WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.200 --> 00:00:02.861 It was actually 2022, 2 00:00:02.862 --> 00:00:03.901 beginning of 2022, 3 00:00:03.902 --> 00:00:04.541 and it was a very, 4 00:00:04.961 --> 00:00:06.162 it was a pretty warm spring, 5 00:00:06.782 --> 00:00:07.522 very warm actually. 6 00:00:07.582 --> 00:00:12.104 And the crop was actually growing away in February, 7 00:00:12.164 --> 00:00:12.464 March, 8 00:00:12.504 --> 00:00:15.325 and the sheep were on here on this 30 hectare field. 9 00:00:15.905 --> 00:00:18.625 The crop was probably maybe eight inches tall, 10 00:00:18.726 --> 00:00:19.486 a winter cereal. 11 00:00:20.966 --> 00:00:23.407 And we allowed them to graze it down to maybe two to three inches. 12 00:00:23.547 --> 00:00:24.047 And we did a, 13 00:00:24.487 --> 00:00:24.727 you know, 14 00:00:24.787 --> 00:00:25.588 we were quite strict. 15 00:00:25.589 --> 00:00:27.028 if they had some... 16 00:00:27.632 --> 00:00:43.239 fairly tight areas to graze and they were moved fairly regularly across the field anyway they came off the field and within within a week or two the crop um you know the last areas that they'd been on had totally recovered and was growing away and you 17 00:00:43.240 --> 00:00:56.344 know if you went on if you looked at that field two or three weeks after they'd left it you you wouldn't see any it just looked like a normal week ungrazed wheat crop but that crop um that field then yielded at harvest two tonnes a hectare more than any of the other 18 00:00:56.756 --> 00:01:17.589 winter wheat fields on the farm not noticeably different crop soil types had the same treatment otherwise but it just had grazing in the winter um early spring and it and it was incredible hi 19 00:01:17.649 --> 00:01:21.292 james welcome to the deep seed podcast thank you very much thank you for having me 20 00:01:21.792 --> 00:01:25.155 And thank you for hosting me for the last couple of days here in your beautiful, 21 00:01:25.295 --> 00:01:25.835 wonderful farm. 22 00:01:26.135 --> 00:01:26.436 Pleasure, 23 00:01:26.456 --> 00:01:26.836 Raphael. 24 00:01:27.036 --> 00:01:27.316 Pleasure. 25 00:01:29.118 --> 00:01:29.958 Maybe to get started, 26 00:01:29.959 --> 00:01:34.702 you could introduce yourself for the listeners and tell us a little bit about your personal journey. 27 00:01:35.542 --> 00:01:35.983 Sure. 28 00:01:36.303 --> 00:01:37.364 My name's James Busher. 29 00:01:38.064 --> 00:01:39.966 I'm 50 years old. 30 00:01:40.746 --> 00:01:46.531 I was born close to the farm here in Suffolk and grew up here. 31 00:01:47.031 --> 00:01:47.632 actually I 32 00:01:48.608 --> 00:01:49.309 In my 20s, 33 00:01:50.570 --> 00:01:53.833 my father never pressured me into coming back to the farm, 34 00:01:53.873 --> 00:01:57.115 so I decided to get away. 35 00:01:57.216 --> 00:01:58.296 I went and lived in Sydney, 36 00:01:58.357 --> 00:01:59.177 Australia for a year, 37 00:01:59.658 --> 00:02:00.739 worked in finance, 38 00:02:00.799 --> 00:02:07.845 and then came back to the UK and worked in London for a hedge fund for about eight years or so. 39 00:02:08.565 --> 00:02:10.247 I learned how to trade futures and options, 40 00:02:10.687 --> 00:02:13.049 quite niche work, 41 00:02:13.389 --> 00:02:15.411 lots of staring at screens and all this sort of stuff. 42 00:02:16.896 --> 00:02:19.777 Came to a point in around 2001, 43 00:02:19.778 --> 00:02:20.477 2002, 44 00:02:20.497 --> 00:02:20.997 when I just, 45 00:02:21.878 --> 00:02:25.038 I got fed up with London life and, 46 00:02:25.679 --> 00:02:25.799 well, 47 00:02:25.899 --> 00:02:26.339 urban life, 48 00:02:26.379 --> 00:02:26.519 really. 49 00:02:26.539 --> 00:02:26.659 And 50 00:02:27.459 --> 00:02:28.459 I spoke to my boss and I said, 51 00:02:28.460 --> 00:02:28.580 look, 52 00:02:28.581 --> 00:02:30.680 I can't work in the city anymore. 53 00:02:31.460 --> 00:02:31.760 He said, 54 00:02:31.780 --> 00:02:32.041 fine, 55 00:02:32.781 --> 00:02:35.141 take your computer and go and work in a rural setting. 56 00:02:35.161 --> 00:02:39.003 And I ended up moving to North Norfolk on the, 57 00:02:39.004 --> 00:02:41.383 a couple of hours from London on the coast. 58 00:02:41.503 --> 00:02:43.484 And I was living with a friend of mine who farms up there. 59 00:02:45.016 --> 00:02:48.357 But I was trading with a friend of my boss's local to that, 60 00:02:49.398 --> 00:02:49.718 to his, 61 00:02:50.038 --> 00:02:51.018 to my friend's place. 62 00:02:51.219 --> 00:02:51.479 And 63 00:02:52.039 --> 00:02:53.179 I managed that for a few months. 64 00:02:53.180 --> 00:02:56.120 But then I realized that actually it wasn't just London. 65 00:02:56.121 --> 00:02:58.261 It was staring at computer screens that was doing my head in. 66 00:02:58.281 --> 00:03:03.483 And we had this wonderful opportunity to work on the land. 67 00:03:03.964 --> 00:03:05.804 My dad was mid-60s. 68 00:03:07.145 --> 00:03:10.066 I was seeing what my friend was up to daily on the farm, 69 00:03:10.186 --> 00:03:10.686 on his farm. 70 00:03:11.427 --> 00:03:11.547 So 71 00:03:12.167 --> 00:03:14.048 I quit and I came back and joined. 72 00:03:15.420 --> 00:03:33.112 My father here at Nettishall in 2003 and so very different no real training prior to coming back to the farm in the agricultural world and yeah just learned from the guys that we employed at the time and also from my father and 73 00:03:34.353 --> 00:03:43.179 yeah we just ran so a bit of a background to the farm that's my personal sort of journey up to when I came back but with regards to the farm my father came here from Scotland. 74 00:03:43.859 --> 00:03:44.920 He was brought up in Edinburgh. 75 00:03:45.460 --> 00:04:01.987 came back down down to norfolk he used to work with his uncle who farms in mid-norfolk so quite close to here and he went to agricultural college and then he he had an opportunity to take on the tenancy of hall farm where we are now and it was a big dairy farm um grass and 76 00:04:02.027 --> 00:04:14.272 he he started doing that and he he ran that for about 20 odd years a dairy dairy business and he grew the herd to about 500 animals so quite a big herd at the time and um 77 00:04:14.632 --> 00:04:14.932 Actually, 78 00:04:14.933 --> 00:04:18.894 I think it was the bank manager or either the bank manager or the accountant that came to him and said, 79 00:04:18.934 --> 00:04:19.115 look, 80 00:04:19.955 --> 00:04:20.915 you're working around the clock. 81 00:04:20.996 --> 00:04:22.096 You're not really earning any money. 82 00:04:23.397 --> 00:04:25.638 Get rid of those black and white things and sell the milk quota. 83 00:04:25.858 --> 00:04:27.159 And he took that on board. 84 00:04:28.700 --> 00:04:29.860 The work-life balance wasn't there, 85 00:04:29.900 --> 00:04:30.281 basically. 86 00:04:30.341 --> 00:04:33.202 And he so in I think it was 1986, 87 00:04:34.063 --> 00:04:38.045 he sold the all the cows and the milk quota. 88 00:04:39.285 --> 00:04:42.367 And then we became quite a traditional Breckland farm. 89 00:04:42.407 --> 00:04:43.248 This is the area here, 90 00:04:43.249 --> 00:04:43.708 the Brecks. 91 00:04:46.071 --> 00:04:49.896 and by that I mean we we 92 00:04:50.937 --> 00:04:51.958 Ploughed up the grassland, 93 00:04:52.058 --> 00:04:53.920 we became an arable business, 94 00:04:55.321 --> 00:04:57.083 but we're on light sandy soils here, 95 00:04:57.183 --> 00:05:00.265 so actually quite good for growing vegetables and stuff. 96 00:05:00.305 --> 00:05:08.273 So we got an abstraction license from the Environment Agency to pull water from underground aquifers to water crops, 97 00:05:08.873 --> 00:05:11.776 and we rented out some of the land here for vegetables, 98 00:05:11.896 --> 00:05:12.877 so for potatoes, 99 00:05:12.977 --> 00:05:13.397 carrots, 100 00:05:13.517 --> 00:05:14.018 parsnips, 101 00:05:14.058 --> 00:05:14.879 even onions were here, 102 00:05:15.559 --> 00:05:15.940 on and off. 103 00:05:16.940 --> 00:05:17.241 And then... 104 00:05:18.617 --> 00:05:18.737 We, 105 00:05:18.897 --> 00:05:19.598 for ourselves, 106 00:05:19.599 --> 00:05:22.539 we used to grow winter and spring cereals in sugar beet. 107 00:05:23.039 --> 00:05:24.520 And so we had quite a diverse rotation. 108 00:05:24.620 --> 00:05:28.321 But that system, 109 00:05:29.362 --> 00:05:29.602 you know, 110 00:05:29.622 --> 00:05:31.302 it's quite an extractive sort of system. 111 00:05:31.342 --> 00:05:32.643 There's a lot of tillage involved, 112 00:05:33.803 --> 00:05:36.585 a lot of water applied to the vegetable crops. 113 00:05:37.705 --> 00:05:42.647 And we were just seeing quite significant soil degradation over the years. 114 00:05:42.667 --> 00:05:43.087 And actually, 115 00:05:43.667 --> 00:05:45.928 from when I came back to 2018, 116 00:05:45.929 --> 00:05:46.389 we were seeing, 117 00:05:46.869 --> 00:05:47.129 you know, 118 00:05:47.701 --> 00:05:47.941 Actually, 119 00:05:47.981 --> 00:05:50.202 quite significant yield loss in our cereal crops. 120 00:05:50.882 --> 00:05:52.183 The soils were pretty dead. 121 00:05:53.404 --> 00:05:53.644 You know, 122 00:05:53.645 --> 00:05:54.904 we were seeing compacted soils, 123 00:05:54.984 --> 00:05:55.925 waterlogged soils, 124 00:05:57.485 --> 00:05:59.306 anaerobic soils generally. 125 00:06:00.367 --> 00:06:02.187 And at that point, 126 00:06:02.188 --> 00:06:03.788 we kind of felt like we needed to change something. 127 00:06:05.149 --> 00:06:10.071 Was there a particular point or a particular moment where you really felt like, 128 00:06:10.111 --> 00:06:10.291 okay, 129 00:06:10.411 --> 00:06:11.151 you needed to change? 130 00:06:11.351 --> 00:06:12.632 Or was it a gradual process? 131 00:06:15.569 --> 00:06:18.330 I would say 2018 was kind of the year, 132 00:06:18.830 --> 00:06:20.651 my epiphanal year, 133 00:06:20.811 --> 00:06:21.231 I call it. 134 00:06:21.232 --> 00:06:21.392 I mean, 135 00:06:23.352 --> 00:06:23.973 I was having, 136 00:06:24.373 --> 00:06:24.833 personally, 137 00:06:24.953 --> 00:06:25.553 we were having, 138 00:06:26.274 --> 00:06:29.675 I was having some troubles maritally, 139 00:06:29.895 --> 00:06:31.896 and thankfully we kind of got through that. 140 00:06:31.897 --> 00:06:33.337 But that was a difficult time in that regard. 141 00:06:33.397 --> 00:06:36.198 I also had a really bad accident on the farm, 142 00:06:38.519 --> 00:06:40.320 which knocked me for six. 143 00:06:40.380 --> 00:06:41.680 I very nearly died. 144 00:06:42.821 --> 00:06:43.121 And... 145 00:06:44.065 --> 00:06:44.305 you know, 146 00:06:44.306 --> 00:06:44.845 I've still got, 147 00:06:45.065 --> 00:06:47.286 I'm still feeling the effects of it now with, 148 00:06:47.366 --> 00:06:49.787 with hearing loss in one ear and tinnitus and stuff. 149 00:06:49.847 --> 00:06:49.967 So 150 00:06:51.728 --> 00:06:52.929 I came through that and I, 151 00:06:53.069 --> 00:06:53.189 I, 152 00:06:53.349 --> 00:06:54.289 a few months after that, 153 00:06:54.290 --> 00:06:57.871 I saw the surgeon that operated on me and he sat me down and he said, 154 00:06:57.931 --> 00:06:58.071 look, 155 00:06:58.111 --> 00:06:58.531 if you, 156 00:06:58.591 --> 00:07:00.352 if the bleed in your brain had been any worse, 157 00:07:00.652 --> 00:07:00.772 um, 158 00:07:00.972 --> 00:07:01.092 you, 159 00:07:01.192 --> 00:07:01.892 you wouldn't be here. 160 00:07:01.893 --> 00:07:02.573 And it was kind of, 161 00:07:02.833 --> 00:07:04.373 it was a very emotional time for me. 162 00:07:04.413 --> 00:07:05.034 That was like a, 163 00:07:06.194 --> 00:07:06.314 yeah, 164 00:07:06.334 --> 00:07:08.275 I totally broke down and I, 165 00:07:08.276 --> 00:07:08.595 um, 166 00:07:09.736 --> 00:07:09.876 yeah, 167 00:07:09.956 --> 00:07:12.537 I just kind And so there was that huge... 168 00:07:15.838 --> 00:07:31.427 news and that huge event that happened and also on a lesser level on the but still significant on the land we were seeing you know we weren't i was i was walking across our lawn um in the winter evenings at that time and seeing lots 169 00:07:31.428 --> 00:07:40.773 of worms shooting back as you shone light over the grass you know pretty much an organic lawn effectively and then as soon as we got into our arable fields there was no life no worms and um 170 00:07:41.213 --> 00:07:41.573 So yeah, 171 00:07:41.653 --> 00:07:43.755 that and what had happened personally, 172 00:07:46.857 --> 00:07:47.017 men, 173 00:07:47.237 --> 00:07:49.198 I just felt like we needed to do something different. 174 00:07:49.339 --> 00:07:52.421 And so we initially in 2018, 175 00:07:52.422 --> 00:07:55.182 we just started with growing some cover crops. 176 00:07:56.263 --> 00:07:59.125 So we were growing quite a few spring crops with the vegetables and the sugar beet. 177 00:08:00.066 --> 00:08:02.347 So we had opportunities to grow covers over the winter. 178 00:08:02.407 --> 00:08:03.748 So not leaving any bare soil. 179 00:08:03.768 --> 00:08:10.633 And then so we grew covers and we introduced livestock in the form of my neighbor's sheep. 180 00:08:10.853 --> 00:08:26.377 flying flock i think they call it these days so richard and katie used to bring um sheep onto graves and so we sort of started that journey um into sort of regenerating soils in 2018 but um the 181 00:08:27.338 --> 00:08:39.901 yeah we we ran that for a couple of years but we we were still renting land to the vegetable guys we were still growing sugar beet and those those crops in particular are quite heavy on the tillage um for lots of reasons um and that. 182 00:08:39.961 --> 00:08:40.942 and also on the inputs, 183 00:08:40.943 --> 00:08:41.682 the chemical inputs. 184 00:08:41.742 --> 00:08:42.383 And so 185 00:08:44.364 --> 00:08:46.085 I didn't feel like we were doing enough, 186 00:08:46.366 --> 00:08:51.149 like we were kind of making a small effort in improving soils, 187 00:08:51.229 --> 00:08:53.571 but there was a small effort. 188 00:08:53.572 --> 00:08:58.714 And then there was kind of almost a backstep when the big kit arrived and, 189 00:08:59.114 --> 00:08:59.335 you know, 190 00:08:59.336 --> 00:09:01.116 the plows and the destoners and everything else. 191 00:09:01.136 --> 00:09:01.256 So 192 00:09:02.457 --> 00:09:05.219 I think in 2020 it was. 193 00:09:05.220 --> 00:09:05.939 And during this time, 194 00:09:05.959 --> 00:09:07.100 from 2018 to 2020, 195 00:09:07.120 --> 00:09:08.141 I was listening to quite a few. 196 00:09:08.421 --> 00:09:25.878 podcast reading a lot of books about um the soil health and what can be done and i listened to a john kemp's podcast in late 2020 um one of his episodes featured an english guy called ben taylor davis regen ben he's known known as and um what 197 00:09:25.898 --> 00:09:33.065 he talked about kind of really resonated with me and um i looked him up basically and we we we got talking and he came and visited the farm 198 00:09:34.300 --> 00:09:34.800 And I said, 199 00:09:34.840 --> 00:09:34.980 look, 200 00:09:35.340 --> 00:09:35.561 you know, 201 00:09:35.562 --> 00:09:36.221 we're not doing enough. 202 00:09:38.082 --> 00:09:40.603 I want to implement change fast. 203 00:09:40.604 --> 00:09:40.963 I'm not, 204 00:09:41.003 --> 00:09:41.543 you know, 205 00:09:42.183 --> 00:09:44.064 as I learned from my accident, 206 00:09:44.084 --> 00:09:44.364 you know, 207 00:09:44.444 --> 00:09:44.744 you can, 208 00:09:45.264 --> 00:09:46.385 we're not here for long and it can. 209 00:09:46.905 --> 00:09:49.466 And so I wanted to really crack on. 210 00:09:49.526 --> 00:09:50.026 So I just said, 211 00:09:50.027 --> 00:09:50.146 look, 212 00:09:50.507 --> 00:09:51.827 I want to stop doing this and doing that. 213 00:09:52.727 --> 00:09:55.609 And he's been sort of holding our hands through that process since. 214 00:09:56.389 --> 00:09:56.869 So that was what, 215 00:09:56.949 --> 00:09:58.070 four or five years ago after? 216 00:09:58.110 --> 00:09:58.550 Four years ago. 217 00:09:58.710 --> 00:09:59.190 Four years ago, 218 00:09:59.290 --> 00:09:59.530 yes. 219 00:10:01.211 --> 00:10:01.911 We actually met, 220 00:10:02.031 --> 00:10:02.892 you and I, 221 00:10:03.052 --> 00:10:03.792 at Groundswell. 222 00:10:04.236 --> 00:10:04.756 Not this year, 223 00:10:05.177 --> 00:10:05.717 the year before, 224 00:10:05.817 --> 00:10:06.017 right? 225 00:10:06.077 --> 00:10:06.477 At the bar, 226 00:10:06.657 --> 00:10:08.298 just queuing for a beer. 227 00:10:08.739 --> 00:10:08.979 Yes, 228 00:10:09.079 --> 00:10:09.559 absolutely. 229 00:10:09.719 --> 00:10:09.959 Yes. 230 00:10:10.099 --> 00:10:10.319 And 231 00:10:10.860 --> 00:10:12.681 I remember one of the first things 232 00:10:13.401 --> 00:10:18.024 I told you is that a lot of the farmers I had met told me that it's really important to just go slowly, 233 00:10:18.124 --> 00:10:21.205 step by step into the sort of regenerative transition. 234 00:10:21.626 --> 00:10:22.666 And you told me, 235 00:10:23.287 --> 00:10:23.467 well, 236 00:10:23.468 --> 00:10:24.467 I did exactly the opposite. 237 00:10:24.487 --> 00:10:26.068 I went all in as quickly as I could. 238 00:10:27.049 --> 00:10:27.269 Yeah. 239 00:10:28.830 --> 00:10:31.031 My friends would say I'm not the most patient of people. 240 00:10:31.691 --> 00:10:32.452 um 241 00:10:33.428 --> 00:10:33.788 And actually, 242 00:10:33.908 --> 00:10:36.209 just from the stuff I was reading, 243 00:10:36.229 --> 00:10:36.409 I mean, 244 00:10:36.429 --> 00:10:37.629 books like The Silent Spring, 245 00:10:38.389 --> 00:10:38.649 you know, 246 00:10:38.669 --> 00:10:42.510 I suddenly realized that actually insecticides are just horrific products. 247 00:10:42.591 --> 00:10:46.592 They're very cheap and they're widely used in conventional agriculture. 248 00:10:48.752 --> 00:10:49.352 And I just thought, 249 00:10:49.933 --> 00:10:50.633 we don't need that. 250 00:10:50.853 --> 00:10:51.953 We can farm without those. 251 00:10:52.593 --> 00:10:53.213 And I didn't like, 252 00:10:53.313 --> 00:10:53.553 you know, 253 00:10:53.573 --> 00:10:56.714 I've always been interested in wildlife and conservation. 254 00:10:56.774 --> 00:10:58.955 And so we've always been doing stewardship-y sort of stuff. 255 00:10:58.995 --> 00:11:02.616 but it's felt like parts of the land will have a... 256 00:11:02.976 --> 00:11:19.253 a pollinator net to strip around a field or a field corner that we leave um uh sort of for nature as it were but then we're still farming in an aggressive um heavy input style in the middle of the field so it's sort of a them and us kind of thing i didn't feel so i wanted to sort 257 00:11:19.254 --> 00:11:25.959 of farm with nature a bit more um and you know i i as well when i met you i was 48 i guess 258 00:11:28.836 --> 00:11:29.076 And 259 00:11:29.677 --> 00:11:30.797 I just felt like we knew, 260 00:11:30.798 --> 00:11:30.978 you know, 261 00:11:31.138 --> 00:11:32.718 I just wanted to implement change fast. 262 00:11:32.738 --> 00:11:35.240 So insecticides went. 263 00:11:36.100 --> 00:11:38.321 We decided we didn't want to use fungicides anymore. 264 00:11:38.361 --> 00:11:39.902 We didn't want to use seed treatments. 265 00:11:40.903 --> 00:11:43.484 And we wanted to stop using plant growth regulators. 266 00:11:44.685 --> 00:11:45.645 And as well as that, 267 00:11:45.685 --> 00:11:48.387 we wanted to cut back on our synthetic fertilized use. 268 00:11:48.407 --> 00:11:48.707 And that's, 269 00:11:49.067 --> 00:11:49.307 you know, 270 00:11:49.327 --> 00:11:49.848 it's a big, 271 00:11:50.068 --> 00:11:52.769 it's a lot to do straight away. 272 00:11:53.169 --> 00:11:54.450 And there has been, 273 00:11:54.550 --> 00:11:54.790 you know, 274 00:11:54.830 --> 00:11:55.711 there's been yield losses. 275 00:11:56.451 --> 00:11:56.992 It's not a... 276 00:11:58.580 --> 00:12:13.849 a step to be underestimated but i for me i needed someone to hold my hand and actually you know i just don't think there are enough advisors to help us go this go down this route because it's change at scale is doing anything different i mean particularly 277 00:12:13.850 --> 00:12:18.992 to your neighbors or particularly um nationally is is a is is 278 00:12:19.152 --> 00:12:35.324 a big step and it's a brave step um but i i haven't looked back amazing yeah you know that's actually something that a lot of my guests have said both farmers and experts is that we we really need independent agronomists agroecologists funded 279 00:12:35.325 --> 00:12:45.752 by the state ideally or partially at least yeah to help farmers how how helpful would that be for farmers like yourselves who who want to change the way they farm oh just enormous enormous i mean Thank you. 280 00:12:46.248 --> 00:12:46.808 Unfortunately, 281 00:12:46.828 --> 00:12:47.048 you know, 282 00:12:47.049 --> 00:12:48.489 there's not many Ben's around and 283 00:12:49.469 --> 00:12:52.770 I mean there are a few other guys in the UK that can help 284 00:12:54.570 --> 00:12:55.110 But you know, 285 00:12:55.150 --> 00:12:56.091 he's getting more and more 286 00:12:57.071 --> 00:13:01.272 Queries basically everyone's really struggling in the conventional but in farming in general, 287 00:13:01.292 --> 00:13:04.353 but some you know inputs are going getting more expensive 288 00:13:05.293 --> 00:13:08.094 Margins are getting squeezed quantity prices are low. 289 00:13:08.314 --> 00:13:08.554 You know, 290 00:13:08.754 --> 00:13:11.815 there's this it's tough out there and 291 00:13:13.555 --> 00:13:15.316 I've had I've had growers come here 292 00:13:15.876 --> 00:13:31.589 to farm walks and stuff and they're you know they're working with big ag businesses who are providing an agronomist to them they're buying the chemicals from them fertilizer um and they're miserable um but they don't feel they can kind 293 00:13:31.590 --> 00:13:44.160 of do without it um because they don't know this the unknown it's the yeah it's it's the worry that if you don't use um let's say a fungicide the crop's going to 294 00:13:44.240 --> 00:13:59.513 basically die it's going to be a total disaster but and that's how we felt a few years ago i mean we felt when we first started thinking about cutting back on fungicide use so probably 2019 um you know we were getting advice from our agronomist to apply 295 00:13:59.593 --> 00:14:11.343 let's say a t3 or t2 um to mitigate possible rust um infection or whatever it might be in a cereal crop and you know i'd say to guys, 296 00:14:11.483 --> 00:14:11.663 right, 297 00:14:11.703 --> 00:14:11.903 okay, 298 00:14:11.963 --> 00:14:12.624 well let's just... 299 00:14:13.272 --> 00:14:30.824 you know he'd send me the wreck and we'd we'd we'd just miss out a section of the field we would just wouldn't spray a couple of tram lines in the field and we'd feel like like naughty school kids doing it it was it was and actually what what what the effect of that was when we did it is when we ran the combine through the crop the 300 00:14:31.844 --> 00:14:33.065 There would seem to be a minor, 301 00:14:33.085 --> 00:14:36.908 a tiny yield loss where we hadn't used that T2 spray. 302 00:14:38.089 --> 00:14:43.774 But actually the cost of the chemical plus the pass with the sprayer would have, 303 00:14:44.514 --> 00:14:48.798 against the cost of the price of the commodity, 304 00:14:50.820 --> 00:14:55.083 we would have lost a little bit of money for going through the crop with that T2 spray. 305 00:14:55.163 --> 00:14:55.283 So, 306 00:14:55.443 --> 00:14:55.663 I mean, 307 00:14:55.664 --> 00:14:56.544 it was negligible, 308 00:14:56.624 --> 00:14:58.526 but we didn't lose a crop. 309 00:14:59.026 --> 00:15:00.648 We lost a tiny amount of yield. 310 00:15:01.544 --> 00:15:09.750 It kind of then led us down the route of actually going away from monocrops and companion cropping and all the other stuff that I'm sure we'll talk about today. 311 00:15:10.570 --> 00:15:10.690 Yeah, 312 00:15:11.151 --> 00:15:26.581 so two different things I'm hearing here is one of the big reasons why farmers are struggling to change the way they farm and transition is that they are lacking the technical knowledge or the access to knowledge on these new generative 313 00:15:26.601 --> 00:15:28.303 farming and science and all of that. 314 00:15:28.523 --> 00:15:30.244 And the other reason is risk. 315 00:15:30.664 --> 00:15:34.706 That's actually something that a lot of the experts we've just spoken to in the last few days, 316 00:15:35.267 --> 00:15:41.470 they've pretty much all said is one of the key reasons why farmers don't kind of go towards regenerative. 317 00:15:41.890 --> 00:15:44.832 But we were talking yesterday at the dinner table, 318 00:15:45.152 --> 00:15:49.014 and you said something really interesting that stuck with me. 319 00:15:50.115 --> 00:15:52.376 You were talking about all of these other farmers, 320 00:15:52.377 --> 00:15:52.596 you know, 321 00:15:52.597 --> 00:15:55.117 in the area and all of the struggles they're having right now, 322 00:15:55.718 --> 00:15:58.319 and how they're really struggling to make ends meet, 323 00:15:59.319 --> 00:16:00.260 because the yields are buff 324 00:16:00.948 --> 00:16:02.689 falling down because one year is too dry, 325 00:16:02.789 --> 00:16:03.569 one year is too wet, 326 00:16:03.629 --> 00:16:03.929 because, 327 00:16:03.989 --> 00:16:04.249 you know, 328 00:16:04.449 --> 00:16:07.530 the price of commodity crops is too low, 329 00:16:08.110 --> 00:16:09.030 all of these reasons. 330 00:16:09.230 --> 00:16:10.671 And so you told me, 331 00:16:11.091 --> 00:16:12.171 I'm not sure the exact quote, 332 00:16:12.251 --> 00:16:15.332 but everyone's asking me how I can deal with so much risk, 333 00:16:15.412 --> 00:16:16.052 but actually, 334 00:16:16.132 --> 00:16:17.473 who's taking the biggest risk here? 335 00:16:17.753 --> 00:16:17.873 Yeah, 336 00:16:17.893 --> 00:16:18.073 right. 337 00:16:18.373 --> 00:16:18.513 Yeah, 338 00:16:18.733 --> 00:16:19.033 absolutely. 339 00:16:19.133 --> 00:16:19.353 Right. 340 00:16:19.693 --> 00:16:20.213 So you're, 341 00:16:20.773 --> 00:16:20.913 well, 342 00:16:21.194 --> 00:16:22.214 we'll come on to that in a second. 343 00:16:22.215 --> 00:16:23.234 But just for the first part, 344 00:16:23.235 --> 00:16:24.614 you were talking about independent agronomy. 345 00:16:25.615 --> 00:16:27.055 If we could just go back. 346 00:16:27.255 --> 00:16:27.835 Of course. 347 00:16:29.596 --> 00:16:29.936 I think 348 00:16:30.624 --> 00:16:32.265 I was on a panel at Groundswell this year, 349 00:16:32.266 --> 00:16:34.706 and we were talking about agronomists and how this works. 350 00:16:34.707 --> 00:16:35.187 But in the UK, 351 00:16:37.048 --> 00:16:39.469 a lot of the agronomists are working for big ag firms, 352 00:16:39.549 --> 00:16:40.309 ag chem firms. 353 00:16:40.870 --> 00:16:41.150 And, 354 00:16:42.211 --> 00:16:42.451 you know, 355 00:16:42.711 --> 00:16:48.894 they're sort of incentivized to sell you chemicals that you may or may not need on the farm. 356 00:16:48.914 --> 00:16:52.276 And the general view was what needs to happen is that agronomists need to be, 357 00:16:52.496 --> 00:16:52.716 you know, 358 00:16:52.717 --> 00:16:53.377 they're professionals. 359 00:16:53.378 --> 00:16:55.738 They understand pests and diseases. 360 00:16:56.858 --> 00:16:57.439 But we need, 361 00:16:57.519 --> 00:16:57.959 as farmers, 362 00:16:57.960 --> 00:16:58.699 we need to pay them. 363 00:16:59.740 --> 00:17:15.465 rather than sort of free advice and and then we use the chemicals they're selling us um and they're getting a bit of an income from from that side of things we need to pay them us farmers need to pay these agronomists um probably more money for their professional advice so they can maintain 364 00:17:15.466 --> 00:17:25.488 an income but also we then look at other ways of of of going forward without reaching for a can and you 365 00:17:25.984 --> 00:17:32.090 don't you know unfortunately these these ag chem firms make you know huge amounts of money from from selling chemicals to farmers and 366 00:17:34.512 --> 00:17:38.536 And so that's gonna be a big hit for them I don't I I don't really know the way forward with that But 367 00:17:39.476 --> 00:17:40.898 I you know I think that you can 368 00:17:41.418 --> 00:17:43.420 I would like to think that we could we could pull out 369 00:17:43.820 --> 00:17:47.764 Pull off some independent and get some decent independent advice from them for a fee 370 00:17:48.545 --> 00:17:51.668 Without having to reach for a can but that's that's that's absolutely 371 00:17:52.208 --> 00:17:53.609 But going back to the second point, 372 00:17:54.549 --> 00:17:55.910 with the conventional growers and risk, 373 00:17:57.391 --> 00:17:59.452 we were talking about a situation, 374 00:17:59.612 --> 00:17:59.832 you know, 375 00:17:59.852 --> 00:18:03.694 when the Ukraine war started with a massive spike in fertilizer prices. 376 00:18:03.774 --> 00:18:07.696 I was talking to farmers after that season, 377 00:18:07.816 --> 00:18:08.837 after that growing season, 378 00:18:08.877 --> 00:18:11.018 and some of them were saying that these conventional guys, 379 00:18:11.398 --> 00:18:12.519 big farms down in Essex, 380 00:18:12.839 --> 00:18:13.420 they're spending, 381 00:18:14.040 --> 00:18:20.423 at the time they were spending between £1,500 and £2,000 a hectare on costs, 382 00:18:20.483 --> 00:18:21.484 fixed and variable costs. 383 00:18:21.748 --> 00:18:22.789 on growing a wheat crop, 384 00:18:22.869 --> 00:18:23.229 let's say. 385 00:18:25.010 --> 00:18:25.371 And, 386 00:18:26.291 --> 00:18:26.571 you know, 387 00:18:27.312 --> 00:18:28.073 at the time when, 388 00:18:28.853 --> 00:18:30.995 so a few months after the war broke out, 389 00:18:31.035 --> 00:18:33.176 I think as prices sort of settled down again, 390 00:18:33.216 --> 00:18:34.457 commodity prices settled down, 391 00:18:34.997 --> 00:18:40.161 there came a point when wheat was worth between 200 and 250 pounds a ton. 392 00:18:41.622 --> 00:18:42.543 Their growing costs were, 393 00:18:43.103 --> 00:18:43.363 you know, 394 00:18:43.364 --> 00:18:45.225 between 1,500 and 2,000 pounds a ton. 395 00:18:45.265 --> 00:18:47.666 So they need to hit yields of eight, 396 00:18:47.746 --> 00:18:49.808 nine tons a hectare just to break even. 397 00:18:50.952 --> 00:18:51.072 We, 398 00:18:51.352 --> 00:18:51.993 on our farm, 399 00:18:52.713 --> 00:18:54.855 we're trying to keep costs below 400 00:18:55.835 --> 00:18:57.056 600 pounds a hectare. 401 00:18:57.917 --> 00:18:58.037 So, 402 00:18:59.178 --> 00:18:59.458 you know, 403 00:19:00.058 --> 00:19:03.861 I need to yield three tons a hectare to break even. 404 00:19:03.981 --> 00:19:04.141 Now, 405 00:19:04.761 --> 00:19:05.142 and then I, 406 00:19:05.202 --> 00:19:06.643 and so exactly as I said to you the other day, 407 00:19:06.683 --> 00:19:06.903 I mean, 408 00:19:06.983 --> 00:19:08.004 who's taking the risk here? 409 00:19:08.324 --> 00:19:08.544 We're, 410 00:19:08.804 --> 00:19:09.044 you know, 411 00:19:09.405 --> 00:19:14.948 the pressure on them to get those yields when the biggest factor is really is drought and, 412 00:19:14.968 --> 00:19:15.209 you know, 413 00:19:15.349 --> 00:19:16.750 is weather conditions through the spring, 414 00:19:17.030 --> 00:19:17.870 through the growing season. 415 00:19:18.010 --> 00:19:19.231 I feel like we're the ones, 416 00:19:19.932 --> 00:19:20.172 you know. 417 00:19:20.392 --> 00:19:22.435 being far more sensible and taking way less risk. 418 00:19:22.736 --> 00:19:22.876 Yeah. 419 00:19:23.077 --> 00:19:23.297 Okay. 420 00:19:23.798 --> 00:19:26.502 And for people like me who have kind of no idea about these things, 421 00:19:27.243 --> 00:19:28.245 is no eight, 422 00:19:28.305 --> 00:19:28.505 nine, 423 00:19:28.525 --> 00:19:29.147 10 tons per, 424 00:19:29.287 --> 00:19:29.808 per hectare. 425 00:19:30.088 --> 00:19:30.609 Is that a lot? 426 00:19:30.689 --> 00:19:31.450 What's the sort of, 427 00:19:31.831 --> 00:19:31.951 so. 428 00:19:33.496 --> 00:19:35.517 Not for us here on our soils, 429 00:19:35.577 --> 00:19:36.178 but down in, 430 00:19:36.578 --> 00:19:36.718 well, 431 00:19:37.018 --> 00:19:37.338 funnily enough, 432 00:19:37.959 --> 00:19:38.259 again, 433 00:19:39.379 --> 00:19:42.221 ongoing chats with my friends down on sort of Essex clay, 434 00:19:42.281 --> 00:19:44.002 so much stronger land. 435 00:19:45.203 --> 00:19:45.983 In years gone by, 436 00:19:46.003 --> 00:19:48.144 they have been able to achieve 10 tonnes a hectare. 437 00:19:49.565 --> 00:19:50.505 But in the last few years, 438 00:19:50.525 --> 00:19:51.646 they're just not able to do that. 439 00:19:51.686 --> 00:19:52.607 So some of these guys now, 440 00:19:52.667 --> 00:19:54.868 they're looking at seven and a half, 441 00:19:55.108 --> 00:19:55.968 maybe eight max. 442 00:19:56.949 --> 00:19:57.870 So they've, 443 00:19:59.390 --> 00:20:00.311 and they'll freely admit, 444 00:20:00.371 --> 00:20:01.712 they've just overworked the soils. 445 00:20:02.496 --> 00:20:02.676 Okay. 446 00:20:02.736 --> 00:20:02.996 You know, 447 00:20:03.257 --> 00:20:05.838 a fairly limited rotation of maybe oilseed rape and wheat, 448 00:20:07.980 --> 00:20:08.600 too much tillage, 449 00:20:08.640 --> 00:20:10.422 too much reliance on inputs, 450 00:20:10.622 --> 00:20:13.844 and they're ending up with quite dead soils, 451 00:20:14.144 --> 00:20:17.246 and they are massively concerned about the situations down there now. 452 00:20:17.526 --> 00:20:17.867 I bet. 453 00:20:18.007 --> 00:20:18.127 Yeah, 454 00:20:18.147 --> 00:20:18.527 so okay, 455 00:20:18.567 --> 00:20:22.910 so basically 10 tons is like the best you can expect in a good year. 456 00:20:23.110 --> 00:20:24.731 Yeah. 457 00:20:24.732 --> 00:20:30.836 And this is getting harder and harder to achieve anyway with the state of the soil and with climate change and all of that. 458 00:20:31.116 --> 00:20:31.236 Yeah. 459 00:20:31.816 --> 00:20:32.256 And therefore, 460 00:20:32.417 --> 00:20:35.198 if a farmer just to break even needs to achieve that, 461 00:20:35.318 --> 00:20:37.279 that's a big ask. 462 00:20:37.419 --> 00:20:44.103 It's a big ask and it's a huge risk because the best case scenario is going to break even and in most cases actually lose money. 463 00:20:44.323 --> 00:20:44.443 Yeah, 464 00:20:44.603 --> 00:20:44.964 exactly. 465 00:20:45.164 --> 00:20:45.684 And that's why, 466 00:20:46.825 --> 00:20:47.085 you know, 467 00:20:47.145 --> 00:20:49.806 subsidies have been phased out. 468 00:20:50.467 --> 00:20:52.428 I think they began phasing out, 469 00:20:52.448 --> 00:20:52.668 you know, 470 00:20:52.669 --> 00:20:57.310 they began being phased out a few years ago in the UK as sort of single arable area payment. 471 00:20:57.831 --> 00:20:59.432 And now they're totally gone. 472 00:21:00.412 --> 00:21:01.233 And that was, 473 00:21:02.534 --> 00:21:02.754 you know, 474 00:21:02.755 --> 00:21:03.335 for many years, 475 00:21:03.355 --> 00:21:06.177 that was kind of the profit really of a farming business. 476 00:21:06.998 --> 00:21:07.678 And now that's gone. 477 00:21:07.679 --> 00:21:12.402 So I'm mega concerned about the future for a lot of growers, 478 00:21:12.442 --> 00:21:13.823 but especially the conventional ones. 479 00:21:13.824 --> 00:21:14.024 I mean, 480 00:21:14.364 --> 00:21:16.766 I suppose in some ways it might strong arm them into change. 481 00:21:17.707 --> 00:21:18.928 So perhaps that's a good thing. 482 00:21:19.628 --> 00:21:19.989 For sure. 483 00:21:20.409 --> 00:21:28.696 Would you recommend any farmers sort of starts looking towards regenerative farming or is that depending on the context? 484 00:21:29.552 --> 00:21:48.827 uh i would absolutely recommend every farmer to do so but it's just you know it's a big step and and not only you need everyone on the same page so in a farming business i mean we were when we began change we had two guys working for us who who were young and they're they 485 00:21:48.828 --> 00:21:55.812 had worked on conventional farms before but they they were interested in what we were looking to do they come to groundswell with me they they 486 00:21:56.176 --> 00:22:15.922 learn from ben when he comes to the farm we're all kind of in it together and now we're all we're all driven towards the same goal of kind of building reasonable yields and improving soil health and so on um but um you know family wise my father he's been farming you know the same way for a lot of years and and it's been you 487 00:22:15.923 --> 00:22:23.944 know as as stipulated by the government they wanted you know food security and so on and farming every acre um filling in ditches and so on that was 488 00:22:24.268 --> 00:22:25.829 the way it was for a lot of years. 489 00:22:25.849 --> 00:22:31.454 And so it's been quite hard for him to accept the change we're making, 490 00:22:32.215 --> 00:22:37.679 accepting maybe a few weeds growing in the field or just looking at things a bit differently. 491 00:22:37.719 --> 00:22:38.800 But he's come around to it now, 492 00:22:38.820 --> 00:22:41.242 and I think he's really proud of what we've achieved. 493 00:22:41.302 --> 00:22:42.503 But yeah, 494 00:22:42.743 --> 00:22:43.204 it's hard. 495 00:22:43.244 --> 00:22:45.526 You need everyone pulling in the same direction. 496 00:22:45.527 --> 00:22:48.168 You can't have any anchors or brakes on. 497 00:22:49.189 --> 00:22:52.852 And I guess whether it's a relative or whether it's... 498 00:22:53.512 --> 00:22:59.574 farm employees who have been used to farming conventionally for a lot of years they're almost 499 00:23:00.994 --> 00:23:21.080 I don't mean willing it to fail but when you make changes that you know they're used to conventional growing and conventional whatever the doing jobs at certain times of the year that they've always done and it's just and it's kind of resistance to change of course and no one likes to be told that what you're doing is wrong yeah and so they don't want you to prove them wrong I mean, 500 00:23:21.280 --> 00:23:22.100 it's normal. 501 00:23:22.280 --> 00:23:40.776 yeah and actually for us with with going back to the agronomist the guy we were using he's a good guy and i you know he helped us a lot over the years but when we took ben on ben just said look you can't have um we wanted to keep the chemical agronomist on because i kind of wanted to let him down let him down gently but i wanted to possibly 502 00:23:40.816 --> 00:23:50.904 still receive some chemical advice some herbicide advice for weed control because that was still something that we were doing a little bit of but actually ben said um look i can give you that so Thank you. 503 00:23:51.248 --> 00:23:53.132 Let's move on from the previous guy. 504 00:23:53.252 --> 00:23:55.055 And actually... 505 00:23:56.003 --> 00:23:56.803 The guy that we had, 506 00:23:57.083 --> 00:23:57.904 the chemical agronomist, 507 00:23:58.044 --> 00:23:58.284 you know, 508 00:23:58.484 --> 00:24:01.225 he would come on farm and he'd have a wander around and, 509 00:24:01.825 --> 00:24:02.045 you know, 510 00:24:02.046 --> 00:24:04.306 we'd have a chat in the kitchen afterwards over a coffee and he'd say, 511 00:24:04.346 --> 00:24:04.586 you know, 512 00:24:05.527 --> 00:24:06.627 that weed might be a problem. 513 00:24:06.628 --> 00:24:07.368 But he'd also say, 514 00:24:07.388 --> 00:24:07.648 you know, 515 00:24:07.688 --> 00:24:08.348 he's hearing about, 516 00:24:08.708 --> 00:24:09.068 let's say, 517 00:24:09.188 --> 00:24:11.909 rust infestations in wheat in the area and blah, 518 00:24:11.910 --> 00:24:14.130 So you end up with a bit of doubt about what you're doing, 519 00:24:14.170 --> 00:24:15.171 which wasn't helping. 520 00:24:16.111 --> 00:24:16.351 You know, 521 00:24:16.352 --> 00:24:17.432 you just need to be positive. 522 00:24:17.592 --> 00:24:18.372 We'd made a decision. 523 00:24:18.373 --> 00:24:21.393 We weren't going to use certain pesticides. 524 00:24:21.633 --> 00:24:21.914 And 525 00:24:22.534 --> 00:24:23.934 I wasn't about to back down. 526 00:24:23.974 --> 00:24:24.875 But you just need to be. 527 00:24:26.175 --> 00:24:28.116 positive about that and you can't have any negative, 528 00:24:28.156 --> 00:24:30.116 any doubts in your head from anyone. 529 00:24:31.077 --> 00:24:33.498 I really hope you're enjoying this conversation so far. 530 00:24:33.818 --> 00:24:39.319 I just need to take a few seconds of your time to tell you about the official partner of the Deep Seed podcast, 531 00:24:39.820 --> 00:24:40.460 Soil Capital. 532 00:24:41.460 --> 00:24:49.943 Soil Capital is a company that accelerates the transition to regenerative agriculture by financially rewarding farmers who improve the health of their soils. 533 00:24:50.499 --> 00:24:51.560 They're a fantastic company. 534 00:24:51.660 --> 00:24:55.542 I love what they're doing and I'm really proud to be partnering with them for the Deep Seed podcast. 535 00:24:56.002 --> 00:24:57.242 If you'd like to learn more about them, 536 00:24:57.282 --> 00:24:59.744 I will leave a link in the description of this episode. 537 00:25:00.504 --> 00:25:01.785 Let's get back to the conversation. 538 00:25:03.465 --> 00:25:07.247 I'd love to talk in more detail about your current farming system, 539 00:25:08.288 --> 00:25:12.270 because you told us about what you were farming before for a number of years. 540 00:25:12.990 --> 00:25:14.891 Then your sort of transition process. 541 00:25:15.971 --> 00:25:16.251 So yeah, 542 00:25:16.351 --> 00:25:17.952 it'd be great if you could explain now, 543 00:25:18.032 --> 00:25:18.752 what are you farming? 544 00:25:18.832 --> 00:25:20.373 How does your system work? 545 00:25:20.753 --> 00:25:21.754 How does your rotation work? 546 00:25:22.174 --> 00:25:27.116 Don't hesitate to give us as much info and detail as possible so we can get the full picture. 547 00:25:27.196 --> 00:25:27.376 Sure, 548 00:25:27.596 --> 00:25:27.756 sure. 549 00:25:27.816 --> 00:25:27.936 So, 550 00:25:29.757 --> 00:25:30.017 you know, 551 00:25:30.097 --> 00:25:31.478 prior to 2018, 552 00:25:31.558 --> 00:25:34.599 we had a pretty diverse rotation with veggies and, 553 00:25:34.799 --> 00:25:35.039 you know, 554 00:25:35.040 --> 00:25:35.599 so we were, 555 00:25:36.960 --> 00:25:37.200 you know, 556 00:25:37.201 --> 00:25:37.800 we were pretty, 557 00:25:37.960 --> 00:25:39.921 we had a nice wide rotation. 558 00:25:40.001 --> 00:25:40.441 But actually, 559 00:25:40.481 --> 00:25:40.941 when we got, 560 00:25:41.222 --> 00:25:41.702 when we said, 561 00:25:42.302 --> 00:25:44.583 when we gave the vegetable guys notice and also... 562 00:25:44.843 --> 00:26:01.512 the sugar beet we decided to come out of sugar beet we were then left with um wheat barley oats that we were growing ourselves and we wanted to bring in some additional crops obviously um so we then looked at um well in fact we started growing beans we started growing 563 00:26:01.592 --> 00:26:12.798 peas we started growing oilseed rape and we also started looking at some quite niche crops like chia we tried borage we We tried aji flower. 564 00:26:12.958 --> 00:26:13.219 I mean, 565 00:26:13.279 --> 00:26:13.919 some quite... 566 00:26:14.359 --> 00:26:29.611 very niche little crops growing growing those for a guy in uh essex and they were used in health care um well uh cheer uh sorry cheer and uh aji flower are kind of superfoods and um borages 567 00:26:29.651 --> 00:26:38.678 used in health care for for creams and stuff but anyway we they were interesting crops and it kept a fairly broad rotation but um 568 00:26:39.879 --> 00:26:42.480 We kind of learned that actually some of those crops weren't good. 569 00:26:42.701 --> 00:26:43.981 They were quite challenging to grow, 570 00:26:44.081 --> 00:26:44.842 chia especially, 571 00:26:45.302 --> 00:26:47.563 borage also on our soils. 572 00:26:48.584 --> 00:26:52.286 So we then decided actually they needed to come out. 573 00:26:52.986 --> 00:26:54.287 So for the last two, 574 00:26:54.347 --> 00:26:54.727 three years, 575 00:26:54.787 --> 00:26:56.388 we've been just growing rape, 576 00:26:57.048 --> 00:26:57.609 winter wheat, 577 00:26:57.749 --> 00:26:58.349 spring wheat, 578 00:26:58.769 --> 00:27:00.230 a bit of spring barley occasionally, 579 00:27:00.310 --> 00:27:00.790 some oats, 580 00:27:01.411 --> 00:27:02.391 some beans and peas. 581 00:27:02.411 --> 00:27:05.473 So still a fairly robust mix. 582 00:27:07.974 --> 00:27:09.015 And they're all... 583 00:27:09.395 --> 00:27:25.144 crops that we could harvest in the summer what we didn't want to be doing was harvesting crops in the autumn where conditions might be wet and we make a mess so it was all we were looking to plant stuff that we could harvest in basically in august and 584 00:27:25.145 --> 00:27:37.951 july when soils were at their driest we could go in and out take the crop off and then get a cover crop straight in behind and what we were looking to try and do was grow maybe 50 autumn sown crops and 50 spring 585 00:27:38.627 --> 00:27:40.289 So enabling us to grow a lot of covers. 586 00:27:42.891 --> 00:27:43.692 And yeah, 587 00:27:43.712 --> 00:27:44.713 and that's what we've been doing. 588 00:27:44.733 --> 00:27:47.495 And I guess initially for the first year or so, 589 00:27:49.937 --> 00:27:55.462 we were looking to just grow sort of monocrops of those. 590 00:27:56.243 --> 00:28:03.208 we quickly realized that wasn't really helpful when we'd taken the decision to not use fungicides and insecticides. 591 00:28:03.889 --> 00:28:04.389 So we then, 592 00:28:04.469 --> 00:28:07.131 from 2022-23, 593 00:28:07.171 --> 00:28:08.652 we started looking at companions. 594 00:28:10.133 --> 00:28:12.355 So since then, 595 00:28:12.635 --> 00:28:19.900 we grow a legume with a cereal or a cereal with a legume together. 596 00:28:20.060 --> 00:28:21.161 When you say companions, 597 00:28:21.581 --> 00:28:23.403 it means you grow them together on the same field. 598 00:28:23.803 --> 00:28:43.071 yeah so initially we grew oats with beans we'd grow oats being kind of the main crop so we'd plant the the oats at around 200 kilos a hectare and the beans at about 40 but what we found with that the first year we did that we we did a bit of a trial we had a an oat and bean field we had a monocrop oat field very close by 599 00:28:44.537 --> 00:29:00.108 we were going to grow them in the same way uh no fungicides no insecticides or pgrs but um and unlimited amounts of nitrogen but just see um what what came of it and that year we had a pretty wet spring 600 00:29:00.769 --> 00:29:12.357 quite humid as well i mean perfect disease conditions um and i went into the oat and bean crop in early may i think it was and it was looking absolutely wonderful beautiful green 601 00:29:13.553 --> 00:29:13.753 Very, 602 00:29:13.833 --> 00:29:14.453 very healthy. 603 00:29:14.673 --> 00:29:20.295 And then I walked 500 yards down the farm track to the monocrop oat crop. 604 00:29:20.555 --> 00:29:24.476 And it was decimated by rust. 605 00:29:24.556 --> 00:29:24.796 I mean, 606 00:29:26.537 --> 00:29:29.217 it yielded very poorly. 607 00:29:29.237 --> 00:29:30.118 It looked very sick. 608 00:29:31.558 --> 00:29:32.498 And about two days later, 609 00:29:32.518 --> 00:29:33.799 I had a school tour come around. 610 00:29:33.979 --> 00:29:35.579 And they were all ag students, 611 00:29:35.779 --> 00:29:40.120 17-year-old guys doing a BTEC in agriculture. 612 00:29:40.920 --> 00:29:42.901 Some of them based... 613 00:29:43.502 --> 00:29:44.984 on very conventional farms. 614 00:29:46.006 --> 00:29:47.369 And it was great. 615 00:29:47.429 --> 00:29:48.310 It was wonderful timing. 616 00:29:48.350 --> 00:29:48.971 I took them around. 617 00:29:48.972 --> 00:29:52.077 We looked at those two on it and they just were flabbergasted by it. 618 00:29:52.117 --> 00:29:56.605 So it really proved to me that companions are extremely effective at... 619 00:29:57.280 --> 00:30:12.284 mitigating pest and disease pressures and actually from that that so that was kind of our trial year from then we started for the last couple of years we've been companioning everything um so we grow we grow wheat with um clover 620 00:30:12.444 --> 00:30:24.968 or vetch um sometimes peas we did a pea collaboration with a local business recently or beans um so we try a mix of things um so most of the time it's a grain and a I give them together. 621 00:30:25.208 --> 00:30:25.408 Yeah, 622 00:30:25.409 --> 00:30:26.489 most of the time it's a grain and legume, 623 00:30:26.509 --> 00:30:27.469 so you're getting the benefit, 624 00:30:27.489 --> 00:30:34.212 the nitrogen fixing ability of the legume that they're pulling the nitrogen from the atmosphere, 625 00:30:34.252 --> 00:30:40.455 releasing it via their roots into the soil for the cereal crop to benefit from and also the following crop to benefit. 626 00:30:40.996 --> 00:30:49.100 I've heard varying suggestions as to what the amount of nitrogen is that they leave in the soil. 627 00:30:50.084 --> 00:30:50.684 around 100, 628 00:30:51.605 --> 00:30:52.725 it seems to be around 100, 629 00:30:52.865 --> 00:30:53.726 maybe a tiny bit more, 630 00:30:53.727 --> 00:30:54.846 100 kilos of nitrogen, 631 00:30:55.566 --> 00:30:57.907 residual nitrogen left in the soil after a legume crop. 632 00:30:58.728 --> 00:30:59.268 Free nitrogen. 633 00:30:59.388 --> 00:30:59.628 I mean, 634 00:30:59.668 --> 00:31:00.469 it's incredible. 635 00:31:00.529 --> 00:31:00.649 So, 636 00:31:02.069 --> 00:31:02.409 so that, 637 00:31:02.529 --> 00:31:02.710 yeah, 638 00:31:02.850 --> 00:31:03.610 that's been a real, 639 00:31:03.650 --> 00:31:04.250 I don't know, 640 00:31:04.730 --> 00:31:06.931 we grow oilseed rape with vetch and clover. 641 00:31:06.971 --> 00:31:12.834 We grow triticale or rye with vetch. 642 00:31:13.534 --> 00:31:16.275 We grow peas with triticale. 643 00:31:16.475 --> 00:31:16.756 We know. 644 00:31:18.132 --> 00:31:18.772 just whatever, 645 00:31:19.032 --> 00:31:19.993 but it seems to work. 646 00:31:20.213 --> 00:31:20.413 And, 647 00:31:20.693 --> 00:31:20.933 you know, 648 00:31:20.953 --> 00:31:25.194 there's a cost with some of the companions for separation at the end, 649 00:31:25.334 --> 00:31:30.896 but that's a fraction of what we'd be spending on inputs to control pest and diseases. 650 00:31:30.956 --> 00:31:32.696 So just technically speaking, 651 00:31:32.736 --> 00:31:34.016 just to get to the bottom of this. 652 00:31:34.457 --> 00:31:35.237 So first of all, 653 00:31:35.238 --> 00:31:38.698 when you plant those mixed companion crops, 654 00:31:38.838 --> 00:31:42.759 do you just have a mix of the two seeds in your machine? 655 00:31:42.760 --> 00:31:46.060 Then you just plant them together at the same time with the same machine? 656 00:31:46.280 --> 00:31:46.440 Yeah. 657 00:31:46.864 --> 00:31:48.045 So we've got a disc drill, 658 00:31:48.325 --> 00:31:49.866 a sort of direct disc drill, 659 00:31:50.427 --> 00:31:52.568 so we can plant straight into a cover crop with this. 660 00:31:54.029 --> 00:31:55.090 It's got two hoppers in it, 661 00:31:55.790 --> 00:31:56.371 on the back of it, 662 00:31:56.411 --> 00:31:57.131 two seed hoppers. 663 00:31:57.291 --> 00:32:00.794 So we'll fill one with the cereal and the other one with the legume, 664 00:32:02.495 --> 00:32:05.857 calibrate the two systems accordingly, 665 00:32:05.997 --> 00:32:11.981 and then they both run down the same seed pipes and are drilled together. 666 00:32:12.001 --> 00:32:12.702 So we don't have, 667 00:32:13.623 --> 00:32:14.283 with our system, 668 00:32:14.284 --> 00:32:15.144 we don't have a row of... 669 00:32:16.088 --> 00:32:38.840 wheat and then a row of um vetch let's say um within that single drill row we've got vetch and wheat okay yeah in this case you said something like 200 what was it 200 kilos of of the grain and then like 40 50 of the so so what the machine will just automatically then plant one two three grains one legume one two three exactly kind of like that yeah yeah 670 00:32:39.360 --> 00:32:57.885 randomly yeah randomly randomly but kind of the ratio i mean i think there are drills now that in fact i know there were drills now that can plant um a row of wheat and then a row of beans and then a row of wheat and a row of beans or whatever but i don't know whether there's any benefit to doing that um maybe if you want to then take out the companion 671 00:32:58.365 --> 00:33:08.288 later in the season after it perhaps it's done the bulk of its good work so maybe you could run through with a hoe let's say an inter-row hoe that would take out the 672 00:33:09.216 --> 00:33:25.264 companion crop if you then didn't want the separation cost at the end of it but for us you know these these companions like the veg or the bean or whatever they're still they're valuable for us so we will separate ideally on farm or elsewhere and then take back the the 673 00:33:25.284 --> 00:33:34.228 companion seed and use it again so yeah so once once it's grown uh the both crops are ready to harvest at the same time right yeah so i guess you 674 00:33:34.448 --> 00:33:50.332 pick crops that grow at the same speed yeah a lot of people have asked me what do they mature together that's a big like puts the skids on a lot of people from because they're worried about um whatever ripening a lot or maturing a lot earlier than the other crop but growing 675 00:33:50.333 --> 00:34:03.576 up together they seem to just mature together and we just we've never had a problem they yeah we've they all seem to be both fit and ready to go we harvest them together and so you then end up with a grain store full of vegetables 676 00:34:04.228 --> 00:34:04.568 a mix. 677 00:34:06.629 --> 00:34:10.630 And as long as you grow species that are easily separable, 678 00:34:12.490 --> 00:34:12.730 you know, 679 00:34:12.731 --> 00:34:14.671 very different sized plants. 680 00:34:14.991 --> 00:34:17.052 Different sizes of seeds and grains. 681 00:34:17.672 --> 00:34:19.912 So the machine can easily kind of recognise the two sizes. 682 00:34:19.913 --> 00:34:20.353 Yeah. 683 00:34:20.354 --> 00:34:20.493 I mean, 684 00:34:20.494 --> 00:34:21.213 it costs around, 685 00:34:22.073 --> 00:34:22.293 for us, 686 00:34:22.353 --> 00:34:24.854 about £20 a tonne to separate. 687 00:34:25.174 --> 00:34:27.875 So you separate them on the farm? 688 00:34:27.895 --> 00:34:28.695 You have a machine for that? 689 00:34:28.715 --> 00:34:31.135 Or do you hire someone outside to do that? 690 00:34:32.136 --> 00:34:32.816 a bit of both 691 00:34:33.256 --> 00:34:37.859 We've got a machine on farm that's a little bit basic, 692 00:34:37.959 --> 00:34:40.580 but it has the ability to separate to some degree. 693 00:34:40.660 --> 00:34:41.701 But actually, 694 00:34:42.661 --> 00:34:43.062 generally, 695 00:34:43.142 --> 00:34:45.023 to do it properly for us, 696 00:34:45.423 --> 00:34:50.926 we haven't got the resources to spend somewhere in the region, 697 00:34:50.966 --> 00:34:53.988 between probably £50,000 to £100,000 on a... 698 00:34:54.702 --> 00:35:10.729 you know state-of-the-art seed separation system so we send them locally to a seed merchant he'll do it for us okay yeah um and and if we look a bit deeper into the finance of it all since you you know you have a background in finance i'm yeah i'm assuming that that you have some numbers maybe you could share um if 699 00:35:10.829 --> 00:35:22.254 we compare you know just a a wheat field in a field where you have this combination of different crops uh the different associated costs and benefits how does it compare 700 00:35:23.934 --> 00:35:27.777 So the way we're farming now, 701 00:35:28.397 --> 00:35:28.698 we're trying, 702 00:35:28.718 --> 00:35:29.078 as I said, 703 00:35:29.079 --> 00:35:32.721 to keep the cost below £600 a hectare all in. 704 00:35:34.001 --> 00:35:34.422 And, 705 00:35:35.362 --> 00:35:35.603 you know, 706 00:35:35.883 --> 00:35:36.483 we've removed... 707 00:35:37.504 --> 00:35:41.007 So we rely on quite a lot of organic manure that we apply, 708 00:35:43.408 --> 00:35:45.410 which is a lot cheaper than synthetic fertiliser. 709 00:35:45.510 --> 00:35:49.713 We've reduced our synthetic fertiliser input costs by about at least a half. 710 00:35:51.374 --> 00:35:52.415 we don't have the insecticide, 711 00:35:52.416 --> 00:35:52.955 the fungicide, 712 00:35:52.956 --> 00:35:53.915 the PGR costs. 713 00:35:54.176 --> 00:35:57.477 We try and home save almost always our seed, 714 00:35:58.018 --> 00:36:02.040 which is a lot cheaper than purchased seed from a seed merchant. 715 00:36:04.341 --> 00:36:05.682 And yield-wise, 716 00:36:06.002 --> 00:36:06.602 is that what you were... 717 00:36:07.323 --> 00:36:07.443 No, 718 00:36:07.723 --> 00:36:08.123 everything. 719 00:36:08.163 --> 00:36:08.283 So 720 00:36:09.063 --> 00:36:12.765 I guess you have extra expenses here in the case of manure, 721 00:36:12.785 --> 00:36:13.426 for example. 722 00:36:13.686 --> 00:36:13.806 Yeah. 723 00:36:14.366 --> 00:36:16.207 the seed separation, 724 00:36:16.987 --> 00:36:19.688 maybe the seeds themselves are more expensive for the legumes that they are. 725 00:36:19.689 --> 00:36:24.090 So there are extra costs and there's a whole range of benefits. 726 00:36:24.110 --> 00:36:28.532 And I'm kind of hoping you can give us a kind of a nice picture of how this compares. 727 00:36:28.812 --> 00:36:28.952 Yeah, 728 00:36:29.072 --> 00:36:29.313 I mean, 729 00:36:30.553 --> 00:36:32.314 because we will all, 730 00:36:32.434 --> 00:36:32.674 you know, 731 00:36:32.834 --> 00:36:33.314 by and large, 732 00:36:33.315 --> 00:36:34.555 we will home save our seeds. 733 00:36:34.595 --> 00:36:36.095 So for growing stuff, 734 00:36:36.156 --> 00:36:36.996 we'll have it separated. 735 00:36:37.016 --> 00:36:37.676 We'll take back, 736 00:36:38.737 --> 00:36:39.017 you know, 737 00:36:39.037 --> 00:36:40.838 one part of that and use it again the following year. 738 00:36:40.878 --> 00:36:40.998 you 739 00:36:42.470 --> 00:36:42.710 I mean, 740 00:36:42.730 --> 00:36:43.391 our seed costs, 741 00:36:43.871 --> 00:36:44.391 I think, 742 00:36:44.511 --> 00:36:45.232 I may be wrong here, 743 00:36:45.233 --> 00:36:46.893 but if you were to buy a ton of seed, 744 00:36:46.973 --> 00:36:48.994 a ton of wheat from a local merchant, 745 00:36:48.995 --> 00:36:51.096 you'd probably be looking for a modern-ish variety, 746 00:36:51.176 --> 00:36:54.118 maybe six or seven hundred pounds a ton for a bag of seed. 747 00:36:56.479 --> 00:36:56.720 I mean, 748 00:36:56.721 --> 00:37:04.124 the most we can achieve with some of the businesses who we're selling to for a price of a ton of wheat would be around 300 with wild farms. 749 00:37:04.144 --> 00:37:05.005 We'll come on to that probably. 750 00:37:06.862 --> 00:37:07.423 But otherwise, 751 00:37:07.424 --> 00:37:07.663 you know, 752 00:37:07.743 --> 00:37:10.004 commodity wheat price at the moment is around 200, 753 00:37:10.144 --> 00:37:10.545 even less, 754 00:37:10.546 --> 00:37:11.645 160 pounds a ton, 755 00:37:11.665 --> 00:37:11.926 I think. 756 00:37:11.966 --> 00:37:12.086 So, 757 00:37:13.487 --> 00:37:13.727 you know, 758 00:37:13.728 --> 00:37:14.587 if we home save, 759 00:37:15.528 --> 00:37:21.092 we're immediately at a big advantage to those buying treated seed often from a seed merchant. 760 00:37:23.373 --> 00:37:25.955 I think our yields going on to that, 761 00:37:26.035 --> 00:37:26.636 we probably, 762 00:37:26.716 --> 00:37:26.956 you know, 763 00:37:27.176 --> 00:37:29.718 our best yields at the moment are probably around six tons. 764 00:37:30.518 --> 00:37:32.760 And when you've taken out the legume element, 765 00:37:32.780 --> 00:37:33.881 let's say in a cereal crop, 766 00:37:33.981 --> 00:37:35.622 we're looking at around five tons of. 767 00:37:36.070 --> 00:37:52.064 cereal and a ton of legume um so um yeah margin wise we're we're significantly better off than a conventional grower we've still got five tons of clean seed um and 768 00:37:52.524 --> 00:38:03.794 and we've got and we've got the legume component to keep to either sell or to keep for for future use um and then you also reduce your costs in in fertilizers it's free nitrogen 769 00:38:04.306 --> 00:38:04.686 Yeah, 770 00:38:05.306 --> 00:38:06.987 so we're getting a big kick, 771 00:38:07.187 --> 00:38:08.967 a big leg up with the free nitrogen. 772 00:38:09.568 --> 00:38:09.808 I mean, 773 00:38:09.848 --> 00:38:10.168 I think, 774 00:38:10.348 --> 00:38:12.828 so the first year we reduced the nitrogen from, 775 00:38:12.888 --> 00:38:13.128 I mean, 776 00:38:13.529 --> 00:38:18.030 a conventional grower growing a milling wheat will use around 240 kilos of nitrogen. 777 00:38:18.870 --> 00:38:23.471 We're growing milling wheat with about 90 kilos of nitrogen, 778 00:38:23.472 --> 00:38:24.432 80, 779 00:38:24.472 --> 00:38:26.432 90 of synthetic nitrogen. 780 00:38:27.192 --> 00:38:29.353 And there's opportunity to probably reduce that further. 781 00:38:30.173 --> 00:38:30.373 But, 782 00:38:31.314 --> 00:38:31.894 you know, 783 00:38:31.895 --> 00:38:32.274 it's sort of... 784 00:38:32.954 --> 00:38:35.195 It baffles me when I talk to farmers like you, 785 00:38:35.235 --> 00:38:37.876 and I've spoken to quite a few farmers over the last couple of years. 786 00:38:40.097 --> 00:38:44.979 Farming in general and food production has been optimized to produce as much as possible for the lowest possible cost. 787 00:38:45.019 --> 00:38:45.459 But yet, 788 00:38:47.280 --> 00:38:52.582 I see that using certain methods of regenerative farming and here just companion planting, 789 00:38:53.322 --> 00:38:54.143 separating seeds, 790 00:38:54.783 --> 00:39:00.145 you can already save a lot on your costs and improve your revenue. 791 00:39:00.786 --> 00:39:00.906 So 792 00:39:01.246 --> 00:39:01.366 I'm... 793 00:39:01.906 --> 00:39:17.379 wondering sometimes why we're not seeing more farmers do that it seems like you know yeah i i'm with you it's just it's coming off that chemical sort of bandwagon or whatever you want to call it i it's hard to take that step off you've got a lot of you 794 00:39:17.380 --> 00:39:27.427 know a lot of farmers have a lot of conventional growers have got a guy selling them fertilizer a guy selling them chemicals whatever it might be they sit in the kitchen they have a coffee with them and chat and they consider of them, 795 00:39:27.707 --> 00:39:27.947 you know, 796 00:39:29.548 --> 00:39:31.370 they're friends often and it's 797 00:39:32.834 --> 00:39:50.166 it's quite hard it really is hard to take that step away from that and just and and actually maybe some growers just you know they've got they've got they're bringing money in from somewhere else so they diversify whether it's solar whether it's commercial um buildings on the commercial letting you 798 00:39:50.167 --> 00:40:02.354 know that's propping up a failing arable business so sometimes it's quite easy to sort of think you know we're not making any money out of the arable side but actually it doesn't really matter so much because we've got a bit of a 799 00:40:02.534 --> 00:40:08.713 good income here but um and often farmers you know farmers are busy busy people generally and and um 800 00:40:10.417 --> 00:40:13.520 And it's quite easy to spend a lot of time working hard, 801 00:40:13.560 --> 00:40:14.200 sitting on the tractor, 802 00:40:14.240 --> 00:40:18.304 doing stuff and not taking a step back and actually looking at the figures and thinking, 803 00:40:20.766 --> 00:40:21.006 you know, 804 00:40:21.066 --> 00:40:23.007 thinking about change and working out how to do it. 805 00:40:23.008 --> 00:40:24.909 And maybe that was a benefit for me in 2018. 806 00:40:24.929 --> 00:40:27.111 I had at least six months, 807 00:40:27.191 --> 00:40:27.731 maybe longer, 808 00:40:27.791 --> 00:40:32.715 where I was pretty much out of the business, 809 00:40:33.196 --> 00:40:33.676 recovering. 810 00:40:34.016 --> 00:40:38.960 And it just afforded me an opportunity to look at it with. 811 00:40:39.865 --> 00:40:56.052 new eyes and and and take a different perspective on things right okay um yeah i sort of interrupted you a little bit you were talking about the whole system uh your whole farming system and then we stopped at a companion planting because i wanted to know more about that but maybe you could continue from there yeah 812 00:40:56.212 --> 00:41:08.777 so um beyond that we we we still we we've now in the last couple years we we've um one of the guys on the farm is really interested in well both of them actually but they're interested in and 813 00:41:09.281 --> 00:41:22.550 more livestock on the farm so we we purchased together um a um a red pole which is a suffolk it's a sort of native um breed um and uh so we've got about now about 814 00:41:22.930 --> 00:41:33.357 40 uh red pole beef animals that we're looking to move around the farm in a sort of mob grazing um technique um we've got um 815 00:41:34.413 --> 00:41:35.394 We've still got the flying flock, 816 00:41:35.514 --> 00:41:36.015 Richard and 817 00:41:36.415 --> 00:41:38.677 Katie's flying flock of sheep that come on the land. 818 00:41:39.237 --> 00:41:45.262 And we've also got a very small free-range hen business. 819 00:41:45.302 --> 00:41:47.244 And as we saw this morning, 820 00:41:47.904 --> 00:41:50.266 we built this little egg mobile thing, 821 00:41:51.107 --> 00:41:53.088 and we move them every three days around the farm. 822 00:41:53.429 --> 00:41:55.050 So they're on fresh ground all the time, 823 00:41:55.090 --> 00:41:59.774 and we're working with some nice local businesses to supply them with eggs and so on. 824 00:42:00.674 --> 00:42:00.795 So, 825 00:42:01.155 --> 00:42:01.495 yeah, 826 00:42:01.715 --> 00:42:03.056 we've had some livestock integration. 827 00:42:03.961 --> 00:42:05.903 And actually going just quickly on that point, 828 00:42:07.204 --> 00:42:07.344 in, 829 00:42:08.045 --> 00:42:08.385 when was it, 830 00:42:08.386 --> 00:42:09.066 2021, 831 00:42:09.086 --> 00:42:09.346 I think, 832 00:42:09.386 --> 00:42:09.626 when we, 833 00:42:10.207 --> 00:42:14.150 at the time we were just grazing the cover crops with our neighbour's sheep. 834 00:42:14.911 --> 00:42:15.371 And then we thought, 835 00:42:15.372 --> 00:42:15.491 no, 836 00:42:15.852 --> 00:42:19.295 maybe we'll try grazing some winter cereal, 837 00:42:19.315 --> 00:42:19.535 you know, 838 00:42:19.615 --> 00:42:21.677 quite a forward winter cereal in February, 839 00:42:21.757 --> 00:42:22.277 March time. 840 00:42:23.138 --> 00:42:27.562 So we got them to bring their animals on and they grazed our winter cereal, 841 00:42:27.602 --> 00:42:28.463 a winter wheat crop, 842 00:42:28.543 --> 00:42:29.064 quite hard. 843 00:42:29.944 --> 00:42:30.064 So... 844 00:42:31.761 --> 00:42:48.475 they were acting a bit of doing some plant growth regulation eating some diseased leaf leaves we were getting some um free manure on the land um wait so your crop is still growing there yeah yeah the stock the crops still growing still growing and then you put the sheeps in and they don't destroy at all your your crops they just know no 845 00:42:48.615 --> 00:43:00.105 so they ate it down you have to be a bit controlled i mean you don't want them to graze it really hard but this it was actually 2022 uh beginning of 2022 and it was a very um it was pretty warm spring 846 00:43:00.509 --> 00:43:21.805 um very warm actually and um and the crop was actually growing growing away in february march and the sheep were on here on this 30 hectare field um the crop was probably maybe eight inches tall a winter cereal um and we allowed them to graze it down to maybe two to three inches and we did a you know we were quite strict they had um fairly 847 00:43:21.885 --> 00:43:27.669 tight areas to graze and they were moved fairly regularly across the field anyway they came off the field and within um 848 00:43:29.217 --> 00:43:30.158 Within a week or two, 849 00:43:30.238 --> 00:43:30.678 the crop, 850 00:43:31.419 --> 00:43:31.659 you know, 851 00:43:31.660 --> 00:43:35.341 the last areas that they'd been on had totally recovered and was growing away. 852 00:43:35.521 --> 00:43:35.721 And, 853 00:43:37.042 --> 00:43:37.262 you know, 854 00:43:37.263 --> 00:43:37.723 if you went on, 855 00:43:37.743 --> 00:43:39.724 if you looked at that field two or three weeks after they'd left it, 856 00:43:40.004 --> 00:43:40.845 you wouldn't see any, 857 00:43:40.846 --> 00:43:41.966 it just looked like a normal week, 858 00:43:42.106 --> 00:43:43.066 ungrazed wheat crop. 859 00:43:43.627 --> 00:43:44.207 But that crop, 860 00:43:45.188 --> 00:43:51.892 that field then yielded at harvest two tonnes a hectare more than any of the other winter wheat fields on the farm. 861 00:43:52.913 --> 00:43:58.777 noticeably different crop soil types had the same treatment otherwise but it just had 862 00:43:59.057 --> 00:44:22.944 grazing in the winter um early spring and it and it was incredible and did that cost you anything no they paid us for the great they paid us a bit of money for for the for the food for the winter food so we were like right okay uh so the new policy then from uh was right they'll graze cover crops they'll graze catch crops you know the crops the covers we put in between harvest and october when we made some winter cereals but 863 00:44:22.964 --> 00:44:26.905 also they'll graze any winter sown crop be it rape um 864 00:44:27.385 --> 00:44:28.265 Or a winter cereal. 865 00:44:28.625 --> 00:44:44.792 um they will graze it in the wintertime so we have sheep on the land from early october right through until until march even later sometimes and you know their their um their effect can't cannot be underestimated i mean there's 866 00:44:44.793 --> 00:44:57.597 a guy in gloucestershire ed horton who's a big quite a big social media kind of guy and um he talks about it quite a lot the the benefits of of of grazing on on you know regulating growth on these on these 867 00:44:58.061 --> 00:45:03.829 often quite lush crops that then attract potentially disease so you're getting the sheep 868 00:45:04.675 --> 00:45:20.166 doing some growth regulation and also some disease eating disease leaves so you then end up when the plant begins to grow again it's just fires up new perfectly green um leaves and um you know any disease issues have been um mitigated basically so it's 869 00:45:20.167 --> 00:45:25.871 a great thing it's amazing so yeah we walked onto the the livestock yeah the livestock 870 00:45:26.391 --> 00:45:26.631 Okay, 871 00:45:26.731 --> 00:45:27.071 keep going. 872 00:45:27.211 --> 00:45:27.392 Yeah, 873 00:45:27.472 --> 00:45:27.892 so the light, 874 00:45:27.972 --> 00:45:28.492 so yeah, 875 00:45:28.552 --> 00:45:29.233 and actually this year, 876 00:45:29.313 --> 00:45:30.173 so we got the red poll, 877 00:45:30.353 --> 00:45:31.534 the beef animals a couple of years ago, 878 00:45:31.535 --> 00:45:33.955 and actually so far they've just been on herbal lays. 879 00:45:34.115 --> 00:45:38.398 They've been on some cover crops and grassland we've got on the farm. 880 00:45:38.399 --> 00:45:39.698 But actually what we're looking to do this year, 881 00:45:39.699 --> 00:45:40.559 I've been looking quite a lot of, 882 00:45:41.139 --> 00:45:43.080 reading a bit about mob grazing and the proper, 883 00:45:43.081 --> 00:45:43.520 you know, 884 00:45:43.521 --> 00:45:44.081 the benefits. 885 00:45:44.901 --> 00:45:47.082 And we just need to get the infrastructure in place. 886 00:45:47.083 --> 00:45:48.163 But the plan this year is to, 887 00:45:49.063 --> 00:45:50.044 when conditions allow, 888 00:45:50.104 --> 00:45:51.065 so when it's not too wet, 889 00:45:51.165 --> 00:45:53.506 is to allow possibly some of the animals, 890 00:45:53.746 --> 00:45:54.747 well the beef herd 891 00:45:55.767 --> 00:46:03.130 on some of the forward winter crops and just move them pretty fast across and just see what happens. 892 00:46:03.370 --> 00:46:03.590 I mean, 893 00:46:03.951 --> 00:46:04.311 I get it. 894 00:46:04.312 --> 00:46:05.751 It's not for everyone on the heavier land. 895 00:46:06.232 --> 00:46:08.012 In wet conditions, 896 00:46:08.032 --> 00:46:09.073 you probably don't want animals, 897 00:46:09.613 --> 00:46:11.334 particularly cows on the field, 898 00:46:12.554 --> 00:46:13.695 but I think it could work for us. 899 00:46:13.795 --> 00:46:14.975 And the great thing with sheep, 900 00:46:15.015 --> 00:46:15.295 you know, 901 00:46:16.636 --> 00:46:17.376 they're pretty light. 902 00:46:17.396 --> 00:46:19.537 Their footfall's not really that noticeable, 903 00:46:19.597 --> 00:46:21.558 so it works well for us. 904 00:46:21.798 --> 00:46:22.579 And so you're getting the... 905 00:46:24.003 --> 00:46:24.944 Some yield benefit, 906 00:46:25.044 --> 00:46:26.725 you're getting free manure, 907 00:46:27.205 --> 00:46:27.726 fertilizer, 908 00:46:27.966 --> 00:46:28.807 and you're also getting, 909 00:46:29.007 --> 00:46:29.247 you know, 910 00:46:29.587 --> 00:46:30.528 we get paid to do it. 911 00:46:30.548 --> 00:46:32.069 So I think generally the cost of, 912 00:46:32.830 --> 00:46:34.971 we'll get paid by the sheep people for the feed. 913 00:46:35.812 --> 00:46:36.252 And the cost, 914 00:46:36.312 --> 00:46:38.814 the payment we get for them generally covers some of our, 915 00:46:39.154 --> 00:46:40.235 if we have to buy seed, 916 00:46:40.315 --> 00:46:41.636 any cover crop seed or whatever, 917 00:46:41.836 --> 00:46:43.117 which we do sometimes have to do, 918 00:46:44.938 --> 00:46:45.979 that's generally covered by, 919 00:46:46.159 --> 00:46:48.121 and also sometimes the cost of the drill, 920 00:46:48.241 --> 00:46:49.121 the pass for the drill. 921 00:46:49.342 --> 00:46:49.462 So, 922 00:46:49.542 --> 00:46:51.143 and that's covered by the... 923 00:46:51.383 --> 00:47:08.458 by the sheep so it's a win-win yeah definitely so a lot of them the experts i spoke to in the last few days they told me that for them the ideal type of farming obviously depends on the context but in many cases is mixed farming a blend of arable permanent 924 00:47:08.678 --> 00:47:09.579 permanent uh 925 00:47:09.939 --> 00:47:29.184 crops like tree crops yeah and then integration of animals and well it seems like you you've gotten there already right you walked into the field this morning what i saw was um strips kind of like for arable fields lines of trees every was it 24 meters yeah yeah and now you're talking about integrating well sheep chickens 926 00:47:29.304 --> 00:47:38.507 and and yeah right yeah right yeah it's it's um so that what we looked at this morning was an agroforestry scheme that we put in in um 927 00:47:39.939 --> 00:47:40.579 A couple of years ago, 928 00:47:41.219 --> 00:47:42.500 I've always been interested, 929 00:47:42.540 --> 00:47:43.280 as I said earlier, 930 00:47:43.320 --> 00:47:47.901 in putting in some environmental measures on the farm, 931 00:47:48.361 --> 00:47:49.662 doing some environmental stewardship. 932 00:47:50.822 --> 00:47:53.143 We farm around an old airbase. 933 00:47:53.144 --> 00:47:55.424 So where you went this morning, 934 00:47:55.444 --> 00:47:55.864 Raphael, 935 00:47:55.865 --> 00:47:57.064 if we'd carried on a bit further, 936 00:47:58.224 --> 00:47:59.945 it was an old Second World War American airbase. 937 00:48:00.005 --> 00:48:01.165 It's pretty exposed up there. 938 00:48:02.786 --> 00:48:03.586 There's not too much, 939 00:48:03.846 --> 00:48:04.746 not many trees, 940 00:48:04.786 --> 00:48:05.486 not many hedgerows. 941 00:48:05.487 --> 00:48:05.686 I mean, 942 00:48:05.706 --> 00:48:06.547 we've planted over the years. 943 00:48:07.507 --> 00:48:24.952 put in a lot of lot of hedgerows we planted quite a few trees um along the edges of fields but we felt agroforestry always interested me actually putting trees in the field and the benefits that that can bring and um so yeah i started looking into this about three years ago we went to a few far some 944 00:48:26.152 --> 00:48:35.155 forward-thinking guys in the uk stephen briggs up in near peterborough he's he's he's done i think he's he put in a silvo arable agroforestry scheme about um 945 00:48:36.355 --> 00:48:51.739 late 80s i think it was wakelands which is close to us in suffolk similar sort of time you know they're kind of real trade blazers trailblazers in that world and um yeah and it was something i wanted to do just to just change the landscape really a bit um and so we got 946 00:48:51.779 --> 00:49:04.943 some help locally with a really good guy um sam who who came on board and he's been our bit of our go between between the woodland trust who have been a massive help to us um in in 947 00:49:05.647 --> 00:49:20.657 implementing this um and ourselves and um so what we looked at this morning was a 13 hectare field um we looked at some you know the suggestion is that to plant in a north south um axis 948 00:49:20.717 --> 00:49:30.443 so you can so the cash crop that you grow between your trees doesn't get shaded out too much um and and then it was really 949 00:49:31.751 --> 00:49:35.172 We were looking to try and work the scheme well with how we were farming, 950 00:49:35.192 --> 00:49:36.292 so the size of our kit. 951 00:49:36.492 --> 00:49:43.754 So how we've done it on the farm is we've planted four metre rows of a sort of pollen and nectar legume type mix, 952 00:49:44.935 --> 00:49:46.855 and then 24 metres of a cash crop, 953 00:49:47.295 --> 00:49:49.936 and then another four metre strip of pollen and nectar. 954 00:49:50.416 --> 00:49:52.117 And in the four metre strip of pollen and nectar, 955 00:49:52.177 --> 00:49:53.497 we've then been planting our trees. 956 00:49:53.817 --> 00:49:56.278 So they're protected either side by a two metre sort of buffer. 957 00:49:57.378 --> 00:49:59.699 And with the 24 meters of cash crop. 958 00:50:00.419 --> 00:50:02.140 Our sprayer is 24 meters wide, 959 00:50:02.141 --> 00:50:03.401 our drill is 4 meters wide, 960 00:50:04.181 --> 00:50:05.062 combine around 8. 961 00:50:05.642 --> 00:50:07.103 So it sort of works for the kit. 962 00:50:07.343 --> 00:50:09.524 And I would definitely make sure you work, 963 00:50:10.045 --> 00:50:10.945 if you're going to do it, 964 00:50:11.325 --> 00:50:18.669 my advice would be make sure that the cash crop is significantly wide to work for your equipment. 965 00:50:19.970 --> 00:50:21.271 And with regards to your... 966 00:50:22.230 --> 00:50:38.819 your strip where the tree within which the trees sit um my view is and having spoken to other people is that four meters is probably the minimum width that you want to do to to allow the trees and the roots to kind of get going without interference um so 967 00:50:38.859 --> 00:50:49.865 yeah we put that in and we with the trees we went for with sam's help was you know he was like what do you want to grow what and diversity is for me diversity uh in the arable crop and in anything that i do i like 968 00:50:50.305 --> 00:50:50.805 I'm kind of, 969 00:50:50.926 --> 00:50:51.346 that's key. 970 00:50:52.186 --> 00:50:54.728 So what we've decided is we've planted four rows of, 971 00:50:56.529 --> 00:50:58.911 which are in a sort of short rotation coppice system. 972 00:50:59.591 --> 00:51:00.532 So in those rows, 973 00:51:00.592 --> 00:51:02.333 we've predominantly gone with hazel and willow, 974 00:51:02.393 --> 00:51:09.578 but we've also put in some sweet chestnuts and walnut and one or two other sort of native trees. 975 00:51:10.178 --> 00:51:12.060 And then in the every other row, 976 00:51:12.100 --> 00:51:14.801 we've gone with a fruit and nut row and we've gone with a real mix. 977 00:51:14.922 --> 00:51:19.325 We've gone with two or three different apple types. 978 00:51:19.385 --> 00:51:20.305 We've gone with plums. 979 00:51:21.610 --> 00:51:36.881 quince cherry um green gauge apricot um and then with the nuts we've gone with almond again some more sweet chestnut and i think some more walnuts i've yeah a lot of diversity and we've we've rather 980 00:51:36.882 --> 00:51:50.650 than kind of a block of apples and then a block of something else we've actually just i'm pretty sure in our agroforestry there's no tree two trees that stand together um that are the same yeah so a real mix and i get often get asked what the hell are you going to do when you Come to- 981 00:51:50.790 --> 00:52:14.365 pick them exactly my next question here which is um yeah which is a valid point and um yeah i mean we we've spoken when i talked about this putting in this system i spoke to some local businesses we've got a local farm shop a few miles away and they're really interested in taking our fruit so we do have an outlet for that but and with the nuts similarly we have an outlet um but 982 00:52:14.366 --> 00:52:15.326 when it comes down to picking 983 00:52:16.138 --> 00:52:17.038 I'm not sure at the moment. 984 00:52:17.058 --> 00:52:17.258 I mean, 985 00:52:17.259 --> 00:52:18.679 it may be my children's problem. 986 00:52:19.979 --> 00:52:20.759 I'm joking about that. 987 00:52:20.779 --> 00:52:20.899 But, 988 00:52:20.900 --> 00:52:21.119 you know, 989 00:52:22.080 --> 00:52:24.260 it takes a long time for this five, 990 00:52:24.280 --> 00:52:31.342 maybe 10 years for the system to really get going and start producing fruits and nuts and stuff. 991 00:52:31.442 --> 00:52:31.662 But 992 00:52:33.203 --> 00:52:36.104 I'm hoping maybe some volunteers. 993 00:52:36.444 --> 00:52:36.984 We might look, 994 00:52:37.044 --> 00:52:39.305 apart from supplying farm shops and so on, 995 00:52:39.306 --> 00:52:40.845 we might look at a pick and, 996 00:52:41.865 --> 00:52:42.105 you know, 997 00:52:42.786 --> 00:52:43.266 what do you call it? 998 00:52:43.267 --> 00:52:43.946 I am. 999 00:52:46.862 --> 00:53:10.258 self-picking kind of yeah you come and pick or we we pick and then we maybe press a load of stuff and and sell some juice i i don't really know i mean it's yeah right it's a problem that's gonna yeah it's something it's an ongoing concern but uh but the priority was really put on on the health of the system on biodiversity and the diversity of trees yeah exactly and then the yeah and with the coppicing road just to go back to those that 1000 00:53:10.318 --> 00:53:15.742 lot we've got two wood chip boilers on the farm we're currently buying in wood chip 1001 00:53:16.274 --> 00:53:34.242 elsewhere and so um you know those hazels and those willows we can chip up and use in our wood chip boilers okay as well as for composting as well as for um maybe for hedge laying as well they're both both those species are good for for hedge laying um which we're trying to do a bit more of on the farm so that 1002 00:53:34.302 --> 00:53:43.326 they're gonna that's going to be useful for for many different things that you know that's just yeah just just uh for to make sure everyone's on board what do we mean by coppicing. 1003 00:53:43.386 --> 00:53:43.506 So, 1004 00:53:43.507 --> 00:53:43.986 um, 1005 00:53:44.578 --> 00:53:47.641 Probably when the plants get to probably 10 foot tall, 1006 00:53:47.941 --> 00:53:49.662 we will go through and we'll cut the plant, 1007 00:53:50.143 --> 00:53:52.464 cut those trees at almost ground level, 1008 00:53:52.484 --> 00:53:53.785 a few inches above ground level. 1009 00:53:55.947 --> 00:53:57.288 And then we'll remove the, 1010 00:53:57.589 --> 00:53:57.829 you know, 1011 00:53:57.869 --> 00:54:03.453 what we've cut for whatever we want to use it for, 1012 00:54:03.733 --> 00:54:05.055 as discussed a short while ago. 1013 00:54:05.615 --> 00:54:09.478 And then that plant will just shoot again from base level and get going again. 1014 00:54:09.498 --> 00:54:10.979 So it's just a continuum, 1015 00:54:11.039 --> 00:54:11.199 really. 1016 00:54:11.219 --> 00:54:12.020 It just keeps going. 1017 00:54:12.140 --> 00:54:13.902 It's a pretty good generation for biomass. 1018 00:54:14.462 --> 00:54:37.175 yeah yeah for biomass for wood chip for composting um and for hedge laying really or our three three markets for that the the fruit trees and fruit and nut trees did you um select certain varieties that uh are ripe at the you know at the same time for for harvesting or did you know that is the duration and the way you so so the great thing in the uk and i don't know how long this will run, 1019 00:54:37.235 --> 00:54:38.796 but currently the Woodland Trust, 1020 00:54:40.777 --> 00:54:41.138 we... 1021 00:54:42.050 --> 00:54:42.891 You can do it privately, 1022 00:54:42.892 --> 00:54:44.092 you can do it off your own back, 1023 00:54:44.132 --> 00:54:44.392 you know, 1024 00:54:44.912 --> 00:54:45.853 pay for everything yourself, 1025 00:54:45.913 --> 00:54:50.437 but actually we approached the Woodland Trust and they've been really helpful. 1026 00:54:50.737 --> 00:54:51.498 They came out, 1027 00:54:51.499 --> 00:54:58.884 they looked at our proposals and they approved our scheme and they've supplied us with everything by the labour. 1028 00:54:58.924 --> 00:54:59.725 So that's trees, 1029 00:55:00.906 --> 00:55:01.987 guards around the trees, 1030 00:55:03.968 --> 00:55:04.649 wooden stakes, 1031 00:55:05.570 --> 00:55:06.591 fasteners and so on. 1032 00:55:07.752 --> 00:55:09.233 And they're really good trees too, 1033 00:55:09.273 --> 00:55:09.873 but they have to be 1034 00:55:11.450 --> 00:55:18.045 native trees you know rootstock native rootstock or um or native trees so um so yeah um 1035 00:55:19.197 --> 00:55:24.539 We've been following their guidelines and they've been working with us. 1036 00:55:24.639 --> 00:55:26.540 And so all we have to pay for it is the labour. 1037 00:55:26.541 --> 00:55:27.821 And that's not to be underestimated. 1038 00:55:27.841 --> 00:55:29.161 It takes a huge amount. 1039 00:55:29.201 --> 00:55:34.283 And we planted two or three thousand trees in that field that we looked at this morning. 1040 00:55:34.343 --> 00:55:35.824 And not only is the planting, 1041 00:55:36.704 --> 00:55:36.925 you know, 1042 00:55:36.945 --> 00:55:38.025 not only have you got to plant the tree, 1043 00:55:38.905 --> 00:55:44.668 we put a wood chip mulch around the base of all those trees to act as a weed suppressor and also to try and hold the moisture underneath. 1044 00:55:46.489 --> 00:55:46.769 And then... 1045 00:55:48.177 --> 00:56:05.513 four posts with the fruit and nut trees four posts one one to attach the tree to and then three posts in a sort of triangular shape around that tree about a meter apart each post with a with a sort of waist high sorry a chest high maybe four foot high um plastic 1046 00:56:05.714 --> 00:56:13.561 and netting around to try and prevent deer um and whatever else from eating those trees and deer are a big problem for us so um yeah 1047 00:56:14.533 --> 00:56:15.794 So the Woodland Trust have been amazing. 1048 00:56:16.574 --> 00:56:17.074 But other people, 1049 00:56:17.075 --> 00:56:17.294 you know, 1050 00:56:17.295 --> 00:56:18.114 you can do it privately, 1051 00:56:18.134 --> 00:56:18.834 you can do it yourself. 1052 00:56:20.215 --> 00:56:22.455 I have a very small favor to ask. 1053 00:56:22.755 --> 00:56:26.857 If you enjoy listening to the Deep Seat podcast and you find this interesting and meaningful, 1054 00:56:27.277 --> 00:56:29.357 then please support me and my work. 1055 00:56:29.358 --> 00:56:33.098 And you can actually do that in just five seconds by clicking on the like button, 1056 00:56:33.759 --> 00:56:34.839 on the subscribe button, 1057 00:56:34.959 --> 00:56:37.900 and maybe leave us a message in the comment section. 1058 00:56:38.260 --> 00:56:42.141 It actually makes a huge difference for me and it allows me to continue doing this work. 1059 00:56:42.161 --> 00:56:42.281 So. 1060 00:56:43.021 --> 00:56:44.282 Thank you so much in advance. 1061 00:56:44.402 --> 00:56:45.462 I really appreciate it. 1062 00:56:45.642 --> 00:56:45.923 Thank you. 1063 00:56:46.343 --> 00:56:47.563 So the Woodland Trust, 1064 00:56:49.024 --> 00:56:49.465 who are they? 1065 00:56:50.945 --> 00:56:51.966 Are they government funded? 1066 00:56:52.006 --> 00:56:54.067 Because you said that they provided all of this for free, 1067 00:56:54.127 --> 00:56:56.008 so I suppose someone must pay for that? 1068 00:56:57.109 --> 00:56:57.229 No, 1069 00:56:57.329 --> 00:56:58.890 they're a charity, 1070 00:56:59.510 --> 00:56:59.730 right? 1071 00:56:59.810 --> 00:57:11.997 A large charity with the aim to protect ancient woodland and also to basically encourage a lot more tree and hedge planting. 1072 00:57:13.057 --> 00:57:23.860 around the UK and I don't know when it all began but they're they're a great organization and and you know they're fully behind agroforestry schemes among many other schemes but they 1073 00:57:24.940 --> 00:57:28.481 I feel now that agroforestry is becoming more sort of popular in the UK and 1074 00:57:29.481 --> 00:57:42.565 I don't know how how long that support is going to be there so my advice to any other growers would be you know if they want to go down this route is is get on with it because you know it's not cheap to to if you to do it off your own back it's not it's not a cheap 1075 00:57:43.165 --> 00:57:59.032 excursion so you know to have them behind me is fantastic and the other great thing with them is you know we've had some tree losses over the last year or two with drought and whatever else and they've kindly replaced any any lost lost trees which is fantastic it 1076 00:57:59.033 --> 00:58:06.435 is fantastic so that they've paid for the trees for the equipment around the trees obviously then you you then have to deal with those trees and to, 1077 00:58:07.316 --> 00:58:08.116 how much work is that? 1078 00:58:10.453 --> 00:58:11.093 So the pruning, 1079 00:58:12.514 --> 00:58:13.454 actually we've done a bit of pruning, 1080 00:58:13.455 --> 00:58:15.595 but about a day's work currently. 1081 00:58:16.455 --> 00:58:17.815 So not too onerous. 1082 00:58:17.875 --> 00:58:18.135 I mean, 1083 00:58:18.355 --> 00:58:23.157 one of the things we're looking to do this year is probably to remulch a lot of the trees. 1084 00:58:24.777 --> 00:58:26.298 And again, 1085 00:58:26.318 --> 00:58:27.318 that's going to take a bit of time, 1086 00:58:28.338 --> 00:58:29.839 a few days work for an individual, 1087 00:58:29.859 --> 00:58:30.139 I think. 1088 00:58:31.019 --> 00:58:31.780 How many trees do you have? 1089 00:58:32.500 --> 00:58:36.541 There's about two and a half thousand in that field. 1090 00:58:37.912 --> 00:58:38.032 But, 1091 00:58:38.033 --> 00:58:38.252 you know, 1092 00:58:38.253 --> 00:58:39.132 the coppice ball trees, 1093 00:58:39.232 --> 00:58:41.413 we just leave them to their own devices for the time being. 1094 00:58:42.653 --> 00:58:42.913 You know, 1095 00:58:42.933 --> 00:58:43.654 there will come a point, 1096 00:58:43.674 --> 00:58:43.894 obviously, 1097 00:58:43.934 --> 00:58:45.954 when we have to coppice them five, 1098 00:58:45.974 --> 00:58:46.354 ten years' 1099 00:58:46.355 --> 00:58:46.594 time. 1100 00:58:46.595 --> 00:58:47.215 But at the moment, 1101 00:58:47.335 --> 00:58:48.915 it's just leave them to it. 1102 00:58:49.295 --> 00:58:49.455 Okay, 1103 00:58:49.555 --> 00:58:49.775 five, 1104 00:58:49.776 --> 00:58:50.075 ten years' 1105 00:58:50.095 --> 00:58:50.295 time. 1106 00:58:50.296 --> 00:58:53.356 So you just let them grow it and one day you're just going to come and just completely… 1107 00:58:53.796 --> 00:58:53.916 Yeah, 1108 00:58:54.036 --> 00:58:54.617 and that's probably… 1109 00:58:55.637 --> 00:58:58.018 I'm sure that could probably be done mechanically. 1110 00:58:58.038 --> 00:58:58.998 I haven't looked into it, 1111 00:58:59.038 --> 00:59:00.378 but I'm sure there's some good… 1112 00:59:01.158 --> 00:59:01.839 Maybe a good… 1113 00:59:01.979 --> 00:59:02.699 Apart from a chain… 1114 00:59:02.759 --> 00:59:02.999 Obviously, 1115 00:59:03.000 --> 00:59:03.519 a chainsaw, 1116 00:59:03.539 --> 00:59:04.539 but something a bit more… 1117 00:59:04.779 --> 00:59:06.580 A bit quicker than would be available to… 1118 00:59:06.740 --> 00:59:25.554 to do that something on the back of a tractor perhaps that can you'd imagine there there would be ways to do that fairly efficiently compared to pruning a tree carefully choosing which uh which branches you want to keep or not and so on it takes almost like a specific expert on that yeah but this is you know the whole thing it's 1119 00:59:25.594 --> 00:59:33.980 gonna you know it's a long-term um investment really and objective um i think Thank you. 1120 00:59:34.316 --> 00:59:50.469 I'm hoping in time that the trees where we where we allow our beef animals at the moment there's not much shade and I've suddenly realized that actually shading is really really important for animals to because yeah obviously in the summer and baking hot we 1121 00:59:50.489 --> 00:59:59.256 have got some areas where there's some trees but a lot of the places that they go there isn't the shade and also for the chickens you know they like scratching around under 1122 01:00:00.096 --> 01:00:15.083 under trees and i was listening to something recently a guy was saying that he's seeing significant increase in productivity with his free-range hens when they're in a wooded environment it's more natural for them they feel they don't worry about predators or 1123 01:00:15.263 --> 01:00:26.468 anything from above and they just they just perform better so um it's really about thinking systemically right and you have all of these different parts of your system and they all can complement each other and feed into each other. 1124 01:00:26.648 --> 01:00:26.808 Yeah. 1125 01:00:26.968 --> 01:00:27.208 And the, 1126 01:00:27.948 --> 01:00:30.789 The whole becomes much greater than the sum of the parts. 1127 01:00:30.790 --> 01:00:30.929 Yeah, 1128 01:00:31.269 --> 01:00:31.649 exactly. 1129 01:00:31.709 --> 01:00:32.189 It's way more, 1130 01:00:32.329 --> 01:00:32.549 you know, 1131 01:00:32.550 --> 01:00:33.890 it's just more interesting as well. 1132 01:00:33.930 --> 01:00:35.770 It gives you more joy. 1133 01:00:35.910 --> 01:00:36.550 I love, 1134 01:00:37.231 --> 01:00:37.491 you know, 1135 01:00:37.951 --> 01:00:38.491 I love seeing, 1136 01:00:39.271 --> 01:00:40.171 one of the guys on the farm, 1137 01:00:40.211 --> 01:00:42.652 who's kind of quite a keen sort of bird man, 1138 01:00:43.112 --> 01:00:44.473 when he joined us or a year in, 1139 01:00:44.493 --> 01:00:44.853 he said, 1140 01:00:45.913 --> 01:00:46.173 he said, 1141 01:00:46.193 --> 01:00:46.613 this place, 1142 01:00:46.614 --> 01:00:46.873 he said, 1143 01:00:47.153 --> 01:00:50.054 you've just got more of the species, 1144 01:00:50.454 --> 01:00:52.275 the farmland birds that I see on other farms. 1145 01:00:52.435 --> 01:00:52.975 And you've also, 1146 01:00:53.095 --> 01:00:56.276 I'm seeing birds I've never seen before elsewhere here, 1147 01:00:56.456 --> 01:00:57.036 which is just... 1148 01:00:57.988 --> 01:01:13.014 very empowering it's nice to hear yeah so i know we're doing right for wildlife it's just yeah do you also see and feel that the the differences yeah i mean yeah i do i mean i see um we definitely got more hairs than than you 1149 01:01:13.015 --> 01:01:27.120 know um do you get yeah you get hairs of course you do in europe yeah yeah um so i'm saying i see a lot more hairs um than i used to see we're seeing more gray partridge around them we used to see in fact um a guy who i do a bit of work with um he 1150 01:01:27.588 --> 01:01:31.130 He was talking to his wife a couple of weeks ago and they were talking about grey partridge. 1151 01:01:31.150 --> 01:01:33.751 It's quite an endangered species in the UK. 1152 01:01:33.811 --> 01:01:34.751 You don't see many of them. 1153 01:01:35.211 --> 01:01:36.212 And this guy said to his wife, 1154 01:01:36.213 --> 01:01:38.353 he said he was coming up here a few days later. 1155 01:01:38.354 --> 01:01:40.073 He said to his wife, 1156 01:01:40.093 --> 01:01:43.275 I know where I'll see some English partridge and which are the grey partridge. 1157 01:01:44.275 --> 01:01:46.856 And he arrived and we were standing on the edge of a field chatting. 1158 01:01:46.876 --> 01:01:47.196 And this, 1159 01:01:48.737 --> 01:01:48.977 you know, 1160 01:01:49.317 --> 01:01:51.378 group of maybe eight of them got up in front of us. 1161 01:01:51.418 --> 01:01:52.398 And he was just like, 1162 01:01:52.458 --> 01:01:53.599 it gave him a lot of pleasure. 1163 01:01:53.659 --> 01:01:54.079 And me too. 1164 01:01:54.979 --> 01:01:55.340 Amazing. 1165 01:01:55.640 --> 01:01:55.780 Yeah, 1166 01:01:55.840 --> 01:01:55.960 yeah. 1167 01:01:56.780 --> 01:01:57.341 You just said that, 1168 01:01:57.361 --> 01:01:57.581 you know, 1169 01:01:57.881 --> 01:01:59.322 farming this way brings you a lot of joy. 1170 01:01:59.762 --> 01:01:59.922 Yeah, 1171 01:02:00.382 --> 01:02:00.562 yeah, 1172 01:02:00.702 --> 01:02:01.083 it does. 1173 01:02:01.143 --> 01:02:01.363 I mean, 1174 01:02:01.403 --> 01:02:02.483 not only for wildlife, 1175 01:02:04.584 --> 01:02:05.045 but also, 1176 01:02:05.225 --> 01:02:05.485 you know, 1177 01:02:05.525 --> 01:02:08.587 collaborations with businesses. 1178 01:02:08.607 --> 01:02:09.207 In the past, 1179 01:02:09.307 --> 01:02:10.208 the way we used to farm, 1180 01:02:10.209 --> 01:02:11.488 a lot of conventional farming is, 1181 01:02:12.789 --> 01:02:13.029 you know, 1182 01:02:13.030 --> 01:02:13.769 we're growing feed. 1183 01:02:13.910 --> 01:02:14.630 They're growing feed. 1184 01:02:14.930 --> 01:02:16.551 It goes into animal feed. 1185 01:02:17.592 --> 01:02:18.312 Loaded on a lorry, 1186 01:02:18.313 --> 01:02:19.212 you don't know where it goes. 1187 01:02:19.272 --> 01:02:21.073 It's gone and so on. 1188 01:02:21.133 --> 01:02:25.156 Now we're just working with lots of businesses that... 1189 01:02:26.088 --> 01:02:47.019 appreciate how we're farming and there's a much you know we're growing food not feed and we're working with businesses who appreciate us and that and um and actually we're getting premiums for that so um yeah you know going down the wheat for instance we're getting significant premiums growing for wild farms i think we've spoken about them a bit in the last day or two yeah 1190 01:02:47.220 --> 01:02:55.004 you know a relatively new business um started up a few years ago um and their remit is to 1191 01:02:57.088 --> 01:03:15.616 to produce flour and grain that has had received no pesticides at all and limited amounts of synthetic fertilizer and also for as a grower that's what we have to adhere to and also we have to have some livestock integration on their farms they they want mixed farms on board um 1192 01:03:16.956 --> 01:03:26.700 and um you know so there are various parameters we need to reach to to work with them but the premiums are significant you 1193 01:03:26.782 --> 01:03:27.436 compared to the... 1194 01:03:28.644 --> 01:03:44.411 global whatever the national commodity the commodity prices that we're seeing um almost double um currently um the price at which you sell your yeah so the wheat we're producing now with the the price we agreed with wild farmed um last 1195 01:03:44.471 --> 01:03:57.096 year is nearly double um the price that a conventional grower would get for his wheat from this harvest so i mean massive and i look i don't know how long that's going to remain the case but it's fantastic at the moment and they're selling that 1196 01:03:57.656 --> 01:04:14.321 the flour and bread to artisan bakers and to a lot of some pizza firms franco manca ask pizza quite big chains of pizza restaurants they're selling their bread and flour in several supermarkets as well i mean it's it's 1197 01:04:14.381 --> 01:04:24.644 building momentum and people are much more interested in they don't want that they don't want they're interested in where their food comes from and they don't want stuff covered in chemicals really so um you 1198 01:04:25.004 --> 01:04:40.068 yeah it's great for them um and it's good for us yes you you've uh very conveniently opened up the next chapter of the conversation about you know who you sell your product produced to and how that side of things work and so here you you started by talking about wild farm yeah uh they're 1199 01:04:40.408 --> 01:04:52.051 fairly famous in the regenerative agriculture space especially here in the uk but um but for the people who have not heard about them yet when you just explained sort of very quickly and summarized what they do, 1200 01:04:52.151 --> 01:04:54.112 but could we just... 1201 01:04:55.100 --> 01:05:11.911 how to say zoom in and explain in more detail how this works for you as a farmer and how they operate with you yeah so they were they were set up by three guys one of them andy is um is the farmer really amongst the three of them and um you 1202 01:05:11.912 --> 01:05:24.460 know he he was um he runs an organic farm originally in france and then um he was in the music world before then but um he had organic farm in france and then latterly and currently in in the uk in the west 1203 01:05:24.720 --> 01:05:43.915 and um and the other two guys um they're all really driven about um you know producing healthy food and and how pretty screwed up our food system is and wanting to try and change that um so they set up the business they were looking for growers who were also um on board with how 1204 01:05:43.916 --> 01:05:50.280 they wanted to um uh accept food um and and grow food so um 1205 01:05:50.856 --> 01:05:51.476 Yeah, 1206 01:05:51.756 --> 01:05:54.397 there's now around 100 maybe more growers who are on board with them. 1207 01:05:55.098 --> 01:05:58.219 And we're all regenerative farmers, 1208 01:05:59.299 --> 01:06:00.400 farming in similar ways, 1209 01:06:00.560 --> 01:06:03.461 but all very empowered with what we're doing. 1210 01:06:03.462 --> 01:06:04.101 And it's a really, 1211 01:06:04.221 --> 01:06:07.843 it's a wonderful movement to be involved with. 1212 01:06:08.863 --> 01:06:12.185 And going back to how we need to, 1213 01:06:13.345 --> 01:06:14.726 what their sort of stipulations are. 1214 01:06:17.187 --> 01:06:17.807 At the moment, 1215 01:06:18.187 --> 01:06:18.447 in fact, 1216 01:06:18.467 --> 01:06:20.068 we're supplying them now with oats. 1217 01:06:20.780 --> 01:06:42.590 uh and wheat but they will also if the nitrogen levels are correct in the malting barley they will also accept some malting barley so they're looking to go into the um beer beer world um but um yeah we we you're not allowed to use any from the planting of the crop to the harvest of the crop you're not allowed to use any pesticides at 1218 01:06:42.690 --> 01:06:46.492 all in the growing of that crop and you're allowed to use um you know 1219 01:06:47.656 --> 01:07:05.231 uh significantly smaller amounts of synthetic fertilizers to help grow that crop so um i think this year the rate was around 120 kilos of synthetic fertilizer allowable in the crop per hectare and how does that compare to what a conventional half 1220 01:07:05.992 --> 01:07:15.080 so it's half the synthetic fertilizer and i think what they like like you to do is you're allowed to apply around two-thirds of that in 1221 01:07:15.600 --> 01:07:16.480 In split doses, 1222 01:07:16.520 --> 01:07:17.141 in two doses, 1223 01:07:17.142 --> 01:07:18.821 they say two lots of 40 kilos. 1224 01:07:20.142 --> 01:07:20.942 And then beyond that, 1225 01:07:21.142 --> 01:07:22.582 it's sort of means tested. 1226 01:07:22.642 --> 01:07:26.284 So what we're doing a lot of on the farm and have done for a few years is sap analysis. 1227 01:07:26.784 --> 01:07:29.725 So taking tissue samples from the plant, 1228 01:07:30.505 --> 01:07:37.867 sending them off to a lab and getting results back of what that plant is deficient in, 1229 01:07:38.007 --> 01:07:39.688 in terms of elements. 1230 01:07:41.288 --> 01:07:41.408 So, 1231 01:07:41.868 --> 01:07:42.109 and then, 1232 01:07:42.110 --> 01:07:42.389 and then, 1233 01:07:42.549 --> 01:07:47.211 and then what we do is we will get that information back within two or three days and then we'll act accordingly. 1234 01:07:47.431 --> 01:07:47.591 And, 1235 01:07:48.392 --> 01:07:48.632 you know, 1236 01:07:48.712 --> 01:07:48.952 having, 1237 01:07:49.132 --> 01:07:51.573 having gone down from very conventional, 1238 01:07:51.653 --> 01:07:54.695 quite aggressive levels of synthetic fertilizer, 1239 01:07:55.435 --> 01:07:56.556 when we started doing saps, 1240 01:07:57.016 --> 01:07:57.176 um, 1241 01:07:57.776 --> 01:07:58.577 three or four years ago, 1242 01:07:59.297 --> 01:07:59.417 we, 1243 01:07:59.838 --> 01:08:02.999 we've never seen any of our plants deficient in nitrogen. 1244 01:08:05.348 --> 01:08:06.629 So when you get the return back, 1245 01:08:06.649 --> 01:08:07.869 the analysis from your... 1246 01:08:07.949 --> 01:08:08.089 Yeah, 1247 01:08:08.449 --> 01:08:09.470 we get the analysis back. 1248 01:08:10.790 --> 01:08:18.994 The issues we get on our soils are the plant is deficient in magnesium, 1249 01:08:19.214 --> 01:08:20.235 manganese sometimes, 1250 01:08:20.295 --> 01:08:20.995 maybe silicon, 1251 01:08:21.955 --> 01:08:22.916 copper occasionally, 1252 01:08:23.216 --> 01:08:23.856 iron sometimes, 1253 01:08:24.837 --> 01:08:26.497 but never nitrogen, 1254 01:08:26.818 --> 01:08:29.559 which suggests to me that we don't need to apply. 1255 01:08:29.939 --> 01:08:32.060 The plant has adequate amounts of nitrogen in it. 1256 01:08:32.680 --> 01:08:35.584 So we have a tendency to think that if it's not growing well enough, 1257 01:08:35.624 --> 01:08:37.026 it's because it doesn't have enough nitrogen. 1258 01:08:37.066 --> 01:08:37.486 But actually, 1259 01:08:37.546 --> 01:08:40.069 it's all of these other elements a lot of the time that are missing. 1260 01:08:40.330 --> 01:08:40.950 Yeah, 1261 01:08:41.071 --> 01:08:41.691 exactly right. 1262 01:08:43.046 --> 01:08:44.006 So the last sort of 20, 1263 01:08:44.106 --> 01:08:44.386 30, 1264 01:08:44.546 --> 01:08:47.287 40 kilos is kind of based on, 1265 01:08:47.767 --> 01:08:48.468 with wild farmed, 1266 01:08:48.888 --> 01:08:51.929 is based on what you receive back from your sap analysis. 1267 01:08:52.029 --> 01:08:52.329 And then, 1268 01:08:53.189 --> 01:08:54.189 you know, 1269 01:08:54.409 --> 01:08:54.889 on our farm, 1270 01:08:54.890 --> 01:08:58.190 we tailor a sort of mix together to then use on the crop, 1271 01:08:58.591 --> 01:09:04.532 which might be a 10 kilo amount of foliar end mixed with some sulfur. 1272 01:09:05.573 --> 01:09:08.053 So we mix up a tank load of, 1273 01:09:08.613 --> 01:09:08.974 so a very, 1274 01:09:09.134 --> 01:09:10.374 very small amount of nitrogen. 1275 01:09:10.938 --> 01:09:29.526 but sulfur also isn't i forgot to mention sulfur but that's sometimes a limiting factor as well on these soils so a bit of a nitrogen sulfur mix that applies about 10 kilos of nitrogen and then we also add some fish hydrolysate which is an organic um sort of fertilizer it contains all sorts of things but it's a really good um organic 1276 01:09:29.586 --> 01:09:38.630 product maybe some manganese some always some magnesium um and maybe some seaweed some liquid seaweed um 1277 01:09:38.790 --> 01:10:02.465 which again is just a good organic fertilizer and soil improver so we just make a mix of that and apply it in a foliar form through the sprayer straight onto the crop and we'll do that a couple of times to maybe three times at the end of the the back end of the season to grow the crop and that's allowable so we'll go up we won't we don't actually often hit their their limits so just a quick question is so you said that last third of fertilizer 1278 01:10:02.505 --> 01:10:03.266 that's allowed 1279 01:10:03.466 --> 01:10:19.962 by wild farm but depending you said it's depending on your yeah i think it's based on yeah do you have to actually communicate your sap analysis results with them as well to prove that yeah so actually they they pay for the sap analysis um and currently the saps have to go off to uh the 1280 01:10:20.002 --> 01:10:23.306 netherlands there's no no lab in the uk 1281 01:10:23.786 --> 01:10:26.167 It seems to be the only lab in the world. 1282 01:10:26.168 --> 01:10:26.707 Even the American, 1283 01:10:26.867 --> 01:10:27.847 they send their stuff out. 1284 01:10:27.848 --> 01:10:29.007 It seems insane. 1285 01:10:29.107 --> 01:10:31.328 It's really strange that you wouldn't see more labs popping up. 1286 01:10:31.368 --> 01:10:31.508 Yeah, 1287 01:10:31.648 --> 01:10:31.908 well, 1288 01:10:31.909 --> 01:10:36.549 I think I'm getting the impression that we need to watch this space because I suspect there'll be one here before too long. 1289 01:10:36.569 --> 01:10:37.510 But yeah, 1290 01:10:37.570 --> 01:10:38.850 currently everything's sent over there. 1291 01:10:40.411 --> 01:10:40.791 And, 1292 01:10:41.211 --> 01:10:41.451 you know, 1293 01:10:42.631 --> 01:10:44.512 there's a cost to it. 1294 01:10:44.552 --> 01:10:45.172 And anyway, 1295 01:10:45.212 --> 01:10:45.492 kindly, 1296 01:10:46.372 --> 01:10:47.292 they cover that cost. 1297 01:10:48.413 --> 01:10:51.574 And the information is sent to them and to us. 1298 01:10:52.374 --> 01:10:52.854 And actually... 1299 01:10:53.414 --> 01:10:53.654 I mean, 1300 01:10:53.674 --> 01:10:54.355 we use Ben, 1301 01:10:54.415 --> 01:10:57.618 and so I'll chat through with our Regen consultant, 1302 01:10:57.658 --> 01:10:57.859 Ben, 1303 01:10:57.959 --> 01:11:05.046 but otherwise for growers that don't have a Ben or someone that they can use to go through the results, 1304 01:11:05.967 --> 01:11:14.716 there's Ed at Wildfound or probably one or two other people that can help analyse those results and probably tailor a mix of trace elements to apply accordingly. 1305 01:11:15.537 --> 01:11:15.677 Okay. 1306 01:11:15.797 --> 01:11:16.478 So they're very... 1307 01:11:17.810 --> 01:11:17.970 Yeah, 1308 01:11:18.110 --> 01:11:19.871 the other thing I like is that they kind of, 1309 01:11:20.132 --> 01:11:20.392 you know, 1310 01:11:20.592 --> 01:11:21.312 we work together. 1311 01:11:21.733 --> 01:11:23.194 They're very hands-on. 1312 01:11:23.214 --> 01:11:28.857 There's lots of farm growers meetings and lots of interaction with everyone and 1313 01:11:29.258 --> 01:11:30.278 WhatsApp groups and, 1314 01:11:30.438 --> 01:11:30.698 you know, 1315 01:11:30.999 --> 01:11:36.382 even more localised regional meetings amongst the wild farmers of East Anglia. 1316 01:11:36.482 --> 01:11:38.363 So you get to meet the other farmers from Europe. 1317 01:11:38.684 --> 01:11:42.246 And the lovely thing is everyone's doing something slightly different and it's just a great... 1318 01:11:42.654 --> 01:11:59.226 seat of learning it's a bit like groundswell but in a on a very small level yeah so you said no no pesticides yes and no limited amount of uh fertilizer yeah yeah they like to see they like to almost without exception i think they 1319 01:11:59.266 --> 01:12:09.894 have to they want livestock integration on the farm um so i don't think it necessarily has to be in the growing of that crop that you're growing for them but they want you to be uh they 1320 01:12:10.350 --> 01:12:29.861 you know they're backing regenerative farms so so mixed farming is cool and that's what they want to see they want to see cover crops everywhere um and you know when you grow with them you're kind of in it hopefully for a relatively long term and i'm you know we're moving around we're moving obviously we're not cropping the 1321 01:12:29.941 --> 01:12:37.846 same field with a winter wheat growing for wild farm every year so we're moving that those crops around all the time so it's a whole farm sort of approach um 1322 01:12:38.410 --> 01:12:39.091 with livestock, 1323 01:12:39.332 --> 01:12:40.033 with cover crops, 1324 01:12:40.854 --> 01:12:41.115 and, 1325 01:12:41.976 --> 01:12:42.237 you know, 1326 01:12:42.757 --> 01:12:44.039 with how we're farming, 1327 01:12:45.622 --> 01:12:47.285 we're not using pesticides. 1328 01:12:48.406 --> 01:13:06.740 on the growing of crops anyway so it sort of it just it just works for us um and and we're not um i i think they would they would struggle they wouldn't want to work with a grower that says you know right we'll grow that field for of wheat for wild farm but on our other fields of wheat we're going to be very conventional and we're going to spray and all the rest of it so committed 1329 01:13:06.900 --> 01:13:14.266 it's committed yes it's a good commit it's a commitment but it's um uh they they pay well they pay well 1330 01:13:15.646 --> 01:13:24.450 and their clients are prepared to pay a bit more with the knowledge that that has come from a good source, 1331 01:13:25.050 --> 01:13:25.851 a clean source. 1332 01:13:25.991 --> 01:13:26.231 Okay. 1333 01:13:26.591 --> 01:13:30.873 And so you said that then you get to sell that wheat, 1334 01:13:30.893 --> 01:13:31.373 for example, 1335 01:13:31.533 --> 01:13:32.133 at a premium? 1336 01:13:32.433 --> 01:13:32.573 Yeah. 1337 01:13:32.833 --> 01:13:33.554 What does it look like? 1338 01:13:34.574 --> 01:13:35.014 The premium? 1339 01:13:35.174 --> 01:13:35.374 Yes. 1340 01:13:36.555 --> 01:13:36.775 Well, 1341 01:13:38.096 --> 01:13:44.058 so the price that we were offered for the 2025 harvest that's just happened, 1342 01:13:44.868 --> 01:13:45.519 was offered to us. 1343 01:13:46.616 --> 01:14:04.581 in the summer of 2024 and that price was 285 pounds a ton and i think the wheat price at the time on on the sort of um global market here was about um maybe 220 something like that so it's a nice markup 1344 01:14:05.041 --> 01:14:15.504 um and where are we now we've harvested our crop you know the commodity prices have just generally slipped over the last few months the fact is you know we've had a drought 1345 01:14:15.788 --> 01:14:16.188 in Europe, 1346 01:14:16.228 --> 01:14:16.568 haven't we? 1347 01:14:17.689 --> 01:14:19.989 But for us in the UK, 1348 01:14:20.629 --> 01:14:22.150 it's been mega too. 1349 01:14:22.390 --> 01:14:24.650 And yields have been down. 1350 01:14:25.291 --> 01:14:25.651 But actually, 1351 01:14:25.671 --> 01:14:26.371 commodity prices, 1352 01:14:26.751 --> 01:14:27.471 it's a global thing. 1353 01:14:27.491 --> 01:14:29.272 It's not what happens necessarily in Europe. 1354 01:14:29.532 --> 01:14:30.552 And they've just slipped off. 1355 01:14:30.792 --> 01:14:33.033 There's a massive global surplus of grain anyway. 1356 01:14:34.533 --> 01:14:36.554 And prices have pretty much fallen off a cliff. 1357 01:14:36.574 --> 01:14:39.875 I was offered £159 a ton a few days ago for wheat. 1358 01:14:41.215 --> 01:14:41.815 But thankfully, 1359 01:14:41.935 --> 01:14:44.656 we've still got that £285 for the wheat that we've got in our shed. 1360 01:14:45.236 --> 01:15:04.461 is being sold for 285 pounds almost double almost double yeah and they can afford to pay more because they they're creating an extra revenue from selling regenerative products because people are willing to pay more for those yes products yes yeah exactly right yeah yeah so it's um yeah 1361 01:15:04.522 --> 01:15:13.084 it's a good it's a good arrangement at the moment and the other thing which i'll briefly touch on is that wildfarm have been pretty instrumental in trying to so so because 1362 01:15:14.212 --> 01:15:18.533 When subsidies were being phased out over these last few years, 1363 01:15:19.013 --> 01:15:22.154 the government introduced something called the Sustainable Farming Incentive here in the UK. 1364 01:15:22.234 --> 01:15:29.876 And it was a way for farmers to draw in an income, 1365 01:15:29.877 --> 01:15:32.197 a payment for farming in a better way. 1366 01:15:32.337 --> 01:15:39.199 So there were lots of options for which if you adhere to them, 1367 01:15:39.219 --> 01:15:41.679 you could obtain a bit of a payment. 1368 01:15:42.120 --> 01:15:43.600 So not using insecticides. 1369 01:15:44.896 --> 01:15:46.017 not moving soils, 1370 01:15:46.037 --> 01:15:46.517 no till, 1371 01:15:47.518 --> 01:15:48.378 companion cropping, 1372 01:15:49.599 --> 01:15:51.480 low input cereals. 1373 01:15:51.500 --> 01:15:53.581 There were lots of other different options you could, 1374 01:15:54.381 --> 01:16:01.726 and there were payments available for these if you were to adhere to them while subsidies were being phased out. 1375 01:16:02.706 --> 01:16:09.410 And Wildfarm were great because low input cereals in particular is one that very much suits the way we farm with them. 1376 01:16:11.071 --> 01:16:12.652 And they've been working a lot with DEFRA. 1377 01:16:13.360 --> 01:16:31.435 governing body about um you know how wild farmers are farming and and what uh options we can access um and actually they've been a bit of our go-between because it's really hard to deal with defra like it probably is all over the world dealing with these government bodies and getting answers they've 1378 01:16:31.436 --> 01:16:37.320 got they've got a good in with some good people some good ministers so that's been really really helpful um i won't go on 1379 01:16:37.640 --> 01:16:53.509 too much with the SFI as I call it the sustainable as we call it the sustainable farming incentive but currently that whole system is on a hold which is a unbelievable shame because it's been a it was a you know we spoke about getting good advisors 1380 01:16:53.589 --> 01:16:56.730 independent advisors to help change your farming system but that 1381 01:16:57.531 --> 01:17:06.796 SFI was a great leg up for people that wanted to change but were scared to to to do it so they could actually draw a payment you 1382 01:17:07.624 --> 01:17:29.926 for farming in a better way um to mitigate perceived risk of of change um and you know i i don't know what's what the future looks like but it's been on hold for about a year now they're not accepting any new entrants to it it's a three-year term we've still got a couple of years left on our sfi scheme so we're still receiving 1383 01:17:29.966 --> 01:17:30.787 payments for that but 1384 01:17:32.068 --> 01:17:51.258 going forward that it's pretty uncertain but um anyway i'm very thankful yeah i know but it's yeah it is crazy it is completely irrational we i mean we've spoken a lot in the last few days about the hidden cost of food you know yeah the massive hidden cost of food we know we have numbers lots of studies today showing that you know for every pound 1385 01:17:51.338 --> 01:17:53.980 that a person pays at the supermarket there's between 1386 01:17:54.521 --> 01:18:07.659 one and three pounds of hidden cost in in health care in environmental damage in plenty of things yeah and that's you know the well we came to the conclusion that actually spending a bit of that that money that 1387 01:18:08.184 --> 01:18:25.091 public budget uh into incentivizing farmers to to farm with nature yeah uh is actually an amazing investment because it costs very little compared to how much it's you gain yeah as a society as a government with your own your budget right so it just feels crazy that you would you would go 1388 01:18:25.092 --> 01:18:36.136 in the right direction do something that's that's clearly helping and working and then just yeah i totally agree i mean i you know food's food's always been really cheap in the uk Okay. 1389 01:18:37.936 --> 01:18:38.096 And, 1390 01:18:38.316 --> 01:18:38.556 you know, 1391 01:18:38.576 --> 01:18:42.638 really farmers have got their income from a subsidy. 1392 01:18:42.958 --> 01:18:43.999 I don't know how it is in Europe, 1393 01:18:43.1000 --> 01:18:46.260 but that's been often a farmer's income. 1394 01:18:46.340 --> 01:18:47.221 So now that's gone, 1395 01:18:48.161 --> 01:18:50.623 either food has got to become way more expensive, 1396 01:18:51.783 --> 01:18:53.664 but I'm not sure the supermarkets are going to kind of allow that. 1397 01:18:53.704 --> 01:18:55.105 I don't know how that's going to work. 1398 01:18:56.206 --> 01:19:01.009 Or farmers have got to derive an income somewhere, 1399 01:19:01.029 --> 01:19:05.031 so it's got to be via a sustainable farming incentive type scheme. 1400 01:19:06.523 --> 01:19:06.643 So 1401 01:19:08.004 --> 01:19:09.825 I can't see food prices going up massively, 1402 01:19:10.525 --> 01:19:11.106 unfortunately, 1403 01:19:11.766 --> 01:19:12.486 for a long time. 1404 01:19:12.626 --> 01:19:13.647 It's going to be very gradual. 1405 01:19:14.647 --> 01:19:15.348 And by that time, 1406 01:19:15.349 --> 01:19:17.529 if there's no SFI or equivalent, 1407 01:19:17.609 --> 01:19:18.930 most farmers are going to be out of business. 1408 01:19:21.851 --> 01:19:34.178 That's why it would make so much sense for governments to open their eyes to the fact that they are currently spending a lot of money trying to fix the mess that we're creating with these extractive 1409 01:19:34.218 --> 01:19:35.659 intensive conventional systems. 1410 01:19:35.799 --> 01:19:35.919 Yeah. 1411 01:19:36.159 --> 01:19:38.180 And that's just taken away some of that, 1412 01:19:38.420 --> 01:19:38.660 you know, 1413 01:19:38.940 --> 01:19:47.044 that budget and just re-injecting it where it really matters and where it makes a huge difference would be such an obviously good thing to do. 1414 01:19:47.204 --> 01:19:47.524 It would. 1415 01:19:47.684 --> 01:19:48.765 But as we said yesterday, 1416 01:19:48.785 --> 01:19:49.025 you know, 1417 01:19:49.045 --> 01:19:49.385 governments, 1418 01:19:49.386 --> 01:19:52.066 they're changing all the time and, 1419 01:19:52.867 --> 01:19:53.007 well, 1420 01:19:53.367 --> 01:19:53.607 you know, 1421 01:19:54.087 --> 01:20:01.611 every few years and no one seems to be in charge for long enough to kind of make really good decisions. 1422 01:20:02.471 --> 01:20:03.432 Having a long-term vision. 1423 01:20:03.572 --> 01:20:03.692 Yeah, 1424 01:20:03.712 --> 01:20:04.572 having a long-term vision. 1425 01:20:04.652 --> 01:20:06.613 So we flip between different ministers. 1426 01:20:07.113 --> 01:20:09.434 Half of them don't seem to know a huge amount about agriculture. 1427 01:20:09.454 --> 01:20:11.475 They've come from foreign policy, 1428 01:20:11.515 --> 01:20:12.116 whatever it might be. 1429 01:20:12.216 --> 01:20:13.876 But they're politicians, 1430 01:20:13.877 --> 01:20:16.998 but they're not necessarily experts in our space. 1431 01:20:17.238 --> 01:20:18.658 And yeah, 1432 01:20:18.819 --> 01:20:20.199 so it's a bit like a headless chicken, 1433 01:20:20.239 --> 01:20:20.519 I think, 1434 01:20:20.639 --> 01:20:21.280 unfortunately. 1435 01:20:21.300 --> 01:20:22.540 Yeah, 1436 01:20:23.280 --> 01:20:23.561 indeed. 1437 01:20:24.221 --> 01:20:24.941 So yeah, 1438 01:20:25.201 --> 01:20:26.342 for a big part of what you grow, 1439 01:20:26.382 --> 01:20:28.743 then you have this collaboration with Wild Farm. 1440 01:20:29.063 --> 01:20:29.644 Yeah, 1441 01:20:29.704 --> 01:20:31.545 so we have the collaboration with Wild Farms. 1442 01:20:31.585 --> 01:20:35.928 We've got a collaboration with a business called Hodmer Dodds, 1443 01:20:36.088 --> 01:20:38.970 who are a Suffolk-based pulse business, 1444 01:20:40.031 --> 01:20:40.331 beans, 1445 01:20:40.411 --> 01:20:40.731 peas, 1446 01:20:41.572 --> 01:20:42.012 and so on. 1447 01:20:42.112 --> 01:20:43.573 And we've been working with them for a few years. 1448 01:20:43.674 --> 01:20:47.977 I used to go to primary school from the age of five with the founder, 1449 01:20:48.017 --> 01:20:48.517 Joe Sire. 1450 01:20:48.597 --> 01:20:49.238 He's a lovely guy. 1451 01:20:50.238 --> 01:20:53.881 And he's got great intentions, 1452 01:20:53.882 --> 01:20:55.682 and he's a really good man in this space. 1453 01:20:55.683 --> 01:20:56.663 So I started... 1454 01:20:57.383 --> 01:21:14.749 growing with him growing for him um about four years ago i think beans maybe initially and then we went into carl nps and via josiah we started working also with the bold bean company and also holland and barrett who he supplies with our carl nps but 1455 01:21:14.789 --> 01:21:21.911 the the bold bean uh you know they're they're um they're another really positive um you 1456 01:21:22.527 --> 01:21:24.588 fast-growing business that was set up by Amelia, 1457 01:21:24.768 --> 01:21:25.989 who I get on well with, 1458 01:21:26.209 --> 01:21:29.231 and was supplying them with carlins that are sold, 1459 01:21:29.871 --> 01:21:30.131 I think, 1460 01:21:30.331 --> 01:21:30.972 via Ocado, 1461 01:21:31.092 --> 01:21:33.073 which is sort of a delivery-type business. 1462 01:21:33.074 --> 01:21:34.013 They were in Waitrose. 1463 01:21:34.014 --> 01:21:36.015 I'm not sure whether they're still in that space, 1464 01:21:36.016 --> 01:21:38.696 but the carlin peas are very high. 1465 01:21:38.697 --> 01:21:43.359 I think they're the highest protein pulse in the market. 1466 01:21:44.447 --> 01:22:04.215 delicious to eat so um i tried them i tried them yesterday evening and i you know in a salad i was making here and they're absolutely delicious i'm i'm a big fan of uh of beans and uh and in general and and eat them a lot and actually this is some of the best ones i've ever tried thank you well i think um i mean the carlins were growing 1467 01:22:04.295 --> 01:22:05.996 uh we're eating a lot in the uk i think in the 1468 01:22:06.496 --> 01:22:13.299 1800s and then they kind of went out of fashion out of fashion as people got wealthier and Dean's beans and peas to be a bit... 1469 01:22:14.635 --> 01:22:15.255 I don't know, 1470 01:22:15.296 --> 01:22:16.416 sort of inferior product. 1471 01:22:17.057 --> 01:22:18.718 So they've sort of been phased out. 1472 01:22:19.739 --> 01:22:21.720 But they're still eating a bit in parts of the UK. 1473 01:22:23.141 --> 01:22:29.425 But then arrives Josiah a lot of years ago with a bit of a mission to kind of get this, 1474 01:22:29.566 --> 01:22:29.806 you know, 1475 01:22:29.866 --> 01:22:31.627 build this market because it's such a wonderful, 1476 01:22:31.667 --> 01:22:33.248 healthy source of protein. 1477 01:22:33.568 --> 01:22:34.309 And yeah, 1478 01:22:34.389 --> 01:22:36.190 so it's been really fun working with those guys. 1479 01:22:37.971 --> 01:22:39.112 And I just love that. 1480 01:22:40.173 --> 01:22:42.675 It's just lovely working with other people that want to. 1481 01:22:43.839 --> 01:23:01.812 approve of what appreciate how we do things and um you know want to do good things in the food and farming space really so um we work with so we work with those guys and on a much kind of lower level and very local level we also work with a wonderful local bake bakery called Worcester's and 1482 01:23:01.852 --> 01:23:11.759 um we started I think they came on one of our farm walks and then I spoke to the sort of patriarch of that business and he said look we'd love to take some of your wheat pesticide free wheat for milling 1483 01:23:12.971 --> 01:23:21.447 and use it in one of our loaves so they're now producing a loaf called the neteshaw wild and that's sure is our village they call it they call it the natural water and it's a pesticide free um 1484 01:23:22.503 --> 01:23:24.764 They mill the wheat and produce their own flour, 1485 01:23:25.105 --> 01:23:26.745 and then it's grown with that flour. 1486 01:23:28.126 --> 01:23:28.807 And there's a story, 1487 01:23:28.808 --> 01:23:32.649 you go into their shop in Bury St Edmunds and more locally, 1488 01:23:33.209 --> 01:23:35.530 and they've got sort of signs up with us. 1489 01:23:36.211 --> 01:23:37.131 It's just a nice story. 1490 01:23:37.631 --> 01:23:38.572 And then they came round. 1491 01:23:39.512 --> 01:23:40.353 When that all started, 1492 01:23:40.433 --> 01:23:41.533 I had all their employees, 1493 01:23:41.614 --> 01:23:43.415 maybe 20 or 30 of them came round, 1494 01:23:43.416 --> 01:23:44.235 and we did a farm walk. 1495 01:23:45.376 --> 01:23:51.119 We'd only recently taken ownership of the eggmobile and the hens out on the field, 1496 01:23:51.120 --> 01:23:51.359 and they 1497 01:23:51.679 --> 01:24:11.313 we were looking at them and talking about them and the benefits for soil health and whatnot of that and and and we got talking about the eggs and what i was going to do with the eggs and they said well look we need a ton of eggs each week um so and we do have a supplier already but we'd love to take some of yours as well so we work with them we supply them with some eggs for their baking so 1498 01:24:11.353 --> 01:24:20.219 it's just yeah it's lovely i just i just enjoy working with people rather than sticking it all on lorry and waving it goodbye and never seeing it again so 1499 01:24:21.003 --> 01:24:22.784 Better for the profit and better for the goal as well. 1500 01:24:23.024 --> 01:24:23.144 Yeah, 1501 01:24:23.184 --> 01:24:27.427 it must be so much more gratifying that you're working hard, 1502 01:24:27.507 --> 01:24:28.387 growing food, 1503 01:24:28.567 --> 01:24:30.529 but you can see the final products. 1504 01:24:30.549 --> 01:24:32.310 In the case of the peas, 1505 01:24:32.311 --> 01:24:33.190 the calling peas, 1506 01:24:33.230 --> 01:24:38.193 it's a beautiful product that's well marketed and everything, 1507 01:24:38.194 --> 01:24:38.873 and that's delicious, 1508 01:24:38.893 --> 01:24:40.855 but you can actually enjoy yourself in your own kitchen. 1509 01:24:41.115 --> 01:24:41.435 Exactly. 1510 01:24:42.115 --> 01:24:45.217 Or the wild farm products that are also in the shop. 1511 01:24:45.757 --> 01:24:45.898 Yeah, 1512 01:24:45.918 --> 01:24:46.138 yeah. 1513 01:24:46.358 --> 01:24:46.818 In this case, 1514 01:24:46.838 --> 01:24:47.719 the local bread, 1515 01:24:47.759 --> 01:24:48.139 at least. 1516 01:24:48.615 --> 01:24:49.295 What you produce, 1517 01:24:49.296 --> 01:24:50.736 you can see the results of. 1518 01:24:51.056 --> 01:24:53.296 You can see that this is great quality. 1519 01:24:54.117 --> 01:24:54.657 Out of what we do. 1520 01:24:54.697 --> 01:24:54.917 I mean, 1521 01:24:56.397 --> 01:25:00.218 I think in the years from 2003 to 2020, 1522 01:25:01.319 --> 01:25:02.339 I don't think we had, 1523 01:25:03.459 --> 01:25:04.540 we didn't have any farm tours. 1524 01:25:04.541 --> 01:25:06.160 We didn't host any events on the farm. 1525 01:25:06.860 --> 01:25:07.340 Like I just, 1526 01:25:07.520 --> 01:25:09.101 I don't think I was like, 1527 01:25:09.501 --> 01:25:09.741 you know, 1528 01:25:09.742 --> 01:25:10.501 the way we were farming, 1529 01:25:10.541 --> 01:25:11.282 reaching for the can, 1530 01:25:11.382 --> 01:25:14.422 every can of chemical you pick up has got warnings, 1531 01:25:14.683 --> 01:25:15.503 toxic to something, 1532 01:25:15.723 --> 01:25:16.163 this and that. 1533 01:25:16.695 --> 01:25:18.559 I just wasn't proud of anything we were doing on the farm, 1534 01:25:18.579 --> 01:25:19.601 but since we've changed, 1535 01:25:19.602 --> 01:25:19.841 you know, 1536 01:25:19.861 --> 01:25:20.242 we've had, 1537 01:25:21.184 --> 01:25:23.469 we probably host maybe... 1538 01:25:24.376 --> 01:25:41.709 four events a year we have um a few farm walks a year we school tours i write in a couple of parish magazine local parish magazines um it's just i'm absolutely so proud of what we do and i love i love showing people around and the and 1539 01:25:41.789 --> 01:25:49.855 and locally you know we've it's a bit like grant the sort of rising popularity of groundswell the regen ag show that i met you at a couple of years ago 1540 01:25:50.716 --> 01:25:54.757 which has gone from sort of 900 people in 2018 or so when it started to whatever it is now, 1541 01:25:54.837 --> 01:25:56.037 12,000, 1542 01:25:56.078 --> 01:25:57.718 15,000. 1543 01:25:57.719 --> 01:25:59.939 So too with our local farm walk, 1544 01:26:00.299 --> 01:26:09.401 just for locals here that may or may not have any real knowledge of the food and farming business or industry, 1545 01:26:09.441 --> 01:26:11.262 but they just like what we're doing. 1546 01:26:11.282 --> 01:26:12.742 And when we started a few years ago, 1547 01:26:12.882 --> 01:26:13.062 maybe 1548 01:26:13.622 --> 01:26:14.483 10 people turned up. 1549 01:26:14.523 --> 01:26:16.143 Last year we had 90 or 100. 1550 01:26:16.144 --> 01:26:16.383 You know, 1551 01:26:16.423 --> 01:26:16.703 it's just, 1552 01:26:18.184 --> 01:26:18.984 it's fantastic. 1553 01:26:19.632 --> 01:26:21.573 And as I said to you with that rocket hive, 1554 01:26:21.574 --> 01:26:22.654 that beehive we've got up there, 1555 01:26:22.655 --> 01:26:30.019 we had a lady come and this lovely local girl came around and just loves what we're doing and wanted to buy something for the farm. 1556 01:26:30.099 --> 01:26:31.480 She wanted to buy a gift for the farm. 1557 01:26:31.500 --> 01:26:33.161 And so she bought us this wild beehive, 1558 01:26:33.201 --> 01:26:34.822 which is just so kind. 1559 01:26:34.862 --> 01:26:36.223 And so it's really cool. 1560 01:26:36.263 --> 01:26:37.244 You showed me this this morning. 1561 01:26:37.245 --> 01:26:40.486 It's sort of like structure on some big wooden legs. 1562 01:26:40.706 --> 01:26:40.826 Yeah. 1563 01:26:40.907 --> 01:26:44.389 And it's quite a big tree trunk kind of thing. 1564 01:26:44.509 --> 01:26:46.590 And that was quite hollowed inside. 1565 01:26:46.591 --> 01:26:47.031 And it's just, 1566 01:26:47.071 --> 01:26:47.871 it's been kind of. 1567 01:26:48.191 --> 01:26:48.512 Yeah. 1568 01:26:49.376 --> 01:27:04.425 built into this uh this uh what is it yeah yeah it's a beehive it's a wild for wild bees ideally um but they're you know like everywhere and globally you know space for lots of species is reducing 1569 01:27:04.445 --> 01:27:17.472 all the time um so it's just creating a nice um good environment for those for the wild bees that um don't have anywhere to go these days with um you know with um developments and god knows what so yeah you seem very 1570 01:27:17.812 --> 01:27:38.269 passionate and very excited about what you're doing and generally speaking quite quite happy i mean this feeling i'm getting from you yeah um total second wind in farming total second wind yeah just love it yeah and how has that you know evolved since the days where you were sort of farming more conventionally do you feel like this this whole transition has really changed your personal mental 1571 01:27:38.309 --> 01:27:46.255 health and well-being in general yes i would i think i'm a i think i'm a happier person 1572 01:27:46.636 --> 01:27:46.856 I I 1573 01:27:49.354 --> 01:27:51.475 I feel like also we have a better work-life balance. 1574 01:27:51.495 --> 01:27:52.736 Like initially when you change, 1575 01:27:53.797 --> 01:27:54.798 I certainly in the old system, 1576 01:27:54.799 --> 01:27:55.519 we were a lot busier, 1577 01:27:56.179 --> 01:27:58.561 way busier with more track to time, 1578 01:28:00.683 --> 01:28:00.883 rush, 1579 01:28:00.983 --> 01:28:01.163 rush, 1580 01:28:01.243 --> 01:28:02.444 rush kind of thing. 1581 01:28:04.526 --> 01:28:04.706 Busy, 1582 01:28:04.786 --> 01:28:06.168 I think I was a bit of a busy fool. 1583 01:28:06.808 --> 01:28:07.068 You know, 1584 01:28:07.168 --> 01:28:08.309 we're rushing around without, 1585 01:28:08.429 --> 01:28:11.092 you need to sometimes take a step back and see and assess. 1586 01:28:12.012 --> 01:28:14.595 And that's probably what got me into a bit of a pickle when I had my accident, 1587 01:28:14.596 --> 01:28:15.135 if I'm honest, 1588 01:28:15.816 --> 01:28:16.156 rushing. 1589 01:28:16.808 --> 01:28:32.179 um so now i think we're we're much more okay it's been it's it's taken a while um to get everyone totally on board with it with the way we're farming but we we the guys are spending less time on the tractors we're 1590 01:28:32.199 --> 01:28:45.007 doing probably a bit more management time uh but more crop walking more research and so on but that i i enjoy all of that a lot more but also a lot more time spent with family and friends. 1591 01:28:45.387 --> 01:28:45.908 And I think... 1592 01:28:46.512 --> 01:29:04.024 that's great for me personally but also for the two guys that work for us i guess i mean we try and look after them i think we look after them pretty well financially and uh and so on but i you know they could probably go to a way bigger farm and work around 1593 01:29:04.044 --> 01:29:15.052 the clock and earn more money but they won't see their family and i think they like the balance and it's so important you know we talk about mental health it's a big thing these days uh and um 1594 01:29:15.892 --> 01:29:16.933 And particularly with farming, 1595 01:29:17.053 --> 01:29:17.993 a lot of suicides, 1596 01:29:18.013 --> 01:29:20.294 a lot of time spent alone. 1597 01:29:21.034 --> 01:29:21.895 The way we're farming now, 1598 01:29:21.935 --> 01:29:23.575 there's way less time spent alone. 1599 01:29:23.576 --> 01:29:26.036 The two guys work together on most things. 1600 01:29:27.677 --> 01:29:27.917 You know, 1601 01:29:28.477 --> 01:29:29.478 they're not centre. 1602 01:29:29.658 --> 01:29:31.559 One's over there on that field and one's over there. 1603 01:29:31.819 --> 01:29:32.699 Most of the stuff they're doing, 1604 01:29:32.700 --> 01:29:34.580 they're doing together or with me. 1605 01:29:34.840 --> 01:29:35.400 And it's just, 1606 01:29:35.860 --> 01:29:37.261 it's more of a collaboration between us. 1607 01:29:38.802 --> 01:29:40.682 And I feel from my point of view, 1608 01:29:40.782 --> 01:29:41.263 it's not, 1609 01:29:42.783 --> 01:29:43.444 we're all learning. 1610 01:29:43.484 --> 01:29:44.284 We're all still learning. 1611 01:29:44.304 --> 01:29:44.544 him. 1612 01:29:44.784 --> 01:30:01.998 you know it's a gradual thing um i want them on board with me as much as possible and so hence we go to we're all learning to we go to groundswell that will have a couple of days off the farm go there they'll go to whatever talks they want to go to and we're just we're just yeah it's it's and they come with ben and it's just and 1613 01:30:01.999 --> 01:30:09.644 i and i honestly think if they left this farm they would not go back to a conventional business like they're seeing Thanks. 1614 01:30:10.200 --> 01:30:11.221 the fruits of their labors, 1615 01:30:11.301 --> 01:30:13.422 whether it's the amount of worms in the soil, 1616 01:30:13.663 --> 01:30:14.203 wildlife, 1617 01:30:15.704 --> 01:30:17.245 they come to some of the wild farm meetings, 1618 01:30:17.265 --> 01:30:17.485 you know, 1619 01:30:17.486 --> 01:30:23.590 they're just way more bought into it and I just don't think they go back to that sort of conventional system, 1620 01:30:24.170 --> 01:30:25.251 even if the money was better. 1621 01:30:26.272 --> 01:30:26.952 That's fantastic. 1622 01:30:28.533 --> 01:30:36.800 Most of the listeners of this podcast will know by now that the official partner of the Deep Seed podcast is Sol Capital and I know that you're 1623 01:30:37.847 --> 01:30:56.776 enrolled in the sole capital program is that right yes that's quite recently though yeah quite recently um we signed up with them about a year ago and um we're not at the stage yet where we could look to maybe sell some carbon credits um but we might be in probably 1624 01:30:56.777 --> 01:31:03.599 in the middle of next year hopefully so yeah maybe too early to to speak about the benefits to your you know 1625 01:31:04.019 --> 01:31:22.692 to your farm and to your right but but maybe we could talk about the process itself um because a big worry sometimes it's because you have a lot of administration work to do and so what kind of so the process so the the process for us was to um to 1626 01:31:22.732 --> 01:31:33.379 put in data from the current year and previous years historical data uh with what we'd done on the fields in terms of um uh 1627 01:31:33.883 --> 01:31:34.283 tillage, 1628 01:31:35.684 --> 01:31:36.524 pesticides, 1629 01:31:37.585 --> 01:31:38.365 fertilizers, 1630 01:31:39.205 --> 01:31:39.886 harvesting, 1631 01:31:40.546 --> 01:31:41.406 removal of straw, 1632 01:31:41.726 --> 01:31:42.006 whatever, 1633 01:31:43.347 --> 01:31:43.887 cover cropping, 1634 01:31:44.407 --> 01:31:44.928 a real mix. 1635 01:31:45.008 --> 01:31:47.389 So they wanted the history of the fields. 1636 01:31:48.649 --> 01:31:50.490 And that can be quite exhaustive. 1637 01:31:51.510 --> 01:31:51.731 I mean, 1638 01:31:51.732 --> 01:31:55.292 we keep data on farm software anyway. 1639 01:31:56.112 --> 01:31:58.874 So we've got data back for the last 15 plus years. 1640 01:31:58.934 --> 01:32:00.574 So we've got that to hand. 1641 01:32:00.654 --> 01:32:00.834 but 1642 01:32:02.919 --> 01:32:04.740 The great thing with Soil Capital was that 1643 01:32:06.500 --> 01:32:09.961 I was liaising with one of the girls there and we went through it together. 1644 01:32:09.981 --> 01:32:10.341 And actually, 1645 01:32:10.421 --> 01:32:14.442 what could have been for quite a non-techie man like me, 1646 01:32:16.503 --> 01:32:21.104 a good couple of days of messing about and lots of phone calls to the office. 1647 01:32:21.804 --> 01:32:28.446 It turned out to be half to two-thirds of a day with her going through it and putting the data in. 1648 01:32:29.526 --> 01:32:30.167 So we did that. 1649 01:32:30.747 --> 01:32:31.287 Thanks. 1650 01:32:31.899 --> 01:32:35.240 I'm now in a position to input my 2025 harvest data, 1651 01:32:36.240 --> 01:32:38.841 which I'll do with her via a Zoom call probably quite soon. 1652 01:32:40.221 --> 01:32:41.162 And then I believe, 1653 01:32:41.182 --> 01:32:41.982 as I understand it, 1654 01:32:42.542 --> 01:32:43.722 perhaps in the middle of next year, 1655 01:32:43.723 --> 01:32:47.484 we might be in a position to sell some carbon credits. 1656 01:32:47.504 --> 01:32:51.985 And I know carbon seems to be quite a debatable topic, 1657 01:32:52.005 --> 01:32:57.066 and I don't really know enough about it to comment too much about it, 1658 01:32:57.067 --> 01:32:58.827 but I just feel that the way we're farming, 1659 01:32:59.847 --> 01:33:13.302 you know we're sequestering carbon and why not look to derive a bit of an income from from the way we're farming a bit like the sfi you know farming's you know on its knees um 1660 01:33:15.479 --> 01:33:29.729 globally well certainly with in europe by the sound of it um and so um yeah any income is better than nothing so um yeah we'll see how this i don't know how much we could potentially derive but i it's certainly something to worth looking at i would advise for any regen grower um 1661 01:33:29.789 --> 01:33:30.049 Amazing. 1662 01:33:30.189 --> 01:33:30.389 Yes. 1663 01:33:30.810 --> 01:33:31.490 For the question of, 1664 01:33:31.950 --> 01:33:32.210 you know, 1665 01:33:32.330 --> 01:33:35.992 the carbon markets and the soil capital's vision on this, 1666 01:33:36.132 --> 01:33:39.013 we just did recently an amazing episode with Andrew, 1667 01:33:39.434 --> 01:33:40.294 the head of impact there. 1668 01:33:40.295 --> 01:33:42.755 So if anyone's interested in learning more about this, 1669 01:33:42.855 --> 01:33:45.016 they definitely go back and listen to this episode. 1670 01:33:45.337 --> 01:33:45.577 Yeah, 1671 01:33:45.578 --> 01:33:45.977 it was great. 1672 01:33:46.817 --> 01:33:47.818 One last question about them, 1673 01:33:47.878 --> 01:33:48.038 though, 1674 01:33:48.078 --> 01:33:51.279 is that what made you decide to join the program? 1675 01:33:52.020 --> 01:33:52.800 What appealed to you? 1676 01:33:54.661 --> 01:33:57.623 So I had looked at carbon with another business. 1677 01:34:00.187 --> 01:34:17.152 uh probably about three years ago and it kind of didn't really yield anything um i spent quite a bit of time putting data in and and then it turned out that there were weren't any buyers for the credits and we did start speaking to a vertical farming business but it just sort of didn't really go anywhere um and 1678 01:34:17.172 --> 01:34:28.195 then i spoke to another another business in the uk um and actually it was it was a different sort of system it was actually coming to this guy was was going to send 1679 01:34:28.435 --> 01:34:46.948 people to the farm to actually do some core samples go around the farm take some soil samples and and assess carbon levels in the soil and then return a year or two years later and take go to the same spot and take more core samples and see and so you had a quantifiable um amount 1680 01:34:46.949 --> 01:34:55.875 of carbon to potentially sell but and those carbon credits as i understand it are worth a lot more so potentially the income we could derive. 1681 01:34:56.355 --> 01:35:15.424 would be greater but um the cost of that um initial survey initial sampling and then again was was was significant like we just didn't have the money to do that um and you know with soil capital i've had uh so so which led me to soil capital basically um i've 1682 01:35:15.444 --> 01:35:21.127 got friends that that sort of sell carbon through them and some of their advisors who i respect um 1683 01:35:22.044 --> 01:35:25.587 I think they're the best or one of the best to work with. 1684 01:35:25.647 --> 01:35:25.767 So, 1685 01:35:28.088 --> 01:35:28.208 yeah, 1686 01:35:28.248 --> 01:35:29.169 I got in touch with them. 1687 01:35:29.189 --> 01:35:31.591 And currently, 1688 01:35:32.671 --> 01:35:32.852 yeah, 1689 01:35:32.872 --> 01:35:36.414 costs have been zero as far as I can recall. 1690 01:35:36.474 --> 01:35:37.795 Maybe an initial small cost, 1691 01:35:37.796 --> 01:35:38.315 I can't remember, 1692 01:35:38.816 --> 01:35:40.017 but very low anyway. 1693 01:35:42.738 --> 01:35:44.700 So going back to the previous guy with the source, 1694 01:35:44.720 --> 01:35:46.261 I probably potentially could have earned more money, 1695 01:35:46.361 --> 01:35:46.861 but actually 1696 01:35:48.022 --> 01:35:50.604 I just didn't have the funds to. 1697 01:35:51.104 --> 01:35:52.325 to begin that journey. 1698 01:35:52.425 --> 01:35:53.986 So I'm very happy with Soul Capital. 1699 01:35:56.787 --> 01:35:58.188 We're currently traveling 1700 01:35:58.788 --> 01:35:59.849 England for a few days, 1701 01:35:59.929 --> 01:36:01.690 recording nine episodes in nine days. 1702 01:36:01.930 --> 01:36:02.190 And 1703 01:36:02.791 --> 01:36:08.073 I thought it'd be kind of fun to ask every guest to come up with a question for the following one. 1704 01:36:09.014 --> 01:36:11.535 And yesterday we were at the University of East 1705 01:36:11.996 --> 01:36:13.136 Anglia, if I'm not mistaken, 1706 01:36:13.156 --> 01:36:13.777 in Norwich, 1707 01:36:14.477 --> 01:36:16.378 talking to Professor Nitya Rao. 1708 01:36:16.958 --> 01:36:18.879 And the question she had for you was, 1709 01:36:19.240 --> 01:36:19.440 um, 1710 01:36:20.836 --> 01:36:20.976 Well, 1711 01:36:21.216 --> 01:36:23.378 people like her in universities doing studies, 1712 01:36:23.578 --> 01:36:25.099 especially on farming and food, 1713 01:36:25.840 --> 01:36:29.383 if you could ask them to focus on something, 1714 01:36:29.423 --> 01:36:33.306 on studying something that you find interesting or that would be relevant for you, 1715 01:36:33.366 --> 01:36:35.267 what would you ask them to study? 1716 01:36:36.728 --> 01:36:37.249 Good question. 1717 01:36:39.971 --> 01:36:40.211 For me, 1718 01:36:40.212 --> 01:36:45.775 I'm quite interested in sort of farmed chemicals that we're seeing in foods. 1719 01:36:46.900 --> 01:36:48.080 And I don't know a lot about it, 1720 01:36:48.081 --> 01:36:49.501 but a couple of years ago, 1721 01:36:49.621 --> 01:36:50.961 there was a study done in the States, 1722 01:36:50.981 --> 01:36:58.063 and they found traces of a product called Clormaquat in breakfast cereals. 1723 01:36:59.083 --> 01:37:01.744 Clormaquat is a plant growth regulator. 1724 01:37:02.084 --> 01:37:06.425 It's a straw stiffener widely used in cereal crops all over the world. 1725 01:37:06.426 --> 01:37:07.006 It's very cheap. 1726 01:37:08.366 --> 01:37:15.048 and they've found that clormaquat is a uh affects um reproductive 1727 01:37:15.608 --> 01:37:32.102 organs in a in a bad way um obviously these are minute levels um in breakfast cereals but it i just thought that's really that's not good news um at all and uh and i would i'd love more research to be done in sort of in that space so what you 1728 01:37:32.103 --> 01:37:40.950 know in conventional growing there's a lot of chemicals used um how much of that actually ends up on on the grain or the bean or the pea or whatever it is. 1729 01:37:43.560 --> 01:37:44.761 And what is that doing to us? 1730 01:37:45.081 --> 01:37:47.322 What is that doing to our health? 1731 01:37:47.722 --> 01:37:53.024 Each specific sort of chemical. 1732 01:37:53.345 --> 01:37:54.225 That's super, 1733 01:37:54.305 --> 01:37:54.905 super important. 1734 01:37:54.945 --> 01:37:57.807 I think it goes back to this question about the true cost of food, 1735 01:37:57.927 --> 01:37:58.107 right? 1736 01:37:58.108 --> 01:37:58.587 So here, 1737 01:37:58.627 --> 01:38:01.508 like the impact on human health, 1738 01:38:01.968 --> 01:38:04.510 basically from conventional agriculture, 1739 01:38:04.511 --> 01:38:09.252 because you could find out more about that and have a more clear information about. 1740 01:38:11.028 --> 01:38:11.829 what it does to us, 1741 01:38:12.269 --> 01:38:12.869 to our health, 1742 01:38:12.929 --> 01:38:16.732 and how much it costs us to also deal with those health issues, 1743 01:38:17.212 --> 01:38:27.638 then maybe we'd have this extra incentive to get off these chemicals and to reward farmers who farm in harmony with nature in a way that's healthy for people. 1744 01:38:27.878 --> 01:38:28.259 Exactly. 1745 01:38:28.759 --> 01:38:30.260 And the amounts are so... 1746 01:38:30.920 --> 01:38:49.270 tiny aren't they that that's probably why the research hasn't really been done i mean people speak about protein bars on a slight slight tangent and how some of the stuff that goes into those bars is isn't is really not you know causes heart disease and blah cancer and all this stuff at certain levels but because it's they're such tiny levels no 1747 01:38:49.410 --> 01:38:58.416 no research is really done and these products just escape scrutiny um so i'd love to know a bit more about you know what we're doing as farmers 1748 01:38:59.668 --> 01:39:01.188 that we're seeing on our food stuff. 1749 01:39:01.228 --> 01:39:02.409 So send that her way, 1750 01:39:02.469 --> 01:39:02.629 please. 1751 01:39:02.669 --> 01:39:03.029 Yeah, 1752 01:39:03.030 --> 01:39:03.269 I will. 1753 01:39:03.369 --> 01:39:03.729 I will. 1754 01:39:03.889 --> 01:39:04.229 And then, 1755 01:39:04.569 --> 01:39:08.250 so the second part of this question, 1756 01:39:08.991 --> 01:39:09.111 well, 1757 01:39:09.112 --> 01:39:09.551 not question, 1758 01:39:09.571 --> 01:39:16.973 but this idea of sharing questions between guests is that we are visiting another farmer tomorrow called David Whitley. 1759 01:39:18.333 --> 01:39:19.113 Not too far from here, 1760 01:39:19.133 --> 01:39:21.794 about an hour northwest in Cambridgeshire. 1761 01:39:22.854 --> 01:39:26.295 Is there any questions that you would like? 1762 01:39:27.336 --> 01:39:27.996 yes um 1763 01:39:28.1000 --> 01:39:34.062 I suppose it's a bit of a general question and no one really knows the answer, 1764 01:39:34.122 --> 01:39:39.325 but you know there's an incredible sort of malaise in agriculture. 1765 01:39:39.365 --> 01:39:47.069 There's been surveys done recently that suggest that something like 60% 1766 01:39:47.449 --> 01:39:51.351 of farmers surveyed don't think they'll be farming in 10 years time. 1767 01:39:52.511 --> 01:39:52.731 80% 1768 01:39:53.311 --> 01:39:54.052 don't think it'll be. 1769 01:39:54.592 --> 01:40:10.039 a generational thing i you know farms will be sold whatever um there seems to be such yeah such and sort of negativity about everything and it's difficult to get out of this sort of torpor of of 1770 01:40:10.379 --> 01:40:19.704 of how difficult things are and that's to be fair it's for a lot of industries at the moment we're not farmers agriculture isn't just the only one but i'd love to know his what his sort of 1771 01:40:21.384 --> 01:40:25.707 vision is for the UK farming in 10 years time? 1772 01:40:25.708 --> 01:40:26.388 What are we going to see? 1773 01:40:26.828 --> 01:40:37.756 Bloody great farms run by large sort of corporations somehow benefiting from economies of scale and still continuing to produce pretty crap food? 1774 01:40:38.036 --> 01:40:44.401 Or are we going to be looking at more regenerative policies, 1775 01:40:44.402 --> 01:40:44.581 you know, 1776 01:40:44.621 --> 01:40:46.523 processes and more regenerative farming? 1777 01:40:46.883 --> 01:40:48.024 Hopefully that's the case. 1778 01:40:48.184 --> 01:40:49.545 and more interaction, 1779 01:40:49.725 --> 01:40:50.566 which I think he does, 1780 01:40:50.646 --> 01:40:57.832 but like I do with good businesses that appreciate how you farm more solar. 1781 01:40:58.052 --> 01:40:58.773 How is it going to look? 1782 01:40:59.334 --> 01:41:00.555 I'd love to know his view on that. 1783 01:41:00.595 --> 01:41:01.255 And obviously for me, 1784 01:41:01.275 --> 01:41:02.356 a big thing is wildlife. 1785 01:41:02.357 --> 01:41:06.920 And we're the most wildlife depleted country in Europe, 1786 01:41:10.703 --> 01:41:12.985 which is just a horrendous shame. 1787 01:41:13.266 --> 01:41:14.747 And at least on our farm, 1788 01:41:14.787 --> 01:41:15.768 I feel like we're... 1789 01:41:16.464 --> 01:41:36.197 we're making positive inroads into improving that situation but it's we're just a we're just a small piece in a large jigsaw and this sort of stuff needs to be done at a landscape scale so you know just his his idea of how things are going to evolve it's just a it's a very broad question but i'd love his his opinion awesome 1790 01:41:36.417 --> 01:41:40.059 great thank you so much we're going to uh close close this conversation here, 1791 01:41:40.060 --> 01:41:41.000 but thank you so much, 1792 01:41:41.060 --> 01:41:41.380 James. 1793 01:41:42.092 --> 01:41:42.552 First of all, 1794 01:41:42.673 --> 01:41:45.955 for hosting us here in your farm for the last couple of days. 1795 01:41:46.035 --> 01:41:49.357 It's been really a pleasure to spend some time with you. 1796 01:41:49.877 --> 01:41:50.638 I learned so much. 1797 01:41:51.118 --> 01:41:56.021 And then thank you also for taking the time today and for sharing your experience, 1798 01:41:56.061 --> 01:41:56.561 your journey, 1799 01:41:56.681 --> 01:41:59.123 your knowledge with the listeners of the Deep Seed podcast. 1800 01:41:59.183 --> 01:41:59.723 Thank you so much. 1801 01:42:00.464 --> 01:42:00.704 Yeah, 1802 01:42:00.705 --> 01:42:04.847 it's been a pleasure to have you here from two years ago at Groundswell. 1803 01:42:04.867 --> 01:42:06.948 It's that lovely moment of meeting and... 1804 01:42:07.348 --> 01:42:25.197 sharing ideas and talking and and both finding a as you do at that show a love of um making things better in the food and farming sector um it's been great to have you both here and um and uh hopefully see you at groundswell in uh july i hope so yes yeah thank you for taking care bye