? 726 00:32:35.763 --> 00:32:37.724 And so it should be an ongoing conversation, 727 00:32:37.849 --> 00:32:42.154 but with focus and incremental impact along the way. 728 00:32:42.216 --> 00:32:43.029 And I'll be quick on this, 729 00:32:43.045 --> 00:32:44.935 but I shared recently on LinkedIn as well. 730 00:32:44.951 --> 00:32:46.779 I run my teams on agile marketing. 731 00:32:47.092 --> 00:32:48.138 We do two-week sprints. 732 00:32:48.201 --> 00:32:48.920 So we're 733 00:32:49.542 --> 00:32:50.443 every two weeks, 734 00:32:50.503 --> 00:32:52.565 very tied into our cadence, 735 00:32:52.606 --> 00:32:53.625 what we're producing. 736 00:32:53.664 --> 00:33:02.531 And it's easy for me to see and easy for everyone on the team to cross-pollinate on where folks are being effective and where there's density on areas of interest. 737 00:33:02.532 --> 00:33:10.625 So I think leaders who adopt that sort of framework as well will allow for organically more opportunities to shine through for their team members. 738 00:33:12.391 --> 00:33:12.610 And 739 00:33:13.266 --> 00:33:18.656 ICPMM, what was a really good piece of career advice? 740 00:33:19.038 --> 00:33:30.599 got back then that you might still be seeing happening today but shouldn't be relevant anymore 741 00:33:31.419 --> 00:33:35.499 I would say something that I struggled with being an individual contributor, 742 00:33:35.780 --> 00:33:36.761 founding PMM, 743 00:33:37.722 --> 00:33:40.480 was asking for permission a lot. 744 00:33:40.519 --> 00:33:43.222 Like I would wait to get permission to do something. 745 00:33:43.722 --> 00:33:44.925 And I think more and more, 746 00:33:46.081 --> 00:33:47.745 that advice is not relevant. 747 00:33:47.777 --> 00:33:50.480 And it's something that maybe some others have been told, 748 00:33:50.527 --> 00:33:52.136 don't ask for permission, 749 00:33:52.605 --> 00:33:54.667 just settle for forgiveness after the fact. 750 00:33:55.419 --> 00:33:56.580 That was always just really hard. 751 00:33:56.581 --> 00:33:57.441 It just didn't feel right, 752 00:33:57.482 --> 00:33:58.722 especially founding. 753 00:33:58.843 --> 00:33:59.882 It's so precious, 754 00:33:59.944 --> 00:34:02.726 the remit and how you want to mold it over time. 755 00:34:03.269 --> 00:34:05.050 But now I think it is more of this, 756 00:34:05.308 --> 00:34:06.667 let's continue to try, 757 00:34:07.151 --> 00:34:07.667 fail fast, 758 00:34:07.714 --> 00:34:08.448 learn faster, 759 00:34:08.855 --> 00:34:10.355 ship value in increments. 760 00:34:10.456 --> 00:34:14.245 And just back to the consent versus consensus, 761 00:34:14.401 --> 00:34:17.105 show initiative and just trust yourself. 762 00:34:17.167 --> 00:34:20.417 And so it's more trusting your instincts, 763 00:34:20.527 --> 00:34:22.730 not waiting to be told things should be done. 764 00:34:23.519 --> 00:34:29.925 I think that more of that advice to the product marketing team especially is the sage advice versus permission. 765 00:34:30.546 --> 00:34:33.609 I also think that there's just a lot of, 766 00:34:33.710 --> 00:34:34.452 in general, 767 00:34:34.749 --> 00:34:38.117 like coming into the role as an ICE founding, 768 00:34:38.195 --> 00:34:38.796 PMM, 769 00:34:39.335 --> 00:34:41.054 you're reading like April Dunford, 770 00:34:41.179 --> 00:34:41.960 all of these books, 771 00:34:41.976 --> 00:34:42.898 these frameworks, 772 00:34:42.991 --> 00:34:45.820 and are they all relevant for you right now? 773 00:34:45.960 --> 00:34:46.695 Probably not. 774 00:34:46.820 --> 00:34:48.741 There's probably pockets that are, 775 00:34:49.210 --> 00:34:52.663 but things are changing so quickly that even some of and 776 00:34:53.271 --> 00:34:53.651 Not to 777 00:34:53.991 --> 00:34:57.233 April's our girl and she'll always be like the go of product marketing. 778 00:34:57.311 --> 00:34:57.514 But 779 00:34:58.252 --> 00:35:02.350 I think we can get stuck in this echo chamber of this is the framework that you need to use. 780 00:35:02.373 --> 00:35:05.897 And this is the tiering model that you need to use. 781 00:35:05.951 --> 00:35:07.592 And if you're setting up the function, 782 00:35:07.631 --> 00:35:09.881 this is exactly like the checklist. 783 00:35:10.334 --> 00:35:11.272 And that's just not the case. 784 00:35:11.287 --> 00:35:13.303 Like it's so fluid anymore. 785 00:35:13.412 --> 00:35:17.053 So there's Amanda from 2017 and how I set up my function. 786 00:35:17.115 --> 00:35:20.162 And I am contrarian with a lot of her beliefs right now, 787 00:35:20.319 --> 00:35:20.850 honestly. 788 00:35:21.381 --> 00:35:21.834 And I think... 789 00:35:22.179 --> 00:35:24.501 with some of my peers that are consultants right now, 790 00:35:24.763 --> 00:35:27.946 I'm having open conversations like with how much is changing and with 791 00:35:28.524 --> 00:35:32.626 AI supplementing a lot of the 101 that we built frameworks on in the past. 792 00:35:32.688 --> 00:35:33.267 Is it right? 793 00:35:33.329 --> 00:35:33.993 Is it correct? 794 00:35:34.290 --> 00:35:34.970 I don't know, 795 00:35:35.048 --> 00:35:36.876 but I think we should be asking those questions. 796 00:35:38.235 --> 00:35:39.782 It's a very valid question to bring up. 797 00:35:40.079 --> 00:35:44.095 I think we had this conversation a few months back about 798 00:35:44.860 --> 00:35:46.407 AI expertise, 799 00:35:46.485 --> 00:35:49.548 and one example sticks out to me really clear as day. 800 00:35:50.719 --> 00:35:52.261 Someone posted another day, 801 00:35:52.320 --> 00:35:52.762 they were like, 802 00:35:53.082 --> 00:35:53.201 hey, 803 00:35:53.301 --> 00:35:56.285 I built this PM dashboard using AI, 804 00:35:56.785 --> 00:35:59.391 comment AI for access to it. 805 00:36:00.609 --> 00:36:01.211 And 806 00:36:01.570 --> 00:36:05.695 I see the guys laughing because I think we were all thinking the same line of thought here. 807 00:36:06.617 --> 00:36:08.851 But what was really tough about that is like, 808 00:36:08.852 --> 00:36:09.477 don't get me wrong, 809 00:36:09.570 --> 00:36:11.195 it could be a very incredible tool. 810 00:36:12.086 --> 00:36:16.086 But imagine if we were to use that and you take this on a leadership call and they're like, 811 00:36:16.648 --> 00:36:17.945 what is the inner workings of this? 812 00:36:18.414 --> 00:36:19.945 How did you come up with this output? 813 00:36:21.843 --> 00:36:22.504 And you're just like, 814 00:36:23.905 --> 00:36:24.866 I learned it on LinkedIn. 815 00:36:25.067 --> 00:36:26.249 I don't know what went into it. 816 00:36:26.268 --> 00:36:28.010 I don't know the process. 817 00:36:28.030 --> 00:36:29.631 I don't know the checks and balances. 818 00:36:30.155 --> 00:36:35.077 So I think that's where one example where AI could be hurting us in the foot, 819 00:36:35.139 --> 00:36:36.014 going back to what you said. 820 00:36:38.077 --> 00:36:38.295 Yeah, 821 00:36:38.624 --> 00:36:43.702 we're definitely all very excited to replicate what we're seeing and hearing. 822 00:36:43.717 --> 00:36:44.405 But is it right? 823 00:36:44.452 --> 00:36:46.405 Is it a good use of time? 824 00:36:46.874 --> 00:36:47.389 I'm not sure. 825 00:36:47.592 --> 00:36:49.389 I think there's certainly... 826 00:36:49.803 --> 00:36:54.106 And just going back to a product roadmap and what customers are asking for, 827 00:36:54.649 --> 00:36:56.149 I don't think it's AI. 828 00:36:56.391 --> 00:36:59.876 It's like the core product of what the software was built for, 829 00:36:59.915 --> 00:37:00.634 for the most part. 830 00:37:00.696 --> 00:37:04.235 AI is great if it can help you get to better outcomes. 831 00:37:04.321 --> 00:37:05.376 But yeah, 832 00:37:05.720 --> 00:37:06.337 it's a good question. 833 00:37:06.352 --> 00:37:11.618 I think we're all learning and in some cases leaning in or on the sidelines, 834 00:37:11.665 --> 00:37:12.946 just staying curious. 835 00:37:13.009 --> 00:37:14.587 So that's all I ask within my team. 836 00:37:14.665 --> 00:37:15.524 Let's stay curious. 837 00:37:15.915 --> 00:37:16.462 Let's certainly, 838 00:37:16.696 --> 00:37:17.852 we're going to be AI illiterate. 839 00:37:17.853 --> 00:37:18.493 You have to be. 840 00:37:18.618 --> 00:37:18.774 but 841 00:37:19.055 --> 00:37:20.717 Let's be smart about our application. 842 00:37:20.857 --> 00:37:22.059 It's not a silver bullet. 843 00:37:22.238 --> 00:37:23.420 And at the end of the day, 844 00:37:24.201 --> 00:37:25.982 it's what's going to serve our customers best. 845 00:37:26.123 --> 00:37:27.767 And we're selling to humans. 846 00:37:27.783 --> 00:37:28.588 It's human to human. 847 00:37:30.049 --> 00:37:32.947 You can have agentic kind of negotiations happening, 848 00:37:33.049 --> 00:37:35.189 but it's still at the human level at the end of the day. 849 00:37:35.908 --> 00:37:36.033 Yeah. 850 00:37:36.049 --> 00:37:40.939 I think it's like you need to master the foundation before you want to make redundant stuff less redundant. 851 00:37:41.221 --> 00:37:44.174 Like how can you optimize it within your context in your reality. 852 00:37:45.674 --> 00:37:46.143 Absolutely. 853 00:37:47.555 --> 00:37:48.456 I think like you guys are saying, 854 00:37:48.457 --> 00:37:49.615 it's like that expertise first. 855 00:37:49.755 --> 00:37:50.816 I don't know about you all, 856 00:37:51.335 --> 00:37:55.158 but I wouldn't hire a contractor and remodel my home. 857 00:37:57.279 --> 00:37:57.833 Don't worry about it, 858 00:37:57.834 --> 00:37:58.099 guys. 859 00:37:58.560 --> 00:37:58.997 I got you. 860 00:37:59.177 --> 00:38:01.482 I've never done this before. 861 00:38:04.294 --> 00:38:04.497 Yeah, 862 00:38:04.701 --> 00:38:04.841 yeah. 863 00:38:05.044 --> 00:38:05.685 A hundred percent. 864 00:38:07.419 --> 00:38:15.107 I have a question. 865 00:38:15.703 --> 00:38:16.725 Chat GPT this. 866 00:38:16.845 --> 00:38:17.226 We're good. 867 00:38:18.528 --> 00:38:19.050 Oh my God. 868 00:38:20.310 --> 00:38:20.954 I got this. 869 00:38:22.614 --> 00:38:22.935 Go ahead, 870 00:38:22.954 --> 00:38:23.458 Gav. 871 00:38:23.459 --> 00:38:29.747 So what we're hearing right now with the market of product marketing managers is there's a lot of people that are taking the route. 872 00:38:30.454 --> 00:38:31.255 to go fractional, 873 00:38:31.355 --> 00:38:32.296 to go consultant. 874 00:38:33.138 --> 00:38:39.563 But something that we also can realize and we heard as emerging chatter is a lot of 875 00:38:40.024 --> 00:38:41.321 VP of product marketing, 876 00:38:41.946 --> 00:38:42.626 VP PMM, 877 00:38:42.884 --> 00:38:43.884 they don't want to become 878 00:38:44.392 --> 00:38:44.649 CMO. 879 00:38:45.626 --> 00:38:46.673 And we're unsure about it, 880 00:38:47.063 --> 00:38:49.751 especially in the product marketing leadership land. 881 00:38:49.829 --> 00:38:51.392 Is that something that you heard as well? 882 00:38:51.501 --> 00:38:53.892 And can you help us navigate or answer this? 883 00:38:53.954 --> 00:38:54.610 Because I'm still, 884 00:38:55.032 --> 00:38:56.001 I'm blanking right now, 885 00:38:56.063 --> 00:38:56.876 trying to understand. 886 00:38:58.686 --> 00:39:01.208 the differences and why would you not take that 887 00:39:02.208 --> 00:39:05.513 VP of product marketing position towards the chief marketing officer? 888 00:39:08.435 --> 00:39:08.974 I wonder, 889 00:39:09.334 --> 00:39:22.443 certainly there's different flavors of leadership and one can argue you can be a VP or a product marketing leader and still have a fantastic career and never want to be in the C-suite. 890 00:39:22.990 --> 00:39:23.724 Product marketing, 891 00:39:23.771 --> 00:39:24.849 I think you can take it, 892 00:39:25.208 --> 00:39:27.240 you could go into product leadership, 893 00:39:27.412 --> 00:39:28.177 right you could 894 00:39:28.598 --> 00:39:30.820 take it through to marketing leadership, 895 00:39:31.041 --> 00:39:31.922 ops leadership. 896 00:39:32.521 --> 00:39:34.725 I have heard among some of my peers, 897 00:39:34.744 --> 00:39:36.404 a lot of them are going fractional. 898 00:39:36.967 --> 00:39:37.787 I think there's, 899 00:39:38.428 --> 00:39:40.271 depending on the need of the business, 900 00:39:40.592 --> 00:39:43.951 there's certain ways that product marketing can ebb and flow. 901 00:39:44.490 --> 00:39:45.451 Your early stage, 902 00:39:45.467 --> 00:39:50.514 you're doing product market fit and making sure you're connecting with the market that you've defined. 903 00:39:51.154 --> 00:39:52.248 At later stage, 904 00:39:52.249 --> 00:39:53.139 it's a lot of M&A. 905 00:39:53.482 --> 00:39:55.123 So we're integrating technologies, 906 00:39:55.139 --> 00:39:56.170 we're merging markets, 907 00:39:56.186 --> 00:39:57.092 we're introducing. 908 00:39:57.402 --> 00:39:59.004 products landing and expanding. 909 00:40:00.385 --> 00:40:01.628 For me personally, 910 00:40:01.807 --> 00:40:05.151 I do want to ride it out to CMO land. 911 00:40:05.370 --> 00:40:07.815 And that's always been something I've had conviction in. 912 00:40:07.893 --> 00:40:13.081 And I've had the opportunity to try on different marketing specializations throughout my career. 913 00:40:13.135 --> 00:40:14.081 I've done content, 914 00:40:14.143 --> 00:40:14.753 demand gen, 915 00:40:15.284 --> 00:40:15.800 customer, 916 00:40:15.862 --> 00:40:16.315 digital, 917 00:40:16.800 --> 00:40:18.237 product marketing was always the most fun. 918 00:40:18.346 --> 00:40:18.737 And I was like, 919 00:40:18.768 --> 00:40:19.331 if I'm gonna, 920 00:40:20.003 --> 00:40:20.284 again, 921 00:40:20.378 --> 00:40:21.300 ride it to CMO, 922 00:40:21.550 --> 00:40:25.003 where am I going to have the most fun for the years that I am in this discipline? 923 00:40:25.258 --> 00:40:26.459 product marketing through and through. 924 00:40:26.578 --> 00:40:31.480 So I think it just depends certainly on the puzzles you want to solve in your day to day. 925 00:40:32.101 --> 00:40:32.699 And for me, 926 00:40:32.898 --> 00:40:35.722 being a CMO is definitely the ultimate puzzle, 927 00:40:35.738 --> 00:40:37.543 but it has to be within the right company. 928 00:40:37.644 --> 00:40:38.019 Certainly, 929 00:40:38.222 --> 00:40:46.676 I think a product led growth company is a great layup for obviously a product marketing to leader to grow into doesn't necessarily have to be PLG. 930 00:40:46.926 --> 00:40:52.426 But given where we sit and where our thought cycles are most often wired, 931 00:40:52.707 --> 00:40:53.269 that's a great. 932 00:40:53.446 --> 00:40:55.647 opportunity to leverage and move into. 933 00:40:56.407 --> 00:40:56.727 But yeah, 934 00:40:56.766 --> 00:40:57.608 I think it's interesting. 935 00:40:57.628 --> 00:41:05.850 And I'm observing the same thing where a lot of people moving into fractional and it's a great time to be fractional gig economy is up and on the rise. 936 00:41:05.905 --> 00:41:10.507 And if PMMs can be surgical and help companies and certain disciplines, 937 00:41:10.522 --> 00:41:15.397 whether they have a big launch and they need to hire some additional PMMs to help get ready for it, 938 00:41:15.554 --> 00:41:19.850 or it's a really early company and they need help with positioning and product market fit. 939 00:41:19.913 --> 00:41:20.413 That's great. 940 00:41:21.007 --> 00:41:21.288 I do. 941 00:41:21.914 --> 00:41:28.279 hoped more product marketers maintain their conviction in going into CMO. 942 00:41:29.002 --> 00:41:29.580 I'm biased, 943 00:41:29.603 --> 00:41:30.525 but I think 944 00:41:31.103 --> 00:41:34.447 I love those CMOs that I've met that have product marketing backgrounds as well. 945 00:41:34.564 --> 00:41:37.166 So definitely biased and I recognize that, 946 00:41:37.330 --> 00:41:42.111 but I would love to see more and more want to take it that far because it is a great, 947 00:41:42.173 --> 00:41:49.439 we have so much to flex on in what we've gained from market and ultimately chief market officer like we. 948 00:41:49.938 --> 00:41:51.259 own the market point of view, 949 00:41:51.480 --> 00:41:51.720 right? 950 00:41:51.760 --> 00:41:55.564 And so it's a great foundation for the business to have at the helm. 951 00:41:56.986 --> 00:41:57.204 Really, 952 00:41:57.306 --> 00:41:58.509 you mentioned about the, 953 00:41:59.110 --> 00:42:01.610 that principle of disagree and commit. 954 00:42:02.290 --> 00:42:06.814 And I think one challenge for us when we were at IC land is that leaders, 955 00:42:06.829 --> 00:42:09.532 like sometimes leadership for us would make decisions and we're like, 956 00:42:09.595 --> 00:42:10.314 oh my God, 957 00:42:10.315 --> 00:42:10.642 like why, 958 00:42:11.001 --> 00:42:12.032 why are we doing this? 959 00:42:12.236 --> 00:42:12.798 What's going on? 960 00:42:12.799 --> 00:42:18.142 So just for just like a dose of empathy for myself and just anyone that has listened, 961 00:42:18.143 --> 00:42:18.829 what is one 962 00:42:19.070 --> 00:42:35.061 thing that i see pmms don't know that pmm leaders like yourself are fighting eric said earlier outside of the team meeting that if they did know they'd be like oh my gosh amanda 963 00:42:35.374 --> 00:42:37.327 i was an i am so sorry 964 00:42:38.335 --> 00:42:38.535 Yeah. 965 00:42:38.956 --> 00:42:39.216 Wow. 966 00:42:39.457 --> 00:42:40.216 That's very real. 967 00:42:40.277 --> 00:42:46.181 There's so much that we have to make peace with and you'll see this is a hill that I will die on. 968 00:42:46.564 --> 00:42:55.337 So understanding those hills and what you're willing to really push for and where of all the things that you can try to problem solve, 969 00:42:55.338 --> 00:42:57.134 because I think a lot of us in product marketing, 970 00:42:57.135 --> 00:42:58.869 you just want to solve all the problems. 971 00:42:59.181 --> 00:43:01.119 I have so many people that they see something and 972 00:43:01.619 --> 00:43:03.478 I have to put the blinders on and like, 973 00:43:03.556 --> 00:43:04.775 is that a controllable? 974 00:43:05.251 --> 00:43:06.651 Or is it an uncontrollable? 975 00:43:06.712 --> 00:43:09.971 So I try to focus the team on what are our controllables? 976 00:43:10.034 --> 00:43:11.573 Because there's only so much, 977 00:43:11.811 --> 00:43:12.053 again, 978 00:43:12.054 --> 00:43:16.073 that we can impact and technology is changing so fast. 979 00:43:16.237 --> 00:43:19.495 Every business is doing their best to high growth, 980 00:43:19.510 --> 00:43:20.456 do more with less. 981 00:43:20.557 --> 00:43:26.542 And so to answer your question is just making sure that we're focused on what we can control those uncontrollables. 982 00:43:26.979 --> 00:43:31.932 I'll try to identify what battles like are really worth our litigation effort, 983 00:43:32.370 --> 00:43:34.292 for lack of a better way of saying it and 984 00:43:34.639 --> 00:43:34.939 I mean, 985 00:43:34.999 --> 00:43:36.882 they're the ones going back to the customer. 986 00:43:37.020 --> 00:43:38.302 They're what's best for the customer. 987 00:43:38.343 --> 00:43:40.884 If I have conviction that there's an area of product, 988 00:43:40.885 --> 00:43:41.606 for example, 989 00:43:41.645 --> 00:43:45.931 that has been gapped and we're going to events where it's still gapped, 990 00:43:46.032 --> 00:43:47.790 I need to make sure leadership is aware. 991 00:43:48.009 --> 00:43:48.313 Right. 992 00:43:48.415 --> 00:43:55.438 So it's my due diligence at the end of the day and making sure that what is best for customers are seen and heard. 993 00:43:55.954 --> 00:43:59.423 And then also making sure my team understands like what they can control, 994 00:43:59.501 --> 00:44:00.704 where they can drive impact. 995 00:44:00.720 --> 00:44:02.079 so they stay focused while I'm... 996 00:44:02.431 --> 00:44:09.133 making sure our senior leadership team also is keeping the hearts and minds of customers involved in their decision making. 997 00:44:09.273 --> 00:44:10.293 So again, 998 00:44:10.332 --> 00:44:11.832 pricing and packaging is a big one. 999 00:44:12.293 --> 00:44:12.730 Roadmap, 1000 00:44:12.832 --> 00:44:13.269 obviously, 1001 00:44:13.394 --> 00:44:14.433 prioritization, 1002 00:44:15.035 --> 00:44:16.512 and just messaging and positioning. 1003 00:44:16.652 --> 00:44:17.074 AI, 1004 00:44:17.176 --> 00:44:25.137 fighting the AI Mad Lib game is something that is a big one for our team and just trying to throttle and be smart to make sure there's resonance. 1005 00:44:25.277 --> 00:44:25.683 So yeah, 1006 00:44:25.980 --> 00:44:27.652 it's definitely an ongoing challenge, 1007 00:44:27.699 --> 00:44:27.871 though. 1008 00:44:32.839 --> 00:44:49.237 so thank you for that what a fire get what a fire guest guys we're already we're ramping up all of the quotes and the mantras that you've been saying i feel like oh yeah this is the next collection now i've got so many good ones after 1009 00:44:49.268 --> 00:44:59.783 this session i have to open up my windows just to air up the space from all this even dropping over here man well well done and so 1010 00:45:00.459 --> 00:45:00.839 Amanda, 1011 00:45:00.899 --> 00:45:02.940 this is where we like to wrap up the show. 1012 00:45:03.440 --> 00:45:09.921 But we do give you one more opportunity because a lot of us have some cool stuff that doesn't always make the airwave. 1013 00:45:09.983 --> 00:45:13.202 So other than just coming and finding you on LinkedIn, 1014 00:45:13.842 --> 00:45:19.178 is there any other places or activities you got coming up that you want people to know about? 1015 00:45:20.303 --> 00:45:20.428 Oh, 1016 00:45:20.585 --> 00:45:20.757 good. 1017 00:45:21.147 --> 00:45:21.257 So, 1018 00:45:21.507 --> 00:45:21.616 yeah, 1019 00:45:21.710 --> 00:45:22.350 LinkedIn land, 1020 00:45:22.381 --> 00:45:22.881 definitely. 1021 00:45:23.287 --> 00:45:25.951 I will share my unhinged product marketing takes, 1022 00:45:26.009 --> 00:45:30.052 some of my paintings I like to share just for funsies because we are whole people. 1023 00:45:30.415 --> 00:45:32.697 Work is only one part of the many roles that we play. 1024 00:45:34.181 --> 00:45:35.798 You can definitely connect with me there. 1025 00:45:36.376 --> 00:45:38.603 I am a big contributor on Sharebird. 1026 00:45:38.783 --> 00:45:41.501 I will host AMAs there pretty often. 1027 00:45:41.658 --> 00:45:46.626 So you can check out my Sharebird page for answers to any of my product marketing questions, 1028 00:45:46.673 --> 00:45:48.189 sign up for an upcoming session. 1029 00:45:48.673 --> 00:45:50.751 And those are the main ways to connect with me. 1030 00:45:50.876 --> 00:45:51.220 But yeah. 1031 00:45:51.371 --> 00:45:53.133 DMs are always open if you have a question. 1032 00:45:53.173 --> 00:45:54.073 I'm here to support, 1033 00:45:54.134 --> 00:45:57.776 care deeply about product marketing and where this craft is going, 1034 00:45:58.397 --> 00:46:02.964 shaped with you all here on the recording and then also listening in. 1035 00:46:03.081 --> 00:46:04.581 So consider me a friendly. 1036 00:46:04.808 --> 00:46:05.909 We're in this together for sure. 1037 00:46:07.581 --> 00:46:07.987 Let's go. 1038 00:46:08.550 --> 00:46:10.487 Another PMM friendly added. 1039 00:46:11.175 --> 00:46:11.472 Love it. 1040 00:46:12.565 --> 00:46:12.878 All right, 1041 00:46:12.909 --> 00:46:13.393 everybody. 1042 00:46:13.753 --> 00:46:14.034 Well, 1043 00:46:14.847 --> 00:46:16.800 this was a dope episode. 1044 00:46:17.097 --> 00:46:20.753 Hopefully you learned a lot and you had a lot of fun as well. 1045 00:46:21.079 --> 00:46:25.639 So we're going to wrap this up and call it another episode of 1046 00:46:26.299 --> 00:46:27.580 We're Not 1047 00:46:28.400 --> 00:46:30.162 Marketers. We'll catch you next time. 1048 00:46:30.163 --> 00:46:31.443 See you guys. 1049 00:46:32.021 --> 00:46:33.904 Thanks. 1050 00:46:33.905 --> 00:46:35.701 For listening to We're Not Marketers. 1051 00:46:36.303 --> 00:46:37.318 If you like what you heard, 1052 00:46:38.709 --> 00:46:39.865 review our podcast, 1053 00:46:40.162 --> 00:46:42.100 and share this episode with other PMMs. 1054 00:46:42.709 --> 00:46:44.006 Thanks again and see you soon.