Hello!
Passionate about sustainability,
energy and climate?
You're in the right place.
Welcome to Energetic.
I'm Marine Cornelis,
and together we will engage with people who dedicate their lives to climate justice and making a just energy transition happen.
They may be activists,
scientists,
policy makers or other enthusiasts just like you.
Let the life stories and insights inspire you to build a better future for people and the planet.
Today is episode 50,
and today's episode is brought to you by our generous sponsor,
the Energy Prospects Project.
And we will be focusing this series of three episodes on a concept that's redefining the urban energy landscape,
energy citizenship.
Energy Communities is indeed a recurring theme in Energetic,
but Energy Prospects has a specific lens.
This EU-funded project examines the multi-layered involvement of citizens in the energy transition,
advocating for a more inclusive and democratic approach.
Join us as we explore how this project empowers individuals and communities to contribute actively to Europe's climate goals.
Our first guest in this series features Edna Wadowicz,
an extremely inspiring expert in sustainable lifestyles.
As the Director of Research at Green Dependent Institute and President of the Green Dependent Association,
Edina excels in bridging the gap between research and practical applications in sustainability.
Her dual role in both academic and applied spheres and her leadership in European projects such as 1.2 degree lifestyle and of course energy prospects demonstrate her commitment to integrating environmental and social aspects of sustainability.
Edina's work is deeply rooted in fostering discussion and feedback cycles between research and community action.
Join us today in episode 50.
I'm so excited.
Edina will share insights on creating impactful environmental change through collaborative efforts.
Edina,
welcome to Energetic.
Thank you.
Thank you for the very nice introduction.
I hope I can play up to it.
Of course you will.
So Edina,
let's start with the roots of your engagement.
You were born in a family that championed active citizenship during your time in Hungary,
when such values were quite often suppressed.
Has this background shaped your approach to sustainability and your commitment to fostering active citizenship in your work today?
Yeah,
thank you for this question.
It's really interesting,
really.
And
I have only recently realized how important my childhood was for me because my parents belonged to this small group-based movement.
And I think that's what this
At a time when this really wasn't encouraged,
it was the communist or socialist period in Hungary where groups were okay if they were part of the regime.
If they were not part of it,
they were very much discouraged because it's giving birth to dissent,
it's making people think too much.
But my parents belonged to this movement.
which was,
by the way,
nonviolent.
And so it wasn't,
its aim wasn't to encourage any violent or any such action,
but to create peaceful involvement,
peaceful discussion,
and to discuss ways in which the regime could be changed.
So I grew up in this context.
So I kind of only just realizing that I have acquired the skills for active citizenship quite early,
and I'm here,
I can now.
question things which can be tiring and difficult at times,
but I also know how to get active,
how to involve people,
how to talk to people.
How you organize groups.
I'm not saying
I'm the best.
It's like a continuous learning process and I always learn about new things.
Lots of inspiring examples of citizenship,
especially in the Energy Prospects project.
I really learned about some things that
I now want to bring to Hungary.
But my childhood,
yeah,
it gave me a good start.
That's amazing.
And thank you for sharing it.
Because,
of course,
it always comes later in life that we realize how much our childhood and our parents have influenced us.
I mean,
there are also years between maybe 15 and 25 where we don't want to have anything to do with our parents.
But they plant some seeds and they plant some seeds of certain values and certain ways of seeing the world.
And they have.
It certainly provided you with a great skill set of really championing alternative perspective and really questioning the status quo and for energy citizenship.
It's indeed really central.
It's now that you are advocating for actively or more actively participating in some.
changes of lifestyle that we need to address climate change.
So could you kind of elaborate on how you,
yourself,
because it's not only about your work,
it's about yourself,
how you embody the role of an energy citizen in your daily life and where you are facing some of the challenges.
Yes,
this is also a kind of continuous learning process.
And as we go on with my husband,
we are always learning more things.
But for us,
choosing where we live...
I realized also a little bit in looking back,
but also it was important at the time as well,
but I didn't quite realize its full importance.
But choosing where you live is really important because for energy citizenship,
of course,
I want to live in a home that is energy efficient.
It's using as little energy as possible and is also a home that enables me.
to save energy,
to act in an energy-saving,
energy-conscious,
carbon-aware way.
So it was very important to select a home in a place that is connected to public transport systems so that I don't always need to use a car.
We have a car because car sharing and carpooling are not so widespread in Hungary just yet.
So we have a car.
But we live in a place where we don't have to use it all the time.
We can cycle,
we can use public transport,
we can walk.
And this is really important.
So when you choose your place of living,
these are important things to pay attention to.
Also whether there is a community that is already in place,
kind of an active or at least a little bit active community or the seeds of activism.
and change others.
So we chose a small town where there is an organic vegetable box scheme so that we can be energy or sustainability citizens this way as well,
joining a local food network.
And there are all kinds of local cultural,
actually,
community initiatives as well.
So this was important for us to at least...
Be able to find people that we live close to and can help us become active citizens in other ways than energy.
So
I mentioned about mobility and also we wanted to find a place where we can maybe find a job as well so that we don't have to travel a lot and potentially drive a lot every day.
This is about reducing your mobility related carbon impact,
but also saving time and spending more time with the family,
the community or,
you know,
in your garden or reading or whatever.
So.
At the beginning,
I wasn't able to do this.
I had to still commute.
But by now,
our own organization,
Green Dependent,
has its office in our own town,
so I can walk or cycle to work.
There are some challenges related to finding colleagues because we are not in Budapest,
the capital where everyone is.
but in a smaller town,
not far from Budapest,
actually.
But there are always advantages and disadvantages.
So this is another part to bring your job closer to you or to move closer to your job and find a job that is in line with your values.
So that was really important for me.
Even before having our own organization,
I tried to find jobs that helped me do what I believe in.
And I was...
I'm really reluctant to do things that are not in line with that.
And again,
I realize this is a challenge and not everyone can always afford to do this.
But that's part of my citizenship efforts.
Maybe I earn less,
but I work for things that
I believe in.
Having a garden was also important for us so that we can at least have some greenery around us.
Also to preserve diversity or create diversity for birds and insects and all kinds of animals,
but try to grow our food as well.
We used to grow quite a lot of our own food.
Now a bit less because we have a snail invasion and actually partly related to biodiversity and climate change.
We have a new type of actually not a snail,
but a slug.
So we are currently in a challenging situation to preserve our vegetables,
to be able to grow them.
But yeah,
we are not giving up.
Just changing our strategy.
So we are trying to be active citizens in all ways.
Also,
we started a local climate club.
This was actually part of a research project and we wanted to run it only for like half a year or something to try out to pilot some methodology.
for a group-based method to save energy and to reduce your carbon footprint.
But the pilot went so well and people wanted to keep going.
So we actually had it for 10 years and
COVID killed it a little bit because the type of community we had,
people weren't really ready to go online and continue online.
And since we weren't allowed to meet,
this kind of...
killed it a little bit.
We are now looking at ways of maybe reviving it.
But it was active for 10 years.
We still,
you know,
recognize the people and greet each other,
have conversations locally.
So,
yes,
all kinds of different ways we are trying to be active energy citizens.
And I have to say,
I couldn't do it without my husband.
it's always easier to do it together.
And yeah,
of course,
the community is important,
but your immediate family.
And I also recognize that this can be a challenge for some people.
We have been running projects that encourage families to do things together,
as well as in small local communities.
And I know that in some households and families,
it is a challenge.
That's so inspiring to hear you share your experiences,
your journey that is really based on these values,
the one that you mentioned with my first questions on your bringing.
And that's really super fascinating.
And also to hear your struggle,
because you are an expert.
You have this kind of scientific background.
You have all the knowledge,
et cetera.
But you are also a human being who's faced with the reality of things,
the reality being that you have...
snails in your garden and you don't have a hedgehog to eat them all.
You have colleagues who may not want to move to a little town.
You are faced with global challenges such as COVID that ends some conversations somehow,
but also redefine other people's and your priority as well.
And that's really...
Actually,
what I really love about this podcast is that everybody is on a sustainability journey and everybody is bringing their own perspective,
their own viewpoint.
It's about getting inspired by other people,
right?
It's about understanding that alone we make only baby steps,
whereas with other people we can go much,
much further.
And that's really super inspiring.
But let's go back to the Energy Prospect project.
So it's a project that has been funded.
...under Horizon 2020,
which is the European research and development program.
And what I understand from the
Hungarian context is that pivotal in examining how energy citizenship can contribute to sustainable and democratic energy system,
but not only about energy.
And I mean,
it's not the first time we have conversation about energy communities here in Energetic.
We have also seen that energy community is only part of a broader conversation.
of making sure that people actually talk to each other,
that they build some form of communities.
I see you not now.
So can you share really your perspective and maybe your tips on how,
from your perspective,
some ways that have been effective in bringing people together in the energy transition,
in the sustainability transition?
Maybe also giving us some context about what is at stake right now in Hungary and why this was maybe a particularly challenging context.
Yes,
in energy prospects,
I was lucky to lead the work related to collecting cases of energy citizenship from all over Europe and studying them.
We actually,
if anyone is interested,
we have a database of about 600 cases really from many European countries,
not just the European Union,
but associated and aspiring countries as well.
So it's quite an interesting database in my view.
And then we also looked at 40 cases.
These are only
European Union cases in more detail to learn about energy citizenship.
And we intentionally...
We took a wide definition of energy citizenship,
so we didn't only focus on energy communities or community energy,
but all kinds of ways citizens are getting involved because we wanted to see how people find context-specific solutions or find solutions to their energy-related issues.
energy governance,
production,
consumption,
so lots of very different cases.
And we also looked at individual cases,
because many people,
they don't want to do it in communities or they cannot do it in communities or not yet ready to do it in communities,
but they are still very passionate about it.
changing,
making the energy system,
or at least their own consumption more sustainable.
So we also looked at these kind of people,
influencers,
as well as kind of quiet energy citizens.
Influencers.
Yeah,
even there are some influencers in this regard as well.
There is a Latvian case in our database about a guy called Edgar.
And he's going out to talk to people about,
he started with talking about how he does it,
how he's cycling.
Actually,
in cities where there are no bike lanes yet,
but yes,
you can cycle.
You have to start.
And he was telling people about his experience,
his struggles,
but also his success stories and encouraging them to change.
And now he's moderating groups,
he's talking to all kinds of groups of students to help them change,
to inspire them to change.
But we also have cases of people who build.
an energy efficient house,
well,
or maybe not even build,
but renovate,
because it's also important to make our existing housing stock more energy efficient.
And she is,
this person is actually an architect,
so she knows how to do it.
But she's also inviting,
organizing visits to her home to show people how this can be done,
how you can renovate,
how you can use.
solar energy,
how you can use a composting toilet,
how you can actually run a guest house independent of the system off-grid.
So these kind of people we always also included in our database,
but also community.
Cases like municipalities encouraging citizens and helping citizens to change,
or people organising and starting carbon or climate clubs like the one
I mentioned that we ran in our town,
or mobility related cases as well which help people bike but also build.
cargo bikes and use them for local transportation instead of cars.
So really a diverse set of cases,
also consultations.
So there are many,
many different ways you can get engaged in the energy transition.
And you can do it on your own with others.
You can just go and participate in a consultation or really go and lead the change.
And I think this is really important that there are many different ways to get involved,
to get activated.
You don't have to be super active to begin with,
but you can start this process slowly.
And this is important.
You asked me about how people can get engaged.
We had a project in
Hungary, actually inspired by a program in Belgium called Energy Neighborhoods.
And at the beginning,
first two years.
We had European Union funding for it,
so it was really good.
And we ran it in 16 countries,
so it can be done in many different countries.
Well,
we weren't leading the project.
It was the Belgians and some German partners leading the project.
But we were lucky to be invited to participate from Hungary.
And it was called
Energy Neighborhoods.
And it is about enabling and empowering people to organize local groups.
These people,
these volunteers,
they don't have to have prior energy-related knowledge.
They can just be people who want to work for positive change or even learn something new and are ready to involve their...
friends or colleagues or religious group or sport group or whatever,
and start this energy neighborhood or energy community and just start saving energy.
We as experts gave them a training and also gave them tips.
regularly throughout the program and people started making change in their homes but regularly meeting in their local small groups.
These small groups are important so that you get extra tips,
you get encouragement because this is not the mainstream living just yet.
Hopefully it will be.
So you often need encouragement.
You need to see that others are also doing it so it's not just you trying to do something.
crazy to save energy to to reduce your indoor temperature yes it was also important that this program targeted behavior change based things that you can do so you don't need to invest you didn't need to have a lot of money you don't need to completely change your the way you live you
just have to think about your everyday things how yeah so so what kind of tips would you like if somebody
would like to start something,
what kind of tips,
really practical tips would you like to share with them?
Yeah,
we encourage them.
We created like a questionnaire or something,
a survey that they could easily do and go through their house.
how hot is it or how warm is it in your home?
Measure it.
Change your or check your thermostat settings.
Is it set?
What kind of temperature does it set to?
Do you change the setting for the night?
Because you don't need so warm a temperature at night.
And then how do you wash?
How often do you wash?
Do you really feel the washing machine?
or you just put in some clothes because you need them you and what kind of temperature do you wash it or with your fridge what what is the temperature setting and and do you clean it do you make sure that you arrange the thing so that the air can flow around so these kind of really easy things that most people would think that oh
yeah it's not not a you know it's not a big innovation or whatever but most people are not doing these things and they don't realize
how much energy you could save.
You can easily save 10%,
but if you really pay attention,
in Hungary we had people saving 25-30% of energy and,
of course,
money as well.
Yeah,
and without totally uprooting or changing your life size.
Of course,
you have to change things and I don't want to say that it's very easy.
because some of the things are kind of automatic and we don't even think about them,
like what kind of washing program we start.
But if you start paying attention to,
and these kind of programs really help you do that,
you learn.
And in energy neighborhoods,
the good thing was that you could first just join as a local member of a group.
But then if you realize that,
oh,
I could actually organize my own group,
You could join again next year with your own group and be activated and become more active energy citizens.
And then the next year you could say,
OK,
I've done it now with my colleagues.
I want to do it now with my,
you know,
hiking friends.
So I will do it with them again because we were lucky to run this program for 10 years after the European Union funding.
And Energy Utility actually funded us.
to go on.
And this is important to let people join at their own level to be able to do what is relevant to them.
And this program was particularly good about that because you did your own survey and you chose what was relevant for you to change.
So in some households,
it will be heating.
In other households,
it will be washing.
Still other households,
it is maybe mobility.
And you have to be able to...
participate in a program that allows you to do this.
And then it also allowed learning together,
which was really good for people,
and also to progress as an energy citizen from like a basic level participant to someone who is leading groups.
And maybe,
you know,
even there were groups that stayed together and became associations.
And after energy,
they started focusing on waste and mobility.
So...
It really started to change.
But there are other kind of programs that allow you to do this.
For example,
from this day,
they allow you to progress to putting on solar panels or even this energy neighborhood can turn into an energy community,
a renewable energy community.
And this is important to allow this kind of change so that people can improve,
they can stay engaged.
Really?
have this in some context yes we do but uh yeah energy communities are in a tough position renewable energy communities i mean because at the moment the technological and the regulatory
context are not completely friendly to them yes that's that's that is really super inspiring because uh
Very often people will say,
okay,
first,
I don't know where to start.
I don't know where to start to make my lifestyle more sustainable.
And I don't know if making my lifestyle more sustainable will actually have an impact when I see that my government,
my municipality,
my utility is not doing anything.
Why should I care?
But what you are sharing,
these kind of examples that you're sharing,
we can see that first,
they are actually good.
for the wallet.
So they make sense,
like economically speaking,
which is something that matters.
I mean,
we are still in the middle of a cost of living crisis.
We still have inflation.
Things are still very tough.
We still have like 50 million people affected by energy poverty in Europe.
I mean,
those numbers,
what you said,
between 10 and 25%,
it's huge.
So that actually makes a difference.
Like getting engaged,
getting informed,
actually making some proactive choices make a difference.
Second,
the approach you shared is also good for social purpose because you connect to your neighbors,
you connect a little bit further or deeper with people that actually may only be acquaintances at first,
but then you engage in something like a common goal.
So it builds some meaning somehow.
And that's also extremely powerful for human beings.
We actually need to have common goals to get somewhere.
And then you said that the policy context in Hungary is tough.
We all know who is governing your country at the moment and how skeptical they are with the overall climate conversation.
conservative or ultra conservative governments are actually not understanding that there are so much benefit in in addressing climate change it's so much better for the planet for the economy for the people and so on so what you are showing is saying okay we
can do things at our own level we can be somehow rebels but uh we can be somehow flower powers rebels right you
Yeah,
we can be rebels in many different ways.
And I think this was really nice in energy prospects that we could recognize it,
that there are many different ways we can be rebels.
And sometimes we have to be really rebels at the political level as well,
like Extinction Rebellion.
We really have to take people out to the street or Fridays for Future,
which is...
which we learned is present in many of the countries.
But if we don't want this kind of rebel-ness,
then we can be rebels in our own life as well.
And these ways of becoming rebels is really important as well.
And also financial reasons are very important,
but we did...
surveys with our participants and being part of a positive change,
a positive community level movement is also very important for people and learning,
learning new things because many people reported that they joined an energy citizenship related program because they wanted to learn something new.
They might be working in a post office or driving a bus or whatever.
and this is okay they like doing it but they they like learning new things and this this is also an opportunity to learn learn how to live sustainably learn how to work with people learn how to organize yourself so they're very different kind of skills that in energy citizenship
initiatives you learn and are needed so that's another thing all kinds of people are needed as well and yeah another thing for ourselves you
these ways of being energy citizens,
they help us adapt because we know climate change is here.
The climate is changing and we do need to adapt this snail and slug situation.
I mentioned that's part of it.
And before the podcast,
we talked about the weather and how hot it was in April.
So it is changing.
We haven't had such a hot April in 130 years in Hungary.
So it's like quite...
Quite a big change.
And energy citizenship initiatives also help us adapt to this change and find solutions together.
Because very often our politicians don't do it for us.
They don't want to do it for us.
They feel threatened if they want to do it for us.
But we actually have to learn to live differently,
use energy differently,
exist together differently.
So energy citizenship helps with that as well.
You've been mentioning those projects that you've been working on and they are often international.
You've been involved as a partner or as a leader in some of them.
If there was one,
okay,
let's say two,
if there was one or two good practices that you could transfer to your context now,
what would it be?
Really one of your favorite things that you find difficult to do right now that you would like to see you wave?
Okay,
two of my really favorite and I think inspiring cases as well.
One is from the energy prospects project.
It's a German case.
It's called So Local Energy and it's about helping people put
put up balcony solar solar panels and not just balcony also rooftop but for me the balcony is really inspiring it's not yet possible in hungary but this idea to enable people to do it themselves even
they are now teaching women to do it themselves as well and to
to generate your own electricity independent of the system.
Even in situations,
for example,
they do it for people who cannot pay their bills as well,
and the electricity is turned off.
So you can even borrow these solar balcony systems so that you can survive in these situations as well.
So some kind of resilience is created.
and they are trying to build communities as well to start the change from the bottom up.
This is really inspiring for me,
and I would love to do it.
I heard about a similar case in India,
in places where there is no electricity or only very dirty fossil fuel-based electricity.
They are empowering women to do the same,
and I think I would really like to bring that to Hungary somehow.
Another case is from the UK and it's actually from a different project.
It's called Converge and it was about the idea of joining social and environmental,
connecting social and environmental objectives and making sure that basic needs are met in a way that is environmentally friendly and within the limits of our planet.
And it's called the Converging World.
And it started with a UK community who realized that their carbon footprint as a community and also as individuals is not sustainable.
And they have tried to bring it down to sustainable levels,
but they realized that currently,
without larger infrastructure changes,
they cannot really do it themselves.
So they decided on a voluntary basis to pay for this extra carbon footprint.
put a community fund together.
And from this fund,
they funded wind power,
windmills in India,
in a village where there was no electricity yet.
So they this way connected a rich and a very poor community.
through paying for the extra carbon and creating a sustainable energy generation opportunity in that Indian village.
And I really like this idea of connecting communities this way.
And that is another kind of dream for me that maybe if we could do it,
because even in Hungary,
OK,
we are poorer than the EU average.
and lots of people live in energy poverty,
but we are richer than a lot of other countries.
So we could do that within our country or outside our country as well.
And I think these are really nice ways of connecting people,
connecting social and environmental objectives,
and creating positive change.
So if I have to mention two things,
like right now,
these two things
I would mention.
I really love it.
It's so inspiring because it's totally like sustainable communities without borders.
You really think totally out of the box.
I mean,
it's not only about the community here,
but it's about finding global solutions.
And to achieve that,
as you said at the beginning,
you need to kind of break some status quo and think not only about yourself,
but about the biggest community.
So there are many things that people can do.
And you just...
be part of those conversations.
And maybe if somebody has an extra hedgehog to send to Edina,
that would be really something that would make a difference.
Maybe not coming from too far because that's important for biodiversity to still also nurture the local flora and fauna.
But yeah,
that's really super inspiring.
So Edina,
we are close to wrapping this episode.
what is like your next step what is the next thing on your agenda now
Well,
on a very pragmatic level,
we will be trying to communicate our energy prospect results more widely,
especially these inspiring cases and the way the cases connect social and environmental objectives.
This is like on a very pragmatic level.
So if someone would like to join in this effort,
we are very happy.
So it's great that I can talk about this in this podcast as well.
Of course,
we would like to continue this work,
especially connecting environmental and social objectives.
So we will be looking to go further with this.
And we also have other projects,
one actually very close to energy citizenship,
a way of energy citizenship,
about 1.5 degree lifestyles,
helping people lead these lifestyles and help to catalyze change toward the...
1.5 degree society with all kinds of stakeholders.
So we are carrying on.
discussion we hope to have a bigger impact in hungary as well we'll see how that goes always looking for new partners and alleys in in this effort and yes attracting hedgehogs actually we discovered one uh just two days ago so we were like really happy but if you can send more that's absolutely great we are we are trying to create uh small spots of appropriate
environment for them not to disturb
things in some places in our garden.
So that would be nice.
A sanctuary,
right?
Thank you so much,
Idina.
That was such an inspiring conversation.
And I mean,
thank you so much to our listeners for joining us today as we explore the transformative power of energy citizenship with the support of the Energy
Prospects Project.
That's really amazing to have this project as a sponsor for Energetic.
This is just the beginning.
We'll have two more conversations,
two more episodes sponsored by Energy Prospects.
And we will continue to delve into how European citizens and not only European,
but really international,
every citizen,
every person around the planet really is playing at their own level a crucial role in the energy and climate transition.
So let's not miss those insightful discussions because there is way more.
more to come.
And thank you so much to our very faithful listeners.
You've been listening to 50 episodes and it's only the beginning.
So thank you so much from the bottom of my heart.
It was great to record this podcast with you,
Edina.
Thank you.
Thank you very much for the invitation.
It was really nice to talk about these things.
And believe it or not,
it's an inspiration for me as well,
because I often forget about these things and it's good that you remind me.
So thank you.
And thank you everyone for listening.
I hope we can make more change together.
Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Energetic.
It's been a pleasure diving deep into the world of sustainability and the just energy transition with some of the most forward-thinking mouths out there.
I'm Maureen Canales,
your host from policy consultancy Next Energy Consumer,
and it's been an incredible journey growing this podcast together with you,
our knowledgeable and passionate listeners.
Since 2021,
we've shared countless stories,
insights,
and ideas over more than 40 episodes,
and it's all thanks to your support and enthusiasm.
If you've enjoyed our journey so far and want to help us keep the conversation going,
why not support us on Patreon?
Every bit helps us bring more inspiring content your way.
Check out the show notes for the link.
And hey,
if you're a part of an organization that shares our passion for a sustainable and inclusive energy future,
we're excited to explore sponsorship opportunities with you.
It's a fantastic way to connect with a dedicated audience and make an even bigger impact together.
Shout out to the fantastic
Igor Mikhailovich from Podcast Media Factory for his incredible sound design work,
making every episode a joy to listen to.
If you haven't already,
make sure to subscribe to Energetic on your favorite podcast platform.
And if you think a friend or a colleague could benefit from our episode,
we'd love for you to spread the word.
It helps us grow and keep the energy transition conversation alive.
Sharing is caring.
Follow us on Twitter and LinkedIn to stay engaged and update on all things Energetic.
Thanks once again for lending your ears.
Until next time.
I need your touch,
I need your healing,
I need your touch,
I need your healing,
I need your love.
I need your intention,
I need your love.